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  1. #1
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    X.0 Setup and Dial-in tips?

    Howdy all,

    On my 5 Spot, I just installed a new $RAM drive train replacing my XTR components and so far (on the stand and the street) I have found the shifting only so-so. It hits the mark more or less but not as snappy or as quiet as the XTR R-der did. Every so-often during a shift to the 3rd largest cog it may hop up to the 2nd largest cog for 1/2 a rotation and settle back in place. It only seems to happen there, and not every time. Other than that it's tends to "Clack!" much louder when going from cog to cog, and I can feel the chain jump in the pedals. With the XTR there were times it shifted so smoothly and quietly I couldn't tell it actually made the transition. I've read so many raves about the X-series I though it would be worth a bout of upgradeitis...but so far it's prettier, but not better.

    My question is, could anyone supply some tips on how to crispen-up the REAR shifting?

    Details:
    former Drive train: '03 XTR R-der non RR, '03 XTR F-der, '03 XTR cogset, '03 XTR Crank set (triple), '03 XTR Rapid Fire triggers
    Current Drive train: '03 XTR cogset & F-der, $RAM X.0 R-der, X.9 triggers, pc69 chain, '04 XT crank set (dual ring) E-13 DRS chain guide & bash ring (trimmed to 5-7/8"), New Der hanger JIC. Obviously, new cables and rear der housing loop.

    Items of note. The E13 DRS is slightly thinner than the XT/XTR BB spacer, but only slightly so my front chain position is inboard by 1.5mm~2mm. The rear shifting is the same w/ or w/o the chain flowing through the DRS. I can't seem to get the upper jockey pulley but so close(10-12mm?) . That's somewhat an improvement though b/c I had trouble keeping the XTR pulley off the larger cogs. Anyway the X.0 instructions recommend 6mm.

    My initial thoughts on the design: I like the idea of the thumb controlling all aspects of the shifting. The X.9 pods seem sturdier than the XTR pods but also heavier (I don't care about the weight). The XTR pod levers always bent over time and began to rub when shifting. The power link on the chain is a great idea. I wish I had started with this chain long ago. The X.0 R-der is really well made. I like the fixed position of the main parallelogram which eliminates the chance of der slap. I did not get der-slap with my first XTR Rder, but the replacement one did, until the LBS tweaked the internal spring and most of it went away. The X.0 use of allen bolts on the adjusters is a great example of "why the hell didn't somebody do this a looooong time ago" thing. The rebuild-ability of the X.0 is another great idea.

    I never had a problem adjusting or keeping the adjustment on my XTR setup. It always shifted quite well. I shift quite a lot, and want a quiet drive train b/c sometimes a sneak attack is the only way I can pass my riding buddies.

    TIA!
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    Last edited by Bikezilla; 07-06-2004 at 08:41 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Howdy all,

    On my 5 Spot, I just installed a new $RAM drive train replacing my XTR components and so far (on the stand and the street) I have found the shifting only so-so. It hits the mark more or less but not as snappy or as quiet as the XTR R-der did. Every so-often during a shift to the 3rd largest cog it may hop up to the 2nd largest cog for 1/2 a rotation and settle back in place. It only seems to happen there, and not every time. Other than that it's tends to "Clack!" much louder when going from cog to cog, and I can feel the chain jump in the pedals. With the XTR there were times it shifted so smoothly and quietly I couldn't tell it actually made the transition. I've read so many raves about the X-series I though it would be worth a bout of upgradeitis...but so far it's prettier, but not better.

    My question is, could anyone supply some tips on how to crispen-up the REAR shifting?

    Details:
    former Drive train: '03 XTR R-der non RR, '03 XTR F-der, '03 XTR cogset, '03 XTR Crank set (triple), '03 XTR Rapid Fire triggers
    Current Drive train: '03 XTR cogset & F-der, $RAM X.0 R-der, X.9 triggers, pc69 chain, '04 XT crank set (dual ring) E-13 DRS chain guide & bash ring (trimmed to 5-7/8"), New Der hanger JIC. Obviously, new cables and rear der housing loop.

    Items of note. The E13 DRS is slightly thinner than the XT/XTR BB spacer, but only slightly so my front chain position is inboard by 1.5mm~2mm. The rear shifting is the same w/ or w/o the chain flowing through the DRS. I can't seem to get the upper jockey pulley but so close(10-12mm?) . That's somewhat an improvement though b/c I had trouble keeping the XTR pulley off the larger cogs. Anyway the X.0 instructions recommend 6mm.

    My initial thoughts on the design: I like the idea of the thumb controlling all aspects of the shifting. The X.9 pods seem sturdier than the XTR pods but also heavier (I don't care about the weight). The XTR pod levers always bent over time and began to rub when shifting. The power link on the chain is a great idea. I wish I had started with this chain long ago. The X.0 R-der is really well made. I like the fixed position of the main parallelogram which eliminates the chance of der slap. I did not get der-slap with my first XTR Rder, but the replacement one did, until the LBS tweaked the internal spring and most of it went away. The X.0 use of allen bolts on the adjusters is a great example of "why the hell didn't somebody do this a looooong time ago" thing. The rebuild-ability of the X.0 is another great idea.

    I never had a problem adjusting or keeping the adjustment on my XTR setup. It always shifted quite well. I shift quite a lot, and want a quiet drive train b/c sometimes a sneak attack is the only way I can pass my riding buddies.

    TIA!
    Must be the Turner it's mounted to! When I installed mine all I had to do was adjust the high and low adjustments (your right about the allen heads - why wasn't this done a long time ago) and it was ready to ride. Hope you get it resolved as the shifting on mine is excellent.
    Nothing to see here.

  3. #3
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    Made a similar change...xtr dual control -> XO/X9 triggers...

    I have the opposite reaction. wow. much better shifting w/ the XO/X9 trigger setup. As for the "clack" between shifts, I actually like it....feels like positive engagement. This is probably due to the stronger spring. All my shifts are spot on. Make sure you check your the B screw (that is what it is called on the Shimano derailleur at least)....follow the instructions to make sure the derailleur pulley is the correct distance from the cassette. Hope that helps.

  4. #4
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    you'll get there

    I found that the XO stuff took a little longer to get dialed in than my XT stuff. Not sure if XO is more finiky about being perfectly adjusted, or if it was just operator error on install.

    The good news is that once I got things working well, I have not had to touch them again (going on about 6 months now).

    Once you get the XO system dialed I think you will find it as good or better than the Shimano stuff.

    I would suggest checking your b-tension screw and then just playing with the cable tensioners on the shift pods. You get more adjustment range on the XO shift pod tensioners than you do on XT triggers so you can do a lot just by changing these.

    Keep in mind that I am using the XO twisters - the SRAM triggers may be a little different as far as adjustment goes.

  5. #5
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    Mine feels excellent

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Howdy all,

    On my 5 Spot, I just installed a new $RAM drive train replacing my XTR components and so far (on the stand and the street) I have found the shifting only so-so. It hits the mark more or less but not as snappy or as quiet as the XTR R-der did. Every so-often during a shift to the 3rd largest cog it may hop up to the 2nd largest cog for 1/2 a rotation and settle back in place. It only seems to happen there, and not every time. Other than that it's tends to "Clack!" much louder when going from cog to cog, and I can feel the chain jump in the pedals. With the XTR there were times it shifted so smoothly and quietly I couldn't tell it actually made the transition. I've read so many raves about the X-series I though it would be worth a bout of upgradeitis...but so far it's prettier, but not better.

    My question is, could anyone supply some tips on how to crispen-up the REAR shifting?

    Details:
    former Drive train: '03 XTR R-der non RR, '03 XTR F-der, '03 XTR cogset, '03 XTR Crank set (triple), '03 XTR Rapid Fire triggers
    Current Drive train: '03 XTR cogset & F-der, $RAM X.0 R-der, X.9 triggers, pc69 chain, '04 XT crank set (dual ring) E-13 DRS chain guide & bash ring (trimmed to 5-7/8"), New Der hanger JIC. Obviously, new cables and rear der housing loop.

    Items of note. The E13 DRS is slightly thinner than the XT/XTR BB spacer, but only slightly so my front chain position is inboard by 1.5mm~2mm. The rear shifting is the same w/ or w/o the chain flowing through the DRS. I can't seem to get the upper jockey pulley but so close(10-12mm?) . That's somewhat an improvement though b/c I had trouble keeping the XTR pulley off the larger cogs. Anyway the X.0 instructions recommend 6mm.

    My initial thoughts on the design: I like the idea of the thumb controlling all aspects of the shifting. The X.9 pods seem sturdier than the XTR pods but also heavier (I don't care about the weight). The XTR pod levers always bent over time and began to rub when shifting. The power link on the chain is a great idea. I wish I had started with this chain long ago. The X.0 R-der is really well made. I like the fixed position of the main parallelogram which eliminates the chance of der slap. I did not get der-slap with my first XTR Rder, but the replacement one did, until the LBS tweaked the internal spring and most of it went away. The X.0 use of allen bolts on the adjusters is a great example of "why the hell didn't somebody do this a looooong time ago" thing. The rebuild-ability of the X.0 is another great idea.

    I never had a problem adjusting or keeping the adjustment on my XTR setup. It always shifted quite well. I shift quite a lot, and want a quiet drive train b/c sometimes a sneak attack is the only way I can pass my riding buddies.

    TIA!
    The few things you need to be sure of, the rear short piece of housing is not too short, from your picture it is hard to tell from the side view. I have tried a bunch of different length pieces and my picture shows what I came up with being about the best length I have come up with yet. Then also be sure there is not to big a loop at the shifter to frame and seat tube area piece also. Finally be sure there is not even the slightest bend in the cable anywhere. I cant get new Shimano XTR to fee as good as the SRAM triggers and X-o derailleur set up. I also run a PC-99 hollow chain, very snappy shifting from this chain as is the case from an XTR chain.
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  6. #6
    DGC
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    also

    Quote Originally Posted by DGC
    The few things you need to be sure of, the rear short piece of housing is not too short, from your picture it is hard to tell from the side view. I have tried a bunch of different length pieces and my picture shows what I came up with being about the best length I have come up with yet. Then also be sure there is not to big a loop at the shifter to frame and seat tube area piece also. Finally be sure there is not even the slightest bend in the cable anywhere. I cant get new Shimano XTR to fee as good as the SRAM triggers and X-o derailleur set up. I also run a PC-99 hollow chain, very snappy shifting from this chain as is the case from an XTR chain.
    Also, I found my chain tensioner takes away shifting performance a bit more on the SRAM set up that it did on the Shimano set up. I only run it when really neccessary.

  7. #7
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    Sum-sum-summertime

    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    Must be the Turner it's mounted to! When I installed mine all I had to do was adjust the high and low adjustments (your right about the allen heads - why wasn't this done a long time ago) and it was ready to ride. Hope you get it resolved as the shifting on mine is excellent.
    Hells bells! When is sombody going to fix the screen door? These dammed Mo'-flies keep gettin' in!

    Getting it to work didn't take any more effort than you described. Getting it to shine seems to be another matter entirely. At first cut, I have an LX, XT and an XTR der that currently shift smoother. I figure I'll just have to learn the nuances of this particular style der.

    Cheers!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  8. #8
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    Check your cable seal

    'Zilla,

    It looks like the cable seal ( I assume that's what I am seeing) is actually making contact with the "carbon" cable guide on the derailleur. This can certainly mess up the shifting and might be at least partially responsible for your shifting problems. I would definitely remove it as a possible quick fix. Since the interference appears to affect only the largest three cogs, it makes sense that it is the cause of your dissapointing 3-2 shift issues.

    -Joe

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeman
    'Zilla,

    It looks like the cable seal ( I assume that's what I am seeing) is actually making contact with the "carbon" cable guide on the derailleur... Since the interference appears to affect only the largest three cogs, it makes sense that it is the cause of your dissapointing 3-2 shift issues.

    -Joe
    Good suggestion. I had cut it in half from the standard size. I'll check for clearance and if necessary bring it down to 1/4 or remove it entirely. It could be part of the problem along with the final housing loop and the b-tension...
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  10. #10
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    pretty sure it is the seal

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Good suggestion. I had cut it in half from the standard size. I'll check for clearance and if necessary bring it down to 1/4 or remove it entirely. It could be part of the problem along with the final housing loop and the b-tension...
    I really think that seal is the root of your problem. I was troubled with poor shifting and a constant need of adjustment on my last bike which used a SRAM 9.0 setup. The cause turned out to be 1/4 inch long section of the teflon lining which coats my Gore cables. It had broken free from the rest of the lining and slid down to the portion of the cable which slides along the carbon guide. I cut the offending liner off and my shifting returned to perfection. Note: I didn't touch the adjusters or even release the cable when I did my fix. All I did was shift to the smallest cog and cut off the 1/4 inch long loose section of the liner. I guess what I am saying is that if my small liner can cause noticible shifting problems than the much larger diameter cable seal can certainly cause a similar problem.

    Personally I would ditch the seal all together if your terrain makes this possible. On my current ride I tried to use the little yellow seals that came with my Gore cables (with an X9 derailleur) and they also caused the same kind of problems you are describing. I ended up not using them and have had no problems for the last couple of years.

    -Joe

    By the way, your final housing loop looks OK to me but it is hard to tell from the picture. Do make sure that the housing is fully seated within the ferrule. If it isn't then the housing is definitely too short.

    Your B tension screw (pretty sure SRAM calls it something else) might need some adjusting but that whould have the greatest impact on the largest cog (ie too close and the cog and rear derailleur will bind together). If you have the derailleur adjusted too far from the cogs it will slow down the shifting from cog to cog and might explain why the overall shifting isn't as quick as you are used to.
    Last edited by Joeman; 07-06-2004 at 02:46 PM. Reason: more info

  11. #11
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    Thanks Joe and all,

    I cut down the seal and it now does not touch the carbon cable guide in any gear. I readjusted my B-tension and got it to the recommended 6mm with the chain on. It seems to shift well enough...not an epiphanny (sp?) but it goes to the cog requested. What it needs now is some trail time for a final assessment.

    Another observation is that the thumb levers require much more pressure than what I'm used to on the XTR setup. On my other bike I have an XT setup and it feels more like that. I have grown used to the light touch but I'm quite sure I'll get used to the $RAM feel as well.

    Part of the intermittent jump-up when going from the third to the second largest cogs is the lever input. It just seems at a point where I need to push harder to make the shift but sometimes go too far and start the chain into the first cog. I just have to ride the darned thing...something I haven't yet had time for.

    The final housing loop is tightly secured between the two last stops. I might try a slightly longer loop just to see if it makes a difference.

    The shifting seems the same w/ and w/o the chain tensioner...but the Der Pullies seem louder in the largest two cogs with the guide engaged.

    One last observation, the der dosen't seemt to like being backpedaled much. not only will it jump down a cog but it will sometimes drop the chain off the pulley cage...that was on the workstand though...like I said I need some trail time.

    Cheers Gears and Beers!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  12. #12
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    XO info

    I don't know how your cables are routed but I had some of that occilating between gears 2 and 3 or 3 and 4 (can't remember which) I called Casey at Turner about the reccomended cable routing due to the cables rubbing through the paint at the welds when routing the cables through the gusset and he told me they run the rear derailure housing and rear brake hose on the outside of the gusset, doing that solved the rubbing problem (once I put protective tape on the gusset which is easier and cleaner than when you try to protect the paint with the other routing option) it also cleaned up the shifting. I use the twist shifters and havn't had any other problems with shifting.

  13. #13
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    I've found the Sr@m stuff takes a bit of adj. at first to get it dialed in and then it stays that way, kind of the opposite of Shim. The X.O requires less cable tension so make sure the cable is not too tight which could be causing the chain to rub on the next biggest cog, it also requires a bigger gap with the b-tension adjustment. If you adj.'d the b-tension and the cable seal thingie is out of the way, then I would say check your cable tension next. You should notice how more precise and positive the shifts are, not as light action as Shim., but more precise.

  14. #14
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    Backpedaling

    I went from an XT setup to X.9 with grip shifters when going from my Superlight to my 5-Spot. The backpedaling on the $ram is much better. The shifting is also much better. It did take me some time to get the cable tension correct before shifting was perfect, but I am there.
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  15. #15
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    Some things that have worked. Remove chain. Set the high and low screws. Stand behind bike and make sure pulleys line up with largest and smallest cogs when against stops (you'll have to push deraulleur over by hand to check alignment to largest cog). Still no chain, shift to middle cog. Stand behind bike and see how pulley lines up to middle cog. Adjust cable tension until it is centered to cog. I find the chain jumping cogs you speak of is usually cable tension. This initial setting without chain has worked well. As mentioned before, too small/large cable length from last stop to derailleur can cause shift problems. Also, with bike on stand suspension is fully extended so that is as tight as cables will get so don't have too much cable length as it will become excessive when suspension is compressed. On the backpedaling: I went to a 10 speed chain. The only difference I could see in width was the width of the rivets, plates appear to be same distance. I had noticed when backpedaling very slowly that the rivets on the chain would catch on the cog. This would lift the chain for a instant and then it would drop again. 10 speed chain seems to function as well as 9 speed without any rivets hitting cogs. I've used X.0 with X.9s and twist shifter and find performance flawless with system needing very little adjustment once set up. Good luck.

  16. #16
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    All is well...

    Quote Originally Posted by jennasdad
    Some things that have worked. Remove chain. Set the high and low screws. Stand behind bike and make sure pulleys line up with largest and smallest cogs when against stops (you'll have to push deraulleur over by hand to check alignment to largest cog). Still no chain, shift to middle cog. Stand behind bike and see how pulley lines up to middle cog. Adjust cable tension until it is centered to cog. I find the chain jumping cogs you speak of is usually cable tension. This initial setting without chain has worked well. As mentioned before, too small/large cable length from last stop to derailleur can cause shift problems. Also, with bike on stand suspension is fully extended so that is as tight as cables will get so don't have too much cable length as it will become excessive when suspension is compressed. On the backpedaling: I went to a 10 speed chain. The only difference I could see in width was the width of the rivets, plates appear to be same distance. I had noticed when backpedaling very slowly that the rivets on the chain would catch on the cog. This would lift the chain for a instant and then it would drop again. 10 speed chain seems to function as well as 9 speed without any rivets hitting cogs. I've used X.0 with X.9s and twist shifter and find performance flawless with system needing very little adjustment once set up. Good luck.
    Thanks for the tips. I took it out for it's maiden voyage today...sharp as a tack.

    I was totally anal about pulley alignment when mounting the Rder. Checking H&L cogs right down to the $RAM recommendation of dead-center for the 32 cog and ever-so-slightly right of center on the 11 cog. Checked and rechecked w/ and w/o the chain. The Final loop is also on spec w/ the $RAM instructions.

    My thoughts on the operation:
    -It grabbed every cog when requested. No lag, no chatter. (So did my XTR)
    -It's a tad bit noiser than the XTR but probably just as smooth.
    -Setup is more or less the same. Adjustment is definately better b/c it's easier to get at the controls, and you can use an allen wrench. The Barrel adjuster is better too.
    -It definately requires more input force than the XTR. No big deal. Just different.
    -I lost count how many times I tried to drop a cog with my index finger...DUH! Is relearning is going to be like going to dual control? Actually the thumb release makes much more sense.

    While grinding about I think I discovered the ESP feature $RAM is on about. The levers are larger and I accidentally clicked off a gear several times with the web of my thumb /index finger. Each occurance was strangely appropriate for the upcoming terrain.
    Okay So I have to adjust my shifter position a bit.

    The DRS quietly purred along. I was waaaay too tired to tell if it really added much friction.

    Overall I think I'm going to like this setup. It seems less finicky than the XTR even if it requires more of a gorilla grip.

    Cheers all and thanks for the tips!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  17. #17
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Hells bells! When is sombody going to fix the screen door? These dammed Mo'-flies keep gettin' in!

    Getting it to work didn't take any more effort than you described. Getting it to shine seems to be another matter entirely. At first cut, I have an LX, XT and an XTR der that currently shift smoother. I figure I'll just have to learn the nuances of this particular style der.

    Cheers!
    BZ - Went through somthing similar setting up my new frame (not a Turner) at the LBS yesterday. We swapped everything over but the shifting was not nearly as good as it was on the old frame (needed lots of pressure at the lever and shifting was slower. Checked everything including the frame alignment. In the end it was the cable housing from the last frame stop to the derailleur was too stiff (Avid flak jackets). When we changed it to a cheap piece of black housing averything fell into place.

    This may not be your problem but worth a look.
    Nothing to see here.

  18. #18
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    Thanks for the feedback

    Hey 'Zilla thanks for the feedback. I am currently sitting on an X.9 rear der.and X.9 trigger shifters and I'm waiting on the brake levers to come in to mount the system up. I'm riding a 2002 XTR rear w/XT shifters so we'll see how the new setup will compare.
    Ride to live, Live to ride.........

    Kevin

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