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  1. #1
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    Turner chain drop/suck revisted

    Been a while since I've covered this topic, but while I'm in a complaining mood...

    My chain dropped last night riding very fast on very rough terrain. The chain got pinched & stuck between the small ring and pivot bolt junction. This has happened to me a couple times on the Spot, several times in an hour on my Highline test, and also happened during my RFX test about 5 years ago. This is obviously a design compromise, seeing as pivot placement must take priority. Perhaps an easy fix would be to use a pivot bolt with an extra thick head so it closes the gap betwen the pivot and the chain. This way the chain would have nowhere to go and might even stay on the ring.

  2. #2
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    anybody interested in a brand new large ano black RFX?

  3. #3
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    Must admit this happens to me a fair bit as well - no idea why it should be any worse on my Spot than on any of my previous bikes but it definitely seems to be. It's better now that I run a silly short chain and have ditched the big ring in favour of a bashguard so at least the chain doesn't fall off that way now.

    When it does come off and get wedged between the inner and the chainstay I've now worked out after great deliberation that it pops out more easily if you compress the suspension. Duh! A mate of mine demo'd a Cove Hustler and his chain dropped and got wedged down there - it was stuck so tight we ended up removing the chainset on the trail to get it out. So it's not just Turners.

  4. #4
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    Turners+very fast+rough terrain= chainguide

    Now shut up and quit yer whining

  5. #5
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    You might want to consider getting one of these. Prevents chain from dropping off of the small ring. http://www.ajsbikeparts.com/web-AJBIKEPARTs/AJ's%20Frameguard.htm
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    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  6. #6
    Chaplin Turner Overdrive
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    You might want to consider getting one of these. Prevents chain from dropping off of the small ring.
    Looks like a cool idea - my chainstay / BB area is pretty scratched up as well so that would be a good idea for the new frame. I have an old friend in Riverside CA so I might ask her to get hold of one for me as there'll be no hope in hell getting one in the UK.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodUK
    Looks like a cool idea - my chainstay / BB area is pretty scratched up as well so that would be a good idea for the new frame. I have an old friend in Riverside CA so I might ask her to get hold of one for me as there'll be no hope in hell getting one in the UK.
    Yes, The Path in Tustin carries them or you can have your friend call AJ directly.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Turners+very fast+rough terrain= chainguide
    Everytime I read a thread like this I'm always surprised.
    I run a 2 ring setup with bash, medium cage RD, keep my chain tight and almost never drop it.

    What's wrong with you people?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Everytime I read a thread like this I'm always surprised.
    I run a 2 ring setup with bash, medium cage RD, keep my chain tight and almost never drop it.

    What's wrong with you people?
    You musta missed the "very fast" part.............sorry, but it IS Friday

    I never had any problems on my Foes either, same drivetrain setup, but I have noticed some chainsuck/drop issues on the RFX. I've noticed it most on our shuttle rides and at Keystone, no problems on the techy stuff at Palmer though.
    Last edited by rr; 09-15-2006 at 12:00 PM.

  10. #10
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    Fellas...Fellas....Fellas....I'm not looking to prevent chain droppage, I'm very familiar with how chainguides work and when to implement them. All I'm sayin' is WHEN the chain ocassionally drops off the rings to the inside, there is a notch between the rings and pivot that can bind the chain on some level, making it hard to remove or cause catostrauphic failure if further pedalling is attempted.

    If someone crashes after they break their chain from this binding problem, they can file charges against Turner for faulty design. I'm trying to save Dave a lot of money & court time!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    You musta missed the "very fast" part, sorry, but it IS Friday
    BINGO! chain drops, sometimes, when going fast over long sections of rough terrain (rockgardens, braking bumps, etc.).

    Squeak, as Darren says, you need to learn to ride faster
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  12. #12
    Bodhisattva
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    or maybe you guys need to learn how to properly setup a drive train

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    All I'm sayin' is WHEN the chain ocassionally drops off the rings to the inside, there is a notch between the rings and pivot that can bind the chain on some level, making it hard to remove or cause catostrauphic failure if further pedalling is attempted.
    That's exactly what the AJ's Frameguard if for: prevent chain from getting lodged between pivot and rings as chain will not fall off the small ring.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms

    If someone crashes after they break their chain from this binding problem, they can file charges against Turner for faulty design. I'm trying to save Dave a lot of money & court time!
    Always thinking about someone else, such the humanitarian

    Squeak- your probably right, ask Larry how many der's and hangers I've bought since I got my RFX

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    Memo To Dt

    Beware of bulk purchase of bikes by the Howells...

  16. #16
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    Rick, time for you to spend 30 bones on a Blackspire stinger. Fixed my problem of the exploding rear der.

  17. #17
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    They're gonna sue because their chain got jammed? Guess Shimano and SRAM are about to go belly up, cause about everyone I know has stuck their chain between the cassette and the spokes at one time or another - and you could say that the same "catastropic failure" could happen there too. The fact that there is any space between the cassette and spokes is a glaring design flaw...

    I've dropped my chain to the inside when my forn derailer isn't adjusted right, and haven't managed to jam it into the space you're talking about. I haven't looked that close at alot of other bikes, but I can't imagine that this would be a Turner-only problem, since the BB is where most main pivots are located on full sussers.

    I'm not saying you're not right, but you seem to blowing this out of proportion a bit.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chingon
    Rick, time for you to spend 30 bones on a Blackspire stinger. Fixed my problem of the exploding rear der.
    I've got a Heim/LRP coming for UT, I would of gone with the Stinger but I believe there would of been too many clearance issues with my 952 crankset.

    My der and hanger issues are more a function of me smacking rocks, and the weak X9 der material, some of our rides are very rocky/chunky type trail cond's. I'm getting a wheelset built next month and I'm going with the Saint hub/der combo.

  19. #19
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    Yup. It's a pain in the ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Fellas...Fellas....Fellas....I'm not looking to prevent chain droppage, I'm very familiar with how chainguides work and when to implement them. All I'm sayin' is WHEN the chain ocassionally drops off the rings to the inside, there is a notch between the rings and pivot that can bind the chain on some level, making it hard to remove or cause catostrauphic failure if further pedalling is attempted.

    If someone crashes after they break their chain from this binding problem, they can file charges against Turner for faulty design. I'm trying to save Dave a lot of money & court time!

    My old XCE used to do that quite a bit. My new LX outboard bearing cranks seem to move the granny far enough away from the swingarm that I don't get the problem on my 5-spot.

    Dave

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Everytime I read a thread like this I'm always surprised.
    I run a 2 ring setup with bash, medium cage RD, keep my chain tight and almost never drop it.

    What's wrong with you people?
    Some people actually ride their bikes, you know. It's danged easy to retain a chain when the bike never leaves the roof rack.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    or maybe you guys need to learn how to properly setup a drive train
    Yes, that's true.

    Homer Hamfist buys bling but wrecks when wrenching.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Everytime I read a thread like this I'm always surprised.
    I run a 2 ring setup with bash, medium cage RD, keep my chain tight and almost never drop it.

    What's wrong with you people?
    Yeah, I agree.

    And, I've seen nearly every device that is intended to "keep the chain from falling off the granny ring" actually cause a PITA jam, because somehow the chain still comes off, and it then jams in between the granny and the device, even if there wasn't enough room between the two for a chain in the first place.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  22. #22
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    Honestly, Dusty's idea of a thicker-headed pivot bolt on the drive seems like a really simple solution, although the compressing your rear suspension solution works just fine too.

    Maybe DT will see this and come through, but it is I-Bike prep time, so don't hold your breath.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  23. #23
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    It's something that I'd like to see, too.

    Sure, the same problem happens with many bikes, but Turner is very consumer minded. Why not do something to future designs that would stop it from happening?

    Having said that, it may be a tougher problem to solve than it sounds. So let's say dave uses a bigger bolt head. What about those with no problem now? Will the reduced space create a problem.

    maybe SRAM and Shitmano could engineer something into future cranks

  24. #24
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    Dusty,

    If you were smart, you'd get a ziptie, put it around the chainstay yoke by the crank with the lock tang pointing towards the rings. This prevents the chain from being sucked past the yoke.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Dusty,
    If you were smart, you'd get a ziptie, put it around the chainstay yoke by the crank with the lock tang pointing towards the rings. This prevents the chain from being sucked past the yoke.
    I don't think Dusty wants to hear about how to fix his so called "problem". We suggest ways to do it but he seems to glance over them. I suspect he's just fishing to see who he can p-off.

    We all know this happens not just to Turner bikes but any FS rig when going fast over rough terrain. NBD, just put a chain guide, mids cage deariller and/or AJ's frameguard and move on. But suggesting it is a huge problem...please I aint falling for that. He seems to enjoy messing with some people here.

    Nice try Dusty. next....
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  26. #26
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    What size

    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    You might want to consider getting one of these. Prevents chain from dropping off of the small ring. [URL="http://www.ajsbikeparts.com/web-AJBIKEPARTs/AJ's%20Frameguard.htm[/URL]
    Im waiting for my new crank to arraive so i cant take the measurement.. is it the FG1 or FG2 for 5 Spot with XT Hollowtech II crank/BB?

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    Chain Suck (side topic)

    Ok this might be a little off topic, however it's still on chain suck.

    I put some new Deuce cranks on my flux the other day and I'm getting tons of chain suck. The flux does seem very prone to chain suck, however it's never been this bad before.

    The RF instructions recommend placing the space on the drive side. Since the chain keeps on dropping down, would placing the spacer on the non drive side fix this issue?

    Has anyone tried putting the spacer on the non drive side?

  28. #28
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    I don't see how putting a spacer on the non drive side would affect chainring alignment on x-style BBs. You could remove the driveside spacer as many people have which will move the rings closer to the bb and perhaps help things. It's worth a try I suppose.

    I guess I've been pretty lucky with this chaindrop thing, I can hardly think of a time I've had the chain drop off past the granny on either my Spot or RFX. I use the X-style cups with one 2mm spacer on the drive side. I also use a DRS most of the time but even the times I run w/o it or just bypass it for the fock of it... no drop issues. The handfull of times I can recall dropping the chain, it has not gotten stuck in the pivot area.

    I'm knocking on wood now b/c this will surely be my next mechanical thanks to high speed internet carma delivery.

    For those who have not considered this yet:
    1) Get a chain guide like the DRS, Heim, or Stinger. There's no reason not to have one if you ride choppy terrain.
    2) Make sure your Fder face rides as close to the inside of the chain as possible. I use to drop the chain off the big ring onto the granny on rough terrain even with the DRS until someone here clued me in on this.

    Dusty and Blue both made good suggestions: A stand-off bolt might help keep the chain out of the works for people who have this problem. It might also create other problems if not carefully considered. I'd say the best compromise would be to make it an accessory rather than a standard installation.

    I can also see how if you're doing a shuttle run you are less likely to know when your chain drops than when your're riding techy back trails...so you're more likely to pedal a droped chain into the pivot gap. This is when you'll need the most protection.

    All this is different than chain suck... there are a dozen different reasons CS can happen. Start with a fresh chain and rings... if it still happens then you have to go step by step through your setup.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 09-18-2006 at 08:29 AM.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PSI
    Im waiting for my new crank to arraive so i cant take the measurement.. is it the FG1 or FG2 for 5 Spot with XT Hollowtech II crank/BB?
    I would call AJ and ask him. I think he has a new model/version. I don't remember what I have but I am running a prototype. FWIW, AJ has a Burner and RFX so the frameguards are designed around Turners.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Dusty,

    If you were smart, you'd get a ziptie, put it around the chainstay yoke by the crank with the lock tang pointing towards the rings. This prevents the chain from being sucked past the yoke.
    I can't visualize what you're suggesting here at my desk, but I'll have a look when I get home. Thanks.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    I don't think Dusty wants to hear about how to fix his so called "problem". We suggest ways to do it but he seems to glance over them. I suspect he's just fishing to see who he can p-off.

    We all know this happens not just to Turner bikes but any FS rig when going fast over rough terrain. NBD, just put a chain guide, mids cage deariller and/or AJ's frameguard and move on. But suggesting it is a huge problem...please I aint falling for that. He seems to enjoy messing with some people here.

    Nice try Dusty. next....
    Not trolling at all. Like I said, I dropped my chain and it got stuck between the pivot and the small ring. I'm not trying to prevent the actual droppage, if I was I'd have installed a chainguide and not posted anything. My chain doesn't drop enough to neccessitate a guide IMO. But....when it DOES fall off, I'd like to prevent it from getting stuck in that crevice.

    I think the simplest/best way to do that would be a pivot bolt with a thick head. Have a look at the crevice in question(not chingon's ass) and I think you'll agree.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Not trolling at all. Like I said, I dropped my chain and it got stuck between the pivot and the small ring. I'm not trying to prevent the actual droppage, if I was I'd have installed a chainguide and not posted anything. My chain doesn't drop enough to neccessitate a guide IMO. But....when it DOES fall off, I'd like to prevent it from getting stuck in that crevice.

    I think the simplest/best way to do that would be a pivot bolt with a thick head. Have a look at the crevice in question(not chingon's ass) and I think you'll agree.
    I agree, the space is juuuust right to jam the chain, and I've done it myself a few times, I think a bolt that would prevent this would also cause the chain to rub on it in the granny and larger cogs though. The best solution sounds like that AJ guard, or just leave it alone and ride it.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Everytime I read a thread like this I'm always surprised.
    I run a 2 ring setup with bash, medium cage RD, keep my chain tight and almost never drop it.

    What's wrong with you people?
    Agreed.

    Could this be the first documented case of owner suck?

    Taking it easy for all you sinners.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubilee
    Agreed.

    Could this be the first documented case of owner suck?

    Nice, I bet DT reads this and thinks, "I've got a thick bolt for you" OK, that was kinda gross but you get the idea

  35. #35
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    How about..

    1. leaving the chain on the middle ring when going FAST down long, rocky sections?

    2. keeping the spacer on the drive side.. sure you want a better chain line, blah blah.. but the guys who designed the drivetrain (Shimano, Raceface, truvativ, etc) aren't dumb either

    3. go with 9-spd (narrower chains)

    all probably dumb suggestions, but i have no chains getting jammed with my spot that way.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by techFiend
    1. leaving the chain on the middle ring when going FAST down long, rocky sections?

    If the trail is pointed downhill, I am in the middle ring.

    2. keeping the spacer on the drive side.. sure you want a better chain line, blah blah.. but the guys who designed the drivetrain (Shimano, Raceface, truvativ, etc) aren't dumb either

    The 5spot bb width calls for no spacers on Race Face outboard setup.

    3. go with 9-spd (narrower chains)

    I'm rockin' 9 speed.

    all probably dumb suggestions, but i have no chains getting jammed with my spot that way.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    My chain doesn't drop enough to neccessitate a guide IMO. But....when it DOES fall off, I'd like to prevent it from getting stuck in that crevice.
    Well the way to prevent chain from getting stuck in that crevice is to prevent the chian from dropping off the small ring; yes?
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Well the way to prevent chain from getting stuck in that crevice is to prevent the chian from dropping off the small ring; yes?
    Point taken, Focker. But I'm not puttin' that frisbee on my bike! Although... I could dremel away 95% of it and just cover the crevice.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Point taken, Focker. But I'm not puttin' that frisbee on my bike! Although... I could dremel away 95% of it and just cover the crevice.
    Dusty, you afraid to loose your poseur status if you put a frisbee on your Turner?
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  40. #40
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    here is the fix....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Been a while since I've covered this topic, but while I'm in a complaining mood...

    My chain dropped last night riding very fast on very rough terrain. The chain got pinched & stuck between the small ring and pivot bolt junction. This has happened to me a couple times on the Spot, several times in an hour on my Highline test, and also happened during my RFX test about 5 years ago. This is obviously a design compromise, seeing as pivot placement must take priority. Perhaps an easy fix would be to use a pivot bolt with an extra thick head so it closes the gap betwen the pivot and the chain. This way the chain would have nowhere to go and might even stay on the ring.
    If you got an XTR M960 cranckset, change all the chainrings for Blackspire and put the 2mm spacer on the non-drive side.

    Best shifting and no dropped chains.

    If you got the new xt crank then same thing but with Race face chainrings.

    ZR
    Sit and spin my ass...

  41. #41
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    If anyone wants to get the AJ frameguard, you need FG1 according to AJ. Like HollywoodUK says, they're not available here in the UK & silly cash to get one imported.

  42. #42
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    ... and if we just ... hmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    :The 5spot bb width calls for no spacers on Race Face outboard setup:
    um... I was talking about the BB spacers. Raceface calls for 1 BB spacer on the drive side for 73mm wide BB shells unless you run an E-type FD.

    http://www.raceface.com/tech/inst/DeusCrankset.pdf

    Sometimes, people put this BB spacer on the non-drive side to get better chainline (more common with Shimano drivetrains).

    There is another spacer (chainline spacer which goes on the spindle) for Raceface which basically does the same as putting the BB spacer on the non-drive side. I suppose you are setting up to a 48mm chainline? Try 50mm. It may work better. You'll have to learn how to use your granny more effectively - not as studly as going middle-ring and big-cog...

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by techFiend
    um... I was talking about the BB spacers. Raceface calls for 1 BB spacer on the drive side for 73mm wide BB shells unless you run an E-type FD.

    http://www.raceface.com/tech/inst/DeusCrankset.pdf

    Sometimes, people put this BB spacer on the non-drive side to get better chainline (more common with Shimano drivetrains).

    There is another spacer (chainline spacer which goes on the spindle) for Raceface which basically does the same as putting the BB spacer on the non-drive side. I suppose you are setting up to a 48mm chainline? Try 50mm. It may work better. You'll have to learn how to use your granny more effectively - not as studly as going middle-ring and big-cog...
    Interesting! I was going by the chart on the sticker attached to the plastic sleeve of the bb and it says NO spacers for 73mm. They must have changed it. Anyway, the funny part about that is my cranks came loose for the 2nd time since attaching them to the Spot last night, so I ended up throwing on a bb spacer to tighten things up. I left one plastic(thin) spacer on the spindle and have no binding and a tight fit.

    We'll see how that works out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    If you got an XTR M960 cranckset, change all the chainrings for Blackspire and put the 2mm spacer on the non-drive side.

    Best shifting and no dropped chains.


    Irrelevant to chain drop, but while you're at it, replace the stock BB bearings for a couple of Phil Wood or Enduro bearings. Money well spent.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLud


    Irrelevant to chain drop, but while you're at it, replace the stock BB bearings for a couple of Phil Wood or Enduro bearings. Money well spent.
    I hear that! I recently repacked the stock race face outboard bearings and was not impressed with the dust caps and how they re-install. I like the Enduro setup and will hook those up in a month or two after I get alittle more out of these stock bearings.

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