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  1. #1
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    Question for D T who actualy Invented the Horst link

    I have read someware that it was actualy karl Nicolai that came up with the Horst Link.
    D T you would know ?? Also is it not the true that the 4 bar is an automotive desighn from many years ago, so why would there b any patent rights to the Horst link or the Lawill ??
    Last edited by Artin Aga; 10-26-2007 at 08:25 PM.

  2. #2
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    I dont know the whole particulars but I have heard that Carl Nicolai helped out but I believe it was Horst Letner who gets the credit. I also think he is the designer of the new Kona Coiler system.
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    I heard it was Nicola Tesla.

    BTW, there were patent rights, and Specialized bought them (back when they were scooping up patents). When Turner used the Horst, he licensed it from Specialized..then the ICT came into play...
    Last edited by lidarman; 10-26-2007 at 09:35 PM.

  4. #4
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    I do not think D.T. invented the Horst Link, but I believe he did invent the internets

    (a Gore and Bush'ism all in one : )

  5. #5
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    By the way this I did not start this thread to stir feathers for real for the life of me I do not understand why the f*%k people should pay royalties on something that was desighned years ago in the automotive industry. I realy can't get this ( oh you can't stick your pivot here bull **** because I did it first. It's a freaking A arm system Cars were using this sh!t 70 years ago

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    Isn't it "Kalle" Nicolai?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    By the way this I did not start this thread to stir feathers for real for the life of me I do not understand why the f*%k people should pay royalties on something that was desighned years ago in the automotive industry. I realy can't get this ( oh you can't stick your pivot here bull **** because I did it first. It's a freaking A arm system Cars were using this sh!t 70 years ago
    Wow, what a tone turn-around.

    That is how patent law works. If you modify an existing design for use in a new application, you can patent it.

    Why does that bother you?

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    Ahhh ? how is that a tone turn around ??
    Its a crock I don't see a company like Benz stop all the other car makers from using seat belts because they were the first to take a restrain harness from an airplane application and Use it for automotive Industry

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Ahhh ? how is that a tone turn around ??
    Its a crock I don't see a company like Benz stop all the other car makers from using seat belts because they were the first to take a restrain harness from an airplane application and Use it for automotive Industry
    First, you don't know what happens behind the doors. When seat belts were first used, they might have been licensed to all the companies who use them. You could probably research it and find out. I think the modern air bags are all licensed from some patent holder, yet used in many cars.

    If you are a smart business person, you know if its worth buying patent rights and if you own a patent, how to price them. It's part of business. Like buying parts, you buy patent licenses. If not, you work around it.

    I know Turner and Titus have licensed the Horst link from Specialized. Obviously at the time, it was worth it to them.

  10. #10
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    Is this is a joke?

    Horst Leitner invented the Horst link.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    Is this is a joke?

    Horst Leitner invented the Horst link.
    LOL. I thought it was a trick question. It's like "how do I dial 911?" JK...seriously. I guess there is a slight chance that someone else actually created it but Horst was the first that patented it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    It's like "how do I dial 911?" JK...seriously.
    Red Green Classic



    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XVv_YWBJMDY&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XVv_YWBJMDY&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
    Last edited by lidarman; 10-26-2007 at 09:10 PM.

  13. #13
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    Ok like I said it's not a joke here is the actual article

    n 1991, while working for AMP Research, (owned and run by another motorcycle racer named Horst Leitner) Karl Nicolai designed a bike that utilized the four bar linkage design and accepted a normal cantilever brake. This bike was initially marketed under the AMP brand and a version came to the mass market as the Specialized FSR. It became the standard by which all other full suspension designs were judged for the next decade. Specialized bought several of Leitner's patents in May 1998 and other manufacturers (ironically now including Nicolai himself) must now pay licence fees to Specialized for the use of the 'Horst Link' suspension design.

    Now let's hear it from the man that was there D T himself if this is true or not ?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Ok like I said it's not a joke here is the actual article

    n 1991, while working for AMP Research, (owned and run by another motorcycle racer named Horst Leitner) Karl Nicolai designed a bike that utilized the four bar linkage design and accepted a normal cantilever brake. This bike was initially marketed under the AMP brand and a version came to the mass market as the Specialized FSR. It became the standard by which all other full suspension designs were judged for the next decade. Specialized bought several of Leitner's patents in May 1998 and other manufacturers (ironically now including Nicolai himself) must now pay licence fees to Specialized for the use of the 'Horst Link' suspension design.

    Now let's hear it from the man that was there D T himself if this is true or not ?

    I think that is true


    and the darker side of amp research

    https://www.bikepro.com/products/forks/amp_index.html


    didn't quite survive did it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Ok like I said it's not a joke here is the actual article

    n 1991, while working for AMP Research, (owned and run by another motorcycle racer named Horst Leitner) Karl Nicolai designed a bike that utilized the four bar linkage design and accepted a normal cantilever brake. This bike was initially marketed under the AMP brand and a version came to the mass market as the Specialized FSR. It became the standard by which all other full suspension designs were judged for the next decade. Specialized bought several of Leitner's patents in May 1998 and other manufacturers (ironically now including Nicolai himself) must now pay licence fees to Specialized for the use of the 'Horst Link' suspension design.

    Now let's hear it from the man that was there D T himself if this is true or not ?
    This is very likely just as it happened. When you work for a company, any designs that you develop while under their employment, generally, as a term of employment, become the property of the company. So as the owner of AMP Research, Horst Leitner would own the patent for a design made by one of his employees, in this case, Karl Nicolai.

    http://www.freelawyer.co.uk/vlawyer/...eq=4&actid=116

  16. #16
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    Actually the Horst link is a refinement of a lesser known suspension technology developed on the East Coast.... the Jerk_Link.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadbolt
    This is very likely just as it happened. When you work for a company, any designs that you develop while under their employment, generally, as a term of employment, become the property of the company. So as the owner of AMP Research, Horst Leitner would own the patent for the design made by one of his employees, in this case, Karl Nicolai.

    http://www.freelawyer.co.uk/vlawyer/...eq=4&actid=116

    And to add, I believe Leitner already had the patent for the motorcycle and Nicolai just applied if to the mountain bike. It's not like Nicolai went into a secret room that Leitner couldn't see what he was doing and not work with him on it.

    So technically, maybe for historical sakes Nicolai could have invented it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Actually the Horst link is a refinement of a lesser known suspension technology developed on the East Coast.... the Jerk_Link.
    And I thought the jerk link was Jamaican origin....oh wait, the other jerk.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    I heard it was Nicola Tesla.

    God damn you EDISON!!!!!!!!!!!!







    And by edison I mean ellsworth.
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lidarman
    And I thought the jerk link was Jamaican origin....oh wait, the other jerk.
    Maybe you're thinking of Link_Jerky... a popular Caribbean snack food.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Actually the Horst link is a refinement of a lesser known suspension technology developed on the East Coast.... the Jerk_Link.
    Now that's comedy...


    Here's Horst's patent if anyone's interested: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5509679-fulltext.html

    The abstract is very much abstract!

    And Ardin, to answer your other question, I don't believe this is actually the same application as the automotive 4-bar suspension. Even if it was, the Horst link was designed to isolate pedaling forces from the rear axle. There is obviously no such need in an automotive suspension, and as such, no patent to infringe upon.
    Last edited by deadbolt; 10-26-2007 at 10:03 PM.

  22. #22
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    lolololol thats it my next bike has to b a Jerk_link

  23. #23
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    what Motorcycle suspention the blody system was used by the automotive industry 50 years before

  24. #24
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    In fact it was invented in Palou by this guy named Katch Nazar at the turn of the century

  25. #25
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    Well I will, as of now stop losing sleep of this issue.....it's actually quite a sleep aid at this point.

    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    Ok like I said it's not a joke here is the actual article

    n 1991, while working for AMP Research, (owned and run by another motorcycle racer named Horst Leitner) Karl Nicolai designed a bike that utilized the four bar linkage design and accepted a normal cantilever brake. This bike was initially marketed under the AMP brand and a version came to the mass market as the Specialized FSR. It became the standard by which all other full suspension designs were judged for the next decade. Specialized bought several of Leitner's patents in May 1998 and other manufacturers (ironically now including Nicolai himself) must now pay licence fees to Specialized for the use of the 'Horst Link' suspension design.
    Is that straight from Wikipedia?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artin Aga
    By the way this I did not start this thread to stir feathers for real for the life of me I do not understand why the f*%k people should pay royalties on something that was desighned years ago in the automotive industry. I realy can't get this ( oh you can't stick your pivot here bull **** because I did it first. It's a freaking A arm system Cars were using this sh!t 70 years ago
    Sometimes I think you are trying to knock CF off his perch.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwirider
    Sometimes I think you are trying to knock CF off his perch.
    No way I would dare to mess with a legend

  29. #29
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    I worked for AMP research/ATK back then, on their motorcycle chain torque eliminator system - not in the bike manuf. area, and back then Karl [funny, he would remind people to call him "steve" back then for some reason I'll never know] used to just sweep up around the place, take boxes outside and break them down, feed the cat, and generally try not to be a nuisance of himself. Nice guy in general.

  30. #30
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    I invented the horst link.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadbolt
    When you work for a company, any designs that you develop while under their employment, generally, as a term of employment, become the property of the company.
    Indeed.....I invented Epogen

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    Indeed.....I invented Epogen
    Procrit here.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Procrit here.
    I assume you mean you use Procrit, not invented it....Procrit IS Epogen, just relabeled silly

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    No, I invented it, but use Aranesp instead.

  35. #35
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    Now I know you are BSing since you didnt know that little fact!

  36. #36
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    I'm afraid you are all wrong, but it's an easy mistake to make.

    The Horst link originated in England in the late 19th century when there was an attachment on the frame of the newly-invented Penny Farthing bicycle that allowed a gentleman to tether his horse to his bike. Many people did this as they weren't sure bikes would catch on so they also retained a horse. Of course, back then it was known by its original name of Horse Link. Typically, Americans got hold of this great idea, changed the spelling and claimed it as their own invention (a bit like how Ben Affleck won Pearl Harbour and then the Battle of Britain).

    To complete the picture, around the same time a device was invented at the racetrack (to which the Upper Class would ride their new "bicycles") to try and get around the newly introduced weight handicapping system in horse racing. The device would actually decrease the weight of the animal when it was being weighed ahead of the race - the device was originally named the Horse Lightener.

    I hope this clears things up. Glad to help, any time.

  37. #37
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    Horst of course

    I made an appointment with Horst to discuss the possibility of AMP doing a suspension design for Mongoose, in 1990 "I think". when I showed up for the meeting Horst showed me an obviously older sketch showing a 'Horst link' equipped bicycle. He said he had wanted to make a bike in the past but did not know of any company interested, well Mongoose was interested and prototyping of the strut style started shortly thereafter. Horst being a thinking business man as well as mad mechanical creator also applied for patents around the same time. Karlheinz Nicolai was not even an employee when Horst was working on his first 'link' and selling it to Mongoose. Many many months later I had quit Mongoose, skied a few months and was racing moto when I talked to Horst and he and I made a deal for me to come to work for AMP, sweeping up the shop and maybe he would let me use the grinder and manual mill and simple stuff, being an ex racer he did not want a meathead getting injured on the job! So, more months go by and I am in the shop sweeping up one day and see some office types chatting up Horst in the office, Polo shirts and loafers with tassles, you know the type. Seems that they were from Specialized and were kinda jealous of Mongoose and all the love MBA was pouring over everything that Horst was doing. Sooooooo, a week later several LX equipped Stumpy somethings showed up and I was allowed to take them apart and band saw the rear ends off in preparation for suspension mounts to be welded on for prototyping. It was at this time I have my first memory of karl nicololai at AMP. Horst had the idea of a 4 bar design for Specialized, but it used a rotary damper and leaf spring set up. The rotary damper was the 4th pivot and 'bar'. It was at this time I remember Karl, who was an intern basically working as a draftsman for Horst. At that time Horst used CAD, Cardboard Aided Design, so help with the drafting duties was a full time job. Well the rotary damper as 4th bar did not work, so it was Karl that got to spend a working weekend with Horst when the flat link with little coil shock was created and what will be remembered as the first Specialized full suspension bike. I DO NOT know if it was Horst or Karl that came up with the flat link squishing the mini coil-over, but one thing is FOR SURE, Karl did not come up with the Horst Link or the 4 bar version of it. Horst was large and in charge of his company, all the time at all hours and days of the week. Unlikely that Karl contributed more than just a thought or 2, it was Horst that when he had the 'vision' could rip through multiple ideas in his mind and see where it had to go.

    David Turner

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    ....or that.

  39. #39
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    God bless the Brits
    now it all finaly makes sense

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I made an appointment with Horst to discuss the possibility of AMP doing a suspension design for Mongoose, in 1990 "I think". when I showed up for the meeting Horst showed me an obviously older sketch showing a 'Horst link' equipped bicycle. He said he had wanted to make a bike in the past but did not know of any company interested, well Mongoose was interested and prototyping of the strut style started shortly thereafter. Horst being a thinking business man as well as mad mechanical creator also applied for patents around the same time. Karlheinz Nicolai was not even an employee when Horst was working on his first 'link' and selling it to Mongoose. Many many months later I had quit Mongoose, skied a few months and was racing moto when I talked to Horst and he and I made a deal for me to come to work for AMP, sweeping up the shop and maybe he would let me use the grinder and manual mill and simple stuff, being an ex racer he did not want a meathead getting injured on the job! So, more months go by and I am in the shop sweeping up one day and see some office types chatting up Horst in the office, Polo shirts and loafers with tassles, you know the type. Seems that they were from Specialized and were kinda jealous of Mongoose and all the love MBA was pouring over everything that Horst was doing. Sooooooo, a week later several LX equipped Stumpy somethings showed up and I was allowed to take them apart and band saw the rear ends off in preparation for suspension mounts to be welded on for prototyping. It was at this time I have my first memory of karl nicololai at AMP. Horst had the idea of a 4 bar design for Specialized, but it used a rotary damper and leaf spring set up. The rotary damper was the 4th pivot and 'bar'. It was at this time I remember Karl, who was an intern basically working as a draftsman for Horst. At that time Horst used CAD, Cardboard Aided Design, so help with the drafting duties was a full time job. Well the rotary damper as 4th bar did not work, so it was Karl that got to spend a working weekend with Horst when the flat link with little coil shock was created and what will be remembered as the first Specialized full suspension bike. I DO NOT know if it was Horst or Karl that came up with the flat link squishing the mini coil-over, but one thing is FOR SURE, Karl did not come up with the Horst Link or the 4 bar version of it. Horst was large and in charge of his company, all the time at all hours and days of the week. Unlikely that Karl contributed more than just a thought or 2, it was Horst that when he had the 'vision' could rip through multiple ideas in his mind and see where it had to go.

    David Turner
    Thanks for the history. It's amazing to see how things and people have grown. I keep thinking Cocalis was out there, but I'm not sure if this is fact or fiction. What was Chris doing back then?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tidybeard
    I'm afraid you are all wrong, but it's an easy mistake to make.

    The Horst link originated in England in the late 19th century when there was an attachment on the frame of the newly-invented Penny Farthing bicycle that allowed a gentleman to tether his horse to his bike. Many people did this as they weren't sure bikes would catch on so they also retained a horse. Of course, back then it was known by its original name of Horse Link. Typically, Americans got hold of this great idea, changed the spelling and claimed it as their own invention (a bit like how Ben Affleck won Pearl Harbour and then the Battle of Britain).

    To complete the picture, around the same time a device was invented at the racetrack (to which the Upper Class would ride their new "bicycles") to try and get around the newly introduced weight handicapping system in horse racing. The device would actually decrease the weight of the animal when it was being weighed ahead of the race - the device was originally named the Horse Lightener.

    I hope this clears things up. Glad to help, any time.
    TB - you're a credit to the forum (and must spend waaay too much time thinking this crap up)

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac
    TB - you're a credit to the forum (and must spend waaay too much time thinking this crap up)
    I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for that pesky Turner fella.

    Oh well, maybe next time.

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    Rampant Revisionisom

    Allow me to complete this little history lesson with the following:

    While everything DT and TB have said is obviously true, it is interesting to note that inspiration for Horst's design, the Jerk_Link, had in it's time, won quite a bit of attention in engineering/design circles.

    On paper, it showed remarkable potential and had merited some experimentation. In implementation though, it was discovered that left unmoderated it had a tendency to make some particularly distracting noises that often annoyed other riders.

    Worse still, it's performance was regionally limited to the point that the Jerk_Link was nearly unrideable outside the NY/NJ metropolitan area. That limitation was so severe that it was eventually banned in Massachusetts, Spain and parts of New Zealand.



    This has been an MTBR moment.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Allow me to complete this little history lesson with the following:

    While everything DT and TB have said is obviously true, it is interesting to note that inspiration for Horst's design, the Jerk_Link, had in it's time, won quite a bit of attention in engineering/design circles.

    On paper, it showed remarkable potential and had merited some experimentation. In implementation though, it was discovered that left unmoderated it had a tendency to make some particularly distracting noises that often annoyed other riders.

    Worse still, it's performance was regionally limited to the point that the Jerk_Link was nearly unrideable outside the NY/NJ metropolitan area. That limitation was so severe that it was eventually banned in Massachusetts, Spain and parts of New Zealand.



    This has been an MTBR moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Allow me to complete this little history lesson with the following:

    While everything DT and TB have said is obviously true, it is interesting to note that inspiration for Horst's design, the Jerk_Link, had in it's time, won quite a bit of attention in engineering/design circles.

    On paper, it showed remarkable potential and had merited some experimentation. In implementation though, it was discovered that left unmoderated it had a tendency to make some particularly distracting noises that often annoyed other riders.

    Worse still, it's performance was regionally limited to the point that the Jerk_Link was nearly unrideable outside the NY/NJ metropolitan area. That limitation was so severe that it was eventually banned in Massachusetts, Spain and parts of New Zealand.



    This has been an MTBR moment.
    This has been a phenomenal klown krap weekend, I must say.

  46. #46
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    Didn't Tony Ellsworth invent the Jerk_Link? I'm more confused than usual...




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    Quote Originally Posted by deadbolt
    Didn't Tony Ellsworth invent the Jerk_Link? I'm more confused than usual...



    Good question. If he didn't invent it, he certainly put his name to it.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I made an appointment with Horst to discuss the possibility of AMP doing a suspension design for Mongoose, in 1990 "I think". when I showed up for the meeting Horst showed me an obviously older sketch showing a 'Horst link' equipped bicycle. He said he had wanted to make a bike in the past but did not know of any company interested, well Mongoose was interested and prototyping of the strut style started shortly thereafter. Horst being a thinking business man as well as mad mechanical creator also applied for patents around the same time. Karlheinz Nicolai was not even an employee when Horst was working on his first 'link' and selling it to Mongoose. Many many months later I had quit Mongoose, skied a few months and was racing moto when I talked to Horst and he and I made a deal for me to come to work for AMP, sweeping up the shop and maybe he would let me use the grinder and manual mill and simple stuff, being an ex racer he did not want a meathead getting injured on the job! So, more months go by and I am in the shop sweeping up one day and see some office types chatting up Horst in the office, Polo shirts and loafers with tassles, you know the type. Seems that they were from Specialized and were kinda jealous of Mongoose and all the love MBA was pouring over everything that Horst was doing. Sooooooo, a week later several LX equipped Stumpy somethings showed up and I was allowed to take them apart and band saw the rear ends off in preparation for suspension mounts to be welded on for prototyping. It was at this time I have my first memory of karl nicololai at AMP. Horst had the idea of a 4 bar design for Specialized, but it used a rotary damper and leaf spring set up. The rotary damper was the 4th pivot and 'bar'. It was at this time I remember Karl, who was an intern basically working as a draftsman for Horst. At that time Horst used CAD, Cardboard Aided Design, so help with the drafting duties was a full time job. Well the rotary damper as 4th bar did not work, so it was Karl that got to spend a working weekend with Horst when the flat link with little coil shock was created and what will be remembered as the first Specialized full suspension bike. I DO NOT know if it was Horst or Karl that came up with the flat link squishing the mini coil-over, but one thing is FOR SURE, Karl did not come up with the Horst Link or the 4 bar version of it. Horst was large and in charge of his company, all the time at all hours and days of the week. Unlikely that Karl contributed more than just a thought or 2, it was Horst that when he had the 'vision' could rip through multiple ideas in his mind and see where it had to go.

    David Turner


    good info Dave....personally, the part about the spec. fellers who walked in with Polo's and tasseled loafers brought a grin to my face.


    pictures of the above mentioned bikes (man, has suspension come A LONG way in 15 + years or what ?) :
    Attached Images Attached Images

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tidybeard
    I hope this clears things up. Glad to help, any time.
    LOL! - Damn, Tidy, if that ain't the mutt's nuts!

  50. #50
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    Hey! I'm about to put one of those forks on a single speed. Should be a nice little step up from a full rigid.

  51. #51
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    DT in vented the TNT link.

    Who invented the Faux Bar?

    Tony Ellsmonkey invented an imaginary pivot in front of the bike and patented it. I did that in my sleep when I was 5 yrs. old.
    Sit and spin my ass...

  52. #52
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    Let me see if I can sum all this up:
    -Nicolai was not really involved in any development at AMP
    -he just added some thoughts, if any
    -he was just a normal worker sweeping the floor etc.

    So Horst and DT are the engineers of all that HL greatness. Mmmmh, so why is there no AMP in the bike biz anymore and why is Turner back to innovative faux bar technology but Nicolai has engineered the G-Boxx standard, the G-Boxx 1 and 2 as well as the Suntour gearbox
    I wish I could hear the same story from Nicolai. Bet it will sound different
    Last edited by iRider; 10-29-2007 at 10:52 PM.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I made an appointment with Horst to discuss the possibility of AMP doing a suspension design for Mongoose, in 1990 "I think". when I showed up for the meeting Horst showed me an obviously older sketch showing a 'Horst link' equipped bicycle. He said he had wanted to make a bike in the past but did not know of any company interested, well Mongoose was interested and prototyping of the strut style started shortly thereafter. Horst being a thinking business man as well as mad mechanical creator also applied for patents around the same time. Karlheinz Nicolai was not even an employee when Horst was working on his first 'link' and selling it to Mongoose. Many many months later I had quit Mongoose, skied a few months and was racing moto when I talked to Horst and he and I made a deal for me to come to work for AMP, sweeping up the shop and maybe he would let me use the grinder and manual mill and simple stuff, being an ex racer he did not want a meathead getting injured on the job! So, more months go by and I am in the shop sweeping up one day and see some office types chatting up Horst in the office, Polo shirts and loafers with tassles, you know the type. Seems that they were from Specialized and were kinda jealous of Mongoose and all the love MBA was pouring over everything that Horst was doing. Sooooooo, a week later several LX equipped Stumpy somethings showed up and I was allowed to take them apart and band saw the rear ends off in preparation for suspension mounts to be welded on for prototyping. It was at this time I have my first memory of karl nicololai at AMP. Horst had the idea of a 4 bar design for Specialized, but it used a rotary damper and leaf spring set up. The rotary damper was the 4th pivot and 'bar'. It was at this time I remember Karl, who was an intern basically working as a draftsman for Horst. At that time Horst used CAD, Cardboard Aided Design, so help with the drafting duties was a full time job. Well the rotary damper as 4th bar did not work, so it was Karl that got to spend a working weekend with Horst when the flat link with little coil shock was created and what will be remembered as the first Specialized full suspension bike. I DO NOT know if it was Horst or Karl that came up with the flat link squishing the mini coil-over, but one thing is FOR SURE, Karl did not come up with the Horst Link or the 4 bar version of it. Horst was large and in charge of his company, all the time at all hours and days of the week. Unlikely that Karl contributed more than just a thought or 2, it was Horst that when he had the 'vision' could rip through multiple ideas in his mind and see where it had to go.

    David Turner

    Thanks for that. That was an interesting read.

    P

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    That is how patent law works. If you modify an existing design for use in a new application, you can patent it.
    Just being a bit pedantic but outside the USA thats not true. Modifying an existing design (lightly) or using an existing design in a new application doesn't count as a new design and thus will not be granted a patent.

    For all the various 4 bar linkages suspensions systems in question none have been granted patents outside the US, as they are considered copies of existing designs including motorcycle, aircraft wheel and even mundane trolly wheel suspension applications (if you look hard enough 4 bar wheel applications are everywhere).

    For the record there were motocycle suspension systems in the 20s and 30s which had what are now known as horst links (the mudguard attached to the top of the link rather than a canti hanger) and if I can really be bothered I'll find a photo and post.

    Now back to your regular program
    More bikes than you can point a broken spoke at...

  55. #55
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    dont know the guys name but i think it all started here. easy to find when i did a google search for whoreslink
    No, I'm NOT back!

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by iRider
    Let me see if I can sum all this up:
    -Nicolai was not really involved in any development at AMP
    -he just added some thoughts, if any
    -he was just a normal worker sweeping the floor etc.

    So Horst and DT are the engineers of all that HL greatness. Mmmmh, so why is there no AMP in the bike biz anymore and why is Turner back to innovative faux bar technology but Nicolai has engineered the G-Boxx standard, the G-Boxx 1 and 2 as well as the Suntour gearbox
    I wish I could hear the same story from Nicolai. Bet it will sound different
    Ummmm.... Where do I start? AMP is not in the bike business because Horst got bored with it and the other stuff that he invented/developed is a lot more lucrative. As far as the TNT-HL discussion goes, I'm not going to bother.

    Why is it so hard to believe the Karl Nicolai was not involved with the invention of the HL? Nicolai, like DT, has taken a simple, elegant invention and refined it to suit their requirements. To Karl's credit, he has also come up with some other pretty cool stuff (like the G-Boxx). I'm almost beginning to think that the Nicolai worshippers are even more cult-like than the Homers.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough

    . To Karl's credit, he has also come up with some other pretty cool stuff (like the G-Boxx). I'm almost beginning to think that the Nicolai worshippers are even more cult-like than the Homers.

    Hmmmm? Why? Because of ONE poster, at the back end of a 3 page discussion?

    And I believe it was DT that swep up?... Karl fed the cat.


    Hommers.
    Last edited by blackagness; 10-30-2007 at 06:33 AM.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I made an appointment with Horst to discuss the possibility of AMP doing a suspension design for Mongoose, in 1990 "I think". when I showed up for the meeting Horst showed me an obviously older sketch showing a 'Horst link' equipped bicycle. He said he had wanted to make a bike in the past but did not know of any company interested, well Mongoose was interested and prototyping of the strut style started shortly thereafter. Horst being a thinking business man as well as mad mechanical creator also applied for patents around the same time. Karlheinz Nicolai was not even an employee when Horst was working on his first 'link' and selling it to Mongoose. Many many months later I had quit Mongoose, skied a few months and was racing moto when I talked to Horst and he and I made a deal for me to come to work for AMP, sweeping up the shop and maybe he would let me use the grinder and manual mill and simple stuff, being an ex racer he did not want a meathead getting injured on the job! So, more months go by and I am in the shop sweeping up one day and see some office types chatting up Horst in the office, Polo shirts and loafers with tassles, you know the type. Seems that they were from Specialized and were kinda jealous of Mongoose and all the love MBA was pouring over everything that Horst was doing. Sooooooo, a week later several LX equipped Stumpy somethings showed up and I was allowed to take them apart and band saw the rear ends off in preparation for suspension mounts to be welded on for prototyping. It was at this time I have my first memory of karl nicololai at AMP. Horst had the idea of a 4 bar design for Specialized, but it used a rotary damper and leaf spring set up. The rotary damper was the 4th pivot and 'bar'. It was at this time I remember Karl, who was an intern basically working as a draftsman for Horst. At that time Horst used CAD, Cardboard Aided Design, so help with the drafting duties was a full time job. Well the rotary damper as 4th bar did not work, so it was Karl that got to spend a working weekend with Horst when the flat link with little coil shock was created and what will be remembered as the first Specialized full suspension bike. I DO NOT know if it was Horst or Karl that came up with the flat link squishing the mini coil-over, but one thing is FOR SURE, Karl did not come up with the Horst Link or the 4 bar version of it. Horst was large and in charge of his company, all the time at all hours and days of the week. Unlikely that Karl contributed more than just a thought or 2, it was Horst that when he had the 'vision' could rip through multiple ideas in his mind and see where it had to go.

    David Turner


    Thank you D T for clearing that up for the rest of us

    Cheers Artin AGA

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    It's really just Whafe and CF who have formed a two-man cult for now and are waiting for the comet again

    I think it was Lee Bridgers who invented the bike; not Tony Ellsworth. Tony just tried to patent it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    Ummmm.... Where do I start? AMP is not in the bike business because Horst got bored with it and the other stuff that he invented/developed is a lot more lucrative. As far as the TNT-HL discussion goes, I'm not going to bother.

    Why is it so hard to believe the Karl Nicolai was not involved with the invention of the HL? Nicolai, like DT, has taken a simple, elegant invention and refined it to suit their requirements. To Karl's credit, he has also come up with some other pretty cool stuff (like the G-Boxx). I'm almost beginning to think that the Nicolai worshippers are even more cult-like than the Homers.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by iRider
    Let me see if I can sum all this up:
    -Nicolai was not really involved in any development at AMP
    -he just added some thoughts, if any
    -he was just a normal worker sweeping the floor etc.

    So Horst and DT are the engineers of all that HL greatness. Mmmmh, so why is there no AMP in the bike biz anymore and why is Turner back to innovative faux bar technology but Nicolai has engineered the G-Boxx standard, the G-Boxx 1 and 2 as well as the Suntour gearbox
    I wish I could hear the same story from Nicolai. Bet it will sound different
    I don't think that's what DT said. I think you projected quite an exaggeration on his words. If you can get an elaboration directly from Karl, I'd appreciate your sharing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    ...It was at this time I have my first memory of karl nicololai at AMP. Horst had the idea of a 4 bar design for Specialized, but it used a rotary damper and leaf spring set up. The rotary damper was the 4th pivot and 'bar'. It was at this time I remember Karl, who was an intern basically working as a draftsman for Horst. At that time Horst used CAD, Cardboard Aided Design, so help with the drafting duties was a full time job. Well the rotary damper as 4th bar did not work, so it was Karl that got to spend a working weekend with Horst when the flat link with little coil shock was created and what will be remembered as the first Specialized full suspension bike. I DO NOT know if it was Horst or Karl that came up with the flat link squishing the mini coil-over, but one thing is FOR SURE, Karl did not come up with the Horst Link or the 4 bar version of it. Horst was large and in charge of his company, all the time at all hours and days of the week. Unlikely that Karl contributed more than just a thought or 2, it was Horst that when he had the 'vision' could rip through multiple ideas in his mind and see where it had to go.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    It's really just Whafe and CF who have formed a two-man cult for now and are waiting for the comet again

    I think it was Lee Bridgers who invented the bike; not Tony Ellsworth. Tony just tried to patent it.
    HAAHAHAH...That's a great and subtle reference

  62. #62
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    reading

    iRider, please re read my post carefully. I was the floor sweeper, simple machine operator etc. Karl was an college intern, drafting most of the time as he was an assisant to Horst, not a partner or equal, an intern. Horst was Captain of his ship, the rest pulled lines and swabbed the deck or figured out how to get from point A to B, but Horst was the person who said the ship was headed to B.

    Yes Karl is a mad scientist putting hubs in a box, and when the gear box concept drops considerable weight and does not pedal like it has grease in it, OR it drops so much in cost (maybe Suntour can help) that it makes sense for the pure gravity play bikes I will certainly approach with an outstretched hand in greeting and follow through with our conversation from years ago at the start of GBoxx work to build a model around it.I stand in awe of his perseverence concerning the Gboxx concept, I hope it is worth it for him.

    DT

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    ... I believe it was DT that swep up?... Karl fed the cat.
    I believe Karl fed the cat, DT changed the litterbox...

    Agnesses!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwmtb
    pictures of the above mentioned bikes (man, has suspension come A LONG way in 15 + years or what ?) :
    Thanks for the pics! I have a brokem Amplifier hanging in the garage. Amazingly, it wasn't the spindly dual down-tubes that broke, it was the drive side chainstay.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I believe Karl fed the cat, DT changed the litterbox...

    Agnesses!
    weak.

  66. #66
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    Please Do not believe anything Dave Turner says..It is I CUTTHROAT who truly invented the Horst link. There are millions of dollars in patent royalty fees that have been wrongfully withheld from me currently sitting in a Nigerian Bank awaiting electronic transfer into my account. All I need is someone here in the US who can act as my agent to arrange the transfer - please, just send me your name, social security number, bank routing number, bank account number, VISA card number with security code, and your mother's maiden name, and I will gladly share these millions of dollars with you 50/50 - thanks you so much for your time - Ibraheeme Ali Mjeen (aka "Cutthroat")
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  67. #67
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    lets not make it a religion, it is recreation

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    Please Do not believe anything Dave Turner says..It is I CUTTHROAT who truly invented the Horst link. There are millions of dollars in patent royalty fees that have been wrongfully withheld from me currently sitting in a Nigerian Bank awaiting electronic transfer into my account. All I need is someone here in the US who can act as my agent to arrange the transfer - please, just send me your name, social security number, bank routing number, bank account number, VISA card number with security code, and your mother's maiden name, and I will gladly share these millions of dollars with you 50/50 - thanks you so much for your time - Ibraheeme Ali Mjeen (aka "Cutthroat")
    Awesome! PM sent with all the required info.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  69. #69
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    inbraheeme- PM sent. Please effect the bank transfer with much haste. If you must send me a bike given your immense generosity, please arrange for a white RFX.

    Consider me your US agent and do treat my confidential and financial information with discretion. I also accept Western Union.

  70. #70
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    I wonder what Nicolai owners tie their shoes with?

  71. #71
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    Puddle welds?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Puddle welds?

    I was thinking little natzis.

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