Tscheezy's definitive comprehensive dw-link 5-Spot review- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Tscheezy's definitive comprehensive dw-link 5-Spot review

    If a picture is worth a thousand words, I suppose a video must be a million. Enjoy:

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/14312551?byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe>

    In summation: fun bike.

  2. #2
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Always good to see what you put together, love the spinny head cam shots.

  3. #3
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    Nice vid, I like the helicopter rotor camera mount.

  4. #4
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    wow, that's a really nice video. I like how you keep switching the camera angles.
    fill what's empty, empty what's full, and scratch where it itches.

  5. #5
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    Video taken at 1am as there is always light in the summertime.

    Cool vid.

  6. #6
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    Nice vid, the spinning headcam shots are awesome. I have to get me one of those...

  7. #7
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    Great vid. Thanks for sharing!

  8. #8
    the refurbished one
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    nice perspectives!
    how do you make these spinning shots?
    Sokrates is dead, Galilei is dead, Newton is dead, Einstein is dead, Pantani is dead and i am feeling sick too.

  9. #9
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    Great stuff, TS. I'd be interested to hear how you felt the bike handle compared to 6pack or Spot though.....apart from 'somewhere in between'........
    'I've got a bike, you can ride it if you like. It's got a basket, a bell that rings, and things to make it look good' - Syd B

  10. #10
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    The consequences of going off trail on the ridge line (at about 2:45) looks pretty nasty.

  11. #11
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    Now we need a picture of all the camera mounts...

    for the behind the scenes video

  12. #12
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    thanks for sharing the stoke - great vid!
    ¡Geaux Tigers! - ¡Visca el Barça!

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobo_krkk_NIN
    Now we need a picture of all the camera mounts...

    for the behind the scenes video
    +1

    Still trying to figure out how you got a couple of those shots!
    Crunchy. Even in mud.

  14. #14
    My cup runneth over
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    It looks like poor Barney is still on the 'old'....

    I wonder if it replaces both your Spot and RFX?

  15. #15
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    Brilliant video!!

  16. #16
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    super cool, very well done......thanks

  17. #17
    on a routine expedition
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  18. #18
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    Well done. How are the mosquitoes up there?

  19. #19
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    Way cool....

  20. #20
    Rolling
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    Awesome. I could care less about the bike frame. I just want to know more about the video technique.

  21. #21
    Now with flavor!!
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    Haha! Nice work man!
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  22. #22
    Ride More - Suffer Less
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    nice vid!, I love my DW bike....How was the King catch rate this season around Kodiak!?

  23. #23
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac
    I wonder if it replaces both your Spot and RFX?
    I sold my RFX, if that is any indication. I built the dw Spot up with the parts from it, so it is a pretty stout build. I still have the Horst Spot for now and may keep it a while. That is still a timeless performer.

    Quote Originally Posted by spadmike
    How are the mosquitoes up there?
    It depends on where you are. There are almost none around town, but you can find spots within a few miles where I would consider them annoying, but still nothing like in the Interior.

    Quote Originally Posted by RipRoar
    How was the King catch rate this season around Kodiak!?
    The Karluk and Ayakulik Chinook runs are pretty much in the toilet, and no one is sure why. ADF&G took eggs from those systems and is establishing a "put and take" sport fishery along the road system which is doing well. They have had a few setbacks the past two summers (warm water and low spawner and egg survival rates) so the number of fish has plateaued, but hopefully they will increase again with better conditions and better luck. I work for Fish and Game and have helped with the Chinook enhancement project. It's cool stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by swan lee
    I'd be interested to hear how you felt the bike handle compared to 6pack or Spot though.....apart from 'somewhere in between'........
    I will post up some real thoughts on this at some point. So far the dw seems to retain the Spot pedigree with a slightly plusher feel when descending (though I also have a 160mm coil on the dw and only a 140mm dual air on the old Spot). Most of the time I don't notice the dw link as doing anything special vis a vis my Horst Spot, though you get the sensation of a rearward axle path when coasting over bumps which is a very nice trait. There are pros and cons though. The dw has less tire clearance. I drop my chain on it pretty often too, presumably because the old chainstay used to minimize chain bounce somewhat and now there is nothing in the way to stop it (I am running the same chain guide on both bikes). The dw standover is better and it seems to take a 160mm fork with no complaints. I don't notice that the bikes pedal that differently to be honest. The dw bobs out of the saddle and doesn't when seated- just like my old bikes, though it may accomplish this with a bit less compression damping. It's the sum of little things, the balance of pluses and minuses, though I don't think it's any huge leap forward: it took an incredible bike and tweaked it in a few ways that some folks may deem important, others less so. The coasting bump absorption is probably my favorite aspect of the dw.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobo_krkk_NIN
    Now we need a picture of all the camera mounts... for the behind the scenes video
    I will put together a pictorial of my camera mounts. I am going to redo my propeller-head mount first though. It's so lame I'm embarrassed to show it.

  24. #24
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    fantastic video! Did you use Garageband to make the music?

  25. #25
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    Sort of. I imported a song with vocals (Free Stress Test by Professor Murder) and chopped out the lyrics portions, and dubbed the instrumentals a bit by cut/paste, etc.

  26. #26
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Ok, here are some of my video mount bits. First off, the helicopter head. I used a plastic chunk cut to allow me to velcro it to my helmet using the vents, and on top of that I used a spare Heim chain guide roller. Bolted to that I have an aluminum plate that I can hose-clamp some rod or dowel to. I used a 1/2" wooden dowel first, but I promptly broke that. Now I have some cheap WalMart tent pole sections. They flex and bounce, so some stiffer tubing would probably help, but I can take the two sections apart and the pole ends up half as long so I can pack it around. The camera is mounted on one end via the GoPro seatpost clamp mount, and I have a 12 oz fishing weight taped to the other end for "balance." I actually have the rig set up slightly camera-heavy so I can position it somewhat by leaning my head. The whole thing is a bit of a millstone and your helmet had better fit pretty tight! I would not suggest riding long with this doohickey on your head since you will look like a freaking 'tard.











    For the ground-skimming shots I just used a pole similar to the propeller head contraption, but I just hold it in my hand and either ran or rode behind Barny and held the camera a few inches off the dirt as we moved along. Nothing complicated there.



    On-bike scenes were generally done using RAM mounts. gpscity.com has an excellent selection of RAM stuff. I use the 1" ball head metal system ('B' size). The plastic RAM stuff flexes too much. I use them with a GoPro, but a Contour HD is pictured here:













    The one exception to the all-metal rule is that I like this particular RAM arm since you can adjust the angle between the two ends independently:



    Just note that these mounts are pretty solid and if you crash or catch them on something while hauling down the trail you could dent the tubing on your precious scooter or force the mount into the spokes. I have had a few oopsies using the mounts but never had anything really ugly happen. It's probably just a matter of time though.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Sort of. I imported a song with vocals (Free Stress Test by Professor Murder) and chopped out the lyrics portions, and dubbed the instrumentals a bit by cut/paste, etc.
    I thought you might have! I shazzamed the song on my iphone and found the original to not be nearly as good.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  28. #28
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    Philip, that stuff is gold. Very inspiring. Thanks for sharing your setup too.

    Now share Barny's thought's while she waits for you to set up.

  29. #29
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    Absolutely Fantastic!!
    Tscheezy - I always love your posts.
    Usually I click for the great scenery - AK and Barny
    I'm Xposting this in AM - http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=7245740
    Great Job!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  30. #30
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    Hey tscheezy, what's the name of that tune?
    Actually propellerhead is kinda close...
    Last edited by highdelll; 08-22-2010 at 08:42 PM.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  31. #31
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Now share Barny's thought's while she waits for you to set up.
    "Wow, what a nerd. That retarded looking contraption looks right at home on his head."


  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    "Wow, what a nerd. That retarded looking contraption looks right at home on his head."

    Propeller-head...

    Great video! I love the ingenuity & creativity.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy

    I work for Fish and Game and have helped with the Chinook enhancement project. It's cool stuff.
    BTW- You may be familiar with the recent success we've had with the Sockeye runs in ID with high numbers of fish returning all the way to Redfish Lake this year. It's been a long slog and I'm sure more to come. Thought you'd find this of interest.
    http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/0...-way-baby.html

    http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/0...link=mirelated

  34. #34
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    Interesting review

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I sold my RFX, if that is any indication. I built the dw Spot up with the parts from it, so it is a pretty stout build. I still have the Horst Spot for now and may keep it a while. That is still a timeless performer.


    It depends on where you are. There are almost none around town, but you can find spots within a few miles where I would consider them annoying, but still nothing like in the Interior.


    The Karluk and Ayakulik Chinook runs are pretty much in the toilet, and no one is sure why. ADF&G took eggs from those systems and is establishing a "put and take" sport fishery along the road system which is doing well. They have had a few setbacks the past two summers (warm water and low spawner and egg survival rates) so the number of fish has plateaued, but hopefully they will increase again with better conditions and better luck. I work for Fish and Game and have helped with the Chinook enhancement project. It's cool stuff.


    I will post up some real thoughts on this at some point. So far the dw seems to retain the Spot pedigree with a slightly plusher feel when descending (though I also have a 160mm coil on the dw and only a 140mm dual air on the old Spot). Most of the time I don't notice the dw link as doing anything special vis a vis my Horst Spot, though you get the sensation of a rearward axle path when coasting over bumps which is a very nice trait. There are pros and cons though. The dw has less tire clearance. I drop my chain on it pretty often too, presumably because the old chainstay used to minimize chain bounce somewhat and now there is nothing in the way to stop it (I am running the same chain guide on both bikes). The dw standover is better and it seems to take a 160mm fork with no complaints. I don't notice that the bikes pedal that differently to be honest. The dw bobs out of the saddle and doesn't when seated- just like my old bikes, though it may accomplish this with a bit less compression damping. It's the sum of little things, the balance of pluses and minuses, though I don't think it's any huge leap forward: it took an incredible bike and tweaked it in a few ways that some folks may deem important, others less so. The coasting bump absorption is probably my favorite aspect of the dw.


    I will put together a pictorial of my camera mounts. I am going to redo my propeller-head mount first though. It's so lame I'm embarrassed to show it.
    The only bike I have ridden that is head and tails better than than my HL Spot is an Ibis Mojo but it has a softer tail to it. It just pedals better but doesn't feel as solid under me...

    Those shots are incredible with the spinning video cam...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    "Wow, what a nerd. That retarded looking contraption looks right at home on his head."


    I can imagine....and she is prolly laughing hard at this thread too.

    BTW, I just placed an order at the site you posted for mounting hardware. Not sure I will do the propeller thing soon but that RAM stuff looks way superior and more flexible than the GoPro stuff. Thanks for that.

  36. #36
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    Very nice video as we've all come to expect.

    I pictured the propellerhead thing pretty much like you've shown. You should leave the shot of your arm reaching up and giving the contraption a push in the edited video once in a while.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  37. #37
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    What kind of tires are those on the grey bike?
    thanks man!
    Colin

  38. #38
    No, that's not phonetic
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    On the rear I have a Geax Datura 2.2 TNT and on the front a Maxxis ADvantage 2.4.

  39. #39
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    Tscheezy,
    How does that ram yoke clamp base work on square seat or chain stays?

    And I wanted to say thanks for posting all of those pics. I really like the look of the ram mounts. As soon as I get a little extra cash I am planning to spring for a GoPro HD and some ram mounts. Oh and definitely a chest mount. I really dig the gopro footage with the chest mount.

    I had a original GoPro a while back that was mounted to my helmet but I ended up selling it. I wasn't a big fan of the footage unless you had another rider in front of you to kinda highlight the trail features.

  40. #40
    No, that's not phonetic
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    The clamp area on the RAM yoke clamp base mount actually works better on square tubing than round. It has a square-shaped opening so when attached to a round tube it clamps on 4 surfaces while on square tubing it grabs the corners securely. I have whacked it good and ended up bending the crap out of the long threaded shaft that closes the clamp. Luckily that gave way without denting my seat stay or sucking the whole mess into the spokes. The clamp's opening is too small to go on oversized round tubes like the downtube. You will want the strap rail model for that. I pad tube with rubber fire hose material under the mount and hose clamp.


  41. #41
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    cool angles!

  42. #42
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    Nice vid.

    Got ticks?
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  43. #43
    No, that's not phonetic
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    No, a bevy of other annoying bugs, but no ticks.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Nice vid.

    Got ticks?
    That's a great Q
    for some reason I thought AK was without the ticks...
    atleast up north, and/or Kodiak - could be wrong..

    **Edit - ahh, yeah no ticks
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  45. #45
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    But how 'bout them skeeters tscheezy?!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  46. #46
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Not many mosquitos around town. You can find white socks without trying very hard though.

  47. #47
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    White-socks are like 'no-see-ums'...right?
    Last edited by highdelll; 08-26-2010 at 12:26 AM.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  48. #48
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    ...
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  49. #49
    No, that's not phonetic
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    No, there are no-see-ums around in places too, but white socks are different. A bit bigger, and not stealthy.

  50. #50
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    Bigger and annoy to hell...nice

    still love it up there - (as if I've seen anything/everything)
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  51. #51
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    Ts, I came across a thread of yours that was riding through 4 seasons on kodiak and there were pics of your wife on a FS bike with a sus fork and fat tires. Can you elaborate on that setup? Im dieing to know!
    05 Spesh Rockhopper

  52. #52
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    Great video! Because of this, I also bought some RAM mounts. Great stuff, very solid. Way better then the stuff you get from GoPro.

  53. #53
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalloutMan
    Ts, I came across a thread of yours that was riding through 4 seasons on kodiak and there were pics of your wife on a FS bike with a sus fork and fat tires. Can you elaborate on that setup? Im dieing to know!
    I think you are looking for this ---> Linky

    Here's another review

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/14445548?byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe>
    Last edited by tscheezy; 09-04-2010 at 04:59 PM.

  54. #54
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    Another great video, thanks for posting.

  55. #55
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    Tscheezy, great videos as always. How does the sizing on the DW Spot compare to the sizing of the HL Spot? Does it fit you as well?

    Did you have to make any major adjustments going from one bike to the other?
    I'm kind of scared about the shorter top tube on the DW Spot as compared to the same size TNT/HL spot.

    Are you going to post a setup of the new bike in the setup thread?

  56. #56
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by soslow
    How does the sizing on the DW Spot compare to the sizing of the HL Spot? Does it fit you as well?

    Did you have to make any major adjustments going from one bike to the other?
    I'm kind of scared about the shorter top tube on the DW Spot as compared to the same size TNT/HL spot.
    If DT had handed this bike to me and had simply told me "this replaces a current model," I would have guessed it was the "new RFX" without question. New RFX in the sense that it was supposed to fill the same niche as the 2008 RFX, which was an All Mountain/Trail Bike, not a light FR machine like the real 2011 new RFX is targeted to be. Yes, the dw Spot's top tube is a bit less than a 1/2 inch shorter than the old Spot's. If you hop from one bike to the other, you can feel it. I have the exact same stem, same bar, same saddle, and same seatpost on both bikes, and the new dw bike feels a bit lower-riding (BB height) and more upright (cockpit) than my old one. It feels like a lower-BB version of my RFX, in fact. I suppose I could run a 5mm longer stem and slide my saddle back 5mm and pretty much erase the difference in the two Spot cockpits, but I don't feel the need. As far as I'm concerned the dw Spot replaces my recently-sold RFX, not my Horst Spot.

    The main reason I would think the dw Spot was replacing the RFX because the dw Spot is plusher than the old Spot. Not a little bit, but really noticeably. I have been riding my old Spot and the new dw Spot off and on and the biggest difference is the coasting bump absorption. The dw bike has an HV air canister and yet I never push the o-ring off the end of the shock's shaft. I put the same shock on my old Spot and at the same pressure I bottomed the shock riding the same trails, and the o-ring fell off the end of the shaft. In fact I was never able to get away using an HV air sleeve on my old Turner bikes, instead always opting for the LV sleeves to control bottoming. Somehow I can use an HV sleeve on the dw bike and I have to say it feels great. I am ready to give credit where credit is due, and the two Daves did a super job executing on this one. I can run my body weight minus 20 pounds in psi just like my old bike, but the initial travel is plusher, and somehow it still ramps up smoothly late in travel using the exact same shock. This is the biggest standout feature for me and it is rare that I would say a bike feels like it has more travel than it does, but for me the new Spot delivers in this department. I will note that assuming your shock gets a real 2.0" of stroke, I measured the wheel movement at the rear axle to be a full 5.6 inches along the curved axle path. Nice to see truth in travel advertising in the business is alive and well.

    I can't say I like the climbing on the new Spot more than my old machine. It's not that's bad or anything, it's just not noticeably better so far. My old Spot seems livelier, more spirited and sprightly on climbs, if a tiny bit bouncier. The new bike feels like I'm climbing on, well, my old RFX; not entirely surprising since it is using the parts off my old RFX. The dw is solid and business-like, but not faster than my old Spot. Some folks say the new dw bikes climb like lighter bikes, but that has not been my experience. It feels like a bike just as heavy and purpose-built as it is, no less, no more. My dw Spot is 32.34 pounds and my old Spot is 30.62 pounds if anyone cares, a difference of 1.7 pounds. The tires and rims on the dw are barely heavier than on my old Spot, and the dw has a heavier fork (Lyrik coil versus either a 150mm dual air Revelation or a 140mm dual air Pike on the old Spot) but otherwise the builds are nearly identical. I can lower the Lyrik while neither the Revelation or Pike are adjustable, so I call the forks a wash. If I were splitting hairs I guess I would say that you can feel the shock movement while standing to climb on the old Spot, but even though the shock on the dw seems to move about as much when climbing out of the saddle on the dw machine you don't feel it in the chassis as much. That may be why the dw feels sort of muted to me. On descents the Lyrik coil matches the rear end on the dw Spot like a hand in glove. It's really a perfect match.

    The dw seems to split the difference between the Horst and TNT Turners in behavior. The Horst bike's shock extended when applying the rear brake. Not that the suspension actually jacks, but that when your COM moves forward under deceleration, the rear end lifts. On the dw bike, the rear end barely moves. It seems like there must be a little braking squat going on, and even when sitting quite still on the bike and not trying to counteract the COM moving forward, the rear end hardly moves. It may extend just a hair, but if you did move your weight back over the rear tire the net effect would probably be a bit of compression. On my TNT bikes the rear end didn't move at all- the braking squat seemed to counter the COM moving forward perfectly and the chassis stayed level. I didn't notice the dreaded suspension-stiffening or loss-of-traction some report when riding faux-bars so much, so the "squat" of the TNT never seemed like a really bad thing to me. In fact I liked the chassis-leveling behavior. The dw seems to have some of this as well, but the suspension appears to stay pretty supple. It is easy to slide your weight back a few inches to counteract the movement of the COM when braking, so having the shock extend on the Horst bikes seemed like a non-issue to me. None of them braked badly imo, but the dw may borrow the best traits of both the Horst and the TNT.

    Long story short, the fit issue was not a big deal for me because the bike the dw Spot is replacing is a bike it matched perfectly: the 2008 RFX. I will try the dw Spot with a Pike soon and see if it feels like my old Spot more. I doubt I am setting your mind at ease over the top tube length, but if it makes you feel any better the overall geometry is Pure Turner. You can feel DT's hand at work here.
    Last edited by tscheezy; 08-30-2010 at 08:12 PM.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    If DT..... You can feel DT's hand at work here.
    Really interesting review TS. Appreciate the effort to put it in the perspective of your experience/style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac
    Really interesting review TS. Appreciate the effort to put it in the perspective of your experience/style.
    Same here. I appreciate the honest feedback. You've made up my mind that the only way for me to tell is to demo a dw bike. (which I should probably do anyway)

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    A former owner of a DW Spot sold his because of perceived excessive "pedal feedback". Did you notice such behavior? I never did the three times I test rode one but I never owned one.
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  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    A former owner of a DW Spot sold his because of perceived excessive "pedal feedback". Did you notice such behavior?
    No, but we don't have any superchunk or shelfy climbs here at home to really test that.

    I did do an experiment, however:

    I put the bike in a "climbing gear" (32t middle ring in front and the 2nd cog 30t in back), locked the rear brake by taping the lever to the bar, and removed the rear shock. Cycling the suspension from full extension to full bottom-out the cranks rolled back about the equivalent of one click of my King rear hub, or 5 degrees. In other words, I could get the cranks to roll back the same distance if I didn't compress the suspension but rather let the freehub move back one ringdrive engagement point. Note that this was with a FULL suspension cycle, from topout (no sag: a full 7.5" i2i) past bottom-out (the rear triangle yoke resting on the seat tube: a bit beyond 5.5" i2i). BTW- I don't know anyone who pedals through that range of suspension compression.

    I did the same experiment in the same gear with my Horst Spot and the cranks moved back roughly half a King click, or 2.5 degrees. So the Horst bike has approximately "half" as much pedal feedback in that gear as the dw bike. I don't have a high/forward single pivot handy to compare what sort of feedback one of those would produce. I do know that high/forward single pivots like the SC Heckler make my knees explode when climbing shelfy trails, so I have felt feedback before, but neither the Horst Spot nor the dw Spot make my knees feel funny.

    I really don't know if my numbers mean much, and I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm looking at the wrong thing. I also can't say if all the dw pedal "feedback" happens at some critical point in the travel around sag where your friend could feel it, or if it is distributed throughout the travel. I can't feel it, but I also never felt it in most VPPs I have ridden and some other people complain about those. It is also useful to point out that the gear you are in makes a big difference. If you are climbing in the granny ring in front and the big cog in back, the pedal feedback will feel a lot stronger than if climbing in the middle ring in front and the same cog in back (on the same bike). I generally climb in the middle ring, so I may reduce my exposure to pedal feedback a bit.

    Just out of curiosity, I "mapped" the axle path by taping a sharpie in the rear dropouts and moving the suspension on the dw bike from a shock i2i of 7.5" down to 5.5". The travel with a full 2.0" stroke shock is 143mm, or 5.63 inches. I measured the BB at 352mm or 13.8 inches with the Lyrik U-turn racked out to 160mm of travel and some reasonably fat tires. Not that this is necessarily instructive of anything, but it looks like this:


  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy

    I put the bike in a "climbing gear" (32t middle ring in front and the 2nd cog 30t in back), locked the rear brake by taping the lever to the bar, and removed the rear shock. Cycling the suspension from full extension to full bottom-out the cranks rolled back about the equivalent of one click of my King rear hub, or 5 degrees.
    I think that is a cool experiment (and a great way to measure travel). I wonder what the result would be in 22 X 34? It seems DW and many mini link suspensions are really optimized for the middle ring as I recall.
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    There may be more going on here than I am aware of, but basically pedal feedback is a function of "chain growth", or how much the rear axle moves relative to the bb during suspension compression. The distance between the dw Spot's bb and rear axle increases ~25 mm by my measurement when the suspension cycles all the way. The Horst Spot's increases by ~14 mm. That is why the Horst bike only rotates the cranks back about half as far as on the dw bike: it experiences roughly half as much "chain growth", or to put it another way, it is pulling roughly half as much chain back (14 vs 25 mm). How much the chain growth affects the cranks is a function of the tooth ratio between the chainring and cassette cog. On a given bike, running a 32t in front and a 32t in back would provide half as much pedal kickback as if you were running a 16t in front (if that existed) and a 32t in back. It's really just a ratio, and a 22/32 combo would give you roughly 65% more "kickback" than my 32/30 combo would.

    There is a LOT more going on back there than just chain growth, and I think it's a lot of those other factors that dw is referring to when he talks about preferred cog combos. That stuff is WAY over my head. "I don't know art, I just know what I like."

    BTW- my "definitive comprehensive" review title was supposed to be a joke. I much prefer posting videos and shots of the stupid crap I strap to my helmet than talking about suspension stuff.

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    I would test my Burner (XRs and PUSHed RP3) against my Superlight (RP23 with HV can) on an extended chunky climb.

    It woudn't matter which gear I was climbing in, the Burner would "melt through" the chunk. I could keep pedaling efficiently and just motor on through.

    OTOH, the Superlight would tend to stall out a bit and wouldn't just "melt through" like the Burner. The big difference in my perceptions of eithers' chunk riding ability was that I never shouted out "dam pedal feedback" when on my Superlight. In fact, I never pointed to its "stalling out" (if that's the proper term) as a negative.

    Some riders claim to be really really sensitive to "pedal feedback". Me, OTOH, couldn't care less. I rode the Burner and Superlight side by side for three years on the same trails. A "PF sensitive" sort probably would have sold the Superlight immediately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    There may be more going on here than I am aware of, but basically pedal feedback is a function of "chain growth", or how much the rear axle moves relative to the bb during suspension compression.....On a given bike, running a 32t in front and a 32t in back would provide half as much pedal kickback as if you were running a 16t in front (if that existed) and a 32t in back. It's really just a ratio, and a 22/32 combo would give you roughly 65% more "kickback" than my 32/30 combo would.
    That is an very understandable explanation. It seems small gear climbers will always experience the chain growth more due to multiplication of the force by the gearing.

    Sorry to geek out but it is fun. I await your next video and review from ledgy terrain
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  65. #65
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    Hey Tscheez, what modification did you make to the right knob of your Lyrik?

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    Good stuff TS. FWIW I have a DW Spot and a Banshee Rune. The pedal feedback is really noticeable in the granny ring on the Rune not on the Spot. As for climbing I think the DW climbs way better that the 5.5 Spot and 08 RFX that I owned. Our climbs are short but steep and chunky. I attribute it to the anti squat more than anything. I always thought the TNT bikes to be squatty and wallowy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-Works
    Hey Tscheez, what modification did you make to the right knob of your Lyrik?
    The fork shown in some of the vids is a Zoke 55 ATA. I put a piece of tubing over the ATA knob to keep my fingers from bleeding. The fork feels awesome during the 20 minutes I can keep it running between services. It's going back to Marzocchi again right now to get more guts swapped out.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    Good stuff TS. FWIW I have a DW Spot and a Banshee Rune. The pedal feedback is really noticeable in the granny ring on the Rune not on the Spot. As for climbing I think the DW climbs way better that the 5.5 Spot and 08 RFX that I owned. Our climbs are short but steep and chunky. I attribute it to the anti squat more than anything. I always thought the TNT bikes to be squatty and wallowy.
    Good feedback. I always think a rider's local trail conditions dictate what bike setup they need and how they will perceive any bike's performance. Context is everything.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    The fork shown in some of the vids is a Zoke 55 ATA. I put a piece of tubing over the ATA knob to keep my fingers from bleeding. The fork feels awesome during the 20 minutes I can keep it running between services. It's going back to Marzocchi again right now to get more guts swapped out.


    Good feedback. I always think a rider's local trail conditions dictate what bike setup they need and how they will perceive any bike's performance. Context is everything.
    I always thought the DW Spot climbed quicker and more efficiently than my '07 Spot and I attribute it as well to the anti-squat of the DW. Although I could never quite put my finger on it, it makes sense if my '07 stayed down in its travel over the uphill chunk my legs weren't getting full extension while seated.

    For example, on my never-squats Superlight over a 1/4 mile moderately uphill rockfest, I'd get to the end invigorated with the exertion. On my '07 Spot, even though it "melted" through the chunk I would get to the end completely exhausted. Very mysterious but real.

    Downhill was, of course, a completely different matter but I'm so slow descending the Spot's abilities were lost on me. To me the DW Spot would be the best of both worlds.
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    it makes sense if my '07 stayed down in its travel over the uphill chunk my legs weren't getting full extension while seated
    I'm not sure I follow this. The distance between the saddle and the pedals never changes (unless you are on a URT or Monolink bike, etc). You could take all the air out of the rear shock and ride it bottomed and the bike's geometry would suck, but the saddle to pedal distance would stay the same, and so your leg extension would also not be affected.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I'm not sure I follow this. The distance between the saddle and the pedals never changes (unless you are on a URT or Monolink bike, etc). You could take all the air out of the rear shock and ride it bottomed and the bike's geometry would suck, but the saddle to pedal distance would stay the same, and so your leg extension would also not be affected.
    I have to admit I never experimented with your theory, I just figured a shock bottoming out brought the seat closer to the pedals. Anyway, any theory you might have for my exhaustion from spinning seated through the chunk vs no exhaustion spinning on my Superlight would be appreciated. Another theory I had was that the Spot was doing its damdest to activate and make plush all the bumps and that took energy away from me, the Superlight wouldn't activate nearly as much (which didn't bother me at all) and didn't suck energy.

    I did enough side by side comparos of this sort to convince myself that the Spot wasn't for me, being a self-professed climber and not a descender.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    I have to admit I never experimented with your theory, I just figured a shock bottoming out brought the seat closer to the pedals. Anyway, any theory you might have for my exhaustion from spinning seated through the chunk vs no exhaustion spinning on my Superlight would be appreciated. Another theory I had was that the Spot was doing its damdest to activate and make plush all the bumps and that took energy away from me, the Superlight wouldn't activate nearly as much (which didn't bother me at all) and didn't suck energy.

    I did enough side by side comparos of this sort to convince myself that the Spot wasn't for me, being a self-professed climber and not a descender.
    My $.02 is that your position on the Spot was not as efficient for climbing as the Superlight or your burner. I really doubt that suspension alone would explain the differences in perceived exertion. What the extra squat on the pre DW 5 Spots would do is put you in a more upright, possibly less efficient climbing position. If there's a difference in wheels and tires between the 2 bikes, that would make a big difference in effort. When I switched from burly wheels and tires to lighter wheels and tires, the bike completely changed in character. It went from a bulldozer that I felt could plow through anything I wanted it to, but was a little bit of a beast to climb, to a more responsive, playful feeling that climbed as well as my lighter bike.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    There may be more going on here than I am aware of, but basically pedal feedback is a function of "chain growth", or how much the rear axle moves relative to the bb during suspension compression.....On a given bike, running a 32t in front and a 32t in back would provide half as much pedal kickback as if you were running a 16t in front (if that existed) and a 32t in back. It's really just a ratio, and a 22/32 combo would give you roughly 65% more "kickback" than my 32/30 combo would.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    That is an very understandable explanation. It seems small gear climbers will always experience the chain growth more due to multiplication of the force by the gearing.

    Sorry to geek out but it is fun. I await your next video and review from ledgy terrain
    Thats interesting stuff....

    I was always curious how this applies to a Rohloff setup. If Im running a 36x16 and spinning in lowest gear (say 1.3 ratio) It seems like I am able to negate the effects of a ~22/34...

  73. #73
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    I just went back and changed the braking behavior paragraph in post #56 after paying closer attention to the dw's behavior when applying only the rear brake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    No, but we don't have any superchunk or shelfy climbs here at home to really test that.

    I did do an experiment, however:

    I put the bike in a "climbing gear" (32t middle ring in front and the 2nd cog 30t in back), locked the rear brake by taping the lever to the bar, and removed the rear shock. Cycling the suspension from full extension to full bottom-out the cranks rolled back about the equivalent of one click of my King rear hub, or 5 degrees. In other words, I could get the cranks to roll back the same distance if I didn't compress the suspension but rather let the freehub move back one ringdrive engagement point. Note that this was with a FULL suspension cycle, from topout (no sag: a full 7.5" i2i) past bottom-out (the rear triangle yoke resting on the seat tube: a bit beyond 5.5" i2i). BTW- I don't know anyone who pedals through that range of suspension compression.

    I did the same experiment in the same gear with my Horst Spot and the cranks moved back roughly half a King click, or 2.5 degrees. So the Horst bike has approximately "half" as much pedal feedback in that gear as the dw bike. I don't have a high/forward single pivot handy to compare what sort of feedback one of those would produce. I do know that high/forward single pivots like the SC Heckler make my knees explode when climbing shelfy trails, so I have felt feedback before, but neither the Horst Spot nor the dw Spot make my knees feel funny.

    I really don't know if my numbers mean much, and I'm sure someone will tell me if I'm looking at the wrong thing. I also can't say if all the dw pedal "feedback" happens at some critical point in the travel around sag where your friend could feel it, or if it is distributed throughout the travel. I can't feel it, but I also never felt it in most VPPs I have ridden and some other people complain about those. It is also useful to point out that the gear you are in makes a big difference. If you are climbing in the granny ring in front and the big cog in back, the pedal feedback will feel a lot stronger than if climbing in the middle ring in front and the same cog in back (on the same bike). I generally climb in the middle ring, so I may reduce my exposure to pedal feedback a bit.

    Just out of curiosity, I "mapped" the axle path by taping a sharpie in the rear dropouts and moving the suspension on the dw bike from a shock i2i of 7.5" down to 5.5". The travel with a full 2.0" stroke shock is 143mm, or 5.63 inches. I measured the BB at 352mm or 13.8 inches with the Lyrik U-turn racked out to 160mm of travel and some reasonably fat tires. Not that this is necessarily instructive of anything, but it looks like this:

    Hi Tscheezy,

    Good to hear you're enjoying your bike.
    I'm going to pipe in my .02 on the pedal feedback. To really test for it,
    you need to be in the granny. Its most evident deeper in the trfavel

  75. #75
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    I decided to get a quick second opinion.

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/14690381?byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe>

    Diagnosis: the dw Spot gives Barny a clinical case of the shmooves.
    Last edited by tscheezy; 09-04-2010 at 04:55 PM.

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    Something tells me that you are the bike-buying junky in the family and that Barney would've been just as happy on the "old" Spot (and probably just as schmooove.)

    Are you coming down to interbike for some"definitive comprehensive" bike testing this year?





    Oh, and cool vid btw.
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    Something tells me that you are the bike-buying junky in the family and that Barney would've been just as happy on the "old" Spot...
    She likes her old Spot (and Flux). But she says the new Spot is plusher. She went from shmoove to shmooo-ooove.

    No iBike this year. Maybe some day again...

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    Nice vid, Tscheeze. What size is Barny's Spot?

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    Small. She's about 5' 6".

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    Thanks

    Great review as always! I just slapped a 2011 RS Lyrik U-turn on my DW Spot with just one ride so far but is was a good long ride (Downieville) which has many different types of terrain and I must agree that it feels like a good match. I must say I am at ease knowing that you feel it is the perfect match. I will get some more ride time in after this holiday weekend on my local trails where I will get a better feel for things.

    Thanks again for your thoughts.

  81. #81
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    Funny, we're going to hit D'ville next week. DT was up in Tahoe this weekend and we will just miss him and the whole demo van.

    Quote Originally Posted by KRob
    Something tells me that you are the bike-buying junky in the family...
    I should mention that I do seem to have created a serious bike snob in Barny. I mentioned that I was thinking of relacing some red King hubs into Stans Arch rims and that we could put on her dw Spot. She got pretty excited. How many SOs out there even know what "King" is?
    Last edited by tscheezy; 09-05-2010 at 01:43 AM.

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    [QUOTE=tscheezy]Funny, we're going to hit D'ville next week. DT was up in Tahoe this weekend and we will just miss him and the whole demo van.

    Hmmm timing? Well have a great time and let us know is you are coming to Marin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    How many SOs out there even know what "King" is?
    Don't know, but mine knows what Industry Nine is .

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    Cool, someone paid the yearly relevancy premium again.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    ....the dw Spot is plusher than the old Spot. Not a little bit, but really noticeably. I have been riding my old Spot and the new dw Spot off and on and the biggest difference is the coasting bump absorption. The dw bike has an HV air canister and yet I never push the o-ring off the end of the shock's shaft. I put the same shock on my old Spot and at the same pressure I bottomed the shock riding the same trails, and the o-ring fell off the end of the shaft. In fact I was never able to get away using an HV air sleeve on my old Turner bikes, instead always opting for the LV sleeves to control bottoming. Somehow I can use an HV sleeve on the dw bike and I have to say it feels great. I am ready to give credit where credit is due, and the two Daves did a super job executing on this one. I can run my body weight minus 20 pounds in psi just like my old bike, but the initial travel is plusher, and somehow it still ramps up smoothly late in travel using the exact same shock. This is the biggest standout feature for me and it is rare that I would say a bike feels like it has more travel than it does, but for me the new Spot delivers in this department.

    If you haven't already, give it a try at RTR - 30 lbs for rear shock pressure. I didn't fully appreciate the difference to the HL until realizing this tweak. The DWL comes alive even more, with more plush, and has great bump absorption while climbing. You'll perhaps push the ring off, or bottom a bit more and need to shim. As you noted, maybe the firmer settings are preferred for your trails, but the IMO, the DWL's traits shine at a bit less rear shock pressure vs. the older gen rigs.

  86. #86
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    My body weight -20psi is probably RTR -30 (or pretty close). I would not want to go softer because I don't like pushing the o-ring off the shock except in extreme cases, personally.

    I rode the bike with a medium compression tune, LV sleeve RP23 and it did not feel that good. Not sure if the compression tune or the volume was playing a bigger role, but I don't want to shim anything if I can avoid it at this point.

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    Update with new footage. Good stuff:

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/14690381?byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe>

  88. #88
    roots, rocks, rhythm
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    Nice work on the video!

  89. #89
    Rolling
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    After watching this video two million times, I did notice that Philip has trouble staying on the trail.

    But his videos are amazing...and you push the edge...Barny Should be proud.

  90. #90
    ~Disc~Golf~
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    Tscheezy, what's the track in the first (OG) vid?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Update with new footage. Good stuff:
    Good stuff is right.
    you got the good stuff brother - what a catch

    good vid too - ESP @ 1:40
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  92. #92
    Crazed Country Rebel
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    Tscheezy, what's the track in the first (OG) vid?
    Free Stress Test by Professor Murder - but he's edited the crap out of it.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  93. #93
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    Class, how are you filming the shots from above?

  94. #94
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by toons101
    Class, how are you filming the shots from above?
    I have a little zip line I can pack around with me and set up quickly. The camera goes down the line on a small shuttle suspended from a pair of pulleys.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    Free Stress Test by Professor Murder - but he's edited the crap out of it.
    Yeah the DJ Tscheezit Remix is much better
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  96. #96
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    On behalf of all the men I'd like to thank you for the "Barney Booty Cam".

    In all seriousness though. Nice videos.

  97. #97
    nocturnal oblivion
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    I pointed out that Barny rides to my girlfriend, does that make me shallow? Beautiful vids. Love the hiking across the island.

  98. #98
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    Thanks for the pics. Now I need to go make one myself.

  99. #99
    Just roll it......
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    Killer vid Ts. Would love to see more detail about your zipline setup.

    Word.
    EB

  100. #100
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme
    Would love to see more detail about your zipline setup.
    I'd be happy to, but I'm on the road right now and all my stuff is at home. I'll be home in about a week. If I forget, remind me late next week.

  101. #101
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I'd be happy to, but I'm on the road right now and all my stuff is at home. I'll be home in about a week. If I forget, remind me late next week.
    Make a video of the zipline filming itself

    By next year this time, tscheezy will be making HD, HDR, 3D movies. Hollywood will be consulting him.

  102. #102
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    Loving the vids tscheezy. Good stuff.

  103. #103
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    I swear if I had known about the trails on KI when I lived there the B&B would have gotten a lot less of my money. Seeing vids of the Rock makes me miss it a little. I really miss Val's wife's chowder out at the Rendezvous too.

  104. #104
    My cup runneth over
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    Pretty impressive getting Barney to wear the 'beanie' camera in that second video.

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Make a video of the zipline filming itself
    I know (think) you made this in jest...but it would be an awsome piece..

    I, myself would love to see bits like that - good call LIDAR
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  106. #106
    No, that's not phonetic
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    We just spent 2 days in Downieville and did 3 laps. Day one was down Sunrise, down Butcher Ranch, UP Pauley Creek (whew), down Big Boulder Creek, down Second Divide, down Third Divide, down First Divide. Climbing Pauley Creek gave me a chance to feel for kickback in the granny ring and 32 tooth in back. I may have felt a tug once or twice, but it seemed mild and ephemeral. Nothing to write home about. The second day we went easy on the climbing and just did two laps on the classic downhill swapping out different sections of 2nd and 3rd Divide.

    Barny definitely agrees that the dw Spot it smoother than her old Spot. She really likes it and thinks there is no reason to hold onto her old frame. The standover on the new frame is much better, though she does get some heel rub on the drive side chainstay.

    Sunrise:



    Big Boulder Creek:





    Second Divide:







    Another triumphant arrival in Downieville.


  107. #107
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    I think I hate you
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  108. #108
    No, that's not phonetic
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    We rode our favorite Tahoe loop today. It was not an overly rough ride, but I am still trying to find a shock pressure that will allow her to get a bit more rear wheel travel. I can get the o-ring all the way down on many rides on my frame, but even with ample sag she is still a good 1/4" of stroke away from bottoming, ever. I guess we'll try body weight minus 40 pounds.

    Topping out near Painted Rock:





    Some fun on the Tahoe Rim Trail:









    Going home along the Truckee River:


  109. #109
    Daniel the Dog
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    Nice photo's

    Northern California is sweet riding. Too get more travel on an air shock typically one lets some air out. Just a tip

  110. #110
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Too get more travel on an air shock typically one lets some air out. Just a tip
    Wait, let me write that down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Northern California is sweet riding.
    Yeah except for the altitude. Tahoe rides start at 6,000'. At home I hardly touch my granny ring and here I can't seem to shift out of it.

  111. #111
    Daniel the Dog
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    laugh

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Wait, let me write that down...

    Or Barney could gain some weight


    Yeah except for the altitude. Tahoe rides start at 6,000'. At home I hardly touch my granny ring and here I can't seem to shift out of it.
    Yaw, I was up a 7,000+ feet and suffering from thin air and an old set of lungs. I'm not sure which were creating the need for the granny and 34 ring.

  112. #112
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Great pics.

    I miss riding bikes

  113. #113
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    Great job on all the vids and write ups.
    Speaking of write ups. If you get a chance to do a Zipline write up, please do.
    I would love to see your setup cause it is looking quite smooth in some of the vids.
    Thanks.

  114. #114
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Ok, here it is. The shuttle is a length of plastic that I simply bolted a RAM ball mount to, and on either end is a small pulley. I dremeled a slot in one side of each pulley so I could slip the shuttle on and off the fishing line. The line itself is a spool of 300 yards of 100 pound test dacron halibut line. I put a dowel through the spool secured on either side so it would spin on the dowel, and I put a small bolt through one flange so I could crank the spool and take the line up again quickly when I am done.







    The line has an eye in its end that I have put a basic metal snap on. A couple of feet up the line is another eye. This is so I can loop the end of the line around a tree or branch and put the snap through the second eye and secure the end of the line without having to tie a knot. A couple of feet further down the line I have a short length of bungie attached that has a plastic washer on its end. The washer does not fit through the pulleys, so as the shuttle runs along the line and then along the line AND bungie, the bungie stretches and acts as a soft stop. You can see it better in the video below. I spool the line out to another tree and give the line about 10 wraps around a branch. That seems to offer enough friction to hold the whole mess. Otherwise I tie a trucker's hitch and a sheet bend.

    BTW, Barny suggested the music. Is she trying to tell me something?

    <iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/15046586?byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe>

    Last edited by tscheezy; 09-17-2010 at 01:27 AM.

  115. #115
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    Now that was a good writeup. Along with video. Thanks.
    I think Barney and my wife would get along great if she picked that song. My wife thinks I'm a nerd sometimes for going into the forest and filming myself...
    Another nerd riding...

    Hehe. Thanks for the writeup though, much appreciated.

  116. #116
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnofriendsx
    I gotta say, that is some very sweet riding and some really excellent editing. Super job.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I gotta say, that is some very sweet riding and some really excellent editing. Super job.
    Thanks,
    Your zipline stuff has inspired me a bit.
    I am out to the hardware store this weekend.
    I didn't really think that stuff was possible really by yourself. And i have TONS of stuff that i film myself. Ziplines would be a perfect addition.

  118. #118
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Coming up with a remote release to allow the shuttle to start down the line without upsetting the system (bounce or swing) would be key to filming yourself. Overhead or shots where the zip line is not next to the trail would be tough if you had to let the thing go and then run to your bike and hop on.

    I'll mull it over.

  119. #119
    Now with flavor!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Update with new footage. Good stuff:

    <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/14690381?byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe>

    Holy crap.....I just saw this.


    That's one of the best shot bike vids ever!


    I'm going to watch that about 20 times......I think I know how you got most of those shots but there are one or two that still have me scratching my head (definitely not zipline)
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  120. #120
    My cup runneth over
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I gotta say, that is some very sweet riding and some really excellent editing. Super job.
    Agreed. Thanks for sharing.

  121. #121
    Too Much Fun
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    Good job! Rare combo: the nerd and rider in me inspired on both fronts

    TS, as a film geek and a rider, this is the tops. Great stuff. Haven't been on mtbr much lately and this thread once again proves that inspiration is around every corner, or click sometimes. Love seeing both the rides and the tech, all the better that you're such a DIY fiend. LOVE IT!
    - -benja- -

  122. #122
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    Holy crap.....
    You could have gotten her autograph if you hadn't gone slinking off to hide in wheezler.

  123. #123
    CoolArrow
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    Cool write-up on the Turner, very cool. Thanks for posting the link and sharing your awesome set-up, it will be a great help.
    Cool BandolArrow

    Jerry Hazard – website

  124. #124
    Rolling
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    Fast times in Kodiak.....

    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    I know (think) you made this in jest...but it would be an awsome piece..

    I, myself would love to see bits like that - good call LIDAR

    And tscheezy makes our visions and wishes reality.

    The candyman can. He is the mtbr candyman.
    Last edited by lidarman; 09-19-2010 at 10:02 PM.

  125. #125
    Rolling
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    Since you are into sharing, will you share your editing software and vibration reduction techniques? You have a lot of smooth motion in your videos...places it would be hard to imagine.

  126. #126
    No, that's not phonetic
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    I use iMovie and apply its built-in stabilization feature where it seems appropriate. It's a balancing act because stabilizing video tends to crop the image, make it soft focus, and can sometimes add a jello effect.

    For the most part I try to start with smooth footage. That helps a crap load. No magic, just carefully shot.

  127. #127
    Rolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I use iMovie and apply its built-in stabilization feature where it seems appropriate. It's a balancing act because stabilizing video tends to crop the image, make it soft focus, and can sometimes add a jello effect.

    For the most part I try to start with smooth footage. That helps a crap load. No magic, just carefully shot.

    Got it Seems adobe has the same thing going on. I agree...good shoots need little recovery. You are a master.

  128. #128
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Too get more travel on an air shock typically one lets some air out. Just a tip
    Mark your calendars. Jaybo was right.

    Partly, anyway. We ran Barny's HV RP23 on her old spot at about 110psi for her bone crushing 130 pound weight. I started at that pressure on her new Spot, but we got less travel on the same trails from the new bike. I dropped the pressure and finally, thanks in part to Jaybo's brilliant tuning tip (the check is in the mail ), I dropped it some more. She's at 85 psi now: 65% of body weight. The other thing that happened was that I swapped the shocks between our dw Spots. Mine was the older HV model that lacks the shims Fox installs at Turner's request. Hers was the newer one with the shims. I gave her the unshimmed shock and that helped get more of the travel from the bike. I didn't mention the new developments to her and during today's ride she volunteered how amazing the bike rode. Plush and smooth. Even after the ride she was all smiles over the suspension feel. She's not a bike geek in any real sense, so if she calls my attention to anything other than poor shifting or a brake rubbing (so that I can fix it for her) I am amazed.

    Long story short: light riders out there, take any shims out of the shock and drop the pressure crazy-like. It will feel good. Really good. Barny super-approved.

    I still am happy running about 90% of body weight (175psi for ~195 pounds), but I do go faster and tend to run into things a lot harder.

  129. #129
    No, that's not phonetic
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    This is why I have always ridden Turners (and King hubs): coastal Alaska is wet. Often.

    Today we did a 28-miler with more river crossings than I care to remember. Here are a few...



















    Try that with a bearing equipped bike day after day.

    Some of the climbs were very rocky with water flowing down the trail. I rode my Flux and Barny took her Spot. She had a noticeably easier time on the climbs than I did because she had bigger tires at lower pressures, more suspension that was more supple, and she could just sit and power through loose, rolling chunk than I could on my skinny, hard tires and firmer suspension. She really digs her bike.

  130. #130
    ~Disc~Golf~
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    YO, Eazy-Tscheezy, post these is this old thread - Great Snaps!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy View Post
    Ok, here it is. The shuttle is a length of plastic that I simply bolted a RAM ball mount to, and on either end is a small pulley. I dremeled a slot in one side of each pulley so I could slip the shuttle on and off the fishing line. The line itself is a spool of 300 yards of 100 pound test dacron halibut line. I put a dowel through the spool secured on either side so it would spin on the dowel, and I put a small bolt through one flange so I could crank the spool and take the line up again quickly when I am done.







    The line has an eye in its end that I have put a basic metal snap on. A couple of feet up the line is another eye. This is so I can loop the end of the line around a tree or branch and put the snap through the second eye and secure the end of the line without having to tie a knot. A couple of feet further down the line I have a short length of bungie attached that has a plastic washer on its end. The washer does not fit through the pulleys, so as the shuttle runs along the line and then along the line AND bungie, the bungie stretches and acts as a soft stop. You can see it better in the video below. I spool the line out to another tree and give the line about 10 wraps around a branch. That seems to offer enough friction to hold the whole mess. Otherwise I tie a trucker's hitch and a sheet bend.

    BTW, Barny suggested the music. Is she trying to tell me something?

    <iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/15046586?byline=0&portrait=0" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe>

    I know, this is from three years ago... lol.. But I'm trying to figure out what those pulleys original purpose was for! I built a rig today using some sliding door pulleys, but I love that you cut the side out for easy install/removal... Anybody know what an appropriate name for those pulleys would be?

  132. #132
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    Great thread thanks for bringing it back!

  133. #133
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    so whatever happened to tscheezy anyway???...he used to post up great videos.
    whatever...

  134. #134
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    Re: Tscheezy's definitive comprehensive dw-link 5-Spot review

    Quote Originally Posted by steadite View Post
    so whatever happened to tscheezy anyway???...he used to post up great videos.
    His vids were awesome. Don't see much anymore. Bummer.
    CRAMBA Chairman

  135. #135
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    I finally had a chance to ride a DW Spot after owning the original 5 Spot (2003 HL) for almost 10 years. The DW is a great ride, but I still much prefer the HL version. The only advantage that I found with the DW version is not sinking into the travel while climbing.

    The new shocks out there completely take care of that issue. The braking and plushness of the HL is superior to the DW.

    All in all, I prefer HL versions of the 5 Spot to the DW. I wish that DT still made bikes using HL, but we know why he doesn't / can't. Bummer.

  136. #136
    Kiwi that Flew
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts View Post
    I wish that DT still made bikes using HL, but we know why he doesn't / can't. Bummer.
    Maybe for their 25th anniversary Turner could put out a polished HL 5.Spot?
    (Plus the 20 year patent period expired this year on HL so no need to pay the big S)

    In my experience my HL Flux was plusher than my DW until I replaced the pivots on it, and then the DW came alive...My DW Spot has never left me wishing for more plush, but I did do the volume reduction modification to save it from blowing through the mid stroke so fast...

    Still - the HL Turners are classic. Just wish my Flux HL was not broke. Damn that aluminium and its fatigue life...

  137. #137
    Lay off the Levers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts View Post
    I finally had a chance to ride a DW Spot after owning the original 5 Spot (2003 HL) for almost 10 years. The DW is a great ride, but I still much prefer the HL version. The only advantage that I found with the DW version is not sinking into the travel while climbing.

    The new shocks out there completely take care of that issue. The braking and plushness of the HL is superior to the DW.

    All in all, I prefer HL versions of the 5 Spot to the DW. I wish that DT still made bikes using HL, but we know why he doesn't / can't. Bummer.
    Holy cow talk about a voice from the past!

    HEY HOWDY BLUE!!!! HOW YOU DO???
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  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltdan12a View Post
    I know, this is from three years ago... lol.. But I'm trying to figure out what those pulleys original purpose was for! I built a rig today using some sliding door pulleys, but I love that you cut the side out for easy install/removal... Anybody know what an appropriate name for those pulleys would be?
    Check with a boat/marine supplier for those pulleys, I think they just call them rigging pulleys.

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltdan12a View Post
    I know, this is from three years ago... lol.. But I'm trying to figure out what those pulleys original purpose was for! I built a rig today using some sliding door pulleys, but I love that you cut the side out for easy install/removal... Anybody know what an appropriate name for those pulleys would be?
    Snatch block
    Drink beer all day

  140. #140
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    Thanks everybody, found them at my local Tractor Supply!!!

  141. #141
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    ... and if we just ... cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltdan12a View Post
    Thanks everybody, found them at my local Tractor Supply!!!
    great!

    ciao

    Add a photo or whatever.......

    Remove a part and add something else....
    Last edited by guru1234; 02-18-2016 at 09:15 AM.

  142. #142
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    cooooool

  143. #143
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    Old thread, pulled out of nowhere. Odd. But honesty, tscheezy is one person this board misses. I wonder what happened to him?

    And NuBoy. Although I know what I hope happened to him! (:
    It is the Right of the People to Alter or to Abolish It.

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Old thread, pulled out of nowhere. Odd. But honesty, tscheezy is one person this board misses. I wonder what happened to him?

    And NuBoy. Although I know what I hope happened to him! (:
    NuBoy was inspired by Caitlyn Jenner and is now known as NuGirl

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Old thread, pulled out of nowhere. Odd. But honesty, tscheezy is one person this board misses. I wonder what happened to him?

    And NuBoy. Although I know what I hope happened to him! (:
    Pretty sure somebody is trying to get their post count up in order to create new threads.

  146. #146
    Kiwi that Flew
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Old thread, pulled out of nowhere. Odd. But honesty, tscheezy is one person this board misses. I wonder what happened to him?

    And NuBoy. Although I know what I hope happened to him! (:
    tscheezy was last seen Fat Biking on Kodak island, Alaska.

  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanopatoni View Post
    tscheezy was last seen Fat Biking on Kodak island, Alaska.
    Well tell him to get his ass back to a keyboard.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so please forgive the typos that occur when typing with two fingers.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

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