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  1. #1
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    Sticky pivots on 5 spot

    Can anyone help with some advice please?

    I bought a s/h 5 spot in the summer - it rides pretty well but I have never been happy with the plushness of the rear - it has always felt overdamped. I've had the RP3 shock serviced - even with the damping on min, the rebound is very damped.

    I think the problem is due to stiction in the pivots - I've stripped, cleaned and lubed (prep M) them all with no improvement. With the shock disconnected the rear is still very stiff. I've noticed that away from the frame, the shafts are a nice sliding fit in the bushes, however when they are installed in the frame, the shafts are so tight they can't be rotated by hand.

    Does anybody know if the bushes can swell up with age? I'd like to try new bushes but a bush kit is 75 - I don't think I need to replace the shafts, bolts etc, only the bushes. Are the bushes available on their own - has anyone found out if they are a standard glacier bush, or something similar? I've found a DU bush that seems to be the same size as the main pivot bushes, but have'nt been able to find anything to suit the chainstay bushes.

  2. #2
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    Call Turner or write a post for Tscheezy

    Rattler,

    I would call Turner directly for their advice - sounds like it may be a LD call for you from the UK - but they are fabulous to talk to.

    As an alternative, write a post, "Paging Tscheezy" in this forum - he is very responsive and has spent soem amount of time on Turner bushings, including an interesting modification he developed and I believe that Turner picked up as standard.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
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    I had the same problem with my Flux, very stiff, turned out the shafts were too short, the rocker on the seat stay and seat tube was bottoming out on the yellow bush rather than the shaft, this in turn caused the bush to rotate in the pivot shell as opposed to the shaft in the yellow bush.
    It wore the shell a little but luckily i caught in early.
    The shafts apparently are supposed to be a hair longer than the shell and bushings combined.
    After i got longer ones(.2mm longer) i had to run 5 more clicks of rebound as it was so free of stiction.
    I saw a thread on here a while back where Turner said the frame should colapse with just the slightest weight from one finger on the seat with the shock undone.
    Ring Chris at roundelmtb he is the UK importer and a top bloke.
    Hope that helps.

  4. #4
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Yeah, I wouldn't have much to add other than to say if you have the rear wheel removed with the bike in a stand and the upper shock bolt out so you can cycle the suspension by hand, and it does not move with gentle hand pressure, then something is too tight.

    The tolerances are like 0.005" (or something). If every piece is on the fat end of the range, the combination may make things sticky even though the individual parts are in spec. Shafts never slide into the pivots with just finger pressure in my experience. I always have to "screw" them in with a 6mm allen unless they are worn out.

    Anyway, Turner will likely fix you up. Send them an email outlining the situation or call em up. They are great to work with.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  5. #5
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    I had a similar experience with one of the big pivots on my spot. After verifying that the shafts weren't too short as described above, here is what I did:

    1. Remove pivot shaft.
    2. Clamp 6 mm allen vertically in vice.
    3. Place shaft on allen wrench.
    4. Slightly sand down the outer diameter of the shaft using some emery cloth and the classic "Underdog Shoeshine Motion".
    5. Flip the pivot shaft over on the allen wrench and do the other half of the shaft.
    6. Reassemble the pivot and check.

    This worked great for me, and the pivot remains smooth, but without any slop, over a year later. It takes awhile to get this right, but it's a good rainy day, winter project.
    Whining is not a strategy.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    The tolerances are like 0.005" (or something). If every piece is on the fat end of the range, the combination may make things sticky even though the individual parts are in spec.
    That's would seem to be the most likely explanation. I had this issue a few years ago with my XCE. Called Turner, they sent a new shaft and bushings, problem solved.

    The weird thing is I just noticed my 5 Spot doing the same thing. Turner is sending me a shaft and bushings again, but I do find this curious that it occurred on two of my bikes.

    For me the shafts were stuck in there pretty good- it took whaling on it with a punch and mallet for several minutes to get it out. Is there any chance I could have caused this myself, or do I just have really bad luck with this?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  7. #7
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    The tolerances are like 0.005" (or something).



    Yep, i just dug out the email i got from the UK importer and he said Turners reply was "the shaft should be 0.003 to 0.008 longer than the shell and bush combo......"

  8. #8
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    So just how freely should the suspension move when the shock's unbolted?
    I can cycle mine by hand with no issue but it doesn't collapse under its own weight. I've always thought that was the norm, especially since I had a front tri warrantied and reassembled with the old rear at Turner.
    Big hoopy.
    Turner Sultan / On One Inbred

  9. #9
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    Just unbolted my shock to grease the pivots and the bike collapsed easily under it's own weight. I rechecked that I had the proper torque on all the bolts and they were to spec. I just replaced all bushings, shells and bolts with Turner's kit about two months ago so this may account for the smoothness and lack of stiction. FYI - This is a HL rear end.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    For me the shafts were stuck in there pretty good- it took whaling on it with a punch and mallet for several minutes to get it out. Is there any chance I could have caused this myself, or do I just have really bad luck with this?
    Doubtful you caused the damage, but I wouldn't be whaling on the pivots, especially the HL or TNT pivots unless the stay is off the bike and well supported.

    You may want to try the 'deadbolt press' for those sticky HL or TNT pivots. First remove the seals and clean the area with a rag. Push a 10-24 x 1 3/8" bolt through the shaft and place the PVC on the other side centered over the bushing. Place an appropriate washer over the PVC and attach a nut. Tighten the nut and the shaft should come out with VERY little effort in a few seconds (Warning: this method isn't tcheezy endorsed or Turner approved - use at your own risk ):
    Last edited by deadbolt; 12-02-2006 at 06:57 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by WV_XCE
    Just unbolted my shock to grease the pivots and the bike collapsed easily under it's own weight. I rechecked that I had the proper torque on all the bolts and they were to spec. I just replaced all bushings, shells and bolts with Turner's kit about two months ago so this may account for the smoothness and lack of stiction. FYI - This is a HL rear end.
    Huh. Mine's always been like that. Even when the HL rear was on my Burner.
    Anyone else?
    Maybe I should phone up the authorities...
    Big hoopy.
    Turner Sultan / On One Inbred

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadbolt
    Doubtful you caused the damage, but I wouldn't be whaling on the pivots, especially the HL or TNT pivots unless the stay is off the bike and well supported.
    It was the rear rocker/upper seat stay pivot. I tried to steady the rear triangle with my free hand, so hopefully the stays/other pivots didn't sustain too much stress.

    I probably should have devised a method to press the shaft out.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRocker
    Huh. Mine's always been like that. Even when the HL rear was on my Burner.
    Assuming no lateral play, I would think the smoother the better.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    It was the rear rocker/upper seat stay pivot. I tried to steady the rear triangle with my free hand, so hopefully the stays/other pivots didn't sustain too much stress.

    I probably should have devised a method to press the shaft out.
    I don't think I'd worry too much about the upper pivot. A good idea would be to thread an Allen head bolt into the shaft so as not to damage the shaft, threads or bushings with the punch (if it's that tight).

    I definitely wouldn't want to be bangin' on the HL or TNT pivots though...

  15. #15
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    Thanks for your help everybody - I'm going to have another go at taking everything apart again. I phoned Chris from the UK importer Roundel and he advised me to check the cleanliness of the bores in the frame and also to selectively assemble the bushes and shafts so that the clearances are the same all round.

    I posted the same question on Singletrackworld and quite a few people advised to get the shock "pushed" as the 05 RP3 is known to be overdamped - I'm going to find out about this if I've still got the problem when the pivots are a bit looser.

  16. #16
    No, that's not phonetic
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    I personally don't think the rear end should sag under it's own weight. That would seem to me like sorta loose pivots. Having to shove hard to get it to move isn't good either.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    Assuming no lateral play, I would think the smoother the better.
    Smoove

    The rear doesn't sag under its own weight (on a rack for example) but it does sag easily with the bike on the ground. That's goodness as far as I know.
    Big hoopy.
    Turner Sultan / On One Inbred

  18. #18
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    I stripped down my frame just for cleaning and general maint and found that I needed to play around with which top hats went with the shafts. Ten mins fiddling around had things working. Also ordered a new full bearing kit and it was 50.

    I have had an RP3 also and have not experienced the "over damped" sensation mentioned earlier.

  19. #19
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    I noticed the same travel stiffness once during a pivot servicing. I calipered the pivot shafts on a couple and saw that the very ends were mushroomed to a larger diameter, I'm guessing I had previously way overtorqued the torx screws (I tend to do that) and squished the aluminum pivot shaft out to where it would bind a bit in the bushing.

    I did a version of what kosmo describes above, though in a lathe, and the suspension travels very smoothly since. One of these days I'll get around to buying new pivot shafts.. And, I'm using a torque wrench now to tighten the srews.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinewheel
    I'm guessing I had previously way overtorqued the torx screws (I tend to do that) and squished the aluminum pivot shaft out to where it would bind a bit in the bushing.
    Aw crap, I bet that's what I did. There's no way the pivots came from Turner like that, they never would have gotten the shafts in without serious force. I thought I must have done something to contribute to/cause this problem, and your explanation makes sense. Sounds like I owe Turner for a couple of pivot assemblies.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  21. #21
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    mushrooms

    If the shaft is not mushroomed and it is still tight and you want to fix it right there in the garage first check to see if the shaft is slightly sticking past the faces of the bushings. If the bushings are wider than the shaft then you need to sand the bushing faces. If it is a frame pivot then just wrap some emery cloth around a file and hold it flat. Don't over do it!
    If the shaft is the right length and it will not turn well, then tape the leading edge of a couple inches of emery cloth on a drill bit. Of course you want over 2" of width on the bit or small piece rod so that both bushings get sanded at the same time. Then give the drill some short bursts holding the bit/rod straight and it will take some material out and loosen up the pivot.

    This system is tuneable in your garage, and if you over-do it you are not hurting any of the permanent frame pieces. Tolerances are tight so do not mess with the frame.

    DT

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