Results 1 to 39 of 39
  1. #1
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128

    SRAM spoiled... Shimano surrendered

    Okay, I'm defeated. I have both SRAM and Shimano drivetrains. Had them for a long time. Used to like em both.

    Last night I was recomissioning my Spot after months of waiting to be rebuilt hoping to be ready for a flatlander XC ride today.

    For the life of me I could not get the frigging XTR drivetrain right!!! I've done this a thousand times in 15mins and I spent hours with very inconsistant results.

    Somebody help me out here:
    XTR pods, (3yrs old) New cables, housings, chainrings & chain. Checked the hanger with a DAG, the XTR cassette had one slightly bent cog which I fixed.

    Problem: Rear Der won't drop down to smaller cogs well.
    I followed the installation instructions carefully, set the high and low limits. The housings are perfect in length and friction. The pods seem to be working fine.

    If I set the cable tension so it downshifts (climbs up to the next bigger cog) smoothly it is very reluctant to drop back down to the smaller cogs. B tension looks good. Everything is perfectly clean, chainline seems appropriate and frankly is what I've been using for years.

    Any tips on what's holding me up here?

    Oh BTW, since I put all the burly parts on my RFX my spot went from 36+ to 29.6 lbs Woohoo I'm a weigh weenie now... Another discovery: The difference btwn the Selle Itiallia potato chip butt-slicer and the couch comfortable WTB Laser Ti is only 20g!!!
    Itallia saddle for sale...only been ridden thrice...still has that new leather uh...fragrance (classifid ad soon)
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,368
    New chain + old cogs = shifting problems.

  3. #3
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
    Reputation: mtn hack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,285
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    New chain + old cogs = shifting problems.

    That is not the problem he is describing. Even an extremely useless cog and a new chain will shift fine on the stand.


    BZ, have you checked the derrailluer hanger yet?

  4. #4
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    I checked the hanger with a Park DAG... it's dead straight.
    The Cassette does not have much wear, even if it did, the wear would be on the upper half as I almost never get beyond that point. The problem affects all cogs. (cept the smallest of course.)
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  5. #5
    FleshwoundGravityResearch
    Reputation: mtn hack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,285
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I checked the hanger with a Park DAG... it's dead straight.
    The Cassette does not have much wear, even if it did, the wear would be on the upper half as I almost never get beyond that point. The problem affects all cogs. (cept the smallest of course.)
    '
    'Reading would help; sorry.

    The other thing I have had happen recently is that on new install the cable gets stretched and then needs retensioning. But it sounds like you have started at the beginning of the install process a couple of times so....?

    How old is the der? I have had ones in the past that just seem impossible to setup that I determined was due to poor spring tension.

  6. #6
    Bite Me.
    Reputation: cutthroat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,531
    weird - I find that Shimano's recommendation to start in the second smallest cog and turn out the barrel adjuster on the RD until you hear the chain start to skip then back off one turn is bit of overkill and can cause downshift problems (downshift meaning going to a smaller cog). Maybe back off the barrel tension another turn?
    Maybe the RD spring is broken or not connected somehow?
    Did you clean the tacky goo off the chain before installing ?
    Got a spare RD to swap out and experiment with?
    To many donuts?

    EDIT - one further thought (ouch), I wrestled with a gal's rear derailleur for what seemed like hours one day pre-race and finally figured out that she had wacked the derailleur cage and bent the link between the pulley wheels and the RD body. the thing was toast and as soon as I installed a spare I had in the box, it shifted perfectly.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  7. #7
    Bodhisattva
    Reputation: The Squeaky Wheel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,565
    Zilla,
    Don't know what your exact problem is, but my XTR pods crapped out suddenly after roughly 3 years of use. In fact, what you're describing is almost exactly what happened to me.
    At that time the new SRAM stuff had just been released out so I went with SRAM and haven't looked back.
    Truth be told, I still prefer the older XTR RR design but prefer X.0 to the newer XTR stuff

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: AndyN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,108
    My bros XTR rear derailleur crapped out after about 3 yrs also. The problem (as he explained it to me) was an internal spring had worn out/broken and is apparently so difficult to replace it's not worth it.


    Edit: More info is coming back to me now, it was a B-tension screw related problem that my buddy had. I did a quick search and confirmed that they are almost impossible to replace/fix.
    Last edited by AndyN; 09-15-2006 at 01:37 PM.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: wmbarace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    231
    Zilla High Normal or Low Normal .....

    CM

  10. #10
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,313
    Shimano uses relatively light springs in their ders to achive the "light action" downshifts at the expense of crisp upshifts. This issue gets especially bad in the little cogs where the der spring is already almost totally relaxed. Placing a shim spacer between the der and hanger (to move the der outward) will put the spring in a tiny bit stronger position to pull outward. The SRAM ders using a 1:1 pull ratio can use stronger springs since the shifter has a lower leverage to overcome the der tension.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  11. #11
    ~~~~~~~~
    Reputation: airwreck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,873
    all of our rear rapidfire pods have worn out. They click but nothing happens. I've heard of people fixing this but my attempts have ended up just making things worse.

  12. #12
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
    Reputation: cactuscorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    12,942
    worth a try. open up the pod, spray liberally with a aerosol cleaner thats kind to plastics, blow dry with air (make sure yer compressor isnt full of water), drip some light lube inside, close up and try it again. shimano uses some kinda thick grease that tends to gunk up and after some time its becomes almost glue-like. a handfull of dirt added to it doesnt help much. clean this crap out and often times yer good to go.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  13. #13
    ~~~~~~~~
    Reputation: airwreck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,873
    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    worth a try. open up the pod...
    lose little tiny screws...

    or better yet, send to shimano, they lose package and claim no resposibility...

  14. #14
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
    Reputation: cactuscorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    12,942
    do not loose the little tiny screws. i dont care what airwreck says. hes short anyway and ya know never to trust short people. well thats what randy newman says.

    use a magnetic tip screwdiver if ya can and still be super careful. i trap em with my fingertip on the tool and cup a hand under the pod.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    726
    The XTR rear derailleur has screw for selecting between two different spring tensions. If you have yours in the low tension position, you might try the high tension position.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16
    Time flies...
    Reputation: xjbebop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,206
    Quit wasting your time w/ that Sheeite-mano poo and git yerself some new X9 parts
    ...every day sends future to past...

  17. #17
    Never enough time to ride
    Reputation: squish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,568
    Hey zilla,

    One other thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, check for small kinks in your cable, especially just as it exits your shifter pod. I run into this all the time in the shop on new bikes, and the symptoms are exactly what you describe.

    Keep us posted.

    happy trails...

    squish
    Get out and ride!

  18. #18
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    Thanks for the tips folks. I'll check em all.

    Funny thing is I had these on my RFX for a short while just a couple of months ago. It shifted fine but the banging was driving me nuts so I put the X.0/X.9 kit back on.

    -The cable and housing is brand new freshly cut. No kinks unless I stepped on it during installation. ...but I'll look for kinks anyway.

    -The chain is new and still has the goo on it. I really like the factory lube, it never gave me a problem in the past.

    -I fully appreciate the SRAM 1:1 system... I can set and forget it in just a few minuets. I can even do a crap job and still have it run smoothly with just a turn or two on the barrel. The Shimano is not only much more sensitive but at times seems to defy logic. Extra turns will tune it, or not at all, or make it worse, and then taking the turns off it won't go back to the initial behavior... it's like voodoo.

    -I just remembered I have a low mileage XT der on my hardtail which has only seen road use... I may yank it to test.

    -The XTR is the classic kind, lower tension=smaller cog.

    -My hardtail had some XTR pods that went bad but the indexing went away... not the case here. These pods and der are 3yrs old but only have about 1.5 years of use as I went to SRAM and mothballed them.

    -I didn't know there was a spring tension adjuster, is that a recent addition? I'll look for it. It sure seems like it could use more tension to drop back down.

    If this frustrates me much more, I'l have to get another SRAM kit... muy 'spensive fix though, considering this stuff really isn't all that worn.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  19. #19
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    Oh yeah, quick question to save on the experimenting:
    which way yields which change on the spring tension adjuster?
    CW=More or less?
    Is there only two settings?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Oh yeah, quick question to save on the experimenting:
    which way yields which change on the spring tension adjuster?
    CW=More or less?
    Is there only two settings?
    There are only two settings, a 180 degree turn apart. EDIT: I just double checked both of my derailleurs and it appears that it doesn't matter which way you turn it (CW or CCW). It just goes round and round switching back and forth between both positions with each 180 degree turn. I think they ship in the low tension position. If you pay attention to the location of the end of the spring in each position, the spring is noticeably further back in the high tension position. As far as I know this is a feature of XTR derailleur only (unless Shimano has recently added this feature to their lower end models). I don't know how long they have had this adjustment, but the derailleur in the picture is from 2002.
    Last edited by Backmarker; 09-16-2006 at 06:34 AM.

  21. #21
    jl
    jl is offline
    climb
    Reputation: jl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,292
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Somebody help me out here:
    XTR pods, (3yrs old) New cables, housings, chainrings & chain. Checked the hanger with a DAG, the XTR cassette had one slightly bent cog which I fixed.
    My guess: the b-spring in the derailler has slipped out of position. I had to have a professional fix mine. Odds are it will happen again later...
    We don't need more to be thankful for; we just need to be more thankful.

  22. #22
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    Thanks BackM... I'll fiddle with it today.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  23. #23
    banned
    Reputation: Article 48's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    682
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    the frigging XTR drivetrain
    There is your problem. Check the latest news flashes. SRAM 7 and 9 series work as well as, or better than, XTR. If bling you must, then 0 series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Oh BTW, since I put all the burly parts on my RFX my spot went from 36+ to 29.6 lbs Woohoo I'm a weigh weenie now... Another discovery: The difference btwn the Selle Itiallia potato chip butt-slicer and the couch comfortable WTB Laser Ti is only 20g!!!
    Itallia saddle for sale...only been ridden thrice...still has that new leather uh...fragrance (classifid ad soon)
    I found that the 5-Spot built light (28-29 lbs) feels plenty capable on techie stuff but climbs like a hematocrit-boosted pro roadie.

    And I found that after age 35 or so, the Selle Italia Flite or other ass-mandolin (see french cooking apparatus, not musical instrument) can be used only on the road bike and then only if the pavement is pristine.

  24. #24
    Brass Nipples!
    Reputation: Bob the Wheelbuilder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    2,006
    One more thing you might try is to degrease all the derailleur parallelogram pivots with WD-40, blow them dry and then regrease with tri-flo or similar, then carefully wipe up all of the excess. That's rehabbed many a Shimano rear derailleur for me. I think the pivots get gummed up with time.

    I didn't know there was a spring tension adjuster. Higher tension should certainly help with your problem, too.
    {Principal Skinner} Hmm. Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
    {Martin} And a sloppy speller too. The preferred spelling of 'wiener' is w - i - e - n - e - r, although 'e - i' is an acceptable ethnic variant.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: nwmtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,168

    good tip

    Quote Originally Posted by cactuscorn
    worth a try. open up the pod, spray liberally with a aerosol cleaner thats kind to plastics, blow dry with air (make sure yer compressor isnt full of water), drip some light lube inside, close up and try it again. shimano uses some kinda thick grease that tends to gunk up and after some time its becomes almost glue-like. a handfull of dirt added to it doesnt help much. clean this crap out and often times yer good to go.


    damn good tip cactus, this usually works for me too. Damn shimano grease....i also notice a difference in the crispness of the shift during the winter months, but once we get rid of that thick grease on those light action shifter springs it typically brings back NEW LIFE to an old or cold shifter.



    later, Chad

  26. #26
    Never enough time to ride
    Reputation: squish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,568
    Yeah that little adjust screw really makes a difference the only problem is I don't think the newer generations with the shiny annon finish have them. But if you all still have the older ders, definatley give it a shot, the difference is noticeable.

    happy trails...

    squish
    Get out and ride!

  27. #27
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    Half fixes and full discoveries.

    I can indeed see the spring strech when turning the screw inside the parallelogram. The tighter setting seems to have improved things to ~95%. It drops down quite reliably now. up shifts could use a tweak or two, and I've found in the past it's always needed some ride-time tweaking to get it 100% so I think Backmark has nailed it.

    Cleaning the shifter pods probably wouldn't hurt either.

    As loath as I am to admit, Dusty's also right. The cassette is showing it's worn state by occasional skipping under power in the largest cog.

    I'll get it working eventually...and I'll also eventually end up with a Sram kit to match the one on my other bike.

    Thanks Folks

    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    299
    check your b adjustment screw as well. i've seen the derailer pulley at the 5 oclock position on the cassette in the smallest cog.

  29. #29
    ... I guess you won't be
    Reputation: jokermtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,940
    I've had that "everything is adjusted properly" shifting stall out/hang-up w/ my XT pods.....I finally figured out that the pod itself had worn out....

    I didn't want to buy a whole new pod, so I just bought the shifting actuator portion of the pod from here [link is for the XTR left shifter pod - and you can buy it online, just say so in the comments section if when ordering]

    https://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=3...ils&sku=LD0931



    You probably have it shifting almost 100% it seems, but just in case - you have an option....

  30. #30
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128

    Swatting Flies...

    Okay So far I've managed to prove throwing money at the problem does not help.

    Normally I'd just keep crushing away but I'm trying to get this dammed thing straight for a daytrip to the flatlands tomorrow, and I've been swapping and tweaking when time permits.

    Here's the current config:
    All new: X.9 Pods, X.9 Rder, XT 11-34cassette, XTR chain, 22 & 32T chainrings, cables and housings. Basically everything but the Fder.

    Here's the deal:
    * It shifts up and down crisply.
    * Now, it skips and jumps in the lower cassette. Every two or three pedal revolutions Even with barrell adjustments.
    * I checked the hanger again, it's straight. The housings and ferrules are new. B-tension is set to ~6mm from pulley-to-cog on the 34t. The chainlne seems straight from mid-cassette to middle ring. The High and low stops are correct.

    I will start over again, Maybe I futzed something up during a midnight tweaking session. But any other suggestions to look out for would be appreciated.

    Tnx.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Okay So far I've managed to prove throwing money at the problem does not help.

    Normally I'd just keep crushing away but I'm trying to get this dammed thing straight for a daytrip to the flatlands tomorrow, and I've been swapping and tweaking when time permits.

    Here's the current config:
    All new: X.9 Pods, X.9 Rder, XT 11-34cassette, XTR chain, 22 & 32T chainrings, cables and housings. Basically everything but the Fder.

    Here's the deal:
    * It shifts up and down crisply.
    * Now, it skips and jumps in the lower cassette. Every two or three pedal revolutions Even with barrell adjustments.
    * I checked the hanger again, it's straight. The housings and ferrules are new. B-tension is set to ~6mm from pulley-to-cog on the 34t. The chainlne seems straight from mid-cassette to middle ring. The High and low stops are correct.

    I will start over again, Maybe I futzed something up during a midnight tweaking session. But any other suggestions to look out for would be appreciated.

    Tnx.

    Sticky Link?

    Have you checked to see if you have a "sticky" or "tight" link in the chain? If you find one, just bend the chain back and forth (not too hard) a few times at the link to free it up.

  32. #32
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    Tnx,
    I'll check for it... seems unlikely. but anything's possible. the chain was fresh out of the box yesteday. I observed several revolutions on the workstand and didn't notice any links not feeding properly from the upper pulley to the cassette.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    667
    BE CAREFUL spraying cleaner into the pods. "Cleaned" my pods with a solvent last year I thought was kind to plastics and watched the thing just MELT AWAY, as if it were under a blowtorch. Yikes.

  34. #34
    Stand back
    Reputation: dbabuser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,200
    I had a similar issue w/ my x-9 drivetrain. (3 season old shifter/ rr der on my dh bike). We'd had an abnormally wet season here in CO and I'd been remiss on lubing the der pivots. A little lube and it was back to normal. Of course then a month later the thing snapped in half, but after 3 seasons I really couldn't complain...
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  35. #35
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    18,872
    Just for kicks, Zilla....

    If you happen to use Avid Flak Jackets, I've found the hard way that the wires that make up the housing, tend to fray and get into the cable stops, even of they have been properly cut out. The symptons are very alike to what you describe... the drivetrain makes nice downshifts at perfection, but it doesn't want to upshift.

    And yeah, it may be new cassette time for you now. In some cases, a new chain may skip for a while on an old cassette and will get back to normal in a few rides. If it doesn't happen, then you'll need a new cassette and chain. I learnt it the hard way too.
    Check my Site

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Prof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,165
    Try swopping the rear wheel for one off the Pack, maybe your hub is stuffed allowing the cassette to move ?
    Stay off the brakes

  37. #37
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    Quote Originally Posted by Backmarker
    Sticky Link?

    Have you checked to see if you have a "sticky" or "tight" link in the chain? If you find one, just bend the chain back and forth (not too hard) a few times at the link to free it up.
    BackM nailed it

    Brand new chain, fresh out of the box and one link was practacaly welded. I couldn't loosen it with the orig pin. I pressed out the pin and used a spare Shimano one-use brake-off pin. I still had to work it loose even with the new pin. No more skip. I don't have time for a test ride though. But I packed some spare pins, JIC. BTW, yes, I do use a quick link to join the chain.

    Warp, the cassette and chain (and everything elese) are brand spaning new. Zero trail time.

    Thanks for the help fellas!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  38. #38
    ... I guess you won't be
    Reputation: jokermtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,940
    UM.....Zilla fixed it.....

    anyway - I was going to suggest the sticky link thing, but I didn't want to look like I knew everything...

  39. #39
    Lay off the Levers
    Reputation: Bikezilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,128
    It worked flawlessly today 25+miles of fast swoopy singletrack. Continous shifting, used the whole cassette and 2 chainrings... never a miss, skip or drop.
    Aces!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.