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  1. #1
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    Jerk Chicken thinks Titus welds are weak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I want to see polished frames come from Titus Taiwan because the paint/pc hides flaws. You typically won't see many polished frames from Taiwan and China because paint covers the flaws in the welds and blemishes in the parts.

    Needless to say, I'm not keen on frames made in Asia by supposed boutique builders. It's hard for them to have to resources to have a guy stand there and make sure the factory manager isn't looking to cut corners. Welds are critical and good ones don't go well with cost cutting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    While I've seen many KHS bikes with poor fit and finish, but the owners got them at a bargain, and had the thoughts of "What did I expect for 199 from Jensun?"

    Fit and finish is not the whole gig. In your eyes, it's the paint and the application of the stickers. In my eyes it's the chemical combination of metals together using an electrical current and in these areas there could be flaws that you can't see. I have already seen certain differences in the welding of some Asian frames compared to American and European ones, such as a narrower bead width and rounder profiles. Compare to the Titus above (which my old Burner's welds resemble more than the Spot) and Nicolai, with those flat puddle welds and scrapping MANY frames for imperfections in welding and anodization.

    Please post opinions all in favor and all against here, not my TVT porno post.

    Long Live Long Rides

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    Please post opinions all in favor and all against here, not my TVT porno post.

    Aw, what a looser

    I think that the debate of Asia vs America bike quality will go on, and on, and on, and on.

    I agree that welding is more important than paint in a bike. By a lot, but I just don't know enough to judge (and I haven't seen a Taiwan-built Titus). As for your post title, mostly all Titus bikes are still built in house, just the Moto Lite (aluminium) is build by kinesis, and maybe the Super Moto.

  3. #3
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    Are the welds there to look good, or hold the frame together?

    Don't most manufacturers make a second pass just for aesthetics anyway?

    If people are genuinely interested in comparing apples to apples, the we should focus on alignment, which does affect ride quality but not aesthetics.

    maybe after that we could get into cable routing, CNC work, and eventually end up at suspension design with a few pie-charts & recumbents thrown in for good measure.

    Anyways, speaking from experience, both titus and turner make great bikes. As do many other cheaper brands. At some point we are all paying for that little bit extra, what that little bit is might be different from one brand to another, and of varying value to different users.

  4. #4
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    Strike a nerve? Amazing to see my opinions are so powerful (about bicycles, no less) to warrant a separate thread on my behalf.

    I am waving to you all like Miss America. Thanks for your support!

  5. #5
    "El Whatever"
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    Again... if aesthetics is a concern, he should be buying some other brand of bikes.

    The Titus ML are not bad welds by any stretch... and I think he's biased to Turner and his arguments are kind of weak.

    BTW... I want to express my respect for Turner bikes (and DT himself). But I think the arguments held by Jerk Chicken are a bit off. Titus frames are top-notch too (no matter where they come from).
    Check my Site

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I am waving to you all like Miss America. Thanks for your support!
    While you are "parade waving", we are "golf clapping" to show our appreciation for your attention!

    Oh yeah, welds.....aluminum is toughest (magnesium even tougher), ti kinda tough, and SS is easy and fun to weld, cuz when you're done it really does look like you melted it together!

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    Having had a nicolai, their welds are the best I have ever seen on a bike. Didn't ride half as well as my five spot though...

  8. #8
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    When will lugs be back in style? Henry James, baby!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosmo
    While you are "parade waving", we are "golf clapping" to show our appreciation for your attention!

    Oh yeah, welds.....aluminum is toughest (magnesium even tougher), ti kinda tough, and SS is easy and fun to weld, cuz when you're done it really does look like you melted it together!

    After talkng to a couple of the Titus welders, Al is one of the easiest to weld, not the toughest. Not sure about Magnesium because I have never talked to anyone that has done it. Steel is quite easy too.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzSpeedfreek
    After talkng to a couple of the Titus welders, Al is one of the easiest to weld, not the toughest. Not sure about Magnesium because I have never talked to anyone that has done it. Steel is quite easy too.
    If Al is "so easy" to weld, I urge you to try it. This comes from someone that has more than a couple years of welding under his belt.

    Anyone can weld, but only a few can weld right.

    Regardless, I am a consumer. I have certain criteria in mind for what I will put my money into and why. Some of the criteria are tangible. Others stem from just wanting to sit down and not worry about my bike. Others stem from an economic viewpoint. I am willing to pay extra for what some might not (like the OP) see fit, so they feel the need to ridicule.

    Have I ever had a Taiwanese "high end" frame? Yes. I didn't like it. Would I ever buy one again? I will look American or European first for MY OWN REASONS, then I will look elsewhere if I don't find anything that fits the bill.

    That said, I am a consumer, and I will not waver in my original statement and I am still doing my Miss America wave to the weenie that thought of my words important enough to start a thread about me

    Unfortunately, Jerk_Chicken is not so exciting in real life

  11. #11
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    If Al is "so easy" to weld, I urge you to try it. This comes from someone that has more than a couple years of welding under his belt.

    Anyone can weld, but only a few can weld right.

    Regardless, I am a consumer. I have certain criteria in mind for what I will put my money into and why. Some of the criteria are tangible. Others stem from just wanting to sit down and not worry about my bike. Others stem from an economic viewpoint. I am willing to pay extra for what some might not (like the OP) see fit, so they feel the need to ridicule.

    Have I ever had a Taiwanese "high end" frame? Yes. I didn't like it. Would I ever buy one again? I will look American or European first for MY OWN REASONS, then I will look elsewhere if I don't find anything that fits the bill.

    That said, I am a consumer, and I will not waver in my original statement and I am still doing my Miss America wave to the weenie that thought of my words important enough to start a thread about me

    Unfortunately, Jerk_Chicken is not so exciting in real life

    Was that in the third person,"funny". I've got a ML and the welds are BEUTIFUL, but mines US. made. Terrific bike.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken

    That said, I am a consumer, and I will not waver in my original statement and I am still doing my Miss America wave to the weenie that thought of my words important enough to start a thread about me

    Unfortunately, Jerk_Chicken is not so exciting in real life
    have you even seen a 2005 moto lite and a 2006? or is this just more I'm an a$$ hat and my chevy is better then your ford crap.

  13. #13
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    Homebrew, you've been drinking

    1. Who cares as long as the company sells only the straight ones and warranties the ones that break.
    2. Reality, welding is like skiing, the more you do the better you get. They build more bikes in Taiwan (sp?), than the U.S. An experienced bike welder in the U.S. has 500 to 600 frames welded. In Taiwan you probably weld a 1,000 triangles in your first year!

    Manufacturers pay higher fees for better welders. I'm not sure if I have seen any of the Chinese Titus bikes yet. My friends that ride Titus have bikes that are definitely American by virtue of the bike's age. But Santa Cruz and Specialize have many bikes that are welded just fine. (Although, Specialize has had the worst colors on their frames for years. God, their bikes are ugly!

    Dave's bikes are welded beautifully, but more importantly designed beautifully and supported in an excellent manner.

    Judging by the number of people who recommended a horst linkage to the guy who was going to get a Five Spot two weeks ago, Dave may have other problems. It doesn't matter if the new 'TNT' bikes ride better than the old 'HL' bikes. If people don't buy them, Supergo is going to be selling all models.

    Fortunately, Dave is a righteous guy who has a ton of good Kharma slinging to his hip. A Turner 'D.W.' frame may solve the Iron Horse problem of those 'lousy' Taiwanese welders. Actually a 'D.W.' design with zerc bushings would be very sweet.

    Personally, I'm going to ride my Burner into this century.

    Cheers,

    Kane



    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    Please post opinions all in favor and all against here, not my TVT porno post.


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    If Al is "so easy" to weld, I urge you to try it. This comes from someone that has more than a couple years of welding under his belt.

    I havent welded anything in over 10 years and then it was only something small and not done often, so I think all welding is tough. Having said that, I do remember reading an interview of Chris Cocalis from Titus where he said his welders get bored from welding too much aluminum. That AL was much easier to weld than titanium. I imagine they weld quite a few bike frames each year. So again while not saying I have done it personally, I have heard the same thing that AzSpeedfreek was mentioning.

    Having said that I dont want to get you ruffled, just posting that I have heard similar info that agrees with another poster.

    As to the actual topic at hand, I personally dont give a shite how the welds on my frame look. As long as the frame is aligned properly and doesnt fall apart. I never did understand the "oooh look at the stack of dimes! Ahhhh" weld comments. I understand it takes skill (and I dont have it) but I thought the point was make sure the welds were strong, not pretty...
    Last edited by CDtofer; 01-19-2006 at 04:55 AM. Reason: clarification

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zkampyman
    1. Who cares as long as the company sells only the straight ones and warranties the ones that break.
    2. Reality, welding is like skiing, the more you do the better you get. They build more bikes in Taiwan (sp?), than the U.S. An experienced bike welder in the U.S. has 500 to 600 frames welded. In Taiwan you probably weld a 1,000 triangles in your first year!

    Manufacturers pay higher fees for better welders. I'm not sure if I have seen any of the Chinese Titus bikes yet. My friends that ride Titus have bikes that are definitely American by virtue of the bike's age. But Santa Cruz and Specialize have many bikes that are welded just fine. (Although, Specialize has had the worst colors on their frames for years. God, their bikes are ugly!

    Dave's bikes are welded beautifully, but more importantly designed beautifully and supported in an excellent manner.

    Judging by the number of people who recommended a horst linkage to the guy who was going to get a Five Spot two weeks ago, Dave may have other problems. It doesn't matter if the new 'TNT' bikes ride better than the old 'HL' bikes. If people don't buy them, Supergo is going to be selling all models.

    Fortunately, Dave is a righteous guy who has a ton of good Kharma slinging to his hip. A Turner 'D.W.' frame may solve the Iron Horse problem of those 'lousy' Taiwanese welders. Actually a 'D.W.' design with zerc bushings would be very sweet.

    Personally, I'm going to ride my Burner into this century.

    Cheers,

    Kane
    Kane, you brought up some great discussion directions here.

    David definitely has some good vibes around him coming from customers, dealers, and industry peers alike.

    As far as buying another bike is concerned, I think my feelings are echoed by many here:

    A Turner will always be my first choice when searching for another bike. If there isn't something to fit the bill, I will look elsewhere. Why? There is a combination of many things that make up a Turner.

    Thoughtful design through evolution. I'm sure David has learned a thing or two in the years he's been tweaking one basic frame design. I'm sure he knows where to add more material to the tubes and where to remove it.

    Bushings are a neat and very functional feature. I have looked at other bikes that look great, but then I step back and see they don't have the bushings. The rocker plates angle inward. Expensive, but very functional. The side loads on the shock are reduced and the spacers last years, as opposed to months.

    The ride and geo, TNT or not, we all know David is committed to making a bike that rides a certain way.

    The non-nonsense customer service without tricks up anyone's sleeve. Call or email and someone from Turner will take care of you. No doubt they are under a lot of pressure, but it's good to see they do as much to keep you happy after the sale as they do to get you to be a Turner owner.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    blah blah...I'm a major homer...blah blah blah

    Man, you're right, it does matter who builds the frame. I made a big mistake. I should have bought an Ellsworth. At least they build their own frames.

    Anyone want to buy a 5 Spot?
    Long Live Long Rides

  17. #17
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    Turners are made by a pothead holding a torch in Portland...

    Laugh. I think Homebrow is yanking some chains. Funny...

    Jaybo

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    Alright everyone...Gun to you head....RIGHT NOW!

    1. Why do you think bike companies including Trek, SC, Titus, even the "king" Ernesto Colnago, moved some of their operations to Taiwan....for better cost or better workmanship?

    2. You have one choice...direct answers only....your next high end frame, all things being equal...would you rather buy American/European or are you buying Taiwanese?

    3. Would you rather buy a frame from a smaller operation or from a huge factory?

    The purpose of this excersise is not to disparage Taiwanese frames. Its to point out that the argument that there's no difference between the two doesnt hold much water.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    Alright everyone...Gun to you head....RIGHT NOW!

    1. Why do you think bike companies including Trek, SC, Titus, even the "king" Ernesto Colnago, moved some of their operations to Taiwan....for better cost or better workmanship?

    2. You have one choice...direct answers only....your next high end frame, all things being equal...would you rather buy American/European or are you buying Taiwanese?

    3. Would you rather buy a frame from a smaller operation or from a huge factory?

    The purpose of this excersise is not to disparage Taiwanese frames. Its to point out that the argument that there's no difference between the two doesnt hold much water.
    Ok....
    1. Both.... better cost is one of the reasons, but if those companies trust Taiwanese plants, it means something. Sooner or later, the bike industry will be the same as cars.... compare a Toyota and a Chrysler in service fees, downtime, etc.. So you'll get cheap labor, so? regarding quality, it just depends on what you pay for and que QC procedures.

    2. I would buy whatever I like, I don't care where they're built.

    3. Probably a bigger company has better warranty. Other than that, as long as the bike is well designed.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rzozaya1969
    Ok....
    1. Both.... better cost is one of the reasons, but if those companies trust Taiwanese plants, it means something. Sooner or later, the bike industry will be the same as cars.... compare a Toyota and a Chrysler in service fees, downtime, etc.. So you'll get cheap labor, so? regarding quality, it just depends on what you pay for and que QC procedures.

    2. I would buy whatever I like, I don't care where they're built.

    3. Probably a bigger company has better warranty. Other than that, as long as the bike is well designed.
    The question was posed explicitly, it was answered with conditions.

    Yes or no, the question should be answered as Speedthrills posed it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    The question was posed explicitly, it was answered with conditions.

    Yes or no, the question should be answered as Speedthrills posed it.
    there's no black & white here.

  22. #22
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    So I see you would buy a US made frame over an Asian one, ALL things being equal.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    Alright everyone...Gun to you head....RIGHT NOW!

    1. Why do you think bike companies including Trek, SC, Titus, even the "king" Ernesto Colnago, moved some of their operations to Taiwan....for better cost or better workmanship?

    2. You have one choice...direct answers only....your next high end frame, all things being equal...would you rather buy American/European or are you buying Taiwanese?

    3. Would you rather buy a frame from a smaller operation or from a huge factory?

    The purpose of this excersise is not to disparage Taiwanese frames. Its to point out that the argument that there's no difference between the two doesnt hold much water.
    The biggest reason for bike companies outsourcing is production capacity. Titus, SC and others can't meet customer demand if they produced in the US. Or if they tooled up and hired enough people to do this, the frames would have to be astronomically priced to get a decent ROI.

    What's the quality difference between a Titus or Santa Cruz outsourced to Kinesis in Portland vs. Kinesis in Taiwan? If you're talking about welding/manufacturing, what you should be arguing about is SAPA vs. Kinesis not Turner vs. Titus. If you want to get into design, then you can talk about the bike companies.

    Why doesn't anyone complain about Fox making all their shocks and forks in Taiwan? Or Easton's carbon bars made in Taiwan? Or where were your tires made or where were your SRAM components made? Do they suck? Should we boycott them because they put US workers out of a job?

    Titus Tai MotoLite and Turner 5 Spot are not the same. Titus Tai MotoLite cost hundreds less and works great. But Titus also make ultra-premium custom Ti frames. Just because they don't make a 5" travel aluminum bike made in the US doesn't mean they are inferior. Personally, I think Titus has a better design. I've had the Hammerhead for almost 4 years. I've only changed the bearings/bushing once and never had a lick of trouble. The Titus pivots are beefier and their welds look better (at least on my Arizona made frame). If the MotoLite fit me, I would have probably bought one. And when I hit the Powerball, I'm getting a custom Ti MotoLite.

    Also, you really can't just do a Titus to Turner comparison anyway. You would have to take it on a case by case basis as to which frame is better for your needs. I mean, I would rather have a Racer-X than a Flux, 5 Spot over MotoLite (only because of tit), and a RFX over the SuperMoto.

    And at least Titus is a manufacturer. So there homers, take that...
    Long Live Long Rides

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    So I see you would buy a US made frame over an Asian one, ALL things being equal.
    But they aren't equal. The taiwanese frame costs 25% less.
    Long Live Long Rides

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    So I see you would buy a US made frame over an Asian one, ALL things being equal.
    I think it's hard to make 2 things completely equal. If you would mean, a Portland-made Moto Lite vs a Taiwan-made Moto Lite? Probably, but even then, the new design accept a wider rear tire, so maybe I would choose one, and then, not all things are equal.

    To be fair, I'm mexican, so I don't have any concerns for national-feelings.

  26. #26
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    Dunno about the welds, but this whole thread is weak.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Dunno about the welds, but this whole thread is weak.
    Absolutely, though I got to showboat my Miss America wave

  28. #28
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    Someone's just going to have to conduct a comparo of the foreign- and domestic-built comparo Titus frames. That's the only way to really settle the matter.

    I wouldn't be thrilled if DT moved his framebuilding to China, but I also remember when "Made in Japan" meant strictly cheapo quality. Things change. China has come a long way in the last 10 years and who knows what the next 5-10 will bring. I suspect quality will approach quantity as an important criterion of Chinese manufacturing.

    Still, I do love to see "made in USA" on my stuff. There's nothing wrong with a bit of pride.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    Alright everyone...Gun to you head....RIGHT NOW!

    1. Why do you think bike companies including Trek, SC, Titus, even the "king" Ernesto Colnago, moved some of their operations to Taiwan....for better cost or better workmanship?
    For better cost for same or similar workmanship.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    2. You have one choice...direct answers only....your next high end frame, all things being equal...would you rather buy American/European or are you buying Taiwanese?
    Even price? American. Real world, cheaper (read, Titus Tai ML).

    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    3. Would you rather buy a frame from a smaller operation or from a huge factory?
    Depends on value (warranty, CS, performance, price)... Titus ML is probably the best value around... All things being equal, the smaller builder.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedThrills
    The purpose of this excersise is not to disparage Taiwanese frames. Its to point out that the argument that there's no difference between the two doesnt hold much water.
    Problem is that when you have a Taiwan made frame, sold by a small company who adds value (Titus), you can't see the point on buying a more expensive frame no matter where it's made.
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  30. #30
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    Good job! Tscheezy...

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Dunno about the welds, but this whole thread is weak.

    ...hit the nail on the head!
    If I wanted your opinion I'd give it to you

  31. #31
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    This about asia vs america is like beating on the zombie horse... it will keep on , and on, and on......

  32. #32
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    I nominate this thread to the "most useless thread of the week" category.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  33. #33
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    A Turner homer offends a Titus homer. Anarchy, I tell you, complete anarchy.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    A Turner homer offends a Titus homer. Anarchy, I tell you, complete anarchy.
    I am a Titus fan but I'm riding a 5 Spot and really like that too. The Jerk may disagree but I think they are all good. Can't we all just get along? We all need a big group hug or at least a group ride.


    Anarchy in the U.K.
    Anarchy in the U.S.A.
    Iyyyyyee wannnnaaaa beeeeee anarchyeeeeeee.
    Long Live Long Rides

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74
    Thought you had better taste than that, Homebrew
    Those Titus homers aren't quite as far along on Mazlo's hierarchy, so you'll have to be patient with them.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    I am a Titus fan but I'm riding a 5 Spot and really like that too. The Jerk may disagree but I think they are all good. Can't we all just get along? We all need a big group hug or at least a group ride.


    Anarchy in the U.K.
    Anarchy in the U.S.A.
    Iyyyyyee wannnnaaaa beeeeee anarchyeeeeeee.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "Anarchy in the USA" a crappy Guns & Roses cover version

    Thought you had better taste than that, Homebrew

    -TR
    Registered Dietitian, Cycling Coach, Ascend Nutrition and Coaching

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  37. #37
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "Anarchy in the USA" a crappy Guns & Roses cover version

    Thought you had better taste than that, Homebrew

    -TR
    No... it's original from the Sex pistols and Megadeth's (crappy) cover....
    Check my Site

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg
    I nominate this thread to the "most useless thread of the week" category.
    I'm just happy to be at the end of it.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    No... it's original from the Sex pistols and Megadeth's (crappy) cover....

    I don't know. I was never a big fan of the Sex Pistols. They were too cliché. Now Black Flag on the other hand...

    gimmie, gimme, gimme
    gimme some more
    gimme, gimme, gimme
    don't ask what for
    Long Live Long Rides

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    No... it's original from the Sex pistols and Megadeth's (crappy) cover....
    Oh yeah, Megadeth- knew it was some crappy band.
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  41. #41
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    I don't know. I was never a big fan of the Sex Pistols. They were too cliché. Now Black Flag on the other hand...

    gimmie, gimme, gimme
    gimme some more
    gimme, gimme, gimme
    don't ask what for
    Standin' here like a loaded gun
    Waitin' to go off...

    Still looking for a decent copy of Who's Got The 10 1/2 (live)- had it on cassette in middle school, long gone sadly.
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  42. #42
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74
    Oh yeah, Megadeth- knew it was some crappy band.
    eeeeeezzzzeeeeee!!!!

    Megadeth is (was?) a great band! They just happened to release crappy songs from time to time like any other band. That cover is just pathetic.

    I'm a Megadeth fan, but I just hate that song in particular.
    Check my Site

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp2003
    eeeeeezzzzeeeeee!!!!

    Megadeth is (was?) a great band! They just happened to release crappy songs from time to time like any other band. That cover is just pathetic.

    I'm a Megadeth fan, but I just hate that song in particular.
    Megadeth wanted to be Slayer, but Dave Mustaine doesn't have the balls

    Just yankin' yer chain.
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  44. #44
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    I'm still waving...

  45. #45
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74
    Megadeth wanted to be Slayer, but Dave Mustaine doesn't have the balls

    Just yankin' yer chain.
    Slayer... how can you understand anything they play?

    Nah, seriously... I love both bands. I was more into glam (wuss me) back them. I still love Metallica, Megadeth, Sepultura and Pantera (Dimebag era).

    I just don't have the balls anymore to cranks the amp up to 11.

    Jerk Chicken... when will you start doing the swimsuit walk... we're waiting for that! It's the best part!
    Check my Site

  46. #46
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    Ooooo...I'm in a swimsuit now (made in the US, of course) bending over to pick up an AMERICAN quarter.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Strike a nerve? Amazing to see my opinions are so powerful (about bicycles, no less) to warrant a separate thread on my behalf.

    I am waving to you all like Miss America. Thanks for your support!
    jerk_chicken, i have always respected you in this forum and regarded every post of yours as good material. But the welds IMO dont really matter, whats matters is how well the bike rides.

  48. #48
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    bike frames are held together by welds. I don't point this out for aesthetics

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    bike frames are held together by welds. I don't point this out for aesthetics
    i am aware of that, but i would'nt say one bike is not as good as the other jsut because the welds dont look up to standard.

  50. #50
    Do It Yourself
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Ooooo...I'm in a swimsuit now...bending over

    Is that what that monkey is pointing at?
    Long Live Long Rides

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobflyer
    i am aware of that, but i would'nt say one bike is not as good as the other jsut because the welds dont look up to standard.
    Sorry to say Bob, if that is what you're thinking is, we can't have a discussion because now your case would be that only the design, tubes, and geometry make a bike and any joe schmoe can assemble them.

    You get what you pay for and I'm not going to pay1,000+ for a frame that will fall apart soon after.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    You get what you pay for and I'm not going to pay1,000+ for a frame that will fall apart soon after.
    I'm not a Specialized fan, but how many of their S-Works frames are falling apart at the welds?

    Weld penetration is what's important for structural integrity, not appearance. I'm not convinced the two are necessarily related.

    Ventana has the prettiest welds I've ever seen (for aluminum), but Turner's welds (and high-end Taiwanese welds as well) aren't ugly or anything.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Sorry to say Bob, if that is what you're thinking is, we can't have a discussion because now your case would be that only the design, tubes, and geometry make a bike and any joe schmoe can assemble them.

    You get what you pay for and I'm not going to pay1,000+ for a frame that will fall apart soon after.

    ok then, i shall stop being so negative. The debate of america vs asia can go on forever. what we have to look at is the advantages. In america, frames generally cost more to build. In asia, it is cheaper. The advantage is a sense of security that american frames give you but ont asian. That is what i feel.

    P.S. JC i don mean any harm, just my 2 cents worth.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobflyer
    ok then, i shall stop being so negative. The debate of america vs asia can go on forever. what we have to look at is the advantages. In america, frames generally cost more to build. In asia, it is cheaper. The advantage is a sense of security that american frames give you but ont asian. That is what i feel.

    P.S. JC i don mean any harm, just my 2 cents worth.
    Nope, no harm take, Bob. This is a debate and people are welcome to bring their sides to the table. I have my side, I won't budge on it from what I know and others are threatened by it, and you see this thread a result The thread that won't die or get recycled.

  55. #55
    ~Disc~Golf~
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    Are the welds still weak?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  56. #56
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    Holy Resurrected Thread, Batman!
    Who's in charge, the thinker or the thought?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcguy View Post
    Holy Resurrected Thread, Batman!
    Yes, that is the game the crowd is playing now. Threads long gone are being brought back for some stupid reason.
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  58. #58
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    Interesting read

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