Single pivot spot?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Single pivot spot?

    I switch rides up every couple of seasons and have always admired the turner 5 spot. So, I am checking out local dealers and one of the sales people for this shop that deals in turners, tells me that ever since turner ditched the FSR pivot locations it is now considered a single pivot bike and says to “stay clear or just save some money and buy a kona, which is the same.”, wow!! This is from a dealer.

    Anyway didn’t really think much of it until I heard the same thing again from another ex turner owner. What is the deal with this? Why would the new design be considered a single pivot by some?

  2. #2
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    I'm sure DT would like to know who these "Dealers" are.My guess is the guy most likely makes more money off of a Kona complete bike sale than he does on a Turner frame sale.CF..

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by southvike
    I switch rides up every couple of seasons and have always admired the turner 5 spot. So, I am checking out local dealers and one of the sales people for this shop that deals in turners, tells me that ever since turner ditched the FSR pivot locations it is now considered a single pivot bike and says to “stay clear or just save some money and buy a kona, which is the same.”, wow!! This is from a dealer.

    Anyway didn’t really think much of it until I heard the same thing again from another ex turner owner. What is the deal with this? Why would the new design be considered a single pivot by some?
    5Spot speaks for itself Im not gonna sell it, other than this any dealer like that is one I would not be doing business with! I got no issue with them calling it a Sp it shows there lack of knowledge something I find more and more common with LBSs, but comparing it to a Kona really is rich!
    And thats no dis to Kona but again shows a distinct lack of knowledge! Something that if youre in the industry you should have a few more beans about!

    Also good points CF..

    Some nice 5spot stoke here though!
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  4. #4
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    RC from mountain bike action also calls it a single pivot design. I have issues myself with this
    debate. On my Flux when I compress the rear suspension I can count five or six pivot points. The rocker pivots, so does the swing arm and what about the seat stays, shock mounts? What defines a pivot? any engineers want to chime in here? Oh buy the way RC did recommend the Spot over A VPP system [ Santa Cruz Blur Lt and Intense 5.5] and a so called four bar system [ Ellsworth Epiphany]

    I Really think all this BS is truly BS. From what I see most all XC race's are won on a Fing no debate hardtail .

    Any comfort here? yes. My Turner is the only rear suspension bike I have owned I did not have to F with the bearings and the PIVOTS every couple months or so, no squeaks, no mystery noises coming from mystery PIVOTS.

  5. #5
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    Why are people just refering to Turners because of the drop of the HL Konas? I think Konas are good, but in a different league. It's just the mentality that just look at the name of the recipe, now how good it was baked and how it tastes like..

  6. #6
    TLL
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    It is not a single pivot. Relocating the rearward pivot to the seatstay does not magically remove a few pivot points. Duh.

    I'd find another shop to deal with.

  7. #7
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    That guy that you spoke with at the LBS is a f*&cking idiot. I agree with the earlier poster in that DT would like to know who this "dealer" is. There is no comparison between Kona and Turner in craftsmanship, ride quality, customer service, and maintenance(I mean that Turner is better in case that wasn't obvious).

  8. #8
    trail fairy
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLL
    It is not a single pivot. Relocating the rearward pivot to the seatstay does not magically remove a few pivot points. Duh.

    I'd find another shop to deal with.

    Best engineering answer you'll ever get right there
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  9. #9
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    ACTUALLY there is a comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan_sykes81
    That guy that you spoke with at the LBS is a f*&cking idiot. I agree with the earlier poster in that DT would like to know who this "dealer" is. There is no comparison between Kona and Turner in craftsmanship, ride quality, customer service, and maintenance(I mean that Turner is better in case that wasn't obvious).
    They are both linkage driven single pivot bikes. Regardless of the design that you choose, unless you are buying the bike because you like the looks or he color, you should ride the bike and decide if you like the fit and the ride. If you can't tell the difference you should buy the cheaper bike. If you can't tell the difference, you probably don't ride that much and you might not appreciated the difference. If you ride a lot, you'll probably appreciate the benefits of the Turner.

    Because the chainstay is one piece (not a horst or a short link bike), the movement of the rear axel is in an arc. This is by definition a single pivot bike, the rocker makes it a linkage bike. Ellsworth sells bikes based upon his advertising rhetoric and Turner sells bikes based upon the ride and excellent engineering. (I am curious what dw version is going to be released). Call me green, call me old school, but my Burner rides great and I'm going to keep riding it for a while longer.

    cheers,

    Kane

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zkampyman
    They are both linkage driven single pivot bikes. Regardless of the design that you choose, unless you are buying the bike because you like the looks or he color, you should ride the bike and decide if you like the fit and the ride. If you can't tell the difference you should buy the cheaper bike. If you can't tell the difference, you probably don't ride that much and you might not appreciated the difference. If you ride a lot, you'll probably appreciate the benefits of the Turner.

    Because the chainstay is one piece (not a horst or a short link bike), the movement of the rear axel is in an arc. This is by definition a single pivot bike, the rocker makes it a linkage bike. Ellsworth sells bikes based upon his advertising rhetoric and Turner sells bikes based upon the ride and excellent engineering. (I am curious what dw version is going to be released). Call me green, call me old school, but my Burner rides great and I'm going to keep riding it for a while longer.

    cheers,

    Kane
    Ha, love how Specialized and Ew's advertising departments got to you as well. Linkage driven is the new flavor of the month to make FSR seem significantly superior to all others.

    I should dig up the debate I had with someone else over this some weeks ago. They have since disappeared.

    Turner isn't a "linkage driven single pivot". According to specialized and EW, changing that pivot magically removes all others and automatically turns it into a Commencal, Giant VT, Cube, or one of several other designs where they actually have a single unsupported pivot and swingarm and linkage only to drive the shock.

    Silliness.


    As far as the ride is concerned, the top three main pivots about the rocker actually make more difference to the ride than the HL.

    This is not 1997, people. Get out of the Specialized advertising campaign. I think they haven't put up an ad about it in specifics in many years. The rest is the propagation of the seed in the mtb fan base. So they did a number on you guys, instilling a belief, now the people themselves debate and make up reasons for superiority. It's to the point (and you can also check through the forums) where people with Giant NRS's and GT LTS's are arguing about how they're "Classic Horst Link" bikes and how great they ride under pedaling and braking.

  11. #11
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    The TNT bike is a single pivot. Period, the shock however is actuated by a rocker which allows the rate of the shock to be manipulated by the designer, dependent upon the relative length of the rocker arms and the placemant of the rocker pivots.
    Does it make a difference in my opinion, No as I have 2 Five Spots Horst Pivot and TNT set up pretty much identically.

  12. #12
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    yes and no...

    If you are counting from the power source (cranks/bottom bracket), to the axle, it is a single pivot. If you want to count all the pivots points on the bike linkage outside power to axle, well, there of course are many. For anyone to simply count pivot points and say that A = B is ridiculous at best. I've seen plenty of Wal-mart bikes with plenty of pivots...

    My guess would be Fred is right on this one, or the guy didn't want to take the time to build up a custom Turner.

  13. #13
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    So dogvet, you have both, you can put then by one another, then you declare one a single pivot?

    Let's look at this another way: You have a virtual pivot, virtual instant center, or in automotive, you have the A4 front suspension and variants having virtual axes far outside the confines of the car. So let's say you have an HL that doesn't function as an HL, as many iterations don't, then is it still a single pivot or is it a "four bar"?

    Then let's get to the C'dale Scalpel, with a pivot further down the CS, using flex. Single pivot?

    Now, let's explore the designs from Giant (VT), Cube, Commencal, and several others where you have a swingarm (high pivot), then you have a linkage that ONLY operates the shock and offers no supportive function to the chainstay, such as what Turner has in their design. So you claim the rocker only operates the shock? Does it do it magically, or is there another linkage you're omitting from the equation only because the rear dropout pivot is above the axle?

    This is pretty much exactly like the Simpson's episode where Homer is drinking a beer on the front lawn, and then Chief Wiggum drives by and asks him what he's drinking. Homer quickly puts a brown paper bag over the beer, and suddenly Wiggum can't see it and starts asking where the beer went.

    Same thing, but different.

  14. #14
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    Zkampyman is correct. Any form of Pivot or movement (cannondale scalpel)between the main pivot and the axle may well alter its predetermined arc,so no longer a true single pivot
    The difference in ride between the 2 spots I cannot tell,but you may be able to.

  15. #15
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    Some people would call TNT a single pivot because of the axle path being in an arc with a constant radius that's detirmined by the pivot point. In this case the pivot at the chainstay and seat tube (machined bottom bracket) junction.
    I will say the TNT manipulates the shock in a much differant way than my single pivot Gary Fisher Joshua.

    I like to think of TNT as "4 bar" to separate it from more simple designs.

    What beer?
    Cheers!

    Building soon..........

  16. #16
    TLL
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    Quote Originally Posted by zkampyman
    Because the chainstay is one piece (not a horst or a short link bike), the movement of the rear axel is in an arc. This is by definition a single pivot bike, the rocker makes it a linkage bike. Ellsworth sells bikes based upon his advertising rhetoric and Turner sells bikes based upon the ride and excellent engineering. (I am curious what dw version is going to be released). Call me green, call me old school, but my Burner rides great and I'm going to keep riding it for a while longer.
    So I'm wondering, what does relocating the pivot to the chainstay (ala Horst) turn the bike into?

    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    Best engineering answer you'll ever get right there
    Well, evidently not, but I am qualified to play an engineer on TV.

  17. #17
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    RC from mountain bike action is an idiot. That's the sole reason I stopped reading that magazine. I've owned a single pivot, SC Heckler, and now own an RFX and they ride completely different. I had a lot of brake jack on the heckler, not a bad thing just a trait of the single pivot, and I can't recall any brake jack on my RFX. I'm done rambling now.
    I'm here for the downhill

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLL
    So I'm wondering, what does relocating the pivot to the chainstay (ala Horst) turn the bike into?
    Apparently a Rocky Mountain RM7 or something.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fermenter
    I will say the TNT manipulates the shock in a much differant way than my single pivot Gary Fisher Joshua.
    one minor detail..the Joshua is a URT (Unified Rear Triangle)


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    one minor detail..the Joshua is a URT (Unified Rear Triangle)

    Yep, I'm betting all the money I just invested that my Turner will ride much better!

    But that URT does hold the axle path in a fixed radius detirmined by the pivot location as some people like to classify "single pivot".....The point I was trying to make is both could be called single pivot....I don't think it is horrible to call TNT single pivot just not how I would like to classify things.

    No disrespect to Kona, but just not the same thing as Turner.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by fermenter
    But that URT does hold the axle path in a fixed radius detirmined by the pivot location as some people like to classify "single pivot".....The point I was trying to make is both could be called single pivot....I don't think it is horrible to call TNT single pivot just not how I would like to classify things.
    I see what you meant now.....it's just that URTs are usually "classified" different from SPs.. but I do see your point...

  22. #22
    TLL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Apparently a Rocky Mountain RM7 or something.

  23. #23
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    khs

    Quote Originally Posted by southvike
    I switch rides up every couple of seasons and have always admired the turner 5 spot. So, I am checking out local dealers and one of the sales people for this shop that deals in turners, tells me that ever since turner ditched the FSR pivot locations it is now considered a single pivot bike and says to “stay clear or just save some money and buy a kona, which is the same.”, wow!! This is from a dealer.

    Anyway didn’t really think much of it until I heard the same thing again from another ex turner owner. What is the deal with this? Why would the new design be considered a single pivot by some?
    If you really want a cheap Horst Link bike get KHS .

    I went from HL lover to TNT acceptor and back to a steel hardtail. I like the 29er hartail because I do not have to sweat whether my suspension design is SP, HL, DW, TNT, FAux Bar, URT, Brain, blah, blah, blah.
    Sit and spin my ass...

  24. #24
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    I think the point here is that it's accepted by the industry that anything where the axle rotates around a single axis is a single pivot.

    The debate about linkage-driven single pivot, or non-linkage driven (e.g. Orange 5, Patriot, 223 etc) is a different argument.

    Bike shop numpties that don't understand (or can't be bothered to do their homework) may regard all single pivots as the same, when in reality they ride very differently - ask anyone who's owned or ridden the 3 bikes below (I have) if they ride the same:

    5.5 Spot

    Orange 5

    Commencal Meta 5.5


    All are "single pivot" - all have ~5 ins travel

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hookler
    RC from mountain bike action is an idiot. That's the sole reason I stopped reading that magazine. I've owned a single pivot, SC Heckler, and now own an RFX and they ride completely different. I had a lot of brake jack on the heckler, not a bad thing just a trait of the single pivot, and I can't recall any brake jack on my RFX. I'm done rambling now.
    I stopped reading it when I found out he was sponsored by Specialised!
    I agree with your first statement! Its all marketing in that mag!
    I buy Dirt Decline when its available which is not often here! mags by riders for riders, oh and a little old rag in NZ called Spoke!

    Quote Originally Posted by TLL
    Well, evidently not, but I am qualified to play an engineer on TV.
    Well said anyways
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  26. #26
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    Then there's this previous discussion:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...t=single+pivot
    Who's in charge, the thinker or the thought?

  27. #27
    Roy
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    On deck is the next DT needs to go DW-link thread.

  28. #28
    TLL
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy
    Then there's this previous discussion:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...t=single+pivot
    Forgot about that one. Love the derailment at the end.

    "Excuse me stewardess, but I speak jive."

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    On deck is the next DT needs to go DW-link thread.
    It HAS been a week or so ... seems overdue!!

  30. #30
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    Single Pivot ? so.... :rolleyes:

    Characteristics of a bike are made of many variants.
    Head angle, standover, seat tube angle, bb hight, top tube length, chain stay length, suspension rate and leverage, suspension behavior and many more, among them is the rear axle path.

    The rear axle path affects the following characteristics:
    square edge hits (rolling resistance over obstacles)
    Chain elongation => suspension squat under pedaling AKA "Bobbing" (pedaling efficiency)

    Companies do their best to blow out of proportion this single topic to promote their sales.
    This creates the "simple is bad" impression among many riders.

    I will let you judge by yourselves.

    Here are two images:

    The first one comprises of charts for the rear axle paths of 8 different bikes.
    Notice that the charts are distorted, the X axis scale is magnified by 10.

    The second has all the charts resized so both X and Y axis has the same scale.

    Can you tell the difference?

    Fact is that those characteristics are noticable for many riders, however, they are only part of what makes a bike handle like it does.

    Go out and ride your bikes and enjoy it instead of arguing who's flavor is the tastiest....
    Attached Images Attached Images
    A different angle on bikes:
    www.ofanaim.net/has.html

  31. #31
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    According to the graphs, my Heckler rides almost exactly like a 6 Pack. Sweet! That'll save me some cash.

  32. #32
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    Excellent post Saar G7.

    Suspension design and the different advantages associated with different platforms can be a very cloudy area due to the amount of influence that corporate marketers can exercise over the innate techno-junkie nature of the modern mountain biker. After years of riding various frames, I've come to the conclusion that frames can get so carried away on paper that the end goal of a stiff, responsive, fun bike is somehow missed all together.

    As far as classification, defining a single-pivot frame is simple. It's all about how many pivots characterize the movement of the real axle. That is it.... And on a late model TNT turner, there is only one single pivot (at the BB - main pivot). Any frame with a constant radial arc of the rear axle is a "single pivot" frame. Shock actuation position, actuation and linkages only affect leverage ratio and center of mass, although this has a HUGE influence on the way a rear end responds.

    For this reason, I always hated ventanas and turners... and their overly-emphatic owners. On paper, I couldn't understand how these frames could ride any better than any other "single pivot" bike, unified rear or not. Then I rode one. Now I own one. And you couldn't get me to trade it for any other 4" bike on the market. Period.

    There is more to a frame than suspension design. Dave Turner nails frame design square on the head.
    Last edited by NWfreeride; 07-31-2008 at 01:40 PM.

  33. #33
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    lololol, the six pack looks startlingly similar to an ICT bike.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    lololol, the six pack looks startlingly similar to an ICT bike.
    That's because it apparently is
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  35. #35
    trail fairy
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    Finally a graph, now I can sleep at night!


    Get a Highline!
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