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  1. #1
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    A joint venture between Turner and Edge Composites

    I mentioned this deep in another thread ~ Maybe DT is considering some carbon for the not so near future, but that's just speculation.

    Nonetheless, a carbon front triangle from Edge with a Al rear end from Turner would indeed be my dream ride.

    Edge is American made, has high standards, and is pricey. Just like Turner.

    Their carbon rims get stellar reviews as being light and very tough, and they use several proprietary production techniques that would lend themselves well to frames.

    Anyhoo, I'm just throwin' this out there hoping to put a bug in Dave's ear.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    I mentioned this deep in another thread ~ Maybe DT is considering some carbon for the not so near future, but that's just speculation.

    Nonetheless, a carbon front triangle from Edge with a Al rear end from Turner would indeed be my dream ride.

    Edge is American made, has high standards, and is pricey. Just like Turner.

    Their carbon rims get stellar reviews as being light and very tough, and they use several proprietary production techniques that would lend themselves well to frames.

    Anyhoo, I'm just throwin' this out there hoping to put a bug in Dave's ear.
    I had to go look it up.

    http://www.edgecomposites.com/

    If you're going to do carbon, may as well do it right. Looks like this is one company still doing it right.
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    Possible...?

    Like almost anything else, Alex already beat you to it.

    It's a 29'er no less!

    The first one I ever saw was at the 2004 Chili Challenge.

  4. #4
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    Alex Morgan whoop as

    Alex beat the industry in a few different things! Notably the gear box bike that GT thinks they were first with. When the geared hub kept blowing up Alex put a road derailer 'in a box' with a cog set and that is what I hear that Honda bikes had in the end, not some crazy cams and whatevers. The dude is a genius, and a hella fast rider on top of that.

    DT

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Alex beat the industry in a few different things! Notably the gear box bike that GT thinks they were first with. When the geared hub kept blowing up Alex put a road derailer 'in a box' with a cog set and that is what I hear that Honda bikes had in the end, not some crazy cams and whatevers. The dude is a genius, and a hella fast rider on top of that.

    DT
    Well, Truvativ is definitely onto something with the "cams and whatevers". No problems with the Hammerschmidt and I've put plenty of hard miles on mine.

    So, I guess your just going to leave the door wide open Dave? Your normal response would have included some amount of dismissiveness if you had not actually entertained the idea of carbon

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Well, Truvativ is definitely onto something with the "cams and whatevers". No problems with the Hammerschmidt and I've put plenty of hard miles on mine.

    So, I guess your just going to leave the door wide open Dave? Your normal response would have included some amount of dismissiveness if you had not actually entertained the idea of carbon
    I guaranty he's looking into it.
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  7. #7
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    Dont do it Dave!

    Leave the plastic bikes,bendy tubes and shaped swagered tubesets to the posers.

  8. #8
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    I'm willing to bet there is already a rendering floating around somewhere. Especially with all of the reviews comparing frame weights.

  9. #9
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    Fook that.
    I'd wouldn't even try a carbon bike.







    Never is a very long time ppl. After changing course and going with the TNT, Sultan and the DW, I'd be suprised if DT said NFW about anything.
    It may not happen, but it is possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Fook that.
    I'd wouldn't even try a carbon bike.







    Never is a very long time ppl. After changing course and going with the TNT, Sultan and the DW, I'd be suprised if DT said NFW about anything.
    It may not happen, but it is possible.
    I still think he could have gotten around enterprising with DW. That's one of the reasons that my '06 TNT is so precious. It stands for something. I couldn't care either way because it will be well out of my price range....I know I better get a demo or there will be hell to pay

  11. #11
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    Edge Composites? Boy, I would love a made-in-the-USA carbon 29er xc endurance racer from Turner, but don't Edge rims cost around a thousand bucks a pair? Hard to believe they could make an entire FS frame for Turner that could retail for under $3.5K. Ouch. I've loved every Turner I've had, but we've all got a "price pain point", so I don't know about Edge. I sure don't want to see mountain bikes go the way of chi-chi French and Eye-talian road bike frames at upwards of $5k a pop. That might drive me back to steel hardtails.

    Both my mtbs are made in the USA, and I love that, but I'm not sure it can be done at anything approaching a reasonable price, unless you are giant sized company like maybe Trek.

    I hope somebody can prove me wrong!
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  12. #12
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    hmmm

    Well everyone must have fallen over dead at Kosmo's assumption of the cost of a US made carbon bike, so subject de-railed. I will re rail it on 123 though... What do you have against the dw-link??? I see you in another forum hoping and cheering for some dw like performing version of something that is not dw 'cause why? You don't like his initials? Have your ridden a Firebird? Did it not crush the old Turner RFX while climbing with even more travel? Do you care if a bike pedals well. It's fine if you don't. Most of the world is riding bikes that don't pedal near as well as a dw-link bike and they have fun. But my job is to make better and better bikes, and the dw-link makes the best pedaling bike, I just keep reading your public wishes for a fantastic bike, but not dw-link and I have wondered.

    DT
    Last edited by turnerbikes; 11-30-2009 at 03:46 PM.

  13. #13
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    Morw pontificating

    I'm just sayin' that a carbon front tri could be sold as an upgrade, not necessarily as the stock model. I suspect that DT will offer aluminum bikes for the next decade, at least.

    Sell carbon front triangles with conservative design goals, say 15% lighter and 15% stiffer. Make the RFX weigh the same but be 25% stiffer. Have a 5 year warranty instead of 2.

    It all sounds reasonable to me

  14. #14
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    I have Edge handlebars and they're very trick...would love to see them get into frames!!

    Just as a reference point, their bars aren't all that much more than other name-branded (easton, etc.) CF bars.
    whatever...

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    Why do I hate DW...?

    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    Well everyone must have fallen over dead at Kosmo's assumption of the cost of a US made carbon bike, so subject de-railed. I will re rail it on 123 though... What do you have against the dw-link??? I see you in another forum hoping and cheering for some dw like performing version of something that is not dw 'cause why? You don't like his initials? Have your ridden a Firebird? Did it not crush the Turner climbing with even more travel? Do you care if a bike pedals well. It's fine if you don't. Most of the world is riding bikes that don't pedal near as well as a dw-link bike and they have fun. But my job is to make better and better bikes, and the dw-link makes the best pedaling bike, I just keep reading your public wishes for a fantastic bike, but not dw-link and I have wondered.

    DT

    In short licensing fees cost me money. Do you think that a genius like Alex Morgan would ever resort to paying unnecessary licensing fees? I have met Alex and I don't think that he would. I could be wrong though. When I first started reading about Dave Turner you struck me as having a similar character. The TNT debacle only strengthened my intuition. Looking back do you really believe that the TNT was on par with the Horst link? Or was it an acceptable compromise to paying the fee? It's questionable IMO.

    So, after my test ride on the spot, I was not at all impressed. I was ready to be impressed, but I wasn't. It creaked, flexed, and bottomed. After I set it up correctly it became harsh and the comfort level deteriorated. My RFX is still the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden. Granted one could invest in all of the aftermarket products to achieve the same level of comfort/performance from the DW, but then that defeats the purpose of upgrading the design vs just investing in quality aftermarket parts.

    It was a bit of a shocker to find out that you would pay a fee for a design that IMO provided very little/if any overall improvement. That translates to all of your potential and existing customers paying that fee as well. I do understand though. It would appear that your own generosity and prior considerations may have left you with nowhere to go as far as something new. It was obvious that the market was starting to explode with "better" stuff. You were/are innovative by many other companies standards, but again, quality products and excellent CS seem to be the norm these days. You gotta compete, right? I don't envy your position in the least, but I would have thought that you would have done a better job of explaining your reasoning besides just simply saying the DW link is simply the best. And I certainly would have thought that you would have exhausted every measure to design something new in house.

    I have yet to see anything revolutionary in the RFX except a lot of conformity to "so called" industry standards. It's obvious that the industry as a whole caters to the weekend warrior that spends a lot and rides very little. Not to the riders that really punish their equipment. It's real easy to inflate costs when you are selling the impression that expensive equates to performance.

    I don't pretend to know what goes on behind closed doors or that I am any kind of expert. This is the internet, I don't have to be. Since I'm not privy to discussing my thoughts with you in person, I am obliged to speculate, just as Juan Speeder did with this very thread. I could be wrong, I could be right, but something that I said must have grabbed your attention.

    My interest in Chumba was nothing more than to get Alan to spill the beans. And provide some feedback that I think will benefit his customers ( our community ). No matter what I think about Allen though, as I started to critique the frames they actually started to look good on paper. I wouldn't mind having a more purebred XC horse in the stable if there was something that offered as much versatility as my RFX., so, played devils advocate in the hope that my opinions would weigh in on the new design. I think Allen is an idiot...BTW.

    Well, I think that about covers it. I will say that I am happy to be a Turner customer. There is some awesome history behind the frames that I own. It's tough to see a generation of riders get pushed by the wayside for the buying tendencies of those consumers who can afford the latest and greatest year after year.

    ...and yeah, his initials on your bike kinda bug me!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    In short licensing fees cost me money. Do you think that a genius like Alex Morgan would ever resort to paying unnecessary licensing fees? I have met Alex and I don't think that he would. I could be wrong though. When I first started reading about Dave Turner you struck me as having a similar character. The TNT debacle only strengthened my intuition. Looking back do you really believe that the TNT was on par with the Horst link? Or was it an acceptable compromise to paying the fee? It's questionable IMO.

    So, after my test ride on the spot, I was not at all impressed. I was ready to be impressed, but I wasn't. It creaked, flexed, and bottomed. After I set it up correctly it became harsh and the comfort level deteriorated. My RFX is still the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden. Granted one could invest in all of the aftermarket products to achieve the same level of comfort/performance from the DW, but then that defeats the purpose of upgrading the design vs just investing in quality aftermarket parts.

    It was a bit of a shocker to find out that you would pay a fee for a design that IMO provided very little/if any overall improvement. That translates to all of your potential and existing customers paying that fee as well. I do understand though. It would appear that your own generosity and prior considerations may have left you with nowhere to go as far as something new. It was obvious that the market was starting to explode with "better" stuff. You were/are innovative by many other companies standards, but again, quality products and excellent CS seem to be the norm these days. You gotta compete, right? I don't envy your position in the least, but I would have thought that you would have done a better job of explaining your reasoning besides just simply saying the DW link is simply the best. And I certainly would have thought that you would have exhausted every measure to design something new in house.

    I have yet to see anything revolutionary in the RFX except a lot of conformity to "so called" industry standards. It's obvious that the industry as a whole caters to the weekend warrior that spends a lot and rides very little. Not to the riders that really punish their equipment. It's real easy to inflate costs when you are selling the impression that expensive equates to performance.

    I don't pretend to know what goes on behind closed doors or that I am any kind of expert. This is the internet, I don't have to be. Since I'm not privy to discussing my thoughts with you in person, I am obliged to speculate, just as Juan Speeder did with this very thread. I could be wrong, I could be right, but something that I said must have grabbed your attention.

    My interest in Chumba was nothing more than to get Alan to spill the beans. And provide some feedback that I think will benefit his customers ( our community ). No matter what I think about Allen though, as I started to critique the frames they actually started to look good on paper. I wouldn't mind having a more purebred XC horse in the stable if there was something that offered as much versatility as my RFX., so, played devils advocate in the hope that my opinions would weigh in on the new design. I think Allen is an idiot...BTW.

    Well, I think that about covers it. I will say that I am happy to be a Turner customer. There is some awesome history behind the frames that I own. It's tough to see a generation of riders get pushed by the wayside for the buying tendencies of those consumers who can afford the latest and greatest year after year.

    ...and yeah, his initials on your bike kinda bug me!
    It just sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder.

    You didn't mention anything about the ride quality of DW's.

    You do mention not wanting to pay for his designs.

    We should be grateful for partnerships like this - they provide us better products. DT knows bikes and manufacturing like no body's business. DW knows all the physics of suspension that most of us aren't even smart enough to understand, much less invent.

    You mentioned in another thread that "4 years ago you (sic) didn't even know what suspension was." - now you're an expert?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    In short licensing fees cost me money...
    I can only assume that you typed that manifesto on a Linux machine

  18. #18
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    I would rather DW initials on my Turner than a green ICT sticker! mtnbiker123 It's funny that you didn't like the Spot - I have owned an 05 and 06 and just got a 10 DW - the DW out performs the 05 Horst and the 06 TNT in every way - plus it's slightly slacker with a 150mm fork which I enjoy and loses none of it's ability to climb the steeps. I think if you can get past the cost a DW RFX would make your RFX and Highline redundant. I also think it's fair to say that many, many people prefer the DW versions over the TNT / Horst version Turners. Not saying you are wrong but am surprised!!!!!! I am reserving judgement on whether a 2010 Spot can replace my light build (Fox 36 RC2, RP23, 819 rimmed) 08 RFX though. I am beginning to step up my game somewhat on the RFX so may even keep both and get burlier wheels and coil front and back on the RFX.

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    Why don't you STFU and listen for a change.

    You read whatever you wanted into my little spiel and then you offer up your interpretation of an answer to a question that wasn't even asked of you? I could say the same about you. Are you just defending your purchase? 4 years or twenty years does not make anyone an expert if they are not open minded. I was very much impartial of DW prior to actually riding one.

    When you're actually riding (as opposed to walking) the type of terrain that I frequent, then I might be partial to your opinion. Until then just bask in the glory of your DW and be content to fantasize about "mountain biking".

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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    I can only assume that you typed that manifesto on a Linux machine
    Shouldn't you be posting pictures of viscous monkey attacks or something ?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    Nonetheless, a carbon front triangle from Edge with a Al rear end from Turner would indeed be my dream ride.
    To date, Edge just makes tubing, not complete frames (or front triangles for that matter).

    I would die a happy man (and I'm relatively young!) if I never saw a carbon Turner. That said, it's not just bicycles where carbon is making headway/being pushed on the masses. Wonder if SAPA is also feeling the pressure to diversify?
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  22. #22
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    this thread is gonna go places

  23. #23
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    I-Heart Says: DT knows bikes and manufacturing like no body's business. DW knows all the physics of suspension that most of us aren't even smart enough to understand, much less invent.

    +1 on that, plus what is wrong with paying a guy a fair price for his intellectual proprerty, especially if it works?

    Miles says: I would die a happy man (and I'm relatively young!) if I never saw a carbon Turner.

    Just what I thought, until a GF rep talked me into trying out a Superfly 100. Yikes! Had to have it. All-mountain? Nah, don't really need it. XC endurance racing? Yup, bring it on! But I'm probably not as relatively young as Miles!
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Why don't you STFU and listen for a change.

    You read whatever you wanted into my little spiel and then you offer up your interpretation of an answer to a question that wasn't even asked of you? I could say the same about you. Are you just defending your purchase? 4 years or twenty years does not make anyone an expert if they are not open minded. I was very much impartial of DW prior to actually riding one.

    When you're actually riding (as opposed to walking) the type of terrain that I frequent, then I might be partial to your opinion. Until then just bask in the glory of your DW and be content to fantasize about "mountain biking".
    here's some stuff where you want a chumba designed dw link. why would you want a knockoff of a bike you're not that impressed with? as afr as your huge e-riding skills vs anyone else's they're just that. e-riding

    Mtn. Biker123
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flyer
    Well, that is a no-brainer- it has to! You know they studied it and the patents and then tried to design just outside the patent parameters so as to not get into legal trouble. I mean, we are talking about a guy with a law degree here....not a lawyer but a guy with a law degree...maybe a desperate one trying to get some new customers.



    Well, WHAT IF they tapped into something? If he lets US design a more affordable version it could be a good thing. He sounds like he know very little about anything but suspension dynamic. The comment about the 1.125 and 1.5 HT has really got me wondering He's certainly not doing the brand any favors right now. Just have to see how it plays out.


    and another

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    FWIW, I welcome a homegrown DW knock-off that is not tied to license fee's and unjustified cost!


    and more

    Mtn. Biker123
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by qbert2000
    how is it going to cost you in the long run? if dw has a great design, why would he not want to get paid for it. What do you think the licensing fees are per bike? he deserves to get paid. it's not much. he'll make more, the more dw bikes sold. it's not a lot per bike for him.

    how can you incorporate platform into the design with a mini link? wouldn't that be anti squat? i thought alan said that antisquat was irelevent on a bicycle. do you know something he doesn't?


    First I am no engineer, just a regular guy who has been reading a lot of suspension talk and dabbling in custom tuning dampers related to various ride characteristics for a few years.

    It seems that it is easier to engineer platform, anti-squat, sag..WTF.. into this design than the Horst. Which makes sense. So the mini link is a good a good solution to being able to run fully adjustable shocks and get better performance, overall...I summize.

    That said, it seems that DW's patents, at least the way it's worded prevent others from even coming close to his design. We will pay more because he can demand more...again, I summize. This seems to be causing a craze amongst all of the manufacturers to come up with something new. Even if it means deceiving the public.

    FWIW, The DW has great potential. The RFX should be feared amongst the other Mfgs. Right now they don't have anything for me, but Chumba could. The Spot is not versatile enough and the price just flat out turns me off.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Shouldn't you be posting pictures of viscous monkey attacks or something ?
    What exactly crosses the line over there still baffles me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Why don't you STFU and listen for a change. ".
    Why? Because you're angry, or ignorant or both?



    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    4 years or twenty years does not make anyone an expert if they are not open minded. ".
    You admittedly have little experience with suspension bikes, that's all I pointed out. Whether or not you're open minded doesn't really matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    When you're actually riding (as opposed to walking) the type of terrain that I frequent, then I might be partial to your opinion. Until then just bask in the glory of your DW and be content to fantasize about "mountain biking".
    I'm sure everyone is impressed with your e-riding. I know I am!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    When you're actually riding (as opposed to walking) the type of terrain that I frequent, then I might be partial to your opinion. Until then just bask in the glory of your DW and be content to fantasize about "mountain biking".
    Why is it that when you are challenged for being duplicitous, or inconsistent, or for making assumptions you revert to e-chest thumping about your alleged riding skills vs. your questioners' alleged riding skills?

    Do you know what that means?

    It means that you just lost the argument.

    Again.

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    I rode a 2010 carbon Trek Remedy all over Moab last month, and it is EXTREMELY hard to find fault with a 27 pound 6x6 weapon. That being said, I'm not mad at carbon anymore.

    Except for handlebars, I'm still mad at it there.

  29. #29
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    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  30. #30
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    I have a bonnet trimmed with blue

    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    Edge is American made, has high standards, and is pricey. Just like Turner.
    This is not a bookmark so that I'll get email updates on this thread.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  31. #31
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    Leave the carbon fiber where it belongs....on road bikes.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Team Sanchez; "Always hittin the upper lip"

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chingon
    Leave the carbon fiber where it belongs....on road bikes.
    Is it alright if we put some on the World Champ's bike? Along with some 140mm rotors!?

    Scarlett Johansson loves my hummus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolling Shutter
    Why is it that when you are challenged for being duplicitous, or inconsistent, or for making assumptions you revert to e-chest thumping about your alleged riding skills vs. your questioners' alleged riding skills?

    Do you know what that means?

    It means that you just lost the argument.

    Again.

    I don't feel challenged.

    I actually didn't realize we were competing. It's more helpful to your opponent, the audience for that matter, if there is some idea of where the starting line is.

  34. #34
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    Wanna venture a guess as to what the DW license costs per frame? I bet you'd be surprised

    HINT: you likely couldn't fill your gas tank with the total (well, unless you drive a scooter).


  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Wanna venture a guess as to what the DW license costs per frame? I bet you'd be surprised

    HINT: you likely couldn't fill your gas tank with the total.

    .01? per frame

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    I would rather DW initials on my Turner than a green ICT sticker! mtnbiker123 It's funny that you didn't like the Spot - I have owned an 05 and 06 and just got a 10 DW - the DW out performs the 05 Horst and the 06 TNT in every way - plus it's slightly slacker with a 150mm fork which I enjoy and loses none of it's ability to climb the steeps. I think if you can get past the cost a DW RFX would make your RFX and Highline redundant. I also think it's fair to say that many, many people prefer the DW versions over the TNT / Horst version Turners. Not saying you are wrong but am surprised!!!!!! I am reserving judgement on whether a 2010 Spot can replace my light build (Fox 36 RC2, RP23, 819 rimmed) 08 RFX though. I am beginning to step up my game somewhat on the RFX so may even keep both and get burlier wheels and coil front and back on the RFX.
    What I am saying is that there is nothing in the Turner lineup, at the moment, that suites my riding preference and if I were in the market for a light trail bike, I surely would not be looking at the spot. There are too many good deals on just as capable bikes out there right now. However, if DT had done another run of 07-08 RFX with a tweak here and there....Beefier, slacker, lower, 1.5, ISCG I probably would have been all over it. When I decided to get the HL, I was ready to sell the RFX or even trade for something that had a warranty. I had a 2006 BTW. I was afraid that another season on the RFX might be the end. Either the bike or me!! I think a beefier RFX would have been the ticket, but the DW link took the spotlight. The new RFX may be the shiz, but again, I can't fork out that kind of coin. That said, I'd still be interested in finding a good HL with a few of the characteristics that are lacking on my 2006.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Wanna venture a guess as to what the DW license costs per frame? I bet you'd be surprised

    HINT: you likely couldn't fill your gas tank with the total (well, unless you drive a scooter).
    You sound business savy. Do you really believe that there are no other costs associated with the production of a new design? Don't you think the current price is a reflection of many more billable hours by DW prior to it's release.... and tooling?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    What I am saying is that there is nothing in the Turner lineup, at the moment, that suites my riding preference and if I were in the market for a light trail bike, I surely would not be looking at the spot. However, if DT had done another run of 07-08 RFX with a tweak here and there....Beefier, slacker, lower, 1.5, ISCG I probably would have been all over it.
    You don't need a 1.5 HT on a 'light trail bike" !!! ISCG would be sweet for HS cranks apps.

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    I think a Turner made in collaboration with Edge would be a fantastic idea, especially if Edge didn't insist on being an equity partner. However, I think the frames may simply cost too much. Edge don't play around with tooling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supramk388
    You don't need a 1.5 HT on a 'light trail bike" !!! ISCG would be sweet for HS cranks apps.
    My idea of light and your idea of light are very different. How much do you weigh? Yeah, I want a 1.5 on just about any bike that I buy in the future

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    My idea of light and your idea of light are very different. How much do you weigh? Yeah, I want a 1.5 on just about any bike that I buy in the future
    You got all of 20 LBS on me big boy, your days of 200+ are over I think?

    If it makes you feel better by all means but do you plan on running into a brick wall at 40 MPH? Only reason why I would think you may need a 1.5 HT is all I am saying and that does not sound fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supramk388
    You got all of 20 LBS on me big boy, your days of 200+ are over I think? If it makes you feel better by all means but you plan on running into a brick wall at 40 MPH? Only reason why i would think you may need a 1.5 HT is all I am saying and that does not sound fun.
    There are quite a few frames out that I would consider for a lightish (34-36 lbs) trail bike with options....

    The Tracer comes to mind. BTW...I have made a habit out of running into brick walls lately

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    The current prices and the biggest part of the increase is due to SAPA raising their prices. I bet some of that is indeed due to the more complex frame design of the DWL versus the TNT or HL but prices went up regardless. Several other frame builders' prices went up by a few hundred at about the same time. DW also has consulting charges, no doubt. It all adds up but I can't even venture a percentage guess though a Knolly or Intense or Ventana are all between $2,000 - $2,500, so they are in what I consider that high-end range.

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    Why is it so awesome to have a Carbon fiber Turner? People complain about flex and worry about crashing.
    The 2010 Giant Reign X with RP23 weighs about the same as the IBIS MOJO HD.
    Where is the benefit?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    .... The new RFX may be the shiz, but again, I can't fork out that kind of coin.
    and there it is
    A green bird with a red body. We could look it up in a book. Or we could look up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    You sound business savy. Do you really believe that there are no other costs associated with the production of a new design? Don't you think the current price is a reflection of many more billable hours by DW prior to it's release.... and tooling?

    why do you continually whine about licensing fees then? obviously you know that there are reasons for the price increases beyond dw's fees. christ, you should change your name to jaybo123. yes the new bikes are expensive, the price isn't going to drop anytime soon. stop b!tching and get something else then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    Wanna venture a guess as to what the DW license costs per frame? I bet you'd be surprised

    HINT: you likely couldn't fill your gas tank with the total (well, unless you drive a scooter).
    this is comedy right here..

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    few

    It seems you're more upset with my acknowledgement that the dw-link is better than I could have come up with 'in house'. Just because some come up with thier 'own' stuff does not make it work or smart. I try to understand my limits, and after riding an early dw I knew where mine was. I don't know whether Alex would license or not, but I licensed the Horst link to start Turner bikes, and yes I still think the TNT was as good pedaling, and going down the steeps and rocks, better than my version of the HL/ICT.
    I am a frame designer and use the tools I need to get the job done. I am sorry your test ride was not more impressive, I would have liked to see how the bike was set up, but the reality is there is 20mm of travel between them so making the Spot cover the RFX was asking a bit much. The fork and bar were probably not as big as you are used to either. Obviously the new RFX would be more to your liking, but with the costs going up I am not counting on you for a sale.

    Industry standards. Everything you are riding right now was new at one time and a HUGE PITA to a group of riders. 1.125 headtubes, 73mm BB shells, disc brakes, click shifting, and going way back 135 spaced rear hubs. Sorry if I missed a couple. These were all new ideas forced upon the poor hard core riders that were just pedaling along not bothering anyone else. Then WHAM, the evil industry conspired to tear more money outa their pockets all in the name of PROFIT, bastids. Not performance. Nope, a fully rigid, friction shifting lugged steel mtb with one choice of tire tread are all we needed to be mountainbikers. So when I put 142 on the back and tapered compatible head tubes I am doing it to make more money? Am I doing it to push riders/customers aside? Nooo, I am doing it for the same reason that 130 rears went away, and 100 fronts are now XC only, and click shifting is easier to use and wider and eventually bigger BBs last longer and suspension is MORE FUN and wider bars offer more control and disc brakes allow all these things to stop better than anyone could have ever imagined. To make a better bike riding experience, and yes, you and a few others will be bummed. Stock pile 07-08 RFXs and ride on as they are certainly good, but my job like millions before me is to make my product better. It could be wagon wheels or weapons of stone and iron to kill my enemy with, or the air bag maker hoping less people are maimed in a car wreck, but this is about bicycles and I want to make better ones and that means changes.

    DT

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    It seems you're more upset with my acknowledgement that the dw-link is better than I could have come up with 'in house'. Just because some come up with thier 'own' stuff does not make it work or smart. I try to understand my limits, and after riding an early dw I knew where mine was. I don't know whether Alex would license or not, but I licensed the Horst link to start Turner bikes, and yes I still think the TNT was as good pedaling, and going down the steeps and rocks, better than my version of the HL/ICT.
    I am a frame designer and use the tools I need to get the job done. I am sorry your test ride was not more impressive, I would have liked to see how the bike was set up, but the reality is there is 20mm of travel between them so making the Spot cover the RFX was asking a bit much. The fork and bar were probably not as big as you are used to either. Obviously the new RFX would be more to your liking, but with the costs going up I am not counting on you for a sale.

    Industry standards. Everything you are riding right now was new at one time and a HUGE PITA to a group of riders. 1.125 headtubes, 73mm BB shells, disc brakes, click shifting, and going way back 135 spaced rear hubs. Sorry if I missed a couple. These were all new ideas forced upon the poor hard core riders that were just pedaling along not bothering anyone else. Then WHAM, the evil industry conspired to tear more money outa their pockets all in the name of PROFIT, bastids. Not performance. Nope, a fully rigid, friction shifting lugged steel mtb with one choice of tire tread are all we needed to be mountainbikers. So when I put 142 on the back and tapered compatible head tubes I am doing it to make more money? Am I doing it to push riders/customers aside? Nooo, I am doing it for the same reason that 130 rears went away, and 100 fronts are now XC only, and click shifting is easier to use and wider and eventually bigger BBs last longer and suspension is MORE FUN and wider bars offer more control and disc brakes allow all these things to stop better than anyone could have ever imagined. To make a better bike riding experience, and yes, you and a few others will be bummed. Stock pile 07-08 RFXs and ride on as they are certainly good, but my job like millions before me is to make my product better. It could be wagon wheels or weapons of stone and iron to kill my enemy with, or the air bag maker hoping less people are maimed in a car wreck, but this is about bicycles and I want to make better ones and that means changes.

    DT
    This response right here is why Dave Turner is a stand up guy in an industry of shady characters.
    Voltron

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    Thread De-rail

    Quote Originally Posted by wilks
    I would rather DW initials on my Turner than a green ICT sticker! mtnbiker123 It's funny that you didn't like the Spot - I have owned an 05 and 06 and just got a 10 DW - the DW out performs the 05 Horst and the 06 TNT in every way - plus it's slightly slacker with a 150mm fork which I enjoy and loses none of it's ability to climb the steeps. I think if you can get past the cost a DW RFX would make your RFX and Highline redundant. I also think it's fair to say that many, many people prefer the DW versions over the TNT / Horst version Turners. Not saying you are wrong but am surprised!!!!!! I am reserving judgement on whether a 2010 Spot can replace my light build (Fox 36 RC2, RP23, 819 rimmed) 08 RFX though. I am beginning to step up my game somewhat on the RFX so may even keep both and get burlier wheels and coil front and back on the RFX.

    Keep us updated as to your thoughts about this. I have an 07 RFX, and wonder if I went to a DW spot with a bigger fork, ie: Lyrik/Talas 36, would I have a bike that does everything my RFX does, but then have the ability to make it a lighter trail bike with a different wheelset/shock etc.
    Astigmatic Visionary

  51. #51
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    I'm not reading all that. Someone tell me he ain't making a plastic or bendy bike, please.

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    My RFX has been at 5.5" of travel and my front fork at the time was set at 170mm...FWIW.

    Don't forget that I have ridden Pj's bike with a moto mx. In the area of comfort and performance, back to back, my RFX still prevailed. It was obviously heavier and more difficult to lug around, but overall the RFX is a better ride (for me).

    As far as really agro AM and guys asking whether the current spot can replace their RFX, just makes cringe! I know what the RFX is capable of, going up and down. The DW spot does not hold a candle to the RFX IMO. If your prepared to carry the weight.

    When Mo came out to visit and we took him of some of the trails, particularly one that we built, he was very hesitant to hit some of the stuff we were showing him. He did hit that little drop, but basically rolled it to 5 footer and bottomed the bike extremely harshly. With what I've experienced and what I've seen in the spot, it doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the RFX either.

    Like I said, I was ready to be impressed and so were a number of others in our group. The less experienced (noob) riders appeared to like the spot a lot more that the old skool dudes. Probably because the transfer of power is so obvious. However, that same feeling translated to inadequate DH performance for more than a few of us. Funny, just a few weeks before, Bikeworks had a Giant demo day and most all of these same die hard Turner riders (myself included) really liked the Reign. So if your argument is that we are just "stuck in our ways", I think your wrong.

  53. #53
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    Mt Biker 123

    Dear Mr. Mt Biker 123,

    I'm guessing that you are a contributing member to society. I am curious, what exactly is your profession? (By that I mean, when you want to provide food for you and your family, where does the money that you pay for that food come from?)
    dw★link
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes

    Industry standards. Everything you are riding right now was new at one time and a HUGE PITA to a group of riders. 1.125 headtubes, 73mm BB shells, disc brakes, click shifting, and going way back 135 spaced rear hubs. Sorry if I missed a couple. These were all new ideas forced upon the poor hard core riders that were just pedaling along not bothering anyone else. Then WHAM, the evil industry conspired to tear more money outa their pockets all in the name of PROFIT, bastids. Not performance. Nope, a fully rigid, friction shifting lugged steel mtb with one choice of tire tread are all we needed to be mountainbikers. So when I put 142 on the back and tapered compatible head tubes I am doing it to make more money? Am I doing it to push riders/customers aside? Nooo, I am doing it for the same reason that 130 rears went away, and 100 fronts are now XC only, and click shifting is easier to use and wider and eventually bigger BBs last longer and suspension is MORE FUN and wider bars offer more control and disc brakes allow all these things to stop better than anyone could have ever imagined. To make a better bike riding experience, and yes, you and a few others will be bummed. Stock pile 07-08 RFXs and ride on as they are certainly good, but my job like millions before me is to make my product better. It could be wagon wheels or weapons of stone and iron to kill my enemy with, or the air bag maker hoping less people are maimed in a car wreck, but this is about bicycles and I want to make better ones and that means changes.

    DT
    Obviously there should be upgrades and improvements! The way the market works, though, is that more often than not it appears to be at the expense of early adopters. The industry sometimes even makes money on it's failures

  55. #55
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    This thread gives me a headache. I do have a question though...

    If DT is not a manufacturer(SAPA), and not a designer(DW), is he a marketer?

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    The industry sometimes even makes money on it's failures
    Unless you're referring to the oil industry, I'd like to see you qualify that statement.

    The fact of the matter is, someone's always going to be taking a risk in business. It's just the nature of economics. However, as a self proclaimed "early adopter" by nature, I am well aware that I may/ may not get the perfectly polished product the first time around. I have also learned that there are companies that strive to quickly resolve any unforeseen shortcomings as quickly and effectively as possible. Turner Bikes is easily a leader in this department...I don't think anyone can rightly accuse them of not doing their due diligence to R&D a product before taking the risk of launching a new offering in the marketplace. They also go well above & beyond to guarantee a level of durability/function in their products...I am sure, at times, to their own hurt.

    Remember, the market equilibrium will essentially determine pricing...much to the chagrin of many a small business owner.


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    Quote Originally Posted by McStank
    This thread gives me a headache. I do have a question though...

    If DT is not a manufacturer(SAPA), and not a designer(DW), is he a marketer?
    How could you possibly disqualify him from being a designer?


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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    Dear Mr. Mt Biker 123,

    I'm guessing that you are a contributing member to society. I am curious, what exactly is your profession? (By that I mean, when you want to provide food for you and your family, where does the money that you pay for that food come from?)
    hey dw ,,,still love my sultan! thanx for all the great rides on your designs , for all these years! and many more to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    Dear Mr. Mt Biker 123,

    I'm guessing that you are a contributing member to society. I am curious, what exactly is your profession? (By that I mean, when you want to provide food for you and your family, where does the money that you pay for that food come from?)
    Yes, I pay my taxes. What does that have to do with the discussion?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Yes, I pay my taxes. What does that have to do with the discussion?
    So with my amazing Sherlock Holmes like powers of deduction, I can safely assume that because you pay taxes you have a job. I had no doubt really. Please, just humor me, what is it that you do for work?
    dw★link
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  61. #61
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    oops double post..
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by McStank
    This thread gives me a headache. I do have a question though...

    If DT is not a manufacturer(SAPA), and not a designer(DW), is he a marketer?
    David is like the conductor in an orchestra, he sees all the individual pieces and puts them together in a timely manner to make a unique body of work that is shaped by his individualism, passion, and vision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick watts
    hey dw ,,,still love my sultan! thanx for all the great rides on your designs , for all these years! and many more to come.
    I'm stoked to hear that you are still loving that badboy Rick, hope you had a great Thanksgiving with the family!
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    He should be a lawyer! He argues everything!

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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    David is like the conductor in an orchestra, he sees all the individual pieces and puts them together in a timely manner to make a unique body of work that is shaped by his individualism, passion, and vision.
    Or a great chef.

    Or a great author.

    They didn't invent their medium, but create great things with it.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  66. #66
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    DT is a designer AND a rider

    Just my 2 cents but this is getting a little crazy. I've had several rides with DT and he is the real deal. He is passionate about riding. I find that he is even polite when he kicks your ass on a ride. He is also borderline crazy with respect to making his bikes better. I know he has fidgeted with rediculously small changes in pivot placements etc.

    I am free to ride whatever I like. I like a lot of bikes. I've never ridden anything I like more than my Turner DW Spot. Before that it was a different Turner.

    If DT decides to experiment with making bikes out of recycled human remains, I will try one with an open mind. (That was a joke for those who are about to start a rumor).

    Cheers!

    Mel

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    So with my amazing Sherlock Holmes like powers of deduction, I can safely assume that because you pay taxes you have a job. I had no doubt really. Please, just humor me, what is it that you do for work?
    when he's not digging ditches, or crushing empty beer cans with his thick skull, he somehow makes a living getting himself in deep sheit on the internet.
    jaybo123; you've got a new nickname Bryan.
    ****

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    That's what my mother always told me, but I think she's happier with the way things turned out. That lawyer biz is just so darn corrupt!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    when he's not digging ditches, or crushing empty beer cans with his thick skull, he somehow makes a living getting himself in deep sheit on the internet.
    jaybo123; you've got a new nickname Bryan.
    Thanks Rene ...any more questions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    So with my amazing Sherlock Holmes like powers of deduction, I can safely assume that because you pay taxes you have a job. I had no doubt really. Please, just humor me, what is it that you do for work?
    Sorry, but I fail to see the significance. What puts food on our table and clothes on our backs has absolutely nothing to do with biking. I like to keep it that way. It makes the experience more pure for me. If you would like to carry on a conversation about what I do outside of riding bikes and sharing that experience on a "REVIEW" site, I'm happy to chat via PM.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade
    when he's not digging ditches, or crushing empty beer cans with his thick skull, he somehow makes a living getting himself in deep sheit on the internet.
    jaybo123; you've got a new nickname Bryan.
    I don't think all those beer cans were empty.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Sorry, but I fail to see the significance. What puts food on our table and clothes on our backs has absolutely nothing to do with biking. I like to keep it that way. It makes the experience more pure for me. If you would like to carry on a conversation about what I do outside of riding bikes and sharing that experience on a "REVIEW" site, I'm happy to chat via PM.
    Interesting dynamic. We can question the manufacturers business practices and policies, but they can't question ours.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    I don't think all those beer cans were empty.
    Now this is great! Just because we don't stand behind the same equipment, doesn't mean I cant' see the humor in all of this.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Now this is great! Just because we don't stand behind the same equipment, doesn't mean I cant' see the humor in all of this.
    humor's good, mtb123.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    I don't think all those beer cans were empty.
    I think he's a couple cans short of a six pack.
    ****

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    Interesting dynamic. We can question the manufacturers business practices and policies, but they can't question ours.
    We are here to provide reviews and rider input, not answer a bunch of personal questions. There are other forums for that. The Manufactures are here to help sell their products. In doing so they open the door to scrutiny, or overly lavish testimony . I don't need to know what DW is having for dinner to decide whether or not his design is worth my investment.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    Sorry, but I fail to see the significance. What puts food on our table and clothes on our backs has absolutely nothing to do with biking. I like to keep it that way. It makes the experience more pure for me. If you would like to carry on a conversation about what I do outside of riding bikes and sharing that experience on a "REVIEW" site, I'm happy to chat via PM.

    Interesting, because for me, what puts food on my table and clothes on my back has everything to do with biking. This point however, seems to be lost on you.

    You know that I am a living breathing person, right? I ride my bike and enjoy the trails just like you. I have a wife that I love, two dogs, and friends. For work, I used to have a 9-5 job where I developed military technology. It was a good and reasonably high paying job. At night, every night almost, I would come home and work on my dream of making bicycles. For YEARS, I spent almost all of my free time working on developing the ideas that became dw-link. My girlfriend (now wife) was very understanding and put up with the countless nights where I came out to meet everyone late because "Dave was working on his bike project". When the time came, I quit my job. I spent literally all of my savings on applying for patents to protect the ideas that I had come up with in hopes that I could apply them to bikes, make riding more fun, and live a life that few have the chance to. I made huge personal and financial sacrifices and took a massive chance to bring my idea (dw-link) to the world, and I'd like to think that there are people out there whose lives have improved in some small way because of it.

    When you say (and I quote) "FWIW, I welcome a homegrown DW knock-off that is not tied to license fee's and unjustified cost!", that just makes me shake my head.

    How would you feel if I suggested that someone wait for you outside your work and steal your paycheck when you walk out? It's no big deal, right? After all, its not like you worked or sacrificed anything for that paycheck, it should be shared with everyone for free! How about your bike or some other possession that you worked for? If a thief steals it, that's OK?

    Of course you don't feel that way. You worked for your life, possessions, and happiness.

    It's not going to end my world if you don't like me (although you've never met me, I'm a likeable guy!! heh) , my designs, or anything I'm involved in, but just know that I am here working 10+ hours a day in great part to hopefully improve the quality of life for people very much like you. I'm just asking for a chance here.

    With Respect,

    Dave Weagle
    dw★link
    Split Pivot
    @daveweagle -Twitter

  78. #78
    Moosehead
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    Good onya DW & DT. Thankfully, a few others also believe in free market capitalism despite the current popular trend to the contrary. Carry on, please.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    Interesting, because for me, what puts food on my table and clothes on my back has everything to do with biking. This point however, seems to be lost on you.

    You know that I am a living breathing person, right? I ride my bike and enjoy the trails just like you. I have a wife that I love, two dogs, and friends. For work, I used to have a 9-5 job where I developed military technology. It was a good and reasonably high paying job. At night, every night almost, I would come home and work on my dream of making bicycles. For YEARS, I spent almost all of my free time working on developing the ideas that became dw-link. My girlfriend (now wife) was very understanding and put up with the countless nights where I came out to meet everyone late because "Dave was working on his bike project". When the time came, I quit my job. I spent literally all of my savings on applying for patents to protect the ideas that I had come up with in hopes that I could apply them to bikes, make riding more fun, and live a life that few have the chance to. I made huge personal and financial sacrifices and took a massive chance to bring my idea (dw-link) to the world, and I'd like to think that there are people out there whose lives have improved in some small way because of it.

    When you say (and I quote) "FWIW, I welcome a homegrown DW knock-off that is not tied to license fee's and unjustified cost!", that just makes me shake my head.

    How would you feel if I suggested that someone wait for you outside your work and steal your paycheck when you walk out? It's no big deal, right? After all, its not like you worked or sacrificed anything for that paycheck, it should be shared with everyone for free! How about your bike or some other possession that you worked for? If a thief steals it, that's OK?

    Of course you don't feel that way. You worked for your life, possessions, and happiness.

    It's not going to end my world if you don't like me (although you've never met me, I'm a likeable guy!! heh) , my designs, or anything I'm involved in, but just know that I am here working 10+ hours a day in great part to hopefully improve the quality of life for people very much like you. I'm just asking for a chance here.

    With Respect,

    Dave Weagle
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    It seems you're more upset with my acknowledgement that the dw-link is better than I could have come up with 'in house'. Just because some come up with thier 'own' stuff does not make it work or smart. I try to understand my limits, and after riding an early dw I knew where mine was. I don't know whether Alex would license or not, but I licensed the Horst link to start Turner bikes, and yes I still think the TNT was as good pedaling, and going down the steeps and rocks, better than my version of the HL/ICT.
    I am a frame designer and use the tools I need to get the job done. I am sorry your test ride was not more impressive, I would have liked to see how the bike was set up, but the reality is there is 20mm of travel between them so making the Spot cover the RFX was asking a bit much. The fork and bar were probably not as big as you are used to either. Obviously the new RFX would be more to your liking, but with the costs going up I am not counting on you for a sale.

    Industry standards. Everything you are riding right now was new at one time and a HUGE PITA to a group of riders. 1.125 headtubes, 73mm BB shells, disc brakes, click shifting, and going way back 135 spaced rear hubs. Sorry if I missed a couple. These were all new ideas forced upon the poor hard core riders that were just pedaling along not bothering anyone else. Then WHAM, the evil industry conspired to tear more money outa their pockets all in the name of PROFIT, bastids. Not performance. Nope, a fully rigid, friction shifting lugged steel mtb with one choice of tire tread are all we needed to be mountainbikers. So when I put 142 on the back and tapered compatible head tubes I am doing it to make more money? Am I doing it to push riders/customers aside? Nooo, I am doing it for the same reason that 130 rears went away, and 100 fronts are now XC only, and click shifting is easier to use and wider and eventually bigger BBs last longer and suspension is MORE FUN and wider bars offer more control and disc brakes allow all these things to stop better than anyone could have ever imagined. To make a better bike riding experience, and yes, you and a few others will be bummed. Stock pile 07-08 RFXs and ride on as they are certainly good, but my job like millions before me is to make my product better. It could be wagon wheels or weapons of stone and iron to kill my enemy with, or the air bag maker hoping less people are maimed in a car wreck, but this is about bicycles and I want to make better ones and that means changes.

    DT


    Double Dave respect. You guys are the real deal.

    Proud owner of:

    1 Pivot 429 (wife's XMAS present last year and performing flawlessy)
    1 Turner DW Spot (ridden 1 week and can't believe the difference between the Turner and Iron Horse handling) I guess DT must have designed something.
    1 Turner Sultan (I am going home and building tonight)
    3.5 Iron Horse DW's (1.5 mine, 2 the lovely wife's) My 2005 MKIII frame was recently replaced with the 5 spot.

    All of them were bought on sale except the Pivot.

    I guess I am just a Noob that does not know what good suspension feels like.
    ____________________

    Hate Costs Money

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    Interesting, because for me, what puts food on my table and clothes on my back has everything to do with biking. This point however, seems to be lost on you.

    You know that I am a living breathing person, right? I ride my bike and enjoy the trails just like you. I have a wife that I love, two dogs, and friends. For work, I used to have a 9-5 job where I developed military technology. It was a good and reasonably high paying job. At night, every night almost, I would come home and work on my dream of making bicycles. For YEARS, I spent almost all of my free time working on developing the ideas that became dw-link. My girlfriend (now wife) was very understanding and put up with the countless nights where I came out to meet everyone late because "Dave was working on his bike project". When the time came, I quit my job. I spent literally all of my savings on applying for patents to protect the ideas that I had come up with in hopes that I could apply them to bikes, make riding more fun, and live a life that few have the chance to. I made huge personal and financial sacrifices and took a massive chance to bring my idea (dw-link) to the world, and I'd like to think that there are people out there whose lives have improved in some small way because of it.

    When you say (and I quote) "FWIW, I welcome a homegrown DW knock-off that is not tied to license fee's and unjustified cost!", that just makes me shake my head.

    How would you feel if I suggested that someone wait for you outside your work and steal your paycheck when you walk out? It's no big deal, right? After all, its not like you worked or sacrificed anything for that paycheck, it should be shared with everyone for free! How about your bike or some other possession that you worked for? If a thief steals it, that's OK?

    Of course you don't feel that way. You worked for your life, possessions, and happiness.

    It's not going to end my world if you don't like me (although you've never met me, I'm a likeable guy!! heh) , my designs, or anything I'm involved in, but just know that I am here working 10+ hours a day in great part to hopefully improve the quality of life for people very much like you. I'm just asking for a chance here.

    With Respect,

    Dave Weagle
    Class act! Dave, thanks for sharing your story and passion. I look forward to my first DW bike.

  81. #81
    Amphibious Technologies
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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw
    How would you feel if I suggested that someone wait for you outside your work and steal your paycheck when you walk out? It's no big deal, right? After all, its not like you worked or sacrificed anything for that paycheck, it should be shared with everyone for free! How about your bike or some other possession that you worked for? If a thief steals it, that's OK?
    Well said DW. The issue with a few people is they do not and cannot understand what Intellectual Property ("IP") means. They fail to see that is just like any other physical property such a house, land, a car, a bike, etc.

    The inventor (you in this case) poured time, money, a lot of effort, sacrifice and knowledge to come up with your IP and should, by all means, reap the befits of your investment, sacrifices and knowledge. The problem arises with folks who may not have the intellect, knowledge and/or skills to come up with novel ideas themselves and end up wanting to avail of someone elses IP for free as they see no value in it because they don't know any better.
    "The best you've ridden is the best you know" - Paul Thede, Race Tech

  82. #82
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    Two points . . .

    1) DT and DW are very impressive people.

    2) Carbon Spot . . . I hope it's coming . . .

  83. #83
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Is there anything worth discussing as far as carbon-fiber is concerned and macro vs micro scales? Things such as carbon-weave and rigidity/strength when looking at something like an aircraft wing, and then carbon fiber as a material when looking at something like a pivot interface. dropout, in terms of it's strength, rigidity, and so on. It seems a lot of the previous carbon frames seem to do poorly on the micro-scale, and while carbon fiber SHOULD be a VERY stiff material to build with, you end up with quite a few "flexy" carbon fiber bikes.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  84. #84
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    All due rescpect

    To be honest I have not done the reasearch on Dave Weagle (as apposed to "DW"). Matter of fact I don't think I have ever typed the name Dave Weagle. That should tell something. I did not know the person before I knew the "life altering" product.

    On a personal note what you explained about someone moving in on your patent. I worked in the construction field installing handicap ramps for disabled vets. It was somewhat lucrative for me and I was finally on my own. It was also very rewarding because these guys/gals had been without mobility for so long. The were extremely happy and I was proud to be a part of that.

    Well a year went by and things were pretty good. I was making enough money to survive and put a little in the bank for a rainy day. Well, some good ole boy swooped right in and stole the contract. There was probably some politics involved that I'm not privy to. I was upset at first and lost a lot of faith in business as a whole. That's sad right?

    I chose not to look at it that way anymore. I had to make up my mind that this guy had the same needs as I did and he's merely doing what he needs to survive. The difference, and this was important, was that I had the ability to pick myself up and I knew I was strong enough and smart enough to do it. Maybe he didn't. The all-powerful works in mysterious ways. There is a purpose I believe and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I think you have been given a hell of a chance to succeed. No need to play on my emotions. You make a hell of a product according to a lot of people, I have yet to see it executed better than my "faux-bar".

    I got a lot of respect for what you've done and I say keep up the good work

    Take what I say for what it's worth, and we can ride bikes anytime
    Last edited by Mtn. Biker123; 12-01-2009 at 12:10 PM. Reason: errors what else?

  85. #85
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    Fiiiizzzooooo!!

    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder
    Is it alright if we put some on the World Champ's bike? Along with some 140mm rotors!?


  86. #86
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    You guys do realize that is not a production bike right. Nothing at all like except the appearance really. That there is a finely tuned race horse!

  87. #87
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    I think this thread, specifically DT's commitment to improvement, and DW's commitment to integrity, hard work, and entrepreneurialism, is what will make me spend on an RFX next season.

  88. #88
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    Not reading all the guff, but in summary am I a noob for riding a DW Spot? Just need to know where I am in the world of Mtn.Biker123

    No more Alpine riding for me. I need to go to the school of riding some skinnies and a few rocks. I'll forget the technical all day long Alpine decents (what with being a noob).

    I'm a sucker for marketing..... obviously..

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar
    I think this thread, specifically DT's commitment to improvement, and DW's commitment to integrity, hard work, and entrepreneurialism, is what will make me spend on an RFX next season.
    This thread has me convinced that DW's and DT's partnership could and should be the model for other small American builders.

    Bicycle suspension is now at a point where small builders won't be able to keep up with manufacturing, design, trends and suspension dynamics - all by themselves.

    Companies like Foes, Ventana and others would do well to partner with someone to develop fine tuned suspension designs, while retaining their own styles in manufacturing ,etc.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  90. #90
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    Put a DW sticker on this and I would be all over it

    <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
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    I got to try a mini link bike out 7inch and 7in wit Roco coil and Totems at RotoVegas recently, its taken me a week to recover, I lasted only a few shuttles and rode like a little girl but had fun all the same!

    Still I missed my TNT RFX in its SSS mode, I wondered what it would have been like, the mini link was not a Turner!

    2nd gen DW Turner and I'll be in I'm sure they will have settled in by then! I know where MTN is coming from, its personal pref, not a slap against the design or system! The bike IO rode was awesome but confirmed to me it was not for me!

    Now I have a Bruce Lee in the plan to kick the Chuck Corris in the arse, and Bruce is way better than Chuck!
    Though I am a big Chuck Norris fan and he can run Hammerschidt, where as Bruce Lee well hes a single ring badass!
    Last edited by trailadvent; 12-01-2009 at 08:54 PM.
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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    Helmet for your neck

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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibbs_
    Not reading all the guff, but in summary am I a noob for riding a DW Spot? Just need to know where I am in the world of Mtn.Biker123

    No more Alpine riding for me. I need to go to the school of riding some skinnies and a few rocks. I'll forget the technical all day long Alpine decents (what with being a noob).

    I'm a sucker for marketing..... obviously..
    I'm here man, where are you


  92. #92
    Bike to the Bone...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCUBAPRO
    Well said DW. The issue with a few people is they do not and cannot understand what Intellectual Property ("IP") means. They fail to see that is just like any other physical property such a house, land, a car, a bike, etc.

    The inventor (you in this case) poured time, money, a lot of effort, sacrifice and knowledge to come up with your IP and should, by all means, reap the befits of your investment, sacrifices and knowledge. The problem arises with folks who may not have the intellect, knowledge and/or skills to come up with novel ideas themselves and end up wanting to avail of someone elses IP for free as they see no value in it because they don't know any better.
    I just think that some people, think that because biking is a hobby for them, it should be for everyone.

    If a licence is unjustified, I pretty much doubt that either DT or CC or the IBIS guys would have decided to use it. They say a design which they thought would compliment their bikes, saw an advantage to using that vs building something new, and went for it.

    Research takes money, time and, when you're starting, a big gamble, so you should be able to cash on it. How much you can or can't charge would be dependent on what the market would pay. So, when DT decided to bring the DW link to their bikes, did someone willing to pay over $3k+ said.. "oh, now I can't buy the Spot/Flux because it's $5 bucks more expensive?" or even if it was $200 more expensive? At this level of price and performance, $200 isn't that big a deal braker as when comparing bikes around the $1k mark.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibbs_
    Not reading all the guff, but in summary am I a noob for riding a DW Spot? Just need to know where I am in the world of Mtn.Biker123
    Here's some help in figuring out where you are in the wacky world of MTB123:

    Quote Originally Posted by MTB_123
    So far the only thing that I have proven is that there are a bunch of uneducated men and women on MTBR. The core riders are all but gone from there. The place is a joke.

    So, I believe I was looking for something and actually uncovered something else. The market and MTBR has managed to dilute the sport with POSEURS and inferior products by emphasizing weight over performance. Of course anything that makes something "easier" (perceived) should be more expensive. They will continue to buy the light/expensive stuff because it's shiny. Meanwhile, you and I who've been around long enough and tested enough equipment to know what we want are kinda shut out. Can't find the stuff that just "works" anymore.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolling Shutter
    Here's some help in figuring out where you are in the wacky world of MTB123:

    If the shoe fits

  95. #95
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    4" fast 29er please...looking forward to it. Zero interest in knockoffs here.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    If the shoe fits
    Nice to see you're still going on about dw-link.

    Tell me, if you love your "old skool" Turners so much, then why are you on mtbr all day *****ing and moaning, and not out riding?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    Put a DW sticker on this and I would be all over it

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    "One often finds their destiny on the road taken to avoid it" - Master Ugway

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn. Biker123
    If the shoe fits
    Man, I'm sorry if we don't fit your definition of "core" riders. I guess I need to go huck off some drops with my crew and post pictures all over MTBR to be core enough to hang out on Empty Beer. Being someone who likes to talk about bikes and even sometimes ride them is not good enough. And heaven forbid if I have the means (both financial and business [i.e. work in a shop part-time]) to buy the latest in MTB gear if I want.

    I guess I don't know what is meant about not finding stuff that just "works" anymore. My '00 RFX (it started off life as the original 5" freeride bike) is decidedly non-bling and works great and didn't have any problem finding simple non-exotic parts for it. I hear Sherwood is blowing at El Terremotos if you are looking to try something different that isn't too exotic for your liking.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyN
    Nice to see you're still going on about dw-link.

    Tell me, if you love your "old skool" Turners so much, then why are you on mtbr all day *****ing and moaning, and not out riding?
    Man, when your right your right...

    I did not get anything accomplished today. Actually, I'm not looking forward to doing the conversion. You know how much I hate to get my hands dirty! So you guys provided a great distraction. Tomorrow is a new day


  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    4" fast 29er please...looking forward to it. Zero interest in knockoffs here.
    +1 on that. I'm racing a carbon Superfly 100 next season. The stiffness/acceleration/etc. is amazing. It would be an even better bike with a DW rear sus system like my Sultan (firmed up a bit, please) and DT handling (it's a bit quick-handling for my tastes).

    If it shows up, I'll have my order in quick.
    Whining is not a strategy.

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