Not super interested in a DW Link- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    Daniel the Dog
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    Not super interested in a DW Link

    For some reason I'm just not all that interested or excited about getting a DW Link Turner. I think they probably ride fantastic and all that jazz but I'm still very satisfied with my HL Turner. I know, I'm a low expectation SOB but I'm happy as heck and sticking with my bike. Sorry Dave.

    Jaybo

  2. #2
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    Ground hog's Jay

    Welcome to last month:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I still love that crazy '03 Spot and really am not all that motivated to get a new fangled Spot. Anyone else feel this way?

    Jaybo
    Was this trip really necessary?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Welcome to last month:



    Was this trip really necessary?
    Alex "Quick Search" McGraw!

  4. #4
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    Sapa employee's income tax/property tax/etc. do what?
    sorry jaybo...

  5. #5
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    Is it that time of the month again?

  6. #6
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    Could be due to the new RIP9 that's showing up, eh?

  7. #7
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    I feel your pain

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    For some reason I'm just not all that interested or excited about getting a DW Link Turner. I think they probably ride fantastic and all that jazz but I'm still very satisfied with my HL Turner. I know, I'm a low expectation SOB but I'm happy as heck and sticking with my bike. Sorry Dave.

    Jaybo
    Turner is one of the best small bike companies and had a cult following similar to the Grateful Dead. I have lost my interest too, just because I do not like the DW design and maybe is my imagination but it feels like Turner is a sell out. That is just how it feels but I am sure it made business sense to go DW.

    Customer Service and Quality are still top notch but the uniqueness is gone. No Franken adaptability, or super customability.

    You can tell that the Turner forum has shown decrease traffic and is no longer the "go to" forum. Some of the Turner forum hall of famers don't even post anymore.

    Don't know, it is one of those weird business moves that may not have worked. Not sure how the P&L and their free cash flow is looking lately for Turner but the frames are way too expensive to compete. There are so many "same" kind of frames out there that makes it hard to shell out the $$$.

    Maybe the target market now is AM / DH riding where they can still compete.... but that is closing fast...
    Sit and spin my ass...

  8. #8
    Seeeriously easy Livin
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    No you are still the only person that feels this way you grumpy old goat

  9. #9
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    ZR look at the forum numbers. The attendence is down on all of the MTBR forums. They went south with the economy. Some botique forums hover in the single digits at times. But yeah a lot of ppl went MIA but it happened across the board.


    As for the DW vs the classic designs. I haven't had any time on one so I'll reserve judgement. And since my budget went south with the economy, I won't be buying any kind of bike right now.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  10. #10
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    ...dp, nm...
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 09-13-2009 at 07:04 PM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  11. #11
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    Have you riden a DW turner? Or any other DW bike for that matter?

    There is a little hype to it sure. Latest and greatest. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

    For me though, its the best suspension I've ridden. Ride one. Its a way better design than HL/ICT.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIMBERRR
    Have you riden a DW turner? Or any other DW bike for that matter?

    There is a little hype to it sure. Latest and greatest. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

    For me though, its the best suspension I've ridden. Ride one. Its a way better design than HL/ICT.
    +1

  13. #13
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIMBERRR

    For me though, its the best suspension I've ridden. Ride one. Its a way better design than HL/ICT.
    But ICT is WORLD RECOGNIZED!
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    But ICT is WORLD RECOGNIZED!
    HAHAHAHAHAHA. The world can have it. DW is bettahhhh!

  15. #15
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    DW is for those who have more money than time.

    Spend a few years tweeking an old Turner to suit your tastes and I venture to say that it would hold it's own against any stock DW.

  16. #16
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    But ICT is WORLD RECOGNIZED!
    And 110% efficient. Let's not forget
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  17. #17
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    I agree...that can only mean that it is the best!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    But ICT is WORLD RECOGNIZED!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Welcome to last month:



    Was this trip really necessary?
    It's deja vu all over again.

    Jaybo have old Turner
    Jaybo like old Turner
    Jaybo no buy new Turner

    OK we get it. No DW for Jaybo.

    Move on down the trial on whatever floats your boat.
    "One often finds their destiny on the road taken to avoid it" - Master Ugway

  19. #19
    Daniel the Dog
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    You guys

    Are the main reason I am tired of this stupid board. What a bunch of idiots!

  20. #20
    Daniel the Dog
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    Hmm

    Quote Originally Posted by TIMBERRR
    Have you riden a DW turner? Or any other DW bike for that matter?

    There is a little hype to it sure. Latest and greatest. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

    For me though, its the best suspension I've ridden. Ride one. Its a way better design than HL/ICT.
    The TNT (err seatstay link) was the best riding design to you homers just a year ago. The Ibis and other DW Link bikes were not even mentioned. DT could tell you that drinking urine will make you strong and you guys would do it.

    Jaybo

  21. #21
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  22. #22
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    I think he'll be happy with his DWL alternative

  23. #23
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    Bring back the truth squad..

    To dislike a bike just because you may not like a couple of the people associated with the brand is simply infantile.
    What happened to the days of liking a bike design simply because it rode better.
    That's what put me on a DW.
    Go ahead and get all sour and feel all pissy that you can't afford one..
    if you could afford one, it wouldn't be a dissapointment...
    It is impossible to get a five year old HL turner to ride as good as the new DW...
    PS, I have ridden the HL the TNT and the DW..
    Optimist's and pessimists, Hmmmm

  24. #24
    fnar fnar brrraaaaap
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    marins quad link is where its at biatches....



  25. #25
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    DW link or non-DW link........
    I think that in these tough times, as long as we love to ride Turner bikes.
    That is all that really matters.

    If DT puts his name on it is a Turner. End of story.

    If you want to have a pi$$ing contest over which bike is better in design. Doing it over the computer is all speculation and wasting time.
    Get together and have a DW link vs non DW link showdown.

    Just my 2 cents.

  26. #26
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    No way man,
    I'm going back to the roots, and gettin some boots...walking is where its at..
    all these bike's and stuff are just crutches( just like GD's)


    in reference to DT's DW decision..
    to make judgments about someone else's business decision without actually being that person or being completely informed about the subject, is a direct reflection of the lack of intelligence of the person making the judgment.
    or was that to complicated for the disenchanted.

  27. #27
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    Not to try to make something meaningful from this hilarious conversation. But I found this while searching for a thread about the difference between the suspension types of an Ellsworth (the Epiphany, which I rode the other day) and the 5 spot. Since the world recognized system came up, I thought I'd ask.

    They look very similar, but I have not been able to find much in the way of an explained comparison. Why is the DW better, or are they really similar? I liked the plush feeling of the Ellsworth, but I thought it bobbed quite a bit and I do not like grabbing for the pro pedal all the time. I also thought it felt a bit heavy.

    I have a Fisher HiFi '08 and am looking for a bike where the suspension still works under braking.

  28. #28
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    I can understand not being interested in something.

    I'm not interested in NFL, MLB or any of that crap. I just don't "get" it. I don't get why I should care about some game somewhere played by some other people. Maybe it would be different if I actually did those sports, but on the other hand I don't really care about MTB races either. All we see on TV is "NFL this" and "NFL that", and I just don't get any of it. I go out and ride my bike and have fun. About the only thing worse than watching sports on TV is "Fantasy" football. I'm happy as heck ignoring that stuff and just riding my bike. Sorry nework TV and "sports".
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Are the main reason I am tired of this stupid board. What a bunch of idiots!
    Do you not realize you opened this thread with the hope that others on the board would sympathize with you not jumping to a new DW bike? That was the point of this thread, right?
    .
    Last edited by NWfreeride; 09-13-2009 at 11:05 PM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by twelve34
    Not to try to make something meaningful from this hilarious conversation. But I found this while searching for a thread about the difference between the suspension types of an Ellsworth (the Epiphany, which I rode the other day) and the 5 spot. Since the world recognized system came up, I thought I'd ask.

    They look very similar, but I have not been able to find much in the way of an explained comparison. Why is the DW better, or are they really similar? I liked the plush feeling of the Ellsworth, but I thought it bobbed quite a bit and I do not like grabbing for the pro pedal all the time. I also thought it felt a bit heavy.

    I have a Fisher HiFi '08 and am looking for a bike where the suspension still works under braking.
    You should be able to find quite a few threads on that and similer subjects with a few searches.

    For myself, all I have to do is watch Tony Ellsworth's videos and how he bashes other designs to know that he's just full of sh*t. That's usually one of those red flags that's pretty easy to see. There are some good Ellsworth bikes, but there have been some flaws too. You can even look up the Chumba debacle if you want a lot of reading, but you'll see a common thread, downplaying or bashing other designs to make your own stand out. If you have to go to those lengths in the first place, how well does your bike stand on it's own?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  31. #31
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    It's Clown Crap Friday on a Monday morning. And to the poster above commenting on DT's business decisions---STFU.
    Who's in charge, the thinker or the thought?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    You should be able to find quite a few threads on that and similer subjects with a few searches.

    For myself, all I have to do is watch Tony Ellsworth's videos and how he bashes other designs to know that he's just full of sh*t. That's usually one of those red flags that's pretty easy to see. There are some good Ellsworth bikes, but there have been some flaws too. You can even look up the Chumba debacle if you want a lot of reading, but you'll see a common thread, downplaying or bashing other designs to make your own stand out. If you have to go to those lengths in the first place, how well does your bike stand on it's own?

    The Ellsworth Site is a Joke, it's soooo bad that nobody cares what TE says: so it's harmless.

    The DW-Link site looks good, It doesn't bash anyone, but there is a LOT OF HYPE too. The site doesn't lie, but doesn't tell all the truth (Balanced Braking, Pedal Feedback...). And it realy needs an update too, It should explain the evolution of the DW-Link in the last years, the difference between the models designed around Air and coil Shocks....

  33. #33
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    This thread is funny... but .... Ho hum...

    I guess its time to ride my DW spot up my favorite climb and down my favorite descent.

    Tomorrow, its the TNT RFX's turn.

    Life is good.

  34. #34
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    Dw link or no Dw link who cares? if somebody like it or not who cares?
    Less talk and more riding this is the way I see it.

    Live positive

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    The TNT (err seatstay link) was the best riding design to you homers just a year ago. The Ibis and other DW Link bikes were not even mentioned. DT could tell you that drinking urine will make you strong and you guys would do it.

    Jaybo

    Did DT say that drinking urine will make you strong?

  36. #36
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    Will someone pass the urine, please?

    PS: You'd have to put a pretty BIG 'spin' on pee in order for me to drink it . I definitely won't buy in to first year piss.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Will someone pass the urine, please?

    PS: You'd have to put a pretty BIG 'spin' on pee in order for me to drink it . I definitely won't buy in to first year piss.

    What happened to the kool aid?

  38. #38
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    JC was banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    For some reason I'm just not all that interested or excited about getting a DW Link Turner. I think they probably ride fantastic and all that jazz but I'm still very satisfied with my HL Turner. I know, I'm a low expectation SOB but I'm happy as heck and sticking with my bike. Sorry Dave.

    Jaybo
    Why not this guy?
    Just thinking
    Scott
    What does Marsellus Wallace look like, A BIT*H?

  39. #39
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    Jaybo does have a point.

    But I think it missed some of the flat heads here. Do you make you, or does someone else?





    Seems the theme in some things today is that everything is better with zombies.

  40. #40
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    It's limited to one flavor.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    I have lost my interest too, just because I do not like the DW design and maybe is my imagination but it feels like Turner is a sell out.
    The only thing Turner is sold out to is the best riding experience possible. Not everyone may be completely sold on the move to DW Link, but they seem to be the rare exception. By and large most people who have ridden and/or owned one would agree that the improvement is well worth the cost; and while it may mean an extra few hundred dollars up front for the riders, think about what DT had invested in the move. This wasn't "selling out" (i.e. taking the easy money), this was betting the house that he could build a better riding bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    Customer Service and Quality are still top notch but the uniqueness is gone.
    Right, because US made DW bikes are a dime a dozen.

    Five or six years ago Turner was one of a handful of US builders doing FSR bikes.

    Then, after the move to TNT, they had a lot in common with Ventana.

    Now they're truly in a league of their own. If you want another DW bike at all, it's coming from Asia and is either carbon or reliant on integrated headset/bottom bracket/front derailleur thingies.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    For some reason I'm just not all that interested or excited about getting a DW Link Turner. I think they probably ride fantastic and all that jazz but I'm still very satisfied with my HL Turner. I know, I'm a low expectation SOB but I'm happy as heck and sticking with my bike. Sorry Dave.

    Jaybo
    Sounds like me. I've tried the Santa Cruz Blur, but will stick with my simple, light, rigid, no maintenance, single pivot Superlight.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    Jaybo does have a point.

    But I think it missed some of the flat heads here. Do you make you, or does someone else?
    Really? That's the point you derived his initial posts? Hold on a sec let me read it again... nope, not even between the lines. I can appreciate what you're saying but I'm not sure how Jaybo announcing to everyone that he's not getting a DW translates into "be true to yourself." Maybe if the DW Highline was available and even then it would be a stretch. You give him too much credit.

    EDIT: I just read his follow up post. Still giving him too much credit. I don't think the reason Jaybo isn't on a DW linked bike has anything to do with this forums' general perception of Dave or his designs. I think he simply whines more that my five year old on his brother's birthday.
    Last edited by CrashTheDOG; 09-15-2009 at 07:36 AM.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    The only thing Turner is sold out to is the best riding experience possible. Not everyone may be completely sold on the move to DW Link, but they seem to be the rare exception. By and large most people who have ridden and/or owned one would agree that the improvement is well worth the cost; and while it may mean an extra few hundred dollars up front for the riders, think about what DT had invested in the move. This wasn't "selling out" (i.e. taking the easy money), this was betting the house that he could build a better riding bike.
    Well said Miles


  45. #45
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    Homers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    The TNT (err seatstay link) was the best riding design to you homers just a year ago. The Ibis and other DW Link bikes were not even mentioned. DT could tell you that drinking urine will make you strong and you guys would do it.

    Jaybo
    Well said Jaybo

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve
    Sounds like me. I've tried the Santa Cruz Blur, but will stick with my simple, light, rigid, no maintenance, single pivot Superlight.
    i spent 5 years on the ih dw link bikes, went 29r, because of cost bought the 08 closeout sultan, either because i was soooooo used to the dw link, or? but the tnt just did not cut it,sold it, spent the money on the dw sultan, and wow , much much better, felt like my old ride, but!!! the sultan, fit me much better that the 26r's. just my personal op,if one favors his old bike/design, lucky him, he saves his$$$$

  47. #47
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    Oh, the drama!

    I remember when suspension forks and frames were new to the mtb world.
    Much of the established off road cycling community decried their introduction. The "core" riders would never bolt that stuff to their rigs, too heavy too complicated too much to go wrong.
    Besides real riders don't need squishy bikes.
    Disc brakes came along several years later to much the same reaction.
    The early versions of these advancements were rough and had issues, but they were clearly the future. Still it took a long time for the luddites to accept them.
    Mountain biking seems to have a certain degree of carry-over from our roadie past, namely the denial of any progress as being unnecessary.
    My rim brakes work fine, why would I need those expensive and complicated disc brakes?
    I can ride trails just fine on my ridged steel-is-real bike, why would I want suspension?

    Yes, your older Turners ride just as sweet as they always did, no question.
    No, you do not NEED a new bike just because one is available.
    Additionally, there is no need to be bitter because the world continues to advance around you.

    There is a certain segment of this board who seem determined to dislike the DW bikes regardless.
    That's great, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    Still, none of the naysayers seem to have any significant ride time on the new bikes (one test ride hardly counts as real saddle time). That said, one bike or type of bike may not be perfect for everyone.

    Most of us who have been riding the new bikes for a while really like them, based purely on performance.

    These lame threads telling everyone that you don't need a new bike sound more like a cry for attention than anything else.

    Next time you feel the need to post another one of these threads just go for a ride on your perfectly good HL Turner and snicker at those of us wasting our money on the unneeded advancements offered by the new bikes.
    I bet you'll be happier.

  48. #48
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    It's not about new technology or bikes, it's about the lemmings(at least some) here that change their tune on a regular basis depending on what DT does.

    -Horst link was the end all be all design 4 years ago, faux bars(like the TNT) and the DW link were inferior and gimmicky according to the Homers
    -TNT came along and suddenly it was the best, stiffer, same axle path, what's not to like right?
    -Then the DW bomb, suddenly the TNT was inferior with too much squat and the same propedal that everyone used and liked was now evil. I remember more than a few threads where current DW Homers were blasting the Mojo or other DW designs as over hyped.

    This place reminds me of that classic story "The Emperor's clothes", and the Homers are walking around naked thinking only the intelligent can see their fine threads. Jaybo is the kid yelling "but the emperor has no clothes!"

  49. #49
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    It is about progress.

    In regards to threads about other DW designs, every bike company that uses the design produces a different result.
    It is just as foolish to assume every HL bike behaves the same or every VPP bike rides the exact same way.

    Additionally, the bigger players who use/used the DW link have had their share of issues that have little to do with the actual suspension design.
    IH had QC issues that plagued them the entire time they made DW bikes.
    Ibis seems to have a lot of complaints mainly based on flex and under built frames.

    URTs had their share of fans back in the day, are the riders who realized there were better designs available lemmings too?

    Maybe you should start a Flat Earth Society chapter here on the board for those who refuse to accept change.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder

    -Horst link was the end all be all design 4 years ago, faux bars(like the TNT) and the DW link were inferior and gimmicky according to the Homers
    -TNT came along and suddenly it was the best, stiffer, same axle path, what's not to like right?
    As I posted on the Ventana board, I think that idea is a huge over-simplification of the issue. You act as if it was all one big voice agreeing, but that is not true. With that said, there could have been one end-all-be-all design a few years ago, and something new and better now. That's called progress.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  51. #51
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    Sorry, I don't buy the argument that DT's version is somehow superior, it's the same susp design. I can see how other variables make DT's version a better handling bike or perhaps stiffer with the bushing pivots but I imagine the Mojo, Pivot, and even the IH's(which I demo'd and wasn't impressed compared to my old RFX) ride very similar and these are the bikes the Homers were bashing a year ago like Jaybo pointed out.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Sorry, I don't buy the argument that DT's version is somehow superior, it's the same susp design.
    It's pretty obvious after riding a Mach 5 and a 5 Spot that there are very real differences in the execution of the DW link. Which one is "superior" is going to come down to rider preference, but it would seem to follow that those who have historically gravitated towards Turners will most appreciate DT's version.

    BTW, there were plenty of Homers intrigued by DW link this whole time, in addition to some who may have dismissed it (or at least other brand's execution of it).
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  53. #53
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    I wasn't interested either....till I rode one

    Best trail bike I have ever ridden or owned, hands down more fun than all these:

    02 RFX (my all time favorite, till now)
    04 5 Spot
    05 RFX
    06 MKIII
    07 SC Nomad (sorry Dave)
    08 5 Spot
    08 RFX
    09 SC Nomad (sorry again dave, I strayed)

    Pair the DW Spot with some PUSH goodness & you have yourself a wicked all mountain machine. First time I rode it I could not believe it had only 5.5" of travel, & this was on 3+ mile, high speed technical Colorado trails that could easily be ridden on a DH bike & be fun.

    Ahh, the Kool Aid tastes great
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  54. #54
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    There were several objective and subjective factors that put me off the DW Sultan - the DW version is almost a pound heavier than my current bike, the '09 TT is shorter, the FD cable clearance is too tight, the downtube cable routing is also not as good as the current design IMO, the reports of clunking and creaking that require an ant-seize fix, no options to swap rockers and tweak the ride, very expensive frame. Subjective - I don't like the aesthetics of the DW design at all. The DW suspension performance would have to be vastly superior to the '08 model to make up for these deficiencies IMO, and based on the few DW rides I've done I didn't notice that much improvement over my current ride. In fact, I like my existing bike better (but the demo I rode wasn't tweaked to fit me as well either). There are plenty of valid reasons why the '08s and earlier might appeal to someone. Suspension design is just one piece of the over-all picture, and generally over-hyped I think.
    Last edited by cutthroat; 09-15-2009 at 12:41 PM.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  55. #55
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    You just need a larger sized DW koolaid cutty

    Miles- I hear ya, your one of the rational homers in my book!

  56. #56
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    Drama

    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider
    Oh, the drama!

    I remember when suspension forks and frames were new to the mtb world.
    Much of the established off road cycling community decried their introduction. The "core" riders would never bolt that stuff to their rigs, too heavy too complicated too much to go wrong.
    Besides real riders don't need squishy bikes.
    Disc brakes came along several years later to much the same reaction.
    The early versions of these advancements were rough and had issues, but they were clearly the future. Still it took a long time for the luddites to accept them.
    Mountain biking seems to have a certain degree of carry-over from our roadie past, namely the denial of any progress as being unnecessary.
    My rim brakes work fine, why would I need those expensive and complicated disc brakes?
    I can ride trails just fine on my ridged steel-is-real bike, why would I want suspension?

    Yes, your older Turners ride just as sweet as they always did, no question.
    No, you do not NEED a new bike just because one is available.
    Additionally, there is no need to be bitter because the world continues to advance around you.

    There is a certain segment of this board who seem determined to dislike the DW bikes regardless.
    That's great, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    Still, none of the naysayers seem to have any significant ride time on the new bikes (one test ride hardly counts as real saddle time). That said, one bike or type of bike may not be perfect for everyone.

    Most of us who have been riding the new bikes for a while really like them, based purely on performance.

    These lame threads telling everyone that you don't need a new bike sound more like a cry for attention than anything else.

    Next time you feel the need to post another one of these threads just go for a ride on your perfectly good HL Turner and snicker at those of us wasting our money on the unneeded advancements offered by the new bikes.
    I bet you'll be happier.
    Well said!

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutthroat
    ...the '09 chainstays are almost an inch longer...
    Huh? They're exactly the same length.


  58. #58
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    DeeZee, are you just going to agree with and suck up to everyone in this thread, or are you going to show us that you have a couple braincells of your own?
    ****

  59. #59
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    There is nothing wrong with being not interested in all the new technology. That is not saying you don't acknowledge the advancements.
    For myself, and a lot of other riders who have been around through the hundreds of innovations over the last 20 years, we have learned our lessons in parting with hard earned cash for all these so called technological breakthroughs. I have spent money countless times to upgrade outdated equipment. U brakes to cantilevers to v brakes to discs. Top mount thumb shifters to push push to grip shift to trigger shift, no travel to 2" to 3" to 4" etc. rigid fork to spring fork to air fork to adjustable travel air fork, etc.
    After 90% of my upgrades, I get on my bike and feel a bit of regret. The modern high tech parts don't feel much different, or maybe different but not an improvement.
    And the bottom line is the riding experience, and I probably wouldn't enjoy my favorite trail any less if I did it on my first mountain bike, a 1988 Raliegh.
    Technology is cool, and if it was free I'd have all the latest stuff. And if I had all the latest stuff I might ride a cool DW link Turner one day, and a hardtail the next.
    Some people get more wrapped up in the technology and hardware part of the sport than others. That's ok. I don't respect a rider any more or less based on what he is riding.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Huh? They're exactly the same length.
    You're right - my mistake. OK sign me up.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider

    There is a certain segment of this board who seem determined to dislike the DW bikes regardless.
    That's great, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
    Still, none of the naysayers seem to have any significant ride time on the new bikes (one test ride hardly counts as real saddle time). That said, one bike or type of bike may not be perfect for everyone.

    Most of us who have been riding the new bikes for a while really like them, based purely on performance.

    These lame threads telling everyone that you don't need a new bike sound more like a cry for attention than anything else.

    Next time you feel the need to post another one of these threads just go for a ride on your perfectly good HL Turner and snicker at those of us wasting our money on the unneeded advancements offered by the new bikes.
    I bet you'll be happier.
    +1
    well put 1SR.
    "flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes."

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Are the main reason I am tired of this stupid board. What a bunch of idiots!

    Bet We hear this next month too, when you Post yet again how you dislike a bike you haven't even ridden.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Sorry, I don't buy the argument that DT's version is somehow superior, it's the same susp design. I can see how other variables make DT's version a better handling bike or perhaps stiffer with the bushing pivots but I imagine the Mojo, Pivot, and even the IH's(which I demo'd and wasn't impressed compared to my old RFX) ride very similar and these are the bikes the Homers were bashing a year ago like Jaybo pointed out.
    First of all, a lot of people have bashed IHs. I did. Their design and quality sucked. It wasn't that the suspension didn't work, it was that they designed it with "flat" rockers that required a long bolt that was prone to bending. After a while this was fixed, but the mark III rear triangles were breaking. Look at all the threads on the 7point and other DW IH pivots getting excessive play. My buddie's IH was misaligned and the shock hardware was incorrect (but unknown to IH cause the bikes came from taiwan and no one had "opened em up" at this point). The chainstays on my SGS broke because there were undersized and underdesigned. I had direct experience with them, and their bikes were shoddy to say the least. DW finally designed the Sunday "redesign" and helped them a bit, but IH quality and design was pretty poor all around.

    I haven't heard of many people bashing Pivot, but I did take the opportunity to point out that in their Firebird Video they said you coud put a 7 or 8" Dual Crown DH fork and build the bike up for full on DH riding. Pivot seemed to push the fact that the bike could be used and built for anything, and if you watched the video that seemed to be what they were indicating. At the same time, they were backing off from the "do anything with this bike" line, but did not change the video. It's obvious that the firebird isn't a full on DH bike, but go watch that video and see for yourself. Other than that, I'm not aware of any bashing or anything.

    Then there's Ibis. Just like IH, they've been known to spec the wrong shocks for some of their DW bikes, that right there doesn't help the image out much. The Mojo isn't the stiffest bike out there, but a huge amount of damage has been done by Derby and how much he hyped that bike up, which was way past it's capabilities.

    None of this really has anything to do with these bikes being DW bikes, except for IH and Ibis specing the wrong shocks, but even then, they're not being bashed because they're not turners, they're being bashed for other valid reasons usually.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    Are the main reason I am tired of this stupid board. What a bunch of idiots!
    Insufferable twat.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
    - Albert Einstein

  65. #65
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    Ok.....

    [QUOTE=Zion Rasta]Don't know, it is one of those weird business moves that may not have worked.[QUOTE]

    At least DT hasn't sold out to the Carbon-Fiber marketing craze, yet. Jebus.... you can hardly look at a mountain bike these days and not see CF. DT still has a soul.

    I like DT's style..... if you're going to introduce new technology, introduce someting that actually makes a difference on the ride quality. This can get tricky because the benefits of the new techology must significantly out weight dis-advantages of the old technology. I've ridden a couple of DW frames and I think there's something meaningful in this technology.... they both rode extremely well IMO.

    I contrast this with Titus. I'm currently riding a "real" Titus... one produced during the CC years...... and I refuse to buy into the marketing hype Titus is pushing. Good lord.... take a look at the stuff they're pushing..... and the reviews have not been glowing.... Unlike DT's stuff.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    Last edited by EndUser; 09-15-2009 at 05:14 PM.
    My advice and $3 will buy you nothing more than a tunafish sandwich

  66. #66
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    I think Davide and Derby are mising some input here. I wish they would give us some valuable knowledge. And unless you have at least 2,500 posts, your opinion can't mean much. Your cred and knowledge go up with each post count. Before that, you're an e-moron. Oh wait, that would normally include someone like myself but there are exceptions....just a couple.

  67. #67
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    Cutty, what did you replace your RFX with?

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    What a bunch of idiots!
    I agree with Jaybo

    Though I do like my current DW, and I liked my 06 RFX.

    And congrats Jaybo on a successful post...well done

  69. #69
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    Dw, tnt, horst, ict, single, maestro, if its on a bike, I'll ride it. Heck new technology (Dw) saved me over a grand on my tnt frame so that was a good thing and I'm really pleased with the ride. When something new comes out, I will pick up the Dw frame on closeout.

  70. #70
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    I am waiting for the hard tail Turner 29er... Ventana has one...
    So what would it be Scandium, AL, Carbon, or 853?
    Sit and spin my ass...

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    I am waiting for the hard tail Turner 29er... Ventana has one...
    So what would it be Scandium, AL, Carbon, or 853?
    there is only one material for a hardtail, Ti, and you can take that to the bank

  72. #72
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    Yummy.

    I like Turners changes. It means durable frames and excellent prices when the new fads go into production.

    The justifying otherwise is so entertaining.
    Last edited by lidarman; 09-15-2009 at 10:02 PM.

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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    For some reason I'm just not all that interested or excited about getting a DW Link Turner. I think they probably ride fantastic and all that jazz but I'm still very satisfied with my HL Turner. I know, I'm a low expectation SOB but I'm happy as heck and sticking with my bike. Sorry Dave.

    Jaybo
    wow, its been a long time since the good old days when visiting the turner board was a daily ritual. seeing this thread brings back the move to tnt era.

    in retrospect the one thing that still bothers me is that turner had to stop using his HL design becuase of ict taking out a patent on a preexisting design and to avoid a disastrous legal battle. i know its beating a very, very dead horse but ive been known to hold grudges.

    you have to respect dt for pulling the rug under itc's feet by switching designs to tnt - the man cut his losses and moved ahead. still i wish that instead he would have stuck to HL and maybe moved the link a couple mm up (like rocky mountain did with the altitude bikes) and stick it in tony's face

    as for DWL i kind of agree with jaybo. for one thing i don't like the hyperbole "anti squat" and somehow all the dual link bikes out there just don't look right.

    as far as ride performance i should shut up since i have never ridden one - but all the other types of dual links i rode had some kind of chain tension (anti squat?) built in and for my style of riding can never match the neutral handling of a well executed HL in technical climbing and fast descending.

    i still own two HL turners and i dread the day that they will give in and i will have to switch.

  75. #75
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    [QUOTE=EndUser][QUOTE=Zion Rasta]Don't know, it is one of those weird business moves that may not have worked.

    At least DT hasn't sold out to the Carbon-Fiber marketing craze, yet. Jebus.... you can hardly look at a mountain bike these days and not see CF. DT still has a soul.

    I like DT's style..... if you're going to introduce new technology, introduce someting that actually makes a difference on the ride quality. This can get tricky because the benefits of the new techology must significantly out weight dis-advantages of the old technology. I've ridden a couple of DW frames and I think there's something meaningful in this technology.... they both rode extremely well IMO.

    I contrast this with Titus. I'm currently riding a "real" Titus... one produced during the CC years...... and I refuse to buy into the marketing hype Titus is pushing. Good lord.... take a look at the stuff they're pushing..... and the reviews have not been glowing.... Unlike DT's stuff.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    Actually, most reviews of the new Titus bikes have been really good, so I don't know what you are talking about. Most reviews (by non homers) of the DW liked Turners have said that the new Turners are incremental improvements on an already good design. Same basic statement made with the new Titus line of bikes. The exception has been the EG which has had amazing glowing reviews.

    At the same time, I would say the you are getting milked when buying a Turner. At least a Ventanna or Intense are made in house. I would say that a Turner is made using older, heavier tubes with a suspension system designed by someone else. The only way I can think of the reason they chose the price point was to reduce demand (so it can be met) or to line the pockets. Actually the $200-$300 upcharge on each bike is probably built in for warranty replacements. This would agree with their warranty process, which is excellent, but really why not, it has already been paid for.

    At the same time, don't get me wrong, I have not ridden a dw linked Turner (have ridden dw linked Iron horses) but have ridden a TNT 5.5 spot and was really impressed. Great bike.

    And I don't like carbon either, made in China crap that ruins the world. Don't personally like aluminum either. $2500 for something that only last 3-5 years. Crap if you ask me.

    Now I am rambling....

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    there is only one material for a hardtail, Ti, and you can take that to the bank

    Personally I think STEEL IS REAL!!!
    TI is too soft/flexy. To get a stiff rear end out of TI you have to use way more material. There goes the weight savings. Just my .02

    Sorry back to the squabling.

  77. #77
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    Wow, when I bought my 08 RFX I thought I was buying a bike, little did I know I was joining a cult. They're just friggin bikes for crips sake, they have no soul, no matter what you peeps say. It does happen to be the nicest MTB I ever owned though and I wouldn't mind trying a DW Spot either. What a top notch troll job Jaybo, hats off.

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    Whats with the lonely ole' DW? The TNT's like to travel in packs....owoooooooo!
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by PSI
    as far as ride performance i should shut up since i have never ridden one
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus
    At the same time, don't get me wrong, I have not ridden a dw linked Turner
    Quote Originally Posted by victim
    I wouldn't mind trying a DW Spot either
    Anyone else noticing a common theme here? I'm not saying everyone will fall in love with the DW bikes even after riding one, but why would you dismiss it before you have done so?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zion Rasta
    I am waiting for the hard tail Turner 29er... Ventana has one...
    So what would it be Scandium, AL, Carbon, or 853?
    So let me get this straight- in the same thread you both criticize Turner for losing their "uniqueness", and subsequently request they release a 29" hardtail?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    but why would you dismiss it before you have done so?
    Because there is a $2500 pricetag?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by victim
    They're just friggin bikes for crips sake, they have no soul, no matter what you peeps say.
    You need to find more quality time with your RFX.
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosehead
    Cutty, what did you replace your RFX with?
    I am dedicating myself to the Sultan full time off road and riding the Litespeed the rest of the time. The stable has gone from 7 bikes to just two.The proceeds of the sale(s) went into some new brakes for the Sultan (Elixir CRs), a Dura Ace kit for the road bike, and a few new tires. Life is simpler now.
    When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells

  84. #84
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    You know if USPS

    Didnt run over my HL Spot i might just still have it. *******s

    Jaybo[/QUOTE]

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jaybo
    I still love that crazy '03 Spot and really am not all that motivated to get a new fangled Spot. Anyone else feel this way?

    Jaybo

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by toHELLuRIDE
    Personally I think STEEL IS REAL!!!
    TI is too soft/flexy. To get a stiff rear end out of TI you have to use way more material. There goes the weight savings. Just my .02

    Sorry back to the squabling.
    blah blah blah...ANY frame material can be stiff, and any can be flexy. try a proper designed bike of any material and all is good

    i have been on FLEXY steel frame and Ti, blah blah blah

    Steel is real is such a ghey cliche, that alone makes me want to sell mine

    also, lots of people who cant afford Ti (not necessarily talking about you) seem to be prone to preferring steel over Ti

    though ultimately, the most important thing, regardless of frame material, is to have a tapered steerer tube

  86. #86
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    It's all about how it looks here:


  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    It's all about how it looks here:

    & performs here (yes, that is an 09 Nomad, Spot smoked it in all areas)
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Because there is a $2500 pricetag?
    No doubt the price might put a Turner squarely out of reach for some, especially those who were introduced to the brand via the various closeout fire sales (as I was with my XCE 6.5 years ago) and were able to build up a bike in the ~$2.5k range if they were so inclined. Most likely they won't be able to repeat that with a DW Turner anytime soon.

    Historically though, most Turner builds (when the frame is not being blown out, and with high end parts to match the boutique frame) will easily approach $4,000, if not $5,000. So in that sense the move to DW Link adds 10-15% to the price tag of the bike, which would be comparable to opting for top of the line wheels/fork/brakes/drivetrain etc. over middle of the road ones.

    It's obviously up to each rider to decide if the DW Link "upgrade" is worth the price of admission, it just seems that actually trying the bikes should play a prominent role in that determination.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  89. #89
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    Braincells

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    DeeZee, are you just going to agree with and suck up to everyone in this thread, or are you going to show us that you have a couple braincells of your own?
    Well said!

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee
    Well said!
    I guess you save your words and wisdom for the 29'er forum. oh, and Fo's blag. A good use of your resources.
    ****

  91. #91
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    Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    blah blah blah...ANY frame material can be stiff, and any can be flexy. try a proper designed bike of any material and all is good

    i have been on FLEXY steel frame and Ti, blah blah blah

    Steel is real is such a ghey cliche, that alone makes me want to sell mine

    also, lots of people who cant afford Ti (not necessarily talking about you) seem to be prone to preferring steel over Ti

    though ultimately, the most important thing, regardless of frame material, is to have a tapered steerer tube
    Ti is only good for e-riding and impressing the dimwits at the trail head.

  92. #92
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    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    I guess you save your words and wisdom for the 29'er forum. oh, and Fo's blag. A good use of your resources.
    I get paid to be a mod on Fo's blog.

    The dip$h!ts on the 29'er board need my advice.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee
    I get paid to be a mod on Fo's blog.

    The dip$h!ts on the 29'er board need my advice.
    the 29er forum is Mikesee's blahg

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueMountain
    I think Davide and Derby are mising some input here. I wish they would give us some valuable knowledge. And unless you have at least 2,500 posts, your opinion can't mean much. Your cred and knowledge go up with each post count. Before that, you're an e-moron. Oh wait, that would normally include someone like myself but there are exceptions....just a couple.
    How can I help? My opinion on Jaybo's comment?

    I also think the HL 5 Spot is a great design for rougher trail riding. Still one of the best 5.5 inch trail bikes ever on my short list. I wasn't so happy with the move to TNT due to the change in braking traction I like so much with better HL designs, but TNT sure proved a monopivot with linked shock can pedal just about as well as HL and busted the myth of "superior efficient pedaling" supposedly brought by ITC limitations to HL.

    I like the DWL Spot much more than HL for my issue of being somewhat climbing "challenged", weak and slow for as much as I ride, and I appreciate every advantage large or small to make climbing easier. Except I have always hated the sticky and dead action feel of platform shocks. For me the DWL is a large improvement for climbing rough trail without platform damping. I can imagine a strong climber could also benefit with a DWL by saving more energy for clearing even tougher climbing obstacles and for the downhill rewards.

    Where he rides Jaybo might not want or need such a gain in climbing ease which DWL brings to the 5 Spot.

  95. #95
    Paper or plastic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder

    This place reminds me of that classic story "The Emperor's clothes", and the Homers are walking around naked thinking only the intelligent can see their fine threads. Jaybo is the kid yelling "but the emperor has no clothes!"
    Anybody got a picture of DT riding around nekkid?
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  96. #96
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    Since I have the disposable income, I'm absolutely willing to rationalize and spend the extra $500 for a DW Turner (vs. the old TNT Turners or for that matter a new Titus). I have now ridden 2 top shelf DW frames and the characteristics of the suspension out-classed my beloved FSR / ML and also the VPP bikes I've had some time on. All things being equal, including the rider, the DW suspension was just noticably better. Is this THE panacea??….. Hell, no…. But it's better than my current ride and that's all I'm looking for.

    From my experience, I'm convinced that a well excecuted DW multi-link-suspension design can make significant improvements in ride quality more so than tweeking the current crop of well executed 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation suspension designs. I don't really care that DT is not the originator of the technology, but what I do care about is the recognition that perhaps there's a better way to increase the NET performance of the bike and deliver the goods; with a well executed suspension design with a kick-azz ride.

    As for my Titus bashing…. perhaps I'm a bit over the top at times, but I have a right to my opinions as an owner of one of their products. They are pushing technologies that have intangible effects on ride quality and frankly am disapointed in the new offerings just for this reason. As far as I can tell, advancement in shock technology in last few years has done far more for performance improvement in the Titus line-up than a re-design (or adding CF).

    So, using the FTM as an example, the FTM fails as an design improvement and what's worse it costs significantly more that the old ML. It's just jiggery-pokerry… smoke and mirrors fluff. In fact, the most recent Mountain Bike mag reviewed the FTM and concluded they'd rather ride the old ML!! They identified plenty of concerns with the frame and were left confused about the change. Squeaking out incremental improvements over the original ML is proving to be difficult…. Because it was/is that good!!

    Again, if you're going to make a change to a proven, top performing design, the benefits of that change must SIGNIFICANTLY out-weight the negatives of the design you're trying to replace. Is the FTM good bike??….. Yeah, sure…. But it's clearly not any better then the designs they perfected five years ago. Just saying…...

    Regards,

    EndUser
    My advice and $3 will buy you nothing more than a tunafish sandwich

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    I have now ridden 2 top shelf DW frames and the characteristics of the suspension out-classed my beloved FSR / ML and also the VPP bikes I've had some time on. All things being equal, including the rider, the DW suspension was just noticably better.
    Is DW link just another name for the VPP design, or is there a real difference? I know different manufacturers can tweek the link and pivot geometry etc. Other than that, are they the same?

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo
    For some reason I'm just not all that interested or excited about getting a DW Link Turner. I think they probably ride fantastic and all that jazz but I'm still very satisfied with my HL Turner. I know, I'm a low expectation SOB but I'm happy as heck and sticking with my bike. Sorry Dave.

    Jaybo
    I'm not really sure if I understand this post. Maybe you could explain what you mean in a bit more detail?

    However, for those of you who are interested in a DW Turner I personally find the DW Spot to be an improvement over both the previous HL and TNT versions. That does not mean that the older HL/TNT bikes aren't still great bikes. I liked them both too. They were well built, competitively light, and had a great overall ride. With that in mind I find the DW Spot to be all those things too, but just a bit better almost everywhere. I find it more efficient at pedaling, smoother on rough downhills, a bit more laterally stiff and a bit better when braking. In the end it added up to being the best all-around 140mm bike I’ve owned or ridden.

    Are there arguments for not buying a new DW Spot? Sure. It’s expensive, there are lighter 140mm bikes, the paint is not the most exciting, some people like fancier tubesets or even carbon. For me all the other points are more important than any of these, except for maybe price seeing as we are in a bit of financial slump.
    Can't keep track anymore - Giant, Santa Cruz, Pivot, Yeti, Norco, Salsa, Intense - if it rolls on dirt I like it

  99. #99
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    ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott@GO-RIDE.com
    I'm not really sure if I understand this post. Maybe you could explain what you mean in a bit more detail?

    However, for those of you who are interested in a DW Turner I personally find the DW Spot to be an improvement over both the previous HL and TNT versions. That does not mean that the older HL/TNT bikes aren't still great bikes. I liked them both too. They were well built, competitively light, and had a great overall ride. With that in mind I find the DW Spot to be all those things too, but just a bit better almost everywhere. I find it more efficient at pedaling, smoother on rough downhills, a bit more laterally stiff and a bit better when braking. In the end it added up to being the best all-around 140mm bike I’ve owned or ridden.

    Are there arguments for not buying a new DW Spot? Sure. It’s expensive, there are lighter 140mm bikes, the paint is not the most exciting, some people like fancier tubesets or even carbon. For me all the other points are more important than any of these, except for maybe price seeing as we are in a bit of financial slump.
    Well said

  100. #100
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    DeeZee, that user title under your name, IMO, you can, and should, change it to SUCK-UP.
    ****

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