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  1. #1
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    Let's talk Hangers!

    I have taken a few hits on the HL (to the d'er) that would have positively smoked an RFX hanger with absolutely no ill side-affects to shifting or the integrity of the frame or components.

    DT, can you design a more durable/robust hanger with 150mm spacing vs 135/142 mm spacing. If so, I vote for 150mm spacing. I hate purchasing these hangers at $25 a pop
    Last edited by Mtn. Biker123; 01-20-2010 at 06:03 PM.

  2. #2
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    You ride like a stud, however you are a total a**hole. Honestly stop smashing into sh*t with your deruiller* into stuff. That will protect your rig. Then shut your mouth via the net. I hope you can read this. I rarely have negative things to say on here. You my friend need to (mafia style) disappear. Please do. I don't get or understand what your after, go away.
    Thanks MTBR for letting me have a voice in this matter.
    Scottay
    What does Marsellus Wallace look like, A BIT*H?

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    $500,000 Pyramid..

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottay5150
    I rarely have negative things to say on here. You my friend need to (mafia style) disappear.
    I'll take that in gold bars, please!

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    Why the need for a more durable/robust hanger? Its entire purpose is to be weaker than the dropout so it breaks away during a derailleur strike. To make it more durable would only increase the potential for damage to the dropout. I can understand your frustration at having to spend $25 a pop to replace a broken hanger, but its a lot easier pill to swallow than $500 for a new rear end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polandspring88
    Why the need for a more durable/robust hanger? Its entire purpose is to be weaker than the dropout so it breaks away during a derailleur strike. To make it more durable would only increase the potential for damage to the dropout. I can understand your frustration at having to spend $25 a pop to replace a broken hanger, but its a lot easier pill to swallow than $500 for a new rear end.
    I'm not saying make it out of stainless steel

    I'll repeat it'

    I have taken quite a few hits on the HL to the d'er with no ill effects (meaning I did not bend the d'er hanger nor did my d'er fail). Nor was there any structural damage to the frame. I would almost rather toast a d'er than have to fork out $$$ on a hanger. SRAM is awesome about warranties these days.

    I'm positive than many of those strikes would have killed one of the hangers from my 2006 RFX. That being said, I was wondering if a more robust hanger requires more clearance. If so, then I vote that Dave should consider going 150 on the RFX.

  6. #6
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    here you go

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I'm not saying make it out of stainless steel

    I'll repeat it'

    I have taken quite a few hits on the HL to the d'er with no ill effects (meaning I did not bend the d'er hanger nor did my d'er fail). Nor was there any structural damage to the frame. I would almost rather toast a d'er than have to fork out $$$ on a hanger. SRAM is awesome about warranties these days.

    I'm positive than many of those strikes would have killed one of the hangers from my 2006 RFX. That being said, I was wondering if a more robust hanger requires more clearance. If so, then I vote that Dave should consider going 150 on the RFX.
    now can we close this thread?
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  7. #7
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    The lack of a hanger on my Highline has worked flawlessly since day one. Such a damn shame that Shimano stopped making axle mounted Saint derailleurs.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms
    The lack of a hanger on my Highline has worked flawlessly since day one. Such a damn shame that Shimano stopped making axle mounted Saint derailleurs.
    Yes!, just finished replacing the der & hanger on the Sultan for the 2nd time, I'd run one again if I could find a H normal version.

    I think I fried 4 or 5 der/hangers on the RFX till I switched, for sure the weak link on todays MB's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Yes!, just finished replacing the der & hanger on the Sultan for the 2nd time, I'd run one again if I could find a H normal version.

    I think I fried 4 or 5 der/hangers on the RFX till I switched, for sure the weak link on todays MB's.
    Nice.

    I recall those D'ers.

    However, no one has answered the question. Does spacing play a role in the how "durable" a d'er hanger can be? What is the best engineered replaceable hanger among the 5-6" travel bikes that are available these days. Who's got the best setup...in your guys opinions?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I'm not saying make it out of stainless steel

    I'll repeat it'

    I have taken quite a few hits on the HL to the d'er with no ill effects (meaning I did not bend the d'er hanger nor did my d'er fail). Nor was there any structural damage to the frame. I would almost rather toast a d'er than have to fork out $$$ on a hanger. SRAM is awesome about warranties these days.

    I'm positive than many of those strikes would have killed one of the hangers from my 2006 RFX. That being said, I was wondering if a more robust hanger requires more clearance. If so, then I vote that Dave should consider going 150 on the RFX.
    You need to try reading sometime. It helps you not look like an idiot when replying to posts. Your RFX is not a highline. The above poster mentioned that your RFX hanger was designed with the strength of the rear triangle in mind. He tried to articulate to you that a stronger hanger could damage the rear end. To put it as clear as day... the highline hanger is stronger because the highline is a heavier and more durable bike... you cannot expect the same from your RFX.

    Your highland can stand more abuse, and there fore the hanger can impart a bit more force on the dropouts which might otherwise damage a trail-purpose frame.

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    Do you even bother to think through what you're asking before you ask it? To put it succinctly, correlation is not causation.

    The reason 150mm rear end spacing exists is to allow for stronger (dishless) wheels. If you're regularly damaging derailleur hangers, you may want to think about not crashing into $hit so much.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough

    If you're regularly damaging derailleur hangers, you may want to think about not crashing into $hit so much.
    I think it's more about the type of terrain you ride or what type of riding you do, I very rarely damaged the der/hanger from a crash, more like hitting rocks in tight chunky cond's. Never damaged a der/hanger on a shuttle ride or resort riding, always on a few of our local chunkfest trail rides.

    I just fried a der/hanger on the Sultan as I was literally JRA, didn't hit anything, no shifting but somehow the chain got behind the cass and BAM!, the rear end exploded including my chainstay.

  13. #13
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    I have to agree with ProCore here, I actually tried to get DT to make a Highline type hanger for the RFX when I had one, makes sense IMO, even on trail bikes like the Sultan or Spot.

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    Please elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    Do you even bother to think through what you're asking before you ask it? To put it succinctly, correlation is not causation.

    The reason 150mm rear end spacing exists is to allow for stronger (dishless) wheels. If you're regularly damaging derailleur hangers, you may want to think about not crashing into $hit so much.
    Correlation is not causation? IMO, in this case it is.

    On the HL, I really like the way the hanger is integrated into the TA bolt. This helps in my opinion to give the d'er more rigidity by allowing for more material. Yet it looks like it would still "break-away" under extreme impacts and other potential forces (if lighter material was utilized). I believe spacing does indeed have a lot to do with the amount of material that can be utilized, sensibly, within the tolerances of the existing TA's that are available and the type drop outs that are required for the Syntace (proprietary). You can go "custom" with factory TA's on 135/150. So, I would suggest 150 spacing based on my experiences with the HL.

    Let me remind you also that I ride fairly agro. Hitting sh!t with that big a$$ bulky drivetrain is a given. What is the best system that both provides protection for the frame, but is not so inferior that "love taps" won't cause catastrophic failure?

  15. #15
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    hanging out

    wider spaced rears will hit more rocks than 135 type, so the hanger has to be tougher for sure, and unless it is old school Saint derailers will suffer more with the wider rears. Too bad Shimano bailed on the Saint axle ending derailer, seemed like a good thing to me and the Highline and DHR capitalized well on the engagement. But few on DHs would run them as they are heavy and the rest of the OE world did not buy into them. To cool too soon I guess, in a few years when even XC bikes have thru axles (12x142) then the original Saint thing will not seem so far out.

    And as so well put by NWFreeride the RFX is no, never was and never will replace the Highline. IF a Highline hanger ever becomes un-useable I am sorry. My intent was to make that the toughest most rock mashing mo-fo I ever designed, and it is attached to an axle lug that can take a hella beating.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Correlation is not causation? IMO, in this case it is.

    On the HL, I really like the way the hanger is integrated into the TA bolt. This helps in my opinion to give the d'er more rigidity by allowing for more material. Yet it looks like it would still "break-away" under extreme impacts and other potential forces (if lighter material was utilized). I believe spacing does indeed have a lot to do with the amount of material that can be utilized, sensibly, within the tolerances of the existing TA's that are available and the type drop outs that are required for the Syntace (proprietary). You can go "custom" with factory TA's on 135/150. So, I would suggest 150 spacing based on my experiences with the HL.

    Let me remind you also that I ride fairly agro. Hitting sh!t with that big a$$ bulky drivetrain is a given. What is the best system that both provides protection for the frame, but is not so inferior that "love taps" won't cause catastrophic failure?
    So do you mean that by "riding aggro" that you don't know how to pick a line that doesn't involve whacking the rear of your bike into things?

    Dropout/hanger design still has nothing to do with the spacing between the dropouts for the wheel. If a TA design with a longer axle to support a beefier hanger interface is necessary, I'm not sure why a 135mm spaced rear end would make a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    So do you mean that by "riding aggro" that you don't know how to pick a line that doesn't involve whacking the rear of your bike into things?
    It's not that I don't know how, it's that I take more risk.

    Thanks Dave for the information.

    In your opinion what design on the market does the best job of protecting the frame, while maintaining the most integrity in terms of the amount of force that is required for it to fail? Can you design a more durable hanger for the DW RFX with the Syntace system vs an in-house TA setup?

  18. #18
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    Pfffft, another disappointing thread. You guys can't even focus on talking hangers.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Let's talk Hangers!-keeley-4.jpg  


  19. #19
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    There's always THIS option if you have threaded axles...tho you risk trashing the derailler and/ or axle when something gives.
    You also have the added benefit of paying Specialized for the patent license


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    There's always THIS option if you have threaded axles...tho you risk trashing the derailler and/ or axle when something gives.
    You also have the added benefit of paying Specialized for the patent license
    I liked everything except the last part...JK

    I don't mind paying Spez for products that I assume they have designed themselves. I say assume because I'm sure they do steal ideas and beat people to the patent office, but I also know they have their own designers/engineers in-house.

    Looks like a good product.

  21. #21
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    I wonder if their der hangers are stonger?

    http://northshorebillet.com/index.ph...40d49579c0030c

    I've been pretty lucky with the stock hangers. I haven't trashed more than I felt I should have. They seem to be as strong as any one elses I have come across (XC/trail use).

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheatgerm
    I wonder if their der hangers are stonger?

    http://northshorebillet.com/index.ph...40d49579c0030c

    I've been pretty lucky with the stock hangers. I haven't trashed more than I felt I should have. They seem to be as strong as any one elses I have come across (XC/trail use).
    IDK...some of the aftermarket hangers I've tried were really bad.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I have taken a few hits on the HL (to the d'er) that would have positively smoked an RFX hanger with absolutely no ill side-affects to shifting or the integrity of the frame or components.

    DT, can you design a more durable/robust hanger with 150mm spacing vs 135/142 mm spacing. If so, I vote for 150mm spacing. I hate purchasing these hangers at $25 a pop

    .
    In closing I have been present and have seen more than a few threads where inferior hangers have been the cause of catastrophic failure of spokes, complete rear wheel assemblies, and damage to dropouts. In one instance Turnerbikes refused to warranty a damaged drop out due to the d'er being subsequently sucked into the the rear wheel when it failed. Yet within a week of this individual posting and being refused a warranty per Gregg, DT publicly authorized a replacement Chain stay (for the second time in a month) for a mod who sustained similar damage. Why?

    FWIW...in all the years I've been biking I've never seen a frame damaged from the lack of "forgiveness" of the d'er hanger...and I've owned many more models that have a beefier setup. I've seen the d'ers fail once in a blue moon, but never anything that compromised the frame.

  24. #24
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    My take on hangers isn't so much to protect the frame as to protect you from replacing rear derailleurs.

    Perhaps DT should make a cast iron hanger. Then when everyone pisses and moans about replacing rear der's (because the hanger can't bend) you can start a conspiracy thread on DT (and DW, why not) being in bed with Shimano and SRAM to boost rear derailluer profits.

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    Tripple A

    Quote Originally Posted by wheatgerm
    My take on hangers isn't so much to protect the frame as to protect you from replacing rear derailleurs.

    Perhaps DT should make a cast iron hanger. Then when everyone pisses and moans about replacing rear der's (because the hanger can't bend) you can start a conspiracy thread on DT (and DW, why not) being in bed with Shimano and SRAM to boost rear derailluer profits.
    I don't put anything past anyone anymore

    I would rather replace a d'er once a year--I usually have to anyway--than shell out for a $100 in hangers and potential rear wheel/chainstay replacements( on top of the purchase of a new D'er )..never mind the the miles trecking out from a mangled rear wheel.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheatgerm
    My take on hangers isn't so much to protect the frame as to protect you from replacing rear derailleurs.

    Perhaps DT should make a cast iron hanger. Then when everyone pisses and moans about replacing rear der's (because the hanger can't bend) you can start a conspiracy thread on DT (and DW, why not) being in bed with Shimano and SRAM to boost rear derailluer profits.
    Except you forgot the part about leveraging SRAM's generous warranty replacement policies when you damage a rear derailleur because you're Procore and take risks and don't want to have to pay when you mess up.

    So you'd really be sticking it to The Man if you made the hanger indestructible.

  27. #27
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    Damn, I forgot about that. I truly should have known!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I don't put anything past anyone anymore

    I would rather replace a d'er once a year--I usually have to anyway--than shell out for a $100 in hangers and potential rear wheel/chainstay replacements( on top of the purchase of a new D'er )..never mind the the miles trecking out from a mangled rear wheel.
    Dude, I didn't take a college Psych 101 class, but I can see that your paranoiac tendencies are showing again.

    Once again, do you ever really think about what would happen if you got what you really want? What happens if the hanger doesn't give and instead the derailleur is mangled, taking out the wheel or damaging the dropout/chainstay? You want an idiot-proof system, but there will always be a bigger idiot. And what if someone did come up with a novel, non-obvious solution and patented it? How much are you willing to pay to have this problem solved for you?

    This discussion has come up before when the 6000 series Al (easily bent) vs. 7000 series Al (stronger, but then the derailleurs starting giving way first). Unfortunately, the outcome was lost in the mists of my memories of long-ago threads. Though I'm sure with all the spare time you seem to have, you could carefully construct a search to find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    Except you forgot the part about leveraging SRAM's generous warranty replacement policies when you damage a rear derailleur because you're Procore and take risks and don't want to have to pay when you mess up.

    So you'd really be sticking it to The Man if you made the hanger indestructible.
    Actually I have had one warranty and one purchase in the last two years. The warranty replacement was due to the swing arm from the d'er getting locked up somehow during a ride. I sent it to Sram and they called to ask what happened. I explained that it was likely due to an impact and they graciously replaced the item no more questions asked (upgraded even). BTW...that d'er looked like hell...I think he was actually impressed

    On the contrary, I probably spent over $200 in the last two years replacing hangers on the RFX. I'm not the only one either. There is usually a collection that goes out among the four of us who ride Turners about 2-3 times a year..or as needed.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    Dude, I didn't take a college Psych 101 class, but I can see that your paranoiac tendencies are showing again.

    Once again, do you ever really think about what would happen if you got what you really want? What happens if the hanger doesn't give and instead the derailleur is mangled, taking out the wheel or damaging the dropout/chainstay? You want an idiot-proof system, but there will always be a bigger idiot. And what if someone did come up with a novel, non-obvious solution and patented it? How much are you willing to pay to have this problem solved for you?

    This discussion has come up before when the 6000 series Al (easily bent) vs. 7000 series Al (stronger, but then the derailleurs starting giving way first). Unfortunately, the outcome was lost in the mists of my memories of long-ago threads. Though I'm sure with all the spare time you seem to have, you could carefully construct a search to find out.
    Dude I merely started this thread to ask if there was anyway that DT could integrate the same type of durability to the hangers on the new RFX as what is found on the HL. I happen to think it is a money saver...WTF? There is no underlying motive there.

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    look

    at the pics of the proto RFX from Vegas.

    In the near future with the 142 x12 being accepted by every major parts company the 'hanger' as we know it for all bikes will have some major changes, some better than others I am sure. It used to be that I was concerned about derailer life and that a hanger is a couple times cheaper to replace than a derailer, and of course no threads in the frame as well. But over the years I have seen a illogical # of riders not 'get it' so the hangers have gotten thicker, and of stronger alloy until now, on the brink of a bold new era of 142 the hangers will be made as burly as possible derailers be dammed. Now the whining can be in the Shimano and SRAM forums about what POS their products are 'cause they can't take a rubenesque rider shaving rocks with the rear mech.

    DT

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    at the pics of the proto RFX from Vegas.

    In the near future with the 142 x12 being accepted by every major parts company the 'hanger' as we know it for all bikes will have some major changes, some better than others I am sure. It used to be that I was concerned about derailer life and that a hanger is a couple times cheaper to replace than a derailer, and of course no threads in the frame as well. But over the years I have seen a illogical # of riders not 'get it' so the hangers have gotten thicker, and of stronger alloy until now, on the brink of a bold new era of 142 the hangers will be made as burly as possible derailers be dammed. Now the whining can be in the Shimano and SRAM forums about what POS their products are 'cause they can't take a rubenesque rider shaving rocks with the rear mech.

    DT
    Thanks DT. That is good to hear.

    FWIW I've smacked quite a few rocks on the HL with that had zero affect on my X-9 shorty. I'm confident enough about this setup that I don't even have a backup (at the moment). Conversely, I'm down to my last one for the RFX after ordering 4 at the beginning of the summer .

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I don't put anything past anyone anymore
    I would rather replace a d'er once a year--I usually have to anyway--than shell out for a $100 in hangers and potential rear wheel/chainstay replacements( on top of the purchase of a new D'er )..never mind the the miles trecking out from a mangled rear wheel.
    If the hanger was stronger, you would have to replace the rear der. more than the one per year you are now. It would become the weak link.

    Buy a Rohloff and STFU.

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    I agree with DT...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtn hack
    If the hanger was stronger, you would have to replace the rear der. more than the one per year you are now. It would become the weak link.

    Buy a Rohloff and STFU.
    If my name were Mtn. Hack123 that might be the case.

  35. #35
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    Use a real-man's derailer:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  36. #36
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    I don't buy the theory that stronger der hangers will just cause more der failures, actually it's been my experience with Sram X der's in recent years they bend or break with the hanger. The breakaway hanger is to save the frame and that's it.

    Bottom line is it depends on what kind of riding or what kind of terrain you ride in, implying that it's just the rider or they aren't skilled enough or whatever is just more homer nonsense. It's a real issue for those that ride in chunky cond's, good for you homers that don't have to worry about it cause you ride paved dirt paths

    I'd still be using the Saint even on my Sultan if they were available in a H normal, can't stand the retarded rev. shifting. I hope DT is right and a new dropout standard with a Saint style der is available again that can holdup to some abuse.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I'd still be using the Saint even on my Sultan if they were available in a H normal.
    New saint derailers are only rapid-rise?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  38. #38
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    I don't know about the new style Saint, I'm talking about the old style like your running, you can find them in the L normal version but not the H normal, at least I havn't been able to.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I don't know about the new style Saint, I'm talking about the old style like your running, you can find them in the L normal version but not the H normal, at least I havn't been able to.
    Maybe now I guess, but I got this H normal one from Jenson for something stupid like 18 bucks. It's not light, which kind of killed it as far as popularity. Most people would rather snap an XO off every six months, maybe not by their own admission, but shown by the way they spend their money and how this generation of Saint didn't catch on at all.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  40. #40
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    Yeah the Saint axle was a tank, the der itself wasn't that much more weight wise. I had a cool setup with the Hadley hub I was running, they made a special axle for the Saint der with end bolts and the overall weight was close to a standard setup.

    They only made the H normal the last year from what I remember, the big knock on the Saint der at the time was the L normal only, I think that's what killed it more than anything.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by moosehead
    Pfffft, another disappointing thread. You guys can't even focus on talking hangers.
    Now that's a set of hangers worth riding with!




    That old Saint system was fine for the HL or true FR and that's where it should have stayed or should stay, on a bike that's not likely to get much love or rear wheel removals!

    It was s h i t for a DH bike and would be even more c r a p for AM to XC, wheel removal is a complete PIA.
    Though the newer Saint looks good.

    I don;t see the big deal myself, the HL/DHR rear d system is a work of art, the old style hangers maybe could use a Ti version of it maybe for weight for the cost whats another $50 bucks

    Wider axle not sure if it makes a difference, I think damage comes down to the rider more than anything some people wreck s h i t and others no matter how they ride they're bikes look like new, in my case I just wreck myself and ask how's my bike

    Benefits are more to wheel stiffness and frame stiffness, I hear ya about room for protection the rear of the DHR is more protected in the design of chains stays, not sure of HL guess its similar. 105mm won;t be popular for general riders though even though now std in DH for most real bikes.

    I thought the new DWL RFX was gonna have the HL/DHR style hanger anyways
    Last edited by trailadvent; 01-21-2010 at 11:42 AM.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    Now thats a set of hangers worth riding with!




    That old Saint system was fine for the HL or true FR and that's where it should have stayed or should stay, on a bike that's not likely to get much love or rear wheel removals!

    It was s h i t ofr a DH bike and would be even more c r a p for AM to XC, wheel removal is a complete PIA.

    I don;t see the big deal myself, the HL/DHR rear d system is a work of art, the old style hangers maybe could use a Ti version of it maybe for wieght for the cost whats another $50 bucks

    Wider axle not sure if it makes a diffeence, I think damage comes down to the rider more than anything some people wreck s h i t and others no matter how they ride theyre bikes look like new, in my case I just wreck myself and ask how's my bike

    I thought the new DWL RFX was gonna have the HL/DHR style hanger anyways
    I remember riding DH with a guy back in the day (running this Saint s/u on Hadleys) and he was always having some issue with shifting. When he flatted it would take him forever to get going again. He was constantly frustrated and it was HEAVY to boot! I asked him one time when I was looking for a better S/U as I didn't want to end up spending money on it. I remember running the XTR Rapid Rise stuff back in the day too. It came stock on my Homegrown. Shifted great until it got a little mucked up. I ended up putting some sort of shifter cable tensioning device ( a WORM a think) like Jayem's rola magig until I finally converted it to SS.

    I agree with TA that the system used on the HL has been the best to date. As long as you are able to keep the axle greased, it's a snap to take on and off.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I don't know about the new style Saint, I'm talking about the old style like your running, you can find them in the L normal version but not the H normal, at least I havn't been able to.
    What we all need to pray for is an axle mounted Saint Shadow design. Low profile + axle mounted + super beefy. Yaaaa I know.... never happen.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    That old Saint system was fine for the HL or true FR and that's where it should have stayed or should stay, on a bike that's not likely to get much love or rear wheel removals!

    It was s h i t for a DH bike and would be even more c r a p for AM to XC, wheel removal is a complete PIA.

    Though the newer Saint looks good.
    Changing out the rear wheel was not really an issue, did you actually run one or are you speaking from your E experience here? The new Saint makes zero sense to me, they are still gonna break just like a standard der.

    For those of us that are hacks I guess, changing the rear wheel with the der hanging off the bike is a lot better than:

    1) your ride is over
    2) good chance your walking for awhile
    3) there goes another $100
    4) dealing with setting up the rear shifting AGAIN

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    not exactly

    Rroeder, I did not say that a return of the Saint type mounting was coming with 142 x 12, only that that will change the shape of hangers for everyone. No more 'drop outs' means very different shapes, but for the mech itself, I have seen nothing in the future that resembles the first generation Saint but who knows? Few more years with the 142 thru axle will lead to a different market perception of axle and mech and frame intersection and all kinds of changes may take place.

    DT

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    In closing I have been present and have seen more than a few threads where inferior hangers have been the cause of catastrophic failure of spokes, complete rear wheel assemblies, and damage to dropouts. In one instance Turnerbikes refused to warranty a damaged drop out due to the d'er being subsequently sucked into the the rear wheel when it failed. Yet within a week of this individual posting and being refused a warranty per Gregg, DT publicly authorized a replacement Chain stay (for the second time in a month) for a mod who sustained similar damage. Why?

    FWIW...in all the years I've been biking I've never seen a frame damaged from the lack of "forgiveness" of the d'er hanger...and I've owned many more models that have a beefier setup. I've seen the d'ers fail once in a blue moon, but never anything that compromised the frame.

    "Only" had to to replace all spokes, hanger and SRAM XO. Not only that, but also got a fully custom bent drop out.

    I still enjoy man-handling a new hanger on a bent drop out that refused to be covered under warranty.

    On a positive note, customer service offered to bend back the dropout, or quote the price of a new stay.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Changing out the rear wheel was not really an issue, did you actually run one or are you speaking from your E experience here?

    For those of us that are hacks I guess, changing the rear wheel with the der hanging off the bike is a lot better than:

    1) your ride is over
    2) good chance your walking for awhile
    3) there goes another $100
    4) dealing with setting up the rear shifting AGAIN
    I raced a DH season with that [S H I T ] system, and like 123 says it shifted s h i t too but after Sram most Shimano shifted s h i t for me, more personal pref, I like the snappy Sram, as I said the new Saint with stiffer spring redesign copy of Srams routing has made the necessary improvements!

    I don't slate stuff Ive never tried!

    always carried a spare Dhanger for my Spot/RFX hardly a weight issue but that would not surprise me here! t can happen but Ive only ever suffered those above issues with Shimano, in the past nearly every DH race ended up me stuck with one gear in part it could have been a combo of the bike and Saint, the overall setup was not the best for DH for me, it seemed to always pick up ****, even on same course my RFX would never suffer that crap. the Rollamajig was a good plan I tried that with a 9spd XTR setup before the switch to sram back in 03, it didn't work for me though it did improve things!

    My biggest problem with Shimano is it would start out well then slowly degrade, degradation got worse as the conditions got worse, [XTR] Sram [XO, X9] for me didn't suffer this, 1:1 ratio no doubt helps a lot as does the superior spring tension, somewhat closer possibly with the new groups, I'll let others debate that!

    10spd may force my hand, I'm not running that ****, though I'm sure that will be the next big thing here

    Good points DT, I for one forgot about the 140 rear axle system chain stay interface, can't quite picture your version but from mem it seemed better than Syntaces X12 the bolt through from the top may have an interesting effect possibly on the rear integrity of the stays, only specculating I dunno, no doubt FEA testng has been done!

    Last edited by trailadvent; 01-21-2010 at 12:05 PM.
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    TA- I agree the Sram stuff is better from a shifting standpoint, the Saint shifted fine for me tho, not quite as good as the Sram but not having to worry about replacing the rear der/hanger every few months made me forget about Sram.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    TA- I agree the Sram stuff is better from a shifting standpoint, the Saint shifted fine for me tho, not quite as good as the Sram but not having to worry about replacing the rear der/hanger every few months made me forget about Sram.
    I hear ya I also did beat the **** out of that derailleur and it stood up to the abuse and was easily re tuned again, problem is it didn't stay that way come race time, maybe the extra grunt and energy put into the pedals come race run didn't help, but that's when ya need it most, for me when racing that's when I needed it to work.

    If I crashed and wrecked my Rear D then the race was over anyway, I always made the effort to get down if ride able! For DH debatable on how important this is in context of this thread, for Trail, RFX stuff etc I can see if its common how it could be a PIA but Ive not seen this as a common issue here, maybe I'm ignorant of AM riders here and general possibly, I would still look to the rider though, and I count myself as a hack nowadays .
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    I remember riding DH with a guy back in the day (running this Saint s/u on Hadleys) and he was always having some issue with shifting. When he flatted it would take him forever to get going again.
    That's a bike or a cable issue. I'm slamming this derailer against rocks in our technical tracks here and on South Mountain. When you tighten it back up, it goes right back into place. I'd say that if the rear end of the bike sucks, is flexy, or you have poor cable routing/installation, then you might have problems. I do have the rollamajig, but I never have any shifting issues and it's taken a helluva beating. It is kind of lame to change the wheel, as the derailer just kind of flops about and hangs by it's cable. What I don't like about this is that it introduces the possibility of kinking your cable, but otherwise it's not bad, it's also nice that it's just one big bolt essentially. The saint does have a stronger return spring than my XT or LX derailers. A shimano system may not shift exactly like a SRAM system, but the saint does have a stronger spring than most of the shimano stuff, and there is no reason it should shift "crappy" or like "sh*t". That just means the bike or installation is crappy, or like sh*t.

    Back on my old Rocky Mountain frame I broke a few sram ESP 9.0 derailers, the dropout was not replacable. It had been bent already and was well on it's way to being useless, and I would have had to get a brand new chainstay. Replacable dropouts are good. SRAM derailers are disposable in my experience.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    That's a bike or a cable issue. I'm slamming this derailer against rocks in our technical tracks here and on South Mountain. When you tighten it back up, it goes right back into place. I'd say that if the rear end of the bike sucks, is flexy, or you have poor cable routing/installation, then you might have problems. I do have the rollamajig, but I never have any shifting issues and it's taken a helluva beating. It is kind of lame to change the wheel, as the derailer just kind of flops about and hangs by it's cable. What I don't like about this is that it introduces the possibility of kinking your cable, but otherwise it's not bad, it's also nice that it's just one big bolt essentially. The saint does have a stronger return spring than my XT or LX derailers.

    Back on my old Rocky Mountain frame I broke a few sram ESP 9.0 derailers, the dropout was not replacable. It had been bent already and was well on it's way to being useless, and I would have had to get a brand new chainstay.
    Well, he was a DH'er and they aren't particularly known (understandably) for maintenance. I'm sure that he didn't have a cable tensioner and that was mandatory as for the Rapid Rise stuff.

    It rarely kept him from riding, but he was often limited to one or two gears

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Well, he was a DH'er and they aren't particularly known (understandably) for maintenance. I'm sure that he didn't have a cable tensioner and that was mandatory as for the Rapid Rise stuff.

    It rarely kept him from riding, but he was often limited to one or two gears
    One or two gears? Yeah, that's one F-ed up drivetrain. I'm not trying to knock him too much, but if someone came and said that they can't set up a SRAM system then I'd also say they are full of crap. As a former shop mechanic, you get used to installing, setting up, and tuning these systems. You get familiar with the reasons that they don't work, you also see what is necessary to make them work. I've sometimes found crazy things, like cassette spacing out of spec. You know you routed the cables decently, you know you did everything right, but it still won't shift consistantly. There's always a reason, and more than likely it's user error, but every once and a while you find something unexpected. Shimano especially wouldn't put stuff on the market if it didn't work, as they R&D the hell out of their stuff. Whether people like it or not is a different matter, but at least they listen. They didn't force dual-control or rapid-rise down our throats, they gave us a choice when it seemed like those wouldn't catch on as much as they thought. With old SRAM (gripshift) stuff it was difficult to sometimes keep that crisp shifting as the plastic detents wore down in the shifters, but these days both companies are making stuff that will hold up pretty well. It does seem though that Shimano was the only company at least trying to make anything DH/FR oriented as far as drivetrain components, again it doesn't mean every product will be a star, but you got to give them credit for trying.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    One or two gears? Yeah, that's one F-ed up drivetrain. I'm not trying to knock him too much, but if someone came and said that they can't set up a SRAM system then I'd also say they are full of crap. As a former shop mechanic, you get used to installing, setting up, and tuning these systems. You get familiar with the reasons that they don't work, you also see what is necessary to make them work. I've sometimes found crazy things, like cassette spacing out of spec. You know you routed the cables decently, you know you did everything right, but it still won't shift consistantly. There's always a reason, and more than likely it's user error, but every once and a while you find something unexpected. Shimano especially wouldn't put stuff on the market if it didn't work, as they R&D the hell out of their stuff. Whether people like it or not is a different matter, but at least they listen. They didn't force dual-control or rapid-rise down our throats, they gave us a choice when it seemed like those wouldn't catch on as much as they thought. With old SRAM (gripshift) stuff it was difficult to sometimes keep that crisp shifting as the plastic detents wore down in the shifters, but these days both companies are making stuff that will hold up pretty well. It does seem though that Shimano was the only company at least trying to make anything DH/FR oriented as far as drivetrain components, again it doesn't mean every product will be a star, but you got to give them credit for trying.
    It is what it is. At the time I had a Spez Bighit. I had my own issues with keeping stock on hangers...ugh! Right up there with the RFX! I was running a dual with short cage 'cause I liked to take it on long hauls now and again. After a while the tension alone would bend the hanger!

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Well, he was a DH'er and they aren't particularly known (understandably) for maintenance. I'm sure that he didn't have a cable tensioner and that was mandatory as for the Rapid Rise stuff.

    It rarely kept him from riding, but he was often limited to one or two gears
    Those dirte Dhers

    Actually I always thought it was Freeriders [Dirte HUCKERS] that didn't do maintenance, but I concede Ive seen some slack DHers, I would strip mine and clean it after practice a beyotch even for me who cleans his bike to get a reflection each time, but I don't like excuses come race time, if ya screw up ya screw up tough, as much as I hated the Saint I didn't blame it! Ya ride what ya got.

    I must admit I don't have much patience for tuning Shimano stuff, [8spd no probs, it does bug me, prob cause I had such a bad experience with 9spd 1st gen Shimano XTR and XT, my Dura Ace was the same, Campag would just get better the more ya road it, DA was like Saint the more ya road it the worse it got, cables can be an issue, and length routing etc, but I'm anal retentive on that stuff lol some stuff just dosen't fit some people is all and others fine.

    I'm more concerned whether 9spd will receive ongoing development now 10spd roadie c r a p is making its presence felt on MTBs, 08 it was 15mm Gheyaxles, 09 its was poop tapers now its 10spd, dam roadies have lots to answer for and they're onto 11spds, the world is obsessed with more is better, its like Tiger woods syndrome more must be better
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