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Thread: Rant?

  1. #1
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    Rant?

    I have owned and ridden a 5 Spot bike for about six months now and wanted to say some things about it that are better suited for this forum vs. the reviews section on mtbr.com.
    With that in mind I'll explain the "bad" first and then the good, so as to end on a positive note.

    The "Bad".
    The bike doesn't ride magically or anything, duh. But with all the hooplah and hype, I was expecting the bike to somehow ride better than it does; when, in fact, a few years back, I had a Horst-linked Jamis Dakaar that rode as good (if not better) than this bike. What else, well, I'm starting to wonder if I might have done better by getting a Whyte - designed Marin quad link or similar design. The horst linked bike doesn't have that "trap door" effect, that, at least theoretically, sounds like an awesome effect for climbing up rocks and all kind of nasty stuff. The horst doesn't kick, but it doesn't have that trap door effect to help me up and over, either. And usually when I'm going up that stuff I am in granny ring, so that effect would really help a alot!
    Instead I have to rely on my combination of power and finesse, but I'm lazy, I want the bike to help me! (no I don't want a motor)

    Based on what I've read in reviews, in terms of other bike brands, the Rocky Mountain ETSX line of rigs has that trap door effect as well.
    I'm still a bit pissed at myself for paying so much for frame only when I could have gotten a complete bike for that, and probably gotten same or better performance and similar geometry too, or adjustable geometry. Oh speaking of that, I think the bottom bracket on the Spot is just a tad bit too low, another half inch would be good. I adjust for it, but why should I have to? And the extra bottom bracket height wouldn't hurt the singletrack railing of the bike one bit, nada, zero. I guess it may be offerred on the 5 Spot RD (redesign).

    I still wonder about the move from Horst to non-horst. I also wonder about the "argument" of his pivot design vs. high quality (Enduromax for example) sealed bearings. I think the sealed bearings are just fine; and, his argument that "we could pad our little pockets with all the money we would make selling replacement kits" is a bunch of BS, for sure. I really stand by this one. And I think almost every manufacturer that used them (Enduromax bearings) would stand by it as well. He/they, should update their website and come up with a more convincing ENGINEERING and FUCNTIONAL reason, because, again, I think the Enduromax sealed bearings are just as good, if not better, than the Turner design bushing system. Both have to be replaced eventually, so maybe it is 6's on that? And the lateral stiffness argument won't play either, as bikes with high quality bearings are plenty stiff, if the bike is designed well. Even a single pivot.

    The Good
    Well, one look at a Turner and it's very obvious the high quality of the bike: the machining, the quality of the stays, design, etc. Even someone who does not bike can look at it and see it, either consiously or subconsiously, see the high quality. BUT, same goes for all the high end brands like Titus, etc. Right? Right! In fact, looking at a mass-producer, Specialized is getting better and better, and the 2007 Stumpjumper looks really good. Only diff is that you can't lower the seat all the way. But I bet the Specialized rides just as good if not better... These last two sentences might be more at home in the "Bad" section, but functionally, fit better here, in this context.

    I did want a strong, high quality bike that will last for a long time if that makes any sense, so I think I did achieve that by purchasing this bike/frame.

    I have one more rant: They should not charge an "upcharge" for colors. Do other manufacturers to that? They charge an upcharge, maybe for some colors, or for anodizing (Santa Cruz, Titus), but not across the board. Is this a fair passing off of extra process costs to the consumer? I don't think so. Just stock more F'n colors!

    Still, I do respect someone for going off on thier own. Furthermore, and truly most important (to me), I know Mr. Turner has been through (and survived and probably learned and grown from) hard personal times, in the past. Like almost the most difficult there is, but unfortunately so prevalent. Yet through that he kept mind, body and company intact, and grew his business. I truly do respect that, a lot! Kudos to him, for that. However, I'm not 100% convinced on the marketing hype as stated above, and don't know that I could reccomend the bike/frame, in good conscience - esp. to someone with a specific buget who would do just as well with getting more for their hard earned dollars!

    Okay, can't avoid studying anymore. Rant over. Discuss!
    Last edited by mtnbkrdr98; 11-05-2007 at 07:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Weapon of Choice
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    Wanna trade your 5 spot frame for my stumpy?

  3. #3
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Going to Interbike and riding 20+ high-end bikes back to back over two long days is pretty eye-opening. Every bike is a little different, for sure. And there are no super bikes, of the 40 or 50 I have tried, anyway. Some just work better for some individuals than others. Plenty of people move between brands and suspension designs, and it sounds like you have your next move planned. Vive la difference.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    Discuss!
    From the pic you posted your tire has bulged and the fork has almost bottomed over a pissy little roll down, maybe work on your setup?

  5. #5
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    I know about you and have heard you are a very skilled rider and very good mechanic, so I do respect your opinion and thank you for your response. I actually don't have any move planned (unless lottery winnings are coming; however, based on the odds I don't play much!). I plan to keep the Spot for a very long time, but I have to admit I am intrigued by the other designs I mentioned, esp. the Whyte design, and ETSX with the new, more relaxed geometry.

    Do you care to elaborate a bit more on which bikes you tested at Interbike? (say take 5 or 6 of your favorites for ex.), and their designs and what you liked vs. did not like? I would be interested to read it.

    I think that if I was Turner, I would be very happy to have customers such as yourself, that strongly back the brand and say what you said!
    Last edited by mtnbkrdr98; 09-03-2006 at 05:41 PM.

  6. #6
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    Daryl, could trade you my prophet........Nahhhh Ya wanna ride tomorrow sometime??

  7. #7
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    hmmm. It's steeper than it looks in the pic, and is one in a series; although not close to what I have done, or am capable of doing. But to respond, I did change out the pissy Fox Float, no wait doesn't deserve capitalization: fox float rl, for a Sweet Rock Shox Revelation that I really like. I probably "should" have went with a Pike, and actually might sell the Rev and get a Pike, although I am getting a big bike for the big trails and bigger moves, a Transition Dirt Bag, so the Spot can keep doing XC duty.

    btw: do you always criticize, or did you just feel you were simply objectively commenting on your observations?

  8. #8
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    What up Lonne? Got your email was going to email you from my Yahoo!
    Anyway, I have a ride planned and you are invited. A group is going to shuttle Eastside/Connie and is meeting at CB Park at 11. I should be there but if I'm not, should be a pretty good sized group. 11am.

    How you doing?

  9. #9
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    One other thing - didn't mean to come across back at you as rude so apolgize if I did. Who are the 2 sweet lil honeys exchanging tongues?

    Gotta love it, wanna be part of it

  10. #10
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    sounds good

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    What up Lonne? Got your email was going to email you from my Yahoo!
    Anyway, I have a ride planned and you are invited. A group is going to shuttle Eastside/Connie and is meeting at CB Park at 11. I should be there but if I'm not, should be a pretty good sized group. 11am.

    How you doing?

    Sounds fun. I've never done that ride. Always wanted too tho. Just been studying alot....SUCKS!!!! Haven't ridden since I met you guys up on RI the other night. Been tooooo busy.....

  11. #11
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    I hear that, but investments for now and the future are a good thing! I'm studying too, for that cert, but am taking off to go get a movie - it's long weekend, WTF!!!!

    Probably good catch up time to get your BSU work done huh?

    Okay, hopefully will see you tomorrow!

  12. #12
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    I should be there tomorrow. Really wanted to do tamarack. Maybe next weekend. See ya tomorrow

  13. #13
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Ironically among the many bikes I have tried, the ESTX and Quad-Links are not among them, and my DW time is limited (and was not pleasant).

    I personally think that faux bars (tried piles), Horst links (ridden many), Maestros (two demos), and VPPs (ridden a bunch) are all viable suspension strategies. I am not a high/forward single pivot (tried a bunch) devotee because of the pedal feedback it causes, and I have not liked a single one of the Mav Monolinks I have tried (3 of them). I think that using chain force to reduce suspension movement is a cool concept and I have liked all the VPPs I have ridden as they do a very admirable job masking pedal feedback, unlike h/f SPs. But whether or not the need to supress suspension movement is a real issue is in the rider's head, imo. If you cannot deal with pedal "bob" and it impacts your riding experience, by all means get a VPP or similar. If you just don't care (for instance you don't want ANYTHING to inhibit suspension movement), go for a more chain-tension neutral design.

    My favorite bikes? Well, limited purely to 5 to 6.5" travel full suspension bikes in 26" wheel format, I would have to say (in no particular order) the 5-Spot and 6-Pack (TNT or Horst, makes no diff to me), the 6.6 (but NOT the 5.5), Switchblade and SuperMoto, Reign, Knolly Delirium, Yeti 575, Cove Hustler, and there are others. The Heckler would make the list if it weren't for the pedal feedback issue. Awesome bike otherwise. Oddly I have never liked the Ventanas I have tried, and some would try to convince you they are Turner TNT analogs. I am hoping to get another crack at a DW link bike as my last experience was pretty bad.

    The bikes we demo tend to be boutique bikes, and heavily influenced by which brands pique our interest (read as: screw Ells ) and actually bother bringing a reasonable sized fleet to the demo. It's freaking embarassing how few rigs some manufacturers show up with. It's like they don't want anyone riding their stuff.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    btw: do you always criticize, or did you just feel you were simply objectively commenting on your observations?
    Was just offering some observations on why it might not ride like you want.

    Alot of people blame the bike when its just not setup right, a few psi of pressure in forks and tires, more or less comp and rebound damping can make so much differance, not to mention small things like stem length, angle your bars are roated, sweep, position of seat/rails etc etc but you probably knew that.

    I don't own a spot, wish i had the spare money to get a nice XC frame, but alot of people on here do and pay alot of money for them, you don't often hear pepole saying they don't like them (besides dusty bottoms and crazy fred) so when i do the first thing i think of is the setup must be wrong.

    For example on my turner DHR (im more DH then XC). I had a 550lb spring on the rear and thing was chattery as hell, bucked me when hit hard, gave me sore feet. I put a 450lb spring on, full preload, turned up the comp damping and bam, spot on, tracks the ground perfect. It would have been easy to blame the bike if i didn't know better.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cave dweller
    From the pic you posted your tire has bulged and the fork has almost bottomed over a pissy little roll down, maybe work on your setup?
    Ditto.

    Looking at the picture one can see that your front end is not properly setup, you also have a DHX Air out back which can be quite tricky to tune. No bike will have magical ride qualities no matter how much time is spent tuning them to perfection, but any bike can be made to ride like $hit with the twist of a few knobs and too little tire pressure.
    Last edited by AndyN; 09-03-2006 at 06:23 PM.

  16. #16
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    mntbkrdr98, its too bad you have the impression that you do. Like TS said, everyone has their own impression of a particular sus design. I have to say that I really like my 5 Spot and the way that it rides. Although, I did have to do some experimenting with shock setup, tire pressures, seatpost ht, stem length, etc. to find that "sweet spot". But, this is common with most bikes that I have ridden. Not one has been THAT bike where you can ride and feel 100% at home right away.

    Now, I dont know how much experimenting that you did with your setup, but some of the issues that you have with the bike are obvious to the "window shopper" (im not calling you a window shopper). For example, the price of these frames are nothing to blink at. They are very expensive. But, this is a known fact and should be no surprise. Also, upcharging for different colors is no big deal in my mind. If someone wants a non standard color, paying for it is an option. If you dont want to pay, dont, and live with the standard color choices. Look at some of the other manufacturers where there is only one color PERIOD. There is no option to pick a color, so paying for a different color is fair imo.

    When the topic of BB height comes up for the Spot it gives me flashbacks, and it should. Many people have posted their feelings on this issue. I for one have also noticed the lower BB of the Spot, but I have adjusted. Many people say that they shouldnt have to adjust when paying this much for a frame, but dont we all adjust, at least a little, when riding a new bike?

    In the end it is personal preference. Its too bad that the spot hasnt lived up to the hype in your eyes and hopefully you will find a combo that does. I say, dont give up on it yet, keep experimenting. Look at some of these clowns in here and what they do to their bikes to get them just right. Maybe some of these recommendations will make your spot feel like THAT bike.

    Best of luck in your experimenting.

  17. #17
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    bearings/buschings

    "I also wonder about the "argument" of his pivot design vs. high quality (Enduromax for example) sealed bearings. I think the sealed bearings are just fine; and, his argument that "we could pad our little pockets with all the money we would make selling replacement kits" is a bunch of BS, for sure. I really stand by this one. And I think almost every manufacturer that used them (Enduromax bearings) would stand by it as well. He/they, should update their website and come up with a more convincing ENGINEERING and FUCNTIONAL reason, because, again, I think the Enduromax sealed bearings are just as good, if not better, than the Turner design bushing system. Both have to be replaced eventually, so maybe it is 6's on that?"

    I'm sure a search will be informative on that issue. I'll give you my 2 cents, my shop sells Kona, Klein, Santa Cruz, Intense and Turner, not tons, but a few bikes. I do sell and replace alot of Santa Cruz VPP bearings, Intense as well. EVERY Klein hogs out in no time. Konas hold their own, more reliable in general than the VPP bikes. But the Turners just go season after season, tight and squeak/creak free. Whatever DT has going on with his busching system, it is a clear winner, and I really stand by that.

  18. #18
    No, that's not phonetic
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    I dunno. That roll down looks like a total wheel-wedger a la Aqua's granite exploits. The fork is not bottomed even though his entire body is poised at the tipping point over it and I am guessing he is coming to an abrupt stop and praying for a successful roll out. Not the sort of situation you could "tune for" or that I would even seek to find myself in.

    Sounds like he put the Spot through it's paces and doesn't feel like the ride is worth the $$. That's fair enough. What I think is not entirely appropriate is to measure it against the theoretical performance of a suspension type he has not tried. Easily fixed: mtnbkrdr98, go ride a White or Marin or ESTX and report back. I do wonder why those designs are not more widely licensed. Is the ESTX still made? The Thrust-Link is not a very impressive system based on my time on it. It needed a small volume air shock badly.
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  19. #19
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    T,

    thanks for what you said!

    That is weird, if mfgs don't show up with enough bikes to test. Budget???? Maybe they want to minimize the number of rigs they have to discount sale after?

    Going to play around a bit more with my suspension settings. Take it easy up there in AK, Gods country!

  20. #20
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    Can I ask you for some ride advice? You mention that (my) entire body is poised at the tipping point over the fork. For drop downs, does it look like I should work on getting weight more down, like chest to back of seat? Thanks in advance.

    Also, I do think RM redesigned the ETSX - they upped travel to 5 or more I believe, and slackened the HTA to about 69 or a bit more relaxed with about 130mm fork. I would like to try it. I wonder too why that or more so the Marin design is not more widely known/used. What I do know is Marin doesn't have the marketing budget, or even close to that of like Giant, and not the close following of like Turner. umm, I think I also read that the suspension design is a falling rate design in the long travel setting - probably not desirable. Fine on the top end but bottoms I'm sure. I don't know if that's why it's not more popular. I know someone who has one and next time I ride w/him am going to try it and will report back, but by that time this thread may have died! I'll still report and do a very small reminder/reference to this thread. I"m more intersted in getting my Faux bar, Transition Dirt Bag and hitting some stuff that I've shied away from on the Spot!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    Can I ask you for some ride advice? You mention that (my) entire body is poised at the tipping point over the fork. For drop downs, does it look like I should work on getting weight more down, like chest to back of seat? Thanks in advance.

    Also, I do think RM redesigned the ETSX - they upped travel to 5 or more I believe, and slackened the HTA to about 69 or a bit more relaxed with about 130mm fork. I would like to try it. I wonder too why that or more so the Marin design is not more widely known/used. What I do know is Marin doesn't have the marketing budget, or even close to that of like Giant, and not the close following of like Turner. umm, I think I also read that the suspension design is a falling rate design in the long travel setting - probably not desirable. Fine on the top end but bottoms I'm sure. I don't know if that's why it's not more popular. I know someone who has one and next time I ride w/him am going to try it and will report back, but by that time this thread may have died! I'll still report and do a very small reminder/reference to this thread. I"m more intersted in getting my Faux bar, Transition Dirt Bag and hitting some stuff that I've shied away from on the Spot!
    Let me know how you like that Dirt Bag since it is on my list of future bikes as well. Did you get the build off of the Transition site, or are you specing it yourself?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    The horst linked bike doesn't have that "trap door" effect, that, at least theoretically, sounds like an awesome effect for climbing up rocks and all kind of nasty stuff. The horst doesn't kick, but it doesn't have that trap door effect to help me up and over, either.
    What is this "trap door effect" you speak of?

    Personally, I'm a big fan of the active, predictable nature of the suspension on my Turners. I find it to help tremendously in technical climbing.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  23. #23
    No, that's not phonetic
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    It looks like you already have your saddle in your stomach and are about to get a Kenda enema, so there is not much else you can do to get your weight back. If you are having a really hard time rolling out, it may be time to do a wheelie drop like Team Sanchez would advocate for. Aqua insists a lot of the extreme stuff he rolls would not lend itself to wheelie drops because of the bad approaches.

    If you made it out, you did it right. Hard to argue with success.
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  24. #24
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    mtnbkrdr98 , what's yer weight?

    Set up on these bikes makes a huge difference (as previously stated).

    But if you just don't like it, get something else. Don't 'keep it for a long time' and 'rant' about it...
    Shop around and get a bike that you like.
    ...every day sends future to past...

  25. #25
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    Thanks XJB and T. I am a FF at about 180lbs, most def not my fighting. I "should be" at about what 155 for my 5' 8"? But, like Jack Black said in School of Rock "because I like to eat"! My friend was yelling at me today to get a road bike and start putting in road miles for training......I dunno.

    Do, might you have any rec's on setup?

    Funny, I thought the bike felt a lot more plush, at least on the top end, with like 160lbs compression, which is about 18lbs less than my body weight, but prob a bigger diff when you add gear (full camelbak, etc); but my friend, Nels, said it looked like I was running waaay too much sag, so I upped it and I'm currently running 170lbs compression, about 10 clicks out from full slow on the rebound, wide open on the propedal, and only hiding about 1 line on the bottom out.

    Up front on the Rev, just followed what RS printed on there at 120-135lbs + & -, so I am running 130 on both. Tire pressure at about 35-40psi. That's a hard one because I don't want to pinch flat again since I run Spec Air Lock tubes and they're expensive to pinch and burp all over the place when you do.

    On another note, are you guys going to Turner gathering ride next month? I think I might try and make it - I like riding Moab.........

  26. #26
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    The axle path of those bikes (Marin quad link, ETSX, and possibly the VPP bikes like Intense 5.5 or 6.X, not sure), when activated, for example, climbing over rock steps, or a "perfect" example as an anology to actual trail conditions would be going up a curb or large curb, the rear wheel moves not only up and down, but in another plane - forward, creating a kind of "space" that sort of erases if you will, the obstacle, completely clears it, or "pushes forward" over it. Rocky Mountain also says its version, the ETSX even gives you a little "push forward", on going over stuff, and some reviewers over on the RM forum, attested to that (sensation?). Mountain Bike action gave a very good review to the Marin specifically for this. I think it was an issue published about a year and a half ago tho, and of course explained it much better than me, not trained in that, so that is the lay explanation, but basically the main point is captured.

    I read a little bit about the designer of the Quad link, White or Whyte, and he is a race car suspension engineer/designer - those are some pretty impressive credentials and that's as much as I know about him w/out doing more research (other than reading MBA, which I do think has validity).
    Last edited by mtnbkrdr98; 09-03-2006 at 09:15 PM.

  27. #27
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Well, close, sort of. The bikes in question generally start out with a rearward axlepath. When the rear wheel encounters a rock, etc, instead of having to immediately move straight up to get over the obstacle and thus get momentarily hung up as it accelerates upward, the rider can keep moving forward as the wheel moves back (with the obstacle being passed) and the wheel has time to climb over the object. The rearward axlepath can also cause the axle to bb distance to grow, which can introduce chain effects which can stabilize the suspension (and also cause pedal feedback). The Marin bike's axlepath is defined by x = 0.0021y^2 - 0.1979y - 0.001 (graph your own ). Here are a few common bikes for comparison (the MKIII is the blue line). In case you are wondering, the graph shows the axlepath as viewed from the drive side of the bike.



    If you want a list of who will be in Moab, just look at the "Final Headcount for the Shuttle for the THC" thread here. Also, check the "What size and model do you want to ride in Utah?" thread. All the cool kids are gonna be there.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  28. #28
    trail fairy
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    Everythings not for everybody, guess some people just don't feel it and thats OK,
    for most owners here its a passion not just a bike, maybe your setup is wrong who knows there's so many varibles but if it dosen't make ya happy find something that will otherwise ya ride is just biatching at ya the whole time and that aint no fun.

    Go find peace and then rant on that board about it
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  29. #29
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    Mtb98,
    First off kudos for posting an in depth review of what you dont like with the bike, as others have said 'to each their own' and there is no ONE bike that will work for everyone. My intent is not to come in and blast what you said, but I have to disagree with a few things you posted about your Jamis. I am curious as to what year was was your old frame? I rode an older Dakar before I got my Burner and there is no way that it rides as good or better. It was a good bike and the design was sound, but the rear end was noticably flexier than my Turner. I would have thought you would notice this. Also, while the bearings never needed to be replaced in 4 years they were sqeaky as all hell, whereas my Turner is nearly silent. My frame was out of alignment when purchased as well. Again not something you would find on a high-end frame.

    I think perhaps you had some misconceptions when buying a boutique frame - they are not 10 times better than a mass produced one, just eminently more refined. It is hard to take when you look at just the price of the frame, but I expect that if I maintain my current bike I could be riding it even 10 years from now. ( just like Cactuscorns old Burner) Furthermore, I think this is a case where you had unrealistic expectations before your purchase and if that is the case then it will be hard to make things work out the way you wanted. With more than 10 years of sales experience I have seen this many times. You already mentioned having buyers remorse (and that you should have bought a whole bike for the price you paid for the frame) if that is the case, and how you really feel, than that is probaby what you should have done.

    In all cases of hobbies, be it skiing, diving, biking, paintball and with electronics (TVs, stereos, PCs) there is a level where you pay a certain amount to get very good stuff which is usually more than most people need. Above that you pay a significantly higher amount for a smaller amount of features and unless you are an aficionado you will probably not notice or need the difference. This is not a bash on you, but just that I see this again and again. I can only say look at what your needs are and buy accordingly. I hope that made some sense as I have not yet had my morning coffee, in short I should probably just said you should go and take some test rides on as many bikes as possible and pick whichever one suits you the most - good luck.
    Last edited by CDtofer; 09-04-2006 at 02:27 AM.

  30. #30
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    A well thought out and articulate response to my "rant", and you, w/out your mornin Java yet even! I agree with you, for example that past a certain point of "buying" up, there is a diminishing returns factor (your stereo example).

    As for the Dakar, I think the one I bought was around 1999-2000 model; it was a horst link with a manitou Black comp fork up front. Maybe I was just subjectively jazzed about it, since, I lived in SoCal at the time, and it was the first bike that allowed me to completely clean a certain technical singletrack in the Santa Ana mtns - top to very bottom, that I could not before. The trail name eludes me now...........okay, went on The Path site and now remember, Joplin trail, which starts from just a bit below Modjeska Peak, drops in, goes to "old camp" and then descends from there down to "The Luge", and out.

    I should have gotten the RFX or Six Pack, and then would have no need for the DirtBag 2nd bike, since the RFX has the geomerty and othe stuff to hit some lines that still scare me!

  31. #31
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    A six Pack??? Well now you are in trouble for sure...I am not the one to talk to but do a search for 5pack or spack or whatever everyone is calling the 6pack front tri mounted to a five spot rear. Not that you wanted to spend more money, but maybe a way to get what you really want.

    Cheers
    C

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98

    I have one more rant: They should not charge an "upcharge" for colors. Do other manufacturers to that?

    Are you aware that most manufacturers do not give you a choice on colors at all?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    "I also wonder about the "argument" of his pivot design vs. high quality (Enduromax for example) sealed bearings. I think the sealed bearings are just fine; and, his argument that "we could pad our little pockets with all the money we would make selling replacement kits" is a bunch of BS, for sure. I really stand by this one. And I think almost every manufacturer that used them (Enduromax bearings) would stand by it as well. He/they, should update their website and come up with a more convincing ENGINEERING and FUCNTIONAL reason, because, again, I think the Enduromax sealed bearings are just as good, if not better, than the Turner design bushing system. Both have to be replaced eventually, so maybe it is 6's on that?"
    Well, let's look at this from the perspective of why use bearings?

    There is a limited amount of rotation with mountain bike pivots, that doesn't lend itself to bearings.

    The suspension is highly "leveraged", meaning that it takes several hundred pounds of force to just move the shock, so friction is a non-issue.

    Bearings have more space for contaminants to build up ("sealed" bearings are not truely sealed from the enviroment).

    Bearings are not nearly as laterally rigid unless you use roller-bearings, tapered roller-bearings, or needle bearings.

    Bearings eventually pit and play develops.

    Especially when talking about the older horst-link designs, the bushings were an integral part due to the design that lacked lateral rigidity. It's hard to design something with a pivot between the axle and main pivit and make it very rigid, and the bushings are what allowed that to happen. Now with the "new" design, it's just that much more laterally rigid.

    So tell me, why bearings? What possible advantage is there? Not friction, not rigidity unless you're using something far more exotic, I think "bearings" are somewhat marketing hype.

    You take a 5 year old turner and a 5 year old almost-anything-else, and compare for play in the pivots. Some of the bikes I've owned (FSRs even) have been straight up sh*tty as far as the pivots are concerned.

    You say that a lot of other manufacturers get by just fine with bearings, that may be true, but a lot of other manufacturers don't really make bikes designed to last more than just a few seasons.
    Last edited by Jayem; 09-04-2006 at 07:35 AM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  34. #34
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    Interesting

    Three reasons I like Turner bikes:

    1) I have had a 5 Spot for almost 3 years. I have NEVER changed the pivots. Try that with a Specialized. Plus, the paint and durablity is good. No dents in the tubing.
    2) Turner customer service is very good. I called Titus recently asking some questions on fit for a road frame. I talked to a lady who did not know what she was talking about. I call Turner and usually get a person in no time who knows their bikes.
    3) Fit is perfect for me. Love the sloping top tube.

    I'm not sure what you mean by ride quality being magical. I find that term is more applicable to a titanium road bike or something. The ride quality is what it is on a squishy bike. Well, it is squishy. The Spot is slightly porky with a long wheelbase and slack head angle. It ain't going to turn with a flick of your body weight. You have to turn it. Good for downhill but a touch of work in the tight switchbacks. I find the compromise good for keeping my head from going face first into a rock.

    You are right about being able to buy a total bike for the price of a Turner frame. For 2k you can buy a very nice bike these days. Lots of very good choices out there.

    Jaybo
    Last edited by Jaybo; 09-04-2006 at 07:25 AM.

  35. #35
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    OP and bearings/bushings

    Jayem,
    I quoted the OP, HE was the guy claiming bearings to be superior to Turner's bushing system! I responded out of quotes below that. I've seen the proof in our shop. NO VPP bike we've sold has had the durability, quiet smooth function and ease of maintenence of the Turner bushing system. I think the original poster must be thinking of CHEEEEP bushing systems (Klein Palominos, uggh, for example) and assuming the Turner bushings must be crap, too. Bushsings like that have given bushings a bad rep, but the Turner system is obviously something head and shoulders above the crowd, and working in a bike shop really shows that.

    It is neat to be on a ride with a handful of various FS bike brands and hear the creaks and groans and clicks from the suspension of other's bikes, and yet my Turner (with no maintainence for 2 seasons) just hums along with no complaint.

  36. #36
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    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Well, close, sort of. The bikes in question generally start out with a rearward axlepath. When the rear wheel encounters a rock, etc, instead of having to immediately move straight up to get over the obstacle and thus get momentarily hung up as it accelerates upward, the rider can keep moving forward as the wheel moves back (with the obstacle being passed) and the wheel has time to climb over the object. The rearward axlepath can also cause the axle to bb distance to grow, which can introduce chain effects which can stabilize the suspension (and also cause pedal feedback). The Marin bike's axlepath is defined by x = 0.0021y^2 - 0.1979y - 0.001 (graph your own ). Here are a few common bikes for comparison (the MKIII is the blue line). In case you are wondering, the graph shows the axlepath as viewed from the drive side of the bike.



    If you want a list of who will be in Moab, just look at the "Final Headcount for the Shuttle for the THC" thread here. Also, check the "What size and model do you want to ride in Utah?" thread. All the cool kids are gonna be there.

    I did the old graduate business thing but I can't understand a lick of that chart. You keep the charts, I will ride the bikes.

    Jaybo

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparrow
    Jayem,
    I quoted the OP, HE was the guy claiming bearings to be superior to Turner's bushing system!
    Oh, i usually use the quote feature.

    Like this.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  38. #38
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    Magnified?

    The graph is title Magnified Path, but it's actually Exaggerated Path

    Thanks for the post, Cheeze. As always, you provide great info.

    BUT

    If the scale were linear (instead of the x-axis magnified 5X), everyone would see that the paths of all of the bikes are very close to one another. There really isn't much difference between most of those paths.

    Would you happen to have a linear plot of those paths?

  39. #39
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    If he thinks the Spot has an unispired ride, the RFX is definitely the wrong machine to move to. The handling is slower and the bike is a bit more plodding.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    He/they, should update their website and come up with a more convincing ENGINEERING and FUCNTIONAL reason, because, again, I think the Enduromax sealed bearings are just as good, if not better, than the Turner design bushing system.
    Boy is this a red herring.

    Jm is correct; there is no reason why Turner would need to further justify the use of bushings. Their record speaks for themselves and for some of us the use of the bushings is a big reason why we like the bikes. If Turner moved away from bushings it would make it a lot less likely that I would keep buying them.

    I ride 5-6 days a week all year in sloppy wet coastal Alaska. I usually wear my bb pivot out about every 18 months (I'm 185#). The other pivots are still fine. My GF (130#) could probably go 3 or 5 years with no wear on her pivots (hard to judge since I have never been able to find any sign of wear in her Turner's pivots). A full bushing rebuild kit costs $75 retail from Turner. That kit has 3 main pivot assemblies and 2 rear pivots, so about $20 of the cost is one main pivot. Spending $20 every 1 1/2 years to keep my bikes in factory-fresh condition seems pretty reasonable to me, and I can replace the pivot in about 10 minutes with no special tools other than a t40 torx bit ($5) for my torque wrench. We have owned 5 Turners over the course of 4 years (9.5 years of cumulative use across the frames), so I think I have a pretty good idea how they hold up in my conditions. There is nothing in the pivot which is subject to any sort of corrosion. I live in a very salty place and my bikes pretty much stay wet between October and March since they get stored in an unheated metal shed.

    Are they perfect? Well, some people have had too strong a threadlocker in theirs and had a hard time getting the bolts out. That has not been my experience at all, so I would consider them perfect. The worst thing I can think of happening is popping a zerk out through overzealous pumping with the grease gun. I just glue it back in.

    Ever tried to pull a disintigrated cartridge bearing out of a frame? Honestly, the idea that Turner should move to bearings just makes me laugh. If I lived in the desert, I wouldn't care so much. As it is, I for one hope they never change.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  40. #40
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    Most of the build was from, I like Reeds Cycles here in Boise area spec it. I think it is going to be sweet - they put a Zoke 66 RC something up front, it is all air. Out back a swinger coil. I'm only going to run flat pedals on it - ever. I might eventually if I can sack up and see someone else do it, maybe just maybe hit the 20 footer on it. I have health insurance! I'll post a review and some photos after getting some serious ride time on it on some serious trails, but I am not capable of taking it thorugh it's paces the way a handful of people here are (serious, true freeriders that go, umm, HUGE)

  41. #41
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    Here's something from Popular Mechanics:

    BIKE : N/A
    CATEGORY : XC FRS & TARA FRS
    PUBLICATION : Popular Mechanics, April 2003

    Links To The Future, Marin Quad Review

    We’re going to come right out and say it. The future in mountain bikes is the 4-link suspension. The reason is simple: energy efficiency. Hardtails are very efficient machines and transfer virtually all of the pedal power to the rear wheel. The problem is they wear you out on long hauls over rough terrain, which makes you less efficient.

    Suspension bikes are easier on your bod, but suspension movement soaks up energy that otherwise would help move you forward. An average rider produces about 0.3 hp, so even the smallest amount of energy lost to the rear wheel is significant. The problem with bicycle rear suspension systems is that the rider does not pedal smoothly but stamps on the power stroke. Pedal power produced on the downstroke causes a bike equipped with a typical single-pivot rear suspension to dip or bob.
    Suspension travel also produces chain growth, which can adversely affect efficiency. Chain growth is the result of the increase in distance between the center of the bottom bracket and the center of the rear wheel. Too little, and the bike will bob and have poor traction.Too much, and the bike will rise on every pedal stroke and suffer noticeable pedal feedback--the pedal stroke stiffens. Pedal feedback is common over rough terrain where there is a lot of chain movement.

    Enter Jon Whyte, ex-Formula One suspension engineer. Whyte took up cycling for health reasons and found that a hardtail beat him up too much. A single-pivot suspension bike allowed him to ride farther and finish fresher, but he saw room for improvement. Single-pivot suspensions have a fixed pivot point, and the wheel moves up and down in a fixed arc. A 4-link design allows the wheel to move in a quadratic arc--back and forth as well as up and down. Having the wheel move back early in its travel helps take the shock out of sharp bumps and helps the wheel roll, rather than plow, over the bump.

    The 4-link system also creates a variable pivot point. This is a theoretical point called the instantaneous pivot center (IPC) that’s determined basically by imagining a line being drawn through the pivot points of the links and seeing where they intersect. With the suspension at rest, the IPC is relatively high. This causes the rear wheel to be pulled into the ground for good traction. As the suspension compresses, the IPC moves down toward the bottom bracket, eliminating chain growth and pedal feedback over bumps.

    The 4-link system works as a variable lever on the shock absorber, which, in Whyte’s design, is driven off the swing arm rather than a rotating link as with some other 4-link systems. The long-lever effect during early wheel travel makes it easy to move the shock to give a plush feel. As the wheel continues to travel, the lever effect shortens, requiring more force to compress the shock for a true variable-shock action.

    Whyte’s 4-link system is used on Marin Bikes’ Quad series
    (www.marinbikes.com) and the Whyte PRST-4 Quad-Link (www.whytebikesusa.com).

    One good ride on a 4-link, and your hardtail will be dust.

  42. #42
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    Naw, personally I would never do that or mismatch like that. If I owned and RFX or 6 Pack (whatever he is calling it today), I would want the strong rear triangle members as well, to go with it. No frankenstien visions here!

  43. #43
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    Good job! It hits the "Spot" for me!

    I thought I would weigh in on the 5 Spot and its relative merits over other bikes - FOR ME!

    I have owned 15-20 mountain bikes in the last 10 years - whereas others have multiple sports, I really only have one sport - riding a mountain bike. At age 54, it keeps me fit and keeps my reflexes quick. Here in the high country of CO, it also gets me to places I wouldn't hike to, like the Monarch Crest Trail, the Colorado Trail, etc.

    In the last 5 years I have progressed from buying complete OEM spec'ed bikes to my own builds and also have jumped into some skill camps to learn more about bike handling at high and low speed (Yo Gene Hamilton/Better Ride - you 'da man!).

    Just in the last three years I have demo'ed or purchased at least 10 bikes; purchases including two Moots' (made right here in Steamboat), four Specialized's (two Epic's and two Enduro's), a Kona King (Scandium frame 4" travel bike), and I have tried every other major brand out there from shops here at home or while traveling in Moab or Fruita.

    Last year I made a new friend who was riding a 5 Spot while I was riding my Moots Cinco and we traded bikes. That was all it took for me to realize I was home on the subject of the ultimate XC bike that likes to go downhill, too.

    The handling may be just a tad slower than my Cinco but going downhill is where it shines - 69 degree HT angle vs. 71 makes a huge difference in stability going fast and I have decided that if you have a full suspension bike, it should be stiff and let the suspension do the work, not the frame.

    The only places the Cinco holds higher than the Spot are the oft-mentioned low BB height - I have adjusted to that (this week Darren tells me that I will be able to raise that clearance by .5" with the new PUSH Rockers) and the weight - titanium does weigh less than aluminum.

    As for creaking, the quad-sealed bearings of my Cinco started within 3 months; the Spot after 3 months is still a Stealth Machine!

    So, IMHO, this bike hits the "Spot" for me.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    Here's something from Popular Mechanics:

    BIKE : N/A
    CATEGORY : XC FRS & TARA FRS
    PUBLICATION : Popular Mechanics, April 2003

    Links To The Future, Marin Quad Review

    We’re going to come right out and say it. The future in mountain bikes is the 4-link suspension. The reason is simple: energy efficiency. Hardtails are very efficient machines and transfer virtually all of the pedal power to the rear wheel. The problem is they wear you out on long hauls over rough terrain, which makes you less efficient.

    Suspension bikes are easier on your bod, but suspension movement soaks up energy that otherwise would help move you forward. An average rider produces about 0.3 hp, so even the smallest amount of energy lost to the rear wheel is significant. The problem with bicycle rear suspension systems is that the rider does not pedal smoothly but stamps on the power stroke. Pedal power produced on the downstroke causes a bike equipped with a typical single-pivot rear suspension to dip or bob.
    Suspension travel also produces chain growth, which can adversely affect efficiency. Chain growth is the result of the increase in distance between the center of the bottom bracket and the center of the rear wheel. Too little, and the bike will bob and have poor traction.Too much, and the bike will rise on every pedal stroke and suffer noticeable pedal feedback--the pedal stroke stiffens. Pedal feedback is common over rough terrain where there is a lot of chain movement.

    Enter Jon Whyte, ex-Formula One suspension engineer. Whyte took up cycling for health reasons and found that a hardtail beat him up too much. A single-pivot suspension bike allowed him to ride farther and finish fresher, but he saw room for improvement. Single-pivot suspensions have a fixed pivot point, and the wheel moves up and down in a fixed arc. A 4-link design allows the wheel to move in a quadratic arc--back and forth as well as up and down. Having the wheel move back early in its travel helps take the shock out of sharp bumps and helps the wheel roll, rather than plow, over the bump.

    The 4-link system also creates a variable pivot point. This is a theoretical point called the instantaneous pivot center (IPC) that’s determined basically by imagining a line being drawn through the pivot points of the links and seeing where they intersect. With the suspension at rest, the IPC is relatively high. This causes the rear wheel to be pulled into the ground for good traction. As the suspension compresses, the IPC moves down toward the bottom bracket, eliminating chain growth and pedal feedback over bumps.

    The 4-link system works as a variable lever on the shock absorber, which, in Whyte’s design, is driven off the swing arm rather than a rotating link as with some other 4-link systems. The long-lever effect during early wheel travel makes it easy to move the shock to give a plush feel. As the wheel continues to travel, the lever effect shortens, requiring more force to compress the shock for a true variable-shock action.

    Whyte’s 4-link system is used on Marin Bikes’ Quad series
    (www.marinbikes.com) and the Whyte PRST-4 Quad-Link (www.whytebikesusa.com).

    One good ride on a 4-link, and your hardtail will be dust.

    A couple of things you may want to consider regarding this article and theoretical analysis of mtb frames and suspension design in general...

    Real world testing and performance are far more significant than number crunching and theorizing. Do a search on TNT vs. Horst Link for examples.

    This article is over three years old, and despite claims of the superiority of the 4-link they are about the least common frame design I encounter here on mtbr and out on the trail. If they were that good the word would have spread by now.

  45. #45
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pop Mech
    The 4-link system also creates a variable pivot point. This is a theoretical point called the instantaneous pivot center (IPC) that’s determined basically by imagining a line being drawn through the pivot points of the links and seeing where they intersect. With the suspension at rest, the IPC is relatively high. This causes the rear wheel to be pulled into the ground for good traction. As the suspension compresses, the IPC moves down toward the bottom bracket, eliminating chain growth and pedal feedback over bumps.

    The 4-link system works as a variable lever on the shock absorber, which, in Whyte’s design, is driven off the swing arm rather than a rotating link as with some other 4-link systems. The long-lever effect during early wheel travel makes it easy to move the shock to give a plush feel. As the wheel continues to travel, the lever effect shortens, requiring more force to compress the shock for a true variable-shock action.
    They just described a progressive, rising rate ICT-style linkage. In my experience the TNT is equivalent. Others may differ. That is exactly WHY you have to ride them yourself.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Jm is correct; there is no reason why Turner would need to further justify the use of bushings. Their record speaks for themselves and for some of us the use of the bushings is a big reason why we like the bikes. If Turner moved away from bushings it would make it a lot less likely that I would keep buying them.
    I know I was in the market for other bikes, giving others a fair chance, just to be a smart shopper. For every great bike that came up, which there were many, one point kept coming back was the bushings. I know what to expect from them, I know how long they'll last, and I haven't worn a set down yet. Lots of these designs are fantastic, but I'm in an environment that's wet and sandy and can reak havoc on bearings. So in the end, I was always drawn back to Turner with the bushings being one of the major draws.

  47. #47
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    Ditto

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I did the old graduate business thing but I can't understand a lick of that chart. You keep the charts, I will ride the bikes.

    Jaybo
    Undergrad in bus.

    Uhhh, Ummm, Y=MX + B? :

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    Undergrad in bus.

    Uhhh, Ummm, Y=MX + B? :
    I'm waiting for you to tell us why bearings are so good in a limited-movement high-leverage application requiring lots of lateral rigidity.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  49. #49
    Daniel the Dog
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    Real world stuff means a lot more...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    Undergrad in bus.

    Uhhh, Ummm, Y=MX + B? :
    I could work at it by taking some time to figure what it means. My points is it is mostly meaningless except for the Push boys and the like. I want real world experience. Please tell me what that graph means and how it seperates Turner from other bikes because that is exactly what is it meant to do. Turner homers are constantly telling the world why their bikes are better than everyone's else's bikes. I'm quite sure it is some small peter principle or something.

    Jaybo

  50. #50
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Jaybo is constantly telling the world that the Homers claim their bikes are better than everyone else's bikes while most of them actually either own other brands in addition to their Turners or admire the ride of other bike brands too. I'm quite sure it is some Jaybo principle or something.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  51. #51
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    [QUOTE=be350ka] I have to say that I really like my 5 Spot and the way that it rides. Although, I did have to do some experimenting with shock setup, tire pressures, seatpost ht, stem length, etc. to find that "sweet spot". But, this is common with most bikes that I have ridden. Not one has been THAT bike where you can ride and feel 100% at home right away. QUOTE]
    So true... Took me 2 months to get mine dialed and now it really does ride like a dream.

    Also, for the first 6 weeks I was always hitting my pedals on rocks etc but as be350ka said you adjust.

  52. #52
    Time flies...
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    ...something else I thought about today. Turners are thoroughbreds! Thier ride "quality" isn't really appearant until they get pushed.
    My first FS bike was a Jamis Dakar XC, and man, I loved the buttery suspension of that bike! When I first demo'ed Turner bikes, I tried a Spot and then a Flux. The Spot was a different ride altogether, but the Flux didn't feel much different from my Jamis...
    Until I got comfortable on it and started pushing it harder. Then the Flux just laughed and said "is that all you got, punk?"
    I realized then what a superior bike the Turners are. Now I own both a Flux and a Spot, and am anxious to try out the RFX replacement in a few months.

    For just putt-putt riding, Turners don't seem like anything special (probably true for most high-end machines...?), but try to take the bike to it's limits and see who wins.
    ...every day sends future to past...

  53. #53
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    Huh? Not sure what you meant...

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Jaybo is constantly telling the world that the Homers claim their bikes are better than everyone else's bikes while most of them actually either own other brands in addition to their Turners or admire the ride of other bike brands too. I'm quite sure it is some Jaybo principle or something.
    I just get tired of this elitist notion that you are stupid if you buy another brand. I have ridden other bikes but stay on a Turner due to the durability of the pivots and fit. Really isn't just the ride. Other bikes rides as well or better in some cases. The 575, Blur LT, Nomad, etc. are all awesome bikes that are neck and neck with the Spot. A person is not a second class citizen just because he chooses to ride a Nomad. Maybe that is a Jaybo principle.

    Jaybo

  54. #54
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    my turn

    Well there were an awfull lot of vague words like magical, theory, etc etc in you opening rant. This is my simplified view of mountain bike frames, they are tools that have to function in the worst possible enviroments we can play in. If it don't work out 'there' all the marketing BS that you have been reading is just that. As many riders since your opening rant have mentioned, it is not about anyone single thing that sets a Turner apart from the rest of the choices available, but a combination of many points that to many are not even the same. I am sorry that you spent your hard earned money and are bummed about it, one of the driving forces in my design work has always been to eliminate buyers remorse. I will bet my left nut that of the brands available today almost all of them are focused on selling you something new over and over and over again. Strictly a marketed product and in a year of 2, something SO NEW and SO Superior that you have to buy a new mousetrap. If there really is a magical perpetual motion machine we would be riding coast to coast on a Snickers and a bottle of water! I may be completely wrong here, and I am sure I will be told so if I am, but there is nothing free in the mechanical world. More power? More heat! More strength, more weight! Higher pivot? Bad braking! Low weight Carbon tubes? Ding it and you trash it!

    You rant about our color upcharge but did not do the research, are we really the only ones that offer 10 colors but you have to pay an upcharge? What does the industry do for custom colors? We offer 2 standard colors, both pre-polished and then anodized and no they do not make everyone happy but when someone wants a custom paint we have to 'throw away' the ano finish as we paint over it. I have to break even on it so we charge.

    Ahhh pivots, the forum has spoken in favor of the expensive system that I still use after 12years. I will totally stand behind the statement that we could line our pockets blah blah blah. One of our pivot shafts costs as much as a whole rebuild kit of "enduro" ball bearings and it ain't like I don't know as the DHR has used angular contact full complement stainless steel ball bearing races, same as a famous head set maker, for over 3 years and yes we sell more DHR rebuilds than any other model so we are going to the Highline system which is full complement needle bearings with needle thrust bearings for next year, so why no put them in XC bikes? Weight. They are steel and they are heavy, but the Highline and DHR can handle it on the scale.

    This is my rant, hope it was informitive.

    David Turner

  55. #55
    Natl. Champ DH Poser/Hack
    Reputation: cactuscorn's Avatar
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    plus 1

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    All the cool kids are gonna be there.
    oh, and me too. i got a waiver.
    No, I'm NOT back!

  56. #56
    ~~~~~~~~
    Reputation: airwreck's Avatar
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    Dec 2003
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    5,874
    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrdr98
    I like Reeds Cycles here in Boise...
    I see what's going on here, Bill brainwashed you! He's good at that.

    DT, Reeds really should be a dealer.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: steve47co1's Avatar
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    Good job! Amen

    I think we have heard the final word from the Jedi Master - Obi Wan Kenobi himself.

    Amen I say, brother Turner.

  58. #58
    Team Sanchez
    Reputation: El Chingon's Avatar
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    Nov 2004
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    4,368
    Hey Holmes, I had the same complaint about the way my 6 pack climbed when compared to the SC Heckler that it replaced. Tscheezy always whines about pedal feedback on the Heckler, but I never noticed it. My Heckler was a mountain goat compared to my horst link 6-pack. Now fast forward to about 4 months ago, when DT sent me a TNT rear. Now my bike climbs like a mountain goat again. No sluggish feeling on the technical climbs, and still descends like my zipper on prom night. After a year of doing retarded drops like the one below, and my bushings are still as smooth as the day I got em.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  59. #59
    Time flies...
    Reputation: xjbebop's Avatar
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    Jul 2005
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    2,206
    ""and still descends like my zipper on prom night.""

    ...too funny!!
    ...every day sends future to past...

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