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  1. #1
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    Good job! My first 66SL Oil change... Spanky!

    Hooookaaay kiddies I finally set aside some time to do some wrenching (having a some of my rides rained out didn't hurt). And besides bolting up my new Galfer braided hoses I also changed the oil in my 66SL

    Thanks to jncarpenter's 66SL oil change thread, I had all the info I needed.

    I've owned and serviced three other zokes and built my own frankenfork so while I'm far from being an expert, an oil change is not news to me. I did, however, find a few unexpected things.

    -It was WAY easier than any other Zoke I've done oil changes on. What a breeze!
    -After several months of riding, the oil was suprisingly clean. I mean it looked like new. My last few Zokes pumped out sludge like a NYC sewer. I don't know what they did different but KUDOS! I almost wonder why I even bothered considering the condition.

    -I found way less than 200ml in the RC2 side. More like 160 or so.

    -I discovered my compression knob has gone MIA ... must have fallen off on the trail. (this occured before the oil change) Grrrr! Anyone got an idea for a handy substitute till I order a replacement?

    -The RC2 cart makes a sqeaking squealing noise as the shaft slides up and down (with the fork open) Its sounds like metal scraping on metal. No biggie just seems odd. It works fine though, and I don't think it does it when primed full of oil.

    Damper Pair:



    -My RC2 cart had a ugly mottled finish one side of the tube. No biggie...just curious looking.


    -Contrary to the bushing discussions we've had recently, from what I can tell the lower bushing appears to me as I first suggested: A sleeve at least 6" long. It appears to extend to the bottom of sliders. The upper bushing seems to be around 3/4 to 1". I didn't measure either.

    Upper Bushing:


    Lower Bushing:



    I put slick honey on the upper bushings, seals and wipers. Also on the sliders and then applied some fork oil on top of that. Reassembled the fork, filled it and also dribbled some oil into the PAR and Negative chambers via the air valve. (quantity: about one and a half valve full)

    I also took the liberty to install a nice rubber O-ring on the right side stanchion. So much nicer than a pair of micro zip ties.

    I used 210ml of 10W (what I had on hand) in the RC2 side and 40ml in the Dopio side. Even with the PAR empty I can't seem to get past 3/4 travel on the trail so I'll first try a little less pressure in the positive air springs but I think I'll have to take the extra 10ml out.

    Upon reassembly, I found the fork to be a fair bit smoother, but only slightly less sticky. Stiction occurs only at the top the various travel setting, and only if the fork has sat motionless for a substantial ammount of time. If I bounced on it once it showed no real stiction until I let it sit for another long period. Even then, the stiction is small potatos and only noticable from a workbench point of view. On the trail it has no significace whatsoever, and isn't even present after the first bounce. Honestly, it never really had more stiction than any of my air capped coil Zokes. As best as I can remenber, not even more than my dual coil/no air preload '03 Z1.

    Riding the new fork was pure BUTTAH! Smoooth smooth smooth! Maybe the new oil helped after all .

    I truly dig this fork. I love the ease to get the right spring rate and the natural coil feel. I really love how the compression adjustment eliminates brake dive in the hard coners but still remains plenty supple. And of course, it's got the typical Zoke "Bring it on!" feeling in spades! This beyotch knows no fear.

    Cheers!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 09-05-2006 at 10:43 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  2. #2
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    hey buddy, where is the credit for my very helpful oil change directions?
    Nothing to see here.

  3. #3
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    Damm Y'know I was debating that! Spit! Could you post that great uh... visual aid... again?

    Hey, anyone know what that O-ring on the RC2 shaft is for? The rod also has a port on it near the o-ring but the ring can slide above and below the port pretty freely. I doubt they're related.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  4. #4
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    'Zilla' I SWEAR to you that the lower bushing is only as long as the upper bushing. I'll bet you ten bucks!
    BTW, all of that "initial stiction" I had prior to my honing my bushings is gone, even after the bike has sat for days.
    ****

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    'Zilla' I SWEAR to you that the lower bushing is only as long as the upper bushing. I'll bet you ten bucks!
    BTW, all of that "initial stiction" I had prior to my honing my bushings is gone, even after the bike has sat for days.
    Since coming back from Zocchi mine has not had the initial stiction even after sitting awhile. I think mine might have received the "works" package from the factory
    Nothing to see here.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    Since coming back from Zocchi mine has not had the initial stiction even after sitting awhile. I think mine might have received the "works" package from the factory
    I've got your "works package" factory tool right here:
    ****

  7. #7
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    The honing sounds tricky/risky considering I wouldn't know the stiction was even there after the first bounce. Didn't you fellas say the stiction seemed to return later? Maybe I'll consider doing it next oil change. You wanna loan me you hone? ... I mean, provided you haven't use it for entertainment purposes.

    I won't bet you on the bushing thing. Seems like a full length bushing would be overkill so it's possible the lower is the same size as the upper. I just didn't see it.

    So what's the big sleeve for anyway?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  8. #8
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    SSINGA wanted to borrow it for entertainment purposes, but I told him no. Yea, I'd send it to you along with detailed instructions.
    The length of the bushing: next time you have your fork apart, look through the bottom hole in the lowers, looking up. Also, from the top, take a wheel spoke, insert it into the lowers bent -end first, drag it along the bushing untill it plunks over the far end of the bushing. One inch long.
    Why a big sleeve then? Lubrication purposes. A five inch long bushing would have waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much stiction.
    ****

  9. #9
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    For a replacement knob, if the shaft is the hexagonal type, an option would be to cut the shank off a corresponding hex bolt, then carefully drill the center through. This obviously works better with deeper bolts. Then bolt it all together. Make sure you use loctite on the interface, as well as the holding bolt.

  10. #10
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    not only is my comp knob gone but whatever it attaches to is gone also .
    now if marz guys would answer the phone...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by airwreck
    not only is my comp knob gone but whatever it attaches to is gone also .
    now if marz guys would answer the phone...
    Airwreck, it sounds like you and the 66SL weren't meant to get along. I read your thread; I would have chimed in if I had any advice to offer, but your fork has me stumped.
    ****

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by airwreck
    not only is my comp knob gone but whatever it attaches to is gone also .
    now if marz guys would answer the phone...
    Is Brain Peterson not answering the phone again?

    The leading and following posts are even more telling.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=Jerk_Chicken]Is Brain Peterson not answering the phone again?
    QUOTE]

    Did he ever?
    ****

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=Renegade]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Is Brain Peterson not answering the phone again?
    QUOTE]

    Did he ever?
    Yeah, once and he lied about the incompatibility between the AM uppers and the Z1 lowers. Note: he probably didn't lie as much as he pretended to know the product he sells and supports. He then proceeded to yell at me about the Turner forum "...in general [not] knowing what they're talking about".

  15. #15
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    Airwreck, that sucks man. Are you sure you haven't cought the curse of Tscheezy?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    -I discovered my compression knob has gone MIA ... must have fallen off on the trail. (this occured before the oil change) Grrrr! Anyone got an idea for a handy substitute till I order a replacement?
    There was PSA posted about this knob coming off by someone a long time ago. Everyone with a 66 better go check theirs now.

    Hold on to your hat Zilla when you ask how much for the replacement knob (maybe Renny can CNC a replacement for you)
    Nothing to see here.

  17. #17
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    Out of the box, all Zoke owners should remove and loctite the bolts for all the adjusters.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    There was PSA posted about this knob coming off by someone a long time ago. Everyone with a 66 better go check theirs now.

    Hold on to your hat Zilla when you ask how much for the replacement knob (maybe Renny can CNC a replacement for you)
    ....yeah, I had posted that awhile back. FYI, the adjusters are actually pretty cheap. I think they run around $7 ea (includes mounting bolt/washer).

    FWIW....I appreciate Brian P's input on these boards. I DON'T equate his info to that of a tech person's & think he is typically reasonably helpful.


  19. #19
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    that was a nice 30 minute call to marz...
    moving this discussion back to my thread ...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    There was PSA posted about this knob coming off by someone a long time ago. Everyone with a 66 better go check theirs now.

    Hold on to your hat Zilla when you ask how much for the replacement knob (maybe Renny can CNC a replacement for you)
    JNC lost his compression knob first day of riding I believe. first thing I did when i recieved my fork was to tighten up that fastener.

    I didn't tell you guys yet, but I machined myself a plug to replace that stupid plastic push in plug that goes in the PAR chamber. It threads into it, with a knurled knob on the end. titanium. BLING!
    ****

  21. #21
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    Renny, that knob sounds pretty kewl. Just drop one in the box w/the hone mmmkay?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  22. #22
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    I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the knob. Now everyone is gonna want one.
    ****

  23. #23
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    Ohh, can you make one in gold?
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Ohh, can you make one in gold?
    Could make it in brass, which would look like gold, but it will be heavy.
    ****

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Ohh, can you make one in gold?
    I want mine in Orange please.
    Nothing to see here.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSINGA
    I want mine in Orange please.
    Orange? I'm gonna hafta make yours out of a carrot!
    ****

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the knob. Now everyone is gonna want one.

    Precisely why I didn't ask via PM.
    How about with a flashy LED light thingy?
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 09-05-2006 at 01:30 PM.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the knob. Now everyone is gonna want one.
    ...you know the drill...black ano for me please


  29. #29
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    I'm gonna anodize them ALL purple, and you ALL with love it!
    ****

  30. #30
    No, that's not phonetic
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    My experience:

    I just changed the oil in my 66SL. While not exactly difficult, it didn't seem any easier than any other Zoke and considering the low miles so far, my oil looked like the typical dark crap that comes out of a Marzocchi. I went ahead and pulled the lowers all the way off to lube the wipers and oil seals.

    Getting the nut off the bottom of the RC2 (right) leg was a bit difficult. After loosening the bottom nut one or two turns, the damper rod started to spin. Loosening the top cap and gripping the damer rod's upper portion did not help as this spins independently of the lower portion. I had to carefully grip the RC2 adjuster rod sticking out the bottom of the damper rod with a pair of needle nose pliers and turn the foot nut with a 12mm open end wrench. A delicate operation, relatively speaking. Putting it back together required the reverse process of holding the RC2 inner rod steady and advancing the nut onto the outer threaded portion. Once the nut comes a little snug and pulls the inner cart down against the bottom of the fork leg, you can switch back to the 12mm socket and snug it down for real.

    Here is what I do to REALLY lube the upper oil seals:

    Pack about half the space between the upper wiper and the inner oil seal with Slick Honey. Thread the top caps into the fork uppers. Flip the uppers upside down and insert them into overturned sliders about 1/2", just so the outer wiper seal seats on the end of the stanchions. Now pour about 10cc of oil in through the foot nut holes. This oil runs down inside the fork past the bushings and oil seal and fills the spaces left next to the Slick Honey. Insert the uppers farther into the sliders and continue to add oil as you normally would. The oil trapped in the space between the oil seals and upper wipers mixes with the Slick Honey and makes a nice gooey slurry that lubes the upper tubes very well. This will likely reduce a lot of that dry initial stiction these forks exhibit.

    BTW, only about 165-170cc of oil came out of my RC2 (right leg). I was not getting full travel so I put about 160cc back in. We'll see where that leads. Maybe I'll have to add some PAR air (zero psi now).
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    My experience:

    I just changed the oil in my 66SL. While not exactly difficult, it didn't seem any easier than any other Zoke and considering the low miles so far, my oil looked like the typical dark crap that comes out of a Marzocchi. I went ahead and pulled the lowers all the way off to lube the wipers and oil seals.

    Getting the nut off the bottom of the RC2 (right) leg was a bit difficult. After loosening the bottom nut one or two turns, the damper rod started to spin. Loosening the top cap and gripping the damer rod's upper portion did not help as this spins independently of the lower portion. I had to carefully grip the RC2 adjuster rod sticking out the bottom of the damper rod with a pair of needle nose pliers and turn the foot nut with a 12mm open end wrench. A delicate operation, relatively speaking. Putting it back together required the reverse process of holding the RC2 inner rod steady and advancing the nut onto the outer threaded portion. Once the nut comes a little snug and pulls the inner cart down against the bottom of the fork leg, you can switch back to the 12mm socket and snug it down for real.

    Here is what I do to REALLY lube the upper oil seals:

    Pack about half the space between the upper wiper and the inner oil seal with Slick Honey. Thread the top caps into the fork uppers. Flip the uppers upside down and insert them into overturned sliders about 1/2", just so the outer wiper seal seats on the end of the stanchions. Now pour about 10cc of oil in through the foot nut holes. This oil runs down inside the fork past the bushings and oil seal and fills the spaces left next to the Slick Honey. Insert the uppers farther into the sliders and continue to add oil as you normally would. The oil trapped in the space between the oil seals and upper wipers mixes with the Slick Honey and makes a nice gooey slurry that lubes the upper tubes very well. This will likely reduce a lot of that dry initial stiction these forks exhibit.

    BTW, only about 165-170cc of oil came out of my RC2 (right leg). I was not getting full travel so I put about 160cc back in. We'll see where that leads. Maybe I'll have to add some PAR air (zero psi now).
    ...tscheez, did you inspect the damper rod threads & nut while disassembled? I have had a couple forks over the years that have done similarly (a Z1 I had to send into zocchi becuz the nut just would NOT come off). Another trick to remove install is to extend the damping rod fully (to make a lever) and "pinch" the threaded area by pressing the rod to one side or the other of the stanchion. IIRC, aa had replaced his seals with the enduros....are they still installed or did he reinstall the zocchi's before sale?

    You can also use a syringe to carefully drip in some oil through the wiper seal after assembly but I have never noticed it improving stiction. The thing that removed stiction altogether for me was really polishing/ wet sanding (fine fine fine) the upper bushes & stanchions.

    K, now flog it in UT & report back

    PS. you should easily achieve full travel with only 160ml (right leg)......??? PAR is empty I assume? What volume is in the dopio leg? Should be around 40ml...


  32. #32
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Threads and nut on the rod are fine. There is an o-ring inside the nut (nut just where the nut meets the lowers) that grips the damper rod just enough to make everything spin together. NBD, you just have to hold the rod somehow. I did try pulling the rod out tight, pushing it to one side, and grabbing it here and there from above, but nothing seemed to resist the spinning. Oh well.

    Yeah, the Zoke seals are in there (they have the fine spring around the wiper seal). They did not look like Enduros to me. The PAR is empty and always has been. I have had to go under Zoke's recommended oil volumes to get full travel before, and their published levels have historically been off so randomly that I usually just measure what comes out and go from there. I was surprised at how little oil came out (~165 instead of 200 cc), and I don't think there was more than a few cc's left in the RC2/rebound cart (it drains veeeery slowly). Yep, 40 in the left.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  33. #33
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    Tscheezy, I'm kinda suprised that your oil was the typical dark crap found in most Marz. forks. My oil changes, and others who have reported theirs, has resulted in a very clean used oil coming out of the 66SL.
    I think it's because you're cursed.
    ****

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    Tscheezy, I'm kinda suprised that your oil was the typical dark crap found in most Marz. forks. My oil changes, and others who have reported theirs, has resulted in a very clean used oil coming out of the 66SL.
    I think it's because you're cursed.
    I just did an oil change on my 66 light this morning. This is the 3rd one I've done since I bought it. The first two times, the oil in the positive air chamber was clean as new, but the ETA leg was very dirty. I"m assuming that this is because of the steel spring located in the ETA leg. Anywho, this morning's oil change was a bit different. Both legs' oil was quite dirty, but to be fair, this has been the longest duration without an oil change. I think its been 6 months since I've done it.

    Question: I'm getting ready to help Slim do an oil change on his 66 SL. Can I do this without removing the rods? Can't I just drain the oil, and fill it with clean oil up to certain levels, or do I have to remove the rods, and measure the oil based on quantitiy? On my 66 light, I just drain the oil, and fill it back up to 60mm below the top caps.

  35. #35
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    El C, you could do the oil change without removing the cartridges, but you must be sure to pump the damping cartridge [right leg] to get all the oil out of it. You can measure the amount of oil removed from each leg, and simply put that much oil back in.
    ****

  36. #36
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    Maybe it's the curse of Tscheezy.
    I was sort of suprised how easy it was to get into the fork. I liked the fact the footnuts weren't deeply recessed like on the other castings. I think you can use an unmodified 12mm socket whereas on the older models you needed to grind the socket down to fit in the casting seat.

    Anyway, Ts, when I opened my fork I followed JNC's instructions by undoing the top caps first and slightly compressing the fork to expose the rods. Then I hit the footnuts. IIRC, you prefer to pull the FN's first and drain top down. My rods did spin slightly but I didnt' have any problem with the FN's releasing. Hopefully that luck will continue.

    As for the quality of the used oil... well, you put more on miles in a week than I do in a month...and the harsh Alaskan conditions may contribute too.

    I was looking at my Pike Dual Air and I can see how it has virtually no stiction compared to the Zoke...but all my Zokes had this stiction, even the one that had no air chamber. It's really minimal and only first bounce, shop floor noticable.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  37. #37
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    FWIW, the oil change and seal lube reduced stiction overall considerably. I do not believe this was mostly a function of just "fresh" oil, but rather where that oil ended up. The space between the inner oil seal and the upper wiper is generally pretty dry. There may be some grease in there, but it is quickly pushed aside and you end up with no recurring lubrication in this space. The inner oil seal wipes the oil off the stanchion, and the upper wiper is left with a relatively dry surface to slide over. By putting copious Slick Honey in there AND fork oil, the slurry constantly re-wets the stanchion and keeps stuff running smoothly. My fork had also exhibited that initial really harsh stickiness for the first 5-10 compressions, and then loosened up somewhat, but now is smooth from the first stroke. I figured the Zoke butter would come with break in, and it may well have, but I just knocked about 40 riding hours off the apparent break in time. As soon as that stickiness returns, I figure it is time to repack the space with lube.

    The lower oil level resulted in me getting within about 3/4" of full travel on a ride that should not have netted me very much travel, so I will now play with PAR to see if that is worth anything. Oil levels are a pain to manipulate compared to the PAR chamber, so it will be a worthwhile experiment to see if that does anything for me.

    Overall it is a very cool fork, and does not hose the Pack's handling the way I feared it might (and I have it racked out to 170mm). It is a fork tuner's fork though, like many Zokes. I'm not sure I would recommend it to a boinger newby.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    It is a fork tuner's fork though, like many Zokes. I'm not sure I would recommend it to a boinger newby.
    Oh, great, so now you tell me.

    Tell SSinGA I'll be boinging down his way so he can lube mine up, he's the one who convinced me to get a 66 in the first place.

    Patrick

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    My experience:

    I just changed the oil in my 66SL. While not exactly difficult, it didn't seem any easier than any other Zoke and considering the low miles so far, my oil looked like the typical dark crap that comes out of a Marzocchi. I went ahead and pulled the lowers all the way off to lube the wipers and oil seals.

    Getting the nut off the bottom of the RC2 (right) leg was a bit difficult. After loosening the bottom nut one or two turns, the damper rod started to spin. Loosening the top cap and gripping the damer rod's upper portion did not help as this spins independently of the lower portion. I had to carefully grip the RC2 adjuster rod sticking out the bottom of the damper rod with a pair of needle nose pliers and turn the foot nut with a 12mm open end wrench. A delicate operation, relatively speaking. Putting it back together required the reverse process of holding the RC2 inner rod steady and advancing the nut onto the outer threaded portion. Once the nut comes a little snug and pulls the inner cart down against the bottom of the fork leg, you can switch back to the 12mm socket and snug it down for real.

    Here is what I do to REALLY lube the upper oil seals:

    Pack about half the space between the upper wiper and the inner oil seal with Slick Honey. Thread the top caps into the fork uppers. Flip the uppers upside down and insert them into overturned sliders about 1/2", just so the outer wiper seal seats on the end of the stanchions. Now pour about 10cc of oil in through the foot nut holes. This oil runs down inside the fork past the bushings and oil seal and fills the spaces left next to the Slick Honey. Insert the uppers farther into the sliders and continue to add oil as you normally would. The oil trapped in the space between the oil seals and upper wipers mixes with the Slick Honey and makes a nice gooey slurry that lubes the upper tubes very well. This will likely reduce a lot of that dry initial stiction these forks exhibit.

    BTW, only about 165-170cc of oil came out of my RC2 (right leg). I was not getting full travel so I put about 160cc back in. We'll see where that leads. Maybe I'll have to add some PAR air (zero psi now).

    Wow, changing the oil was far easier for me. Unbolt the top caps, turn fork upside down, cycle fork to get oil out, refill oil, and put top caps back on.

    Of course, since the fork gets plenty of oil lube impregnating the legs, there isn't much point to putting grease in/on the fork.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  40. #40
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    I really don't think the wiper seal wiping off the oil contributes to friction more than its actual design. Oil seals in nearly every piece of machinery I've seen contributes to large amounts of friction. Standard oil control rings in engines account for 30-40% of total friction, for one example. One test you can use for this is to completely degrease the stantions to the point where they have that "dry" feel, where your finger drags across with a lot of friction.

    Next step is to compress the fork one or several times. You will see the amount of stanchion that has gone into the bathed areas (oil climbs as well) is still dry, but the friction as your finger runs across is significantly reduced. The alumimium is still a bit porous and a small amount of oil penetrates and serves as nearly a "dry lube" or an impregnation that needs to be renewed and is by compressing the fork into the bath.

  41. #41
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    I do agree that oil impregnates the stanchions and will always provide some lubrication, but this is one less seal that is squeegying downward that the lube has to make it past in order to lube the upper wiper seal. Essentially, there is a lot more lubricant for the upper wiper this way. It is noticeable in the "first push down on the bars" test and in the overall suppleness of the fork on the trail too. Whereas the fork would seem to "set up" during smooth sections of climbing and then need a good bounce or two to get woken up, not there is much less difference between having been cycled and having sat still.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  42. #42
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    Oh, I don't dispute lubing the seals one bit, but it does shed fast and what is left behind is the grease that has impregnated the seal and what's on the stanchions. Compress the fork a few times after sitting and it's butter.

  43. #43
    No, that's not phonetic
    Reputation: tscheezy's Avatar
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    Yep. Another thing I notice now that was not there before is oil rings on the fork legs and goopey grease/oil residue on the wipers. Yummmy slippery goodness! The stanchions were always "bone dry" to the touch before.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  44. #44
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    ....FWIW, I never experience ANY stiction what-so-ever while on the trail. If I let the bike sit a few days, it will have ONE initial bout, and then it is butter. IIRC, AA was having some stiction issues with that fork after he installed the enduro seals & reinstalled the bushes (yes, I know it now has zocchi seals).


  45. #45
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    My RC2X still has that first push down stickiness as well, after 11 good rides. No oil change yet. Also have not got into the last 1.25" of travel at all yet. Welcome to the 66 club TS!

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