Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    El Castigador and I hit up pipeline trail this weekend. It's got a 1,700' climb, in just over 4 miles, followed by a similar descent which takes about 5 miles. It's a hard climb and a kick ass downhill with fast singletrack, berms and jumps.

    this is not my video but gives a feel for the ride.


    He's got a brand new, pimped out XL Czar, and I've got a Flux.

    Mine has a 140 Mil talas up front, 2.4" vigilantes, big hope brakes and a dropper post.

    He has a 120 mil pike, 2.4 trail kings, big hope brakes and a dropper post.

    We rode each others bike back to back and the differnce was amazing.

    The Czar rolls WAY faster - on flats, on climbs and descents.

    The Flux feels way cushier and more aggressive for the downhill.

    Looking forward to a longer ride on the Czar to get a feel for it.

    Hoping El Castigador can weigh in with his opinion...


    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend-bikes.jpg
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  2. #2
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    Well, the fast bike has less travel, steeper geometry and faster rolling tires. Are you implying wheel size is just one piece of the puzzle in defining a bike…?
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

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    Sweet! Nice, great info.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Well, the fast bike has less travel, steeper geometry and faster rolling tires. Are you implying wheel size is just one piece of the puzzle in defining a bike…?
    Not implying anything. more than a few people have openly asked on the turner forum which way they should go in picking one over the other. I'm just throwing out some general impressions.

    both bikes were built with an eye towards the aggressive side of trail riding - so they're a good match to compare/contrast.
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    Great feedback ihb, and I'm not at all surprised the Czar rolls faster. That was my experience overall when I moved from a 26er to a 29er.

    What about negotiating tight switchbacks and railing fast turns? Did one bike shine more than the other? These are a couple areas that I feel I have more of a challenge on a 29er.

    For me, the 29er is FAST, but it takes more skill/work to ride it well…but again, that's just me

    All that said, I'm getting a Flux next!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonE5 View Post
    Great feedback ihb, and I'm not at all surprised the Czar rolls faster. That was my experience overall when I moved from a 26er to a 29er.

    What about negotiating tight switchbacks and railing fast turns? Did one bike shine more than the other? These are a couple areas that I feel I have more of a challenge on a 29er.

    For me, the 29er is FAST, but it takes more skill/work to ride it well…but again, that's just me

    All that said, I'm getting a Flux next!
    I don't have enought time on the Czar to speak to that.

    My impression right now is the Czar is faster - but the Flux is more fun. For the type of riding I like to do.

    The Czar was pulling away from me, just coasting. Making me have to work harder to keep up. But the Flux is much more plush and slack.

    I'm hoping to ride with El C again soon and do another swap.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Hoping El Castigador can weigh in with his opinion...


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    Bawls deep in schoolwork at the moment...will respond as soon as I can.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    Bawls deep in schoolwork at the moment...will respond as soon as I can.
    Dude, you work for the government. I think it's some minorities birthday today - call in sick.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Dude, you work for the government. I think it's some minorities birthday today - call in sick.
    You taxpayers are actually getting your money's worth out of me for a change.

  10. #10
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    Bawls deep in schoolwork at the moment...will respond as soon as I can.
    Alrighty...that was a long day; getting smart is hard for a dumb guy.

    Although we didn't swap bikes long enough to get a really good sense of the differences between the Czar and the Flux 3.0, a couple of things stood out immediately:

    1. The Flux's ETT feels significantly longer than the Czar's, and we had identical stems (although mine's setup at -10 degrees and IHB's is at 0 degrees, so if anything that should make the Czar feel a little longer, relative to it's ETT measurement, I reckon). Not sure how the numbers compare on the geometry page, but suffice it to say the Flux just feels bigger.

    2. 27.5" wheels natively feel a hell of more "playful" than 29" wheels (no sh1t, you're probably saying), but still maintain momentum noticeably better than 26" wheels. The fact that IHB had a hard time keeping up probably had more to do with:

    a. the carbon wheels on my Czar are STUPID stiff, and consequently translate more effort directly into forward momentum

    b. IHB's a fatass

    c. I'm way manlier than he is

    Had all things been equal between our setups, I'm sure the difference (which wasn't really as significant as IHB makes it sound) would have been even smaller.

    The gap between us on the descent probably had more to do with the fact that I've ridden that trail about a dozen times in the past month than the bike.

    We really need to cross-deck again and log a few more miles (both up and down) to provide a better report for you Homers.

    I will say that the Czar has very pleasantly surprised me with how nimble it feels edge to edge, which was something I was really concerned about with making the jump from 26er to 29er. The extent of my pre-Czar 29er experience consisted mostly of parking lot test rides on mid-spec hardtails. I did jump on 30+ pound Ellsworth Evolve back in Virginia for about a mile, and really enjoyed it. The Czar has a lot less of the gyroscope wheel effect than I experienced on the Evolve, probably again due to the lighter wheels.

    Bottom line, stoked I got the Czar, but really think I would dig a Flux or Burner to replace my Spot if the time ever comes; the 27.5 wheel really does seem to take some of the best from both of the other wheel sizes, and of course DT's secret sauce is DEFINITELY in both of these rigs.

    A more thorough report to follow next ride, with photos and vid to boot.

  11. #11
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    we definitely need to do more back to back comparisons - and strava that chit so we can see time differences.

    All scientific, like.
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    we definitely need to do more back to back comparisons - and strava that chit so we can see time differences.

    All scientific, like.
    Next weekend? Got family in town this weekend...how about a little undocumented trail interdiction??

  13. #13
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    Please leave racism out of your comments. It hurts MY feelings.

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    Thanks - I just wanted to get it off my chest - that is all

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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack7782 View Post
    Please leave racism out of your comments. It hurts MY feelings.
    It's ok; the trails are conservative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack7782 View Post
    Thanks - I just wanted to get it off my chest - that is all
    you're being overly sensitive.

    The word minority is not denigrating and it applies to more than race. "Minority" can be used to describe people of a certain socio/economic status, certain religions, sexes, etc.

    I'm merely calling out the governments penchant for taking PTO days for just about anything - Harvey Milk day, "indigenous peoples day" etc.

    And since El Castigator is one such public sector employee - he deserves it!
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  17. #17
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post

    And since El Castigator is one such public sector employee - he deserves it!
    I find it offensive when you call me a government employee...I like to think of what I do as liberating the tax dollars of my countrymen from the government colossus.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    I find it offensive when you call me a government employee...I like to think of what I do as liberating the tax dollars of my countrymen from the government colossus.
    Shouldn't you be observing Vanuatu's Independence Day today, or something?
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Shouldn't you be observing Vanuatu's Independence Day today, or something?
    Why do you think I'm home ;-)

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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I'm merely calling out the governments penchant for taking PTO days for just about anything - Harvey Milk day, "indigenous peoples day" etc.
    As a proud El Salvadoreño, I feel if anything my people are UNDER represented in the anthology of federal holidays...Caesar Chavez has a holiday, but Joaquín Villalobos doesn't? Where's the justice in that??

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    As a proud El Salvadoreño, I feel if anything my people are UNDER represented in the anthology of federal holidays...Caesar Chavez has a holiday, but Joaquín Villalobos doesn't? Where's the justice in that??
    Well I'm a German Jew and I hate myself!
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Well I'm a German Jew and I hate myself!
    Well, I'm Polish AND German AND Norwegian. How the fock did that ever happen?!

    Returning now to your regularly scheduled programming............

    The Flux cannot possibly compare favorably to the Czar, since it is not made of carbon.

    Nothing left to discuss.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  23. #23
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo View Post
    The Flux cannot possibly compare favorably to the Czar, since it is not made of carbon.

    Nothing left to discuss.
    Alright, everyone CALM DOWN! There's no room in this thread for that kind of hate speech! :-D

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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    You know, carbon is black and bauxite is white. This thread was racist from the get-go!
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  25. #25
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    Interesting to me (well the 2 Turner comparison, not so much the race/ethnicity disclosures!) What I'm taking from it is that there are tangible differences, but not massive ones. So, as a Czar owner I'd be better going for a Burner than Flux for a fun bike...as it would accentuate the differences. Just what I wanted to hear!

    I did jump on 30+ pound Ellsworth Evolve back in Virginia for about a mile, and really enjoyed it.
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  26. #26
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    I've just bought a flux and have been riding my czar for nearly a year. Just taking my flux to the Alps this week. No contest the Czar feels more effortless to pedal. The flux however still rides in with that DW snap - but is just a bit harder to keep going at full lick.

  27. #27
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    New Flux vs 10 flux (tweaked)

    So how different is the 27.5 flux from the DW 26" version?

    I've got a large 2010 DW flux that I have tinkered with to make it more trail orientated and suitable for the rock garden descents where I ride. It has a 140 XF velvet fork, 1 degree angleset, pushed RP23 with a more downhill orientated tune to match the higher speeds and a dropper post. Front tire is a Spec butcher 2.3. Head angle is a touch over 67 and it's a little ripper now on the downs with no noticeable issues on the ups. Only downsides are the seat angle that dropped to ~72, but I tweaked my seat forward a notch to compensate and the reach which dropped to 417, so the shortest stem I feel comfortable with out of the saddle is 80mm. Originally I thought the 140 fork and the subsequent stack height would be too tall vs the 120mm fork I had on it previously and was going to reduce the travel. However after riding it I changed my mind - I run greater sag, the stem slammed and I have a long 33' inseam and proportionally shorter arms in ratio to my torso, so the slightly higher stack vs seat height is about perfect. Other people's body fit may differ... I can now weight the front more aggressively on the downs without feeling too far forward.

    here's a photo of current setup

    I'm curious how different the new flux would be vs my version and I have no way to demo. Any thoughts?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    So how different is the 27.5 flux from the DW 26" version?

    I've got a large 2010 DW flux that I have tinkered with to make it more trail orientated and suitable for the rock garden descents where I ride. It has a 140 XF velvet fork, 1 degree angleset, pushed RP23 with a more downhill orientated tune to match the higher speeds and a dropper post. Front tire is a Spec butcher 2.3. Head angle is a touch over 67 and it's a little ripper now on the downs with no noticeable issues on the ups. Only downsides are the seat angle that dropped to ~72, but I tweaked my seat forward a notch to compensate and the reach which dropped to 417, so the shortest stem I feel comfortable with out of the saddle is 80mm. Originally I thought the 140 fork and the subsequent stack height would be too tall vs the 120mm fork I had on it previously and was going to reduce the travel. However after riding it I changed my mind - I run greater sag, the stem slammed and I have a long 33' inseam and proportionally shorter arms in ratio to my torso, so the slightly higher stack vs seat height is about perfect. Other people's body fit may differ... I can now weight the front more aggressively on the downs without feeling too far forward.

    here's a photo of current setup

    I'm curious how different the new flux would be vs my version and I have no way to demo. Any thoughts?
    The new flux is very differnt.

    Longer, lower, slacker, more travel and bigger wheels. You'll dig it.
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  29. #29
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    Any thoughts?
    Man, I loved my 2010 Flux! I ran mine with a 120mm fork, which seemed contribute to its eventual demise (cracked the weld on the gusset at the base of the seat tube), although that chain of events triggered my Czar project, so can't maintain TOO much sorrow :-)

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    Man, I loved my 2010 Flux! I ran mine with a 120mm fork, which seemed contribute to its eventual demise (cracked the weld on the gusset at the base of the seat tube), although that chain of events triggered my Czar project, so can't maintain TOO much sorrow :-)
    Sorry to hear your flux died. So far all good over-forking mine, I weigh ~ 165lbs RTR so hopefully I'm not stressing it out too much.

    So how would you compare the new flux vs your old 2010?

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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    Sorry to hear your flux died. So far all good over-forking mine, I weigh ~ 165lbs RTR so hopefully I'm not stressing it out too much.

    So how would you compare the new flux vs your old 2010?
    You'll probably fare much better than I did at your weight with regard to frame longevity...I'm a giant fat ass at 215lbs.

    The new Flux feels very similar to my 2012 5 Spot, but just rolls a helluva lot better. Haven't really looked at the geo numbers to do a 5 Spot-Flux3.0 comparison, but is wafer they're fairly close.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    You'll probably fare much better than I did at your weight with regard to frame longevity...
    One of the few benefits of being skinny - makes up for getting passed on the flats by the big boys pushing big gears, losing the drinking games and having to run around in the shower to get wet.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    Sorry to hear your flux died. So far all good over-forking mine, I weigh ~ 165lbs RTR so hopefully I'm not stressing it out too much.

    So how would you compare the new flux vs your old 2010?
    I had a 2009 flux for a long time and found I was riding it more than my 6" travel bike. It could really take some abuse. I had it built with a 120 mil fork, 2.4" tires and dropper post. I had a custom Push rear shock with the DH tune - which was extra plush.

    I built up the Flux 3.0 to fit in between my 2009 flux and my 6" travel foes.

    The new flux is really perfect for what I was looking for. It can handle some serious abuse - and still climb great.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I had a 2009 flux for a long time and found I was riding it more than my 6" travel bike. It could really take some abuse. I had it built with a 120 mil fork, 2.4" tires and dropper post. I had a custom Push rear shock with the DH tune - which was extra plush.

    I built up the Flux 3.0 to fit in between my 2009 flux and my 6" travel foes.

    The new flux is really perfect for what I was looking for. It can handle some serious abuse - and still climb great.
    Do you ride the 6" travel bike anymore or is it all flux time?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh tracks View Post
    Do you ride the 6" travel bike anymore or is it all flux time?
    Got rid of the 6" bike. My only regret is not having a backup bike. But I'm working on that.

    The Flux 3.0 can handle a WIDE variety of trails. I took mine to Moab and rode the whole enchilada on it - and I use it on long XC rides here in the bay area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Got rid of the 6" bike. My only regret is not having a backup bike. But I'm working on that.

    The Flux 3.0 can handle a WIDE variety of trails. I took mine to Moab and rode the whole enchilada on it - and I use it on long XC rides here in the bay area.
    Cool - new Flux sounds like an awesome bike

  37. #37
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Got rid of the 6" bike. My only regret is not having a backup bike. But I'm working on that.
    Do tell.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    Do tell.
    steve potts 29'er. but that's a long term plan.
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    IHB and El C -

    Any updates on your experiment?

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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by nmadse1 View Post
    IHB and El C -

    Any updates on your experiment?
    We had plans for a reunion this weekend, but illness conspired against us. Experiment: temporarily postponed.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    We had plans for a reunion this weekend, but illness conspired against us. Experiment: temporarily postponed.
    next weekend?

    I want to see you climb bbq terrace with that new gearing.
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    next weekend?

    I want to see you climb bbq terrace with that new gearing.
    We're swapping bikes ritard. That means you're climbing BBQ terrace with that new gearing.

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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

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    this thread is one reason I went Flux over Czar. Others:
    1) I wanted "one bike to rule them all"
    2) I am not a XC racer
    3) This is probably 100% FUD but in my gut, Aluminum will outlast Carbon and I'll be talking about this one like I talk about my 97 Stumpy in 20 years . . . probably still riding it.
    1997 Stumpy M2 Comp
    2014 Turner Flux, XT

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    The 26" DW Flux has served me well, had a lot of fun on that bike and it was a tough decision to go with the Czar over the new Flux. I will certainly demo a new Flux when there is an opportunity but how can you make a wrong choice between these two? Take your pick, win and win.

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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by etanc View Post
    The 26" DW Flux has served me well, had a lot of fun on that bike and it was a tough decision to go with the Czar over the new Flux. I will certainly demo a new Flux when there is an opportunity but how can you make a wrong choice between these two? Take your pick, win and win.
    I was going to say the same thing...I absolutely loved my 26" DW Flux as well, and still love my DW 5 Spot...I really wanted an XC rig to replace my broken Flux, so I went Czar...and the fact that it's so capable a descender is just icing on the cake; the Flux 3.0 would have been too much overlap with the 5 Spot, which I have no intention of getting rid of anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    next weekend?

    I want to see you climb bbq terrace with that new gearing.
    I must say I am disappointed in the number of updates to this thread. Get out there and ride guys!! We are depending on you!


  48. #48
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    I must say I am disappointed in the number of updates to this thread. Get out there and ride guys!! We are depending on you!

    Not to point fingers or anything, but it's IHB's fault.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    Not to point fingers or anything, but it's IHB's fault.
    Not to point fingers or anything -but I drove 2 hours to go ride with El Casitgaror and he has yet to return the favor.
    Last edited by iheartbicycles; 10-27-2014 at 06:15 AM.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  50. #50
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Not to point fingers or anything -but I drove 2 hours to go ride with El Casitgaror and he has yet to return the favor.
    Meet me halfway? C'mon son, let's ride the redwoods!

  51. #51
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    So any update guys?!
    When trails gets tougher, Just stand up and deliver.

  52. #52
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullit_cn View Post
    So any update guys?!
    We had a ride scheduled for tomorrow, but I had to cancel. Hoping to hook up before Thanksgiving for a proper ride.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Castigador View Post
    We had a ride scheduled for tomorrow, but I had to cancel. Hoping to hook up before Thanksgiving for a proper ride.
    LOL! I guess, it is IHB fault...Again!!! :-D
    When trails gets tougher, Just stand up and deliver.

  54. #54
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    Very Interesting riding a Czar and a Flux back to back this weekend

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullit_cn View Post
    LOL! I guess, it is IHB fault...Again!!! :-D
    Even when it's not, it is.

  55. #55
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    thats the price of being offline,
    You'll get all the blame
    When trails gets tougher, Just stand up and deliver.

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