Highline main pivot placement- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    AW_
    AW_ is offline
    locked - time out
    Reputation: AW_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,443

    Highline main pivot placement

    I have to admit, the blowout pricing on the Highline caught my attention. In the end, I decided that I'm not going to get one, but you can't blame me for looking.

    Anyways the one thing I noticed, is the main pivot is forward of the BB. I'm curious if anyone can tell me how it compares to a low, rearward pivot, like the DHR.

    I've ridden high-forward single pivots like the Bullit and personally I do not like the way they feel AT ALL. I've been really happy with low-rearward main pivots like my DHR, Bottlerocket, other bikes I have owned in the past, etc.

    So, how does the Highline fit in? The pivot is fairly low (relative to chainring) but most definitely it is noticably further forward than my other bikes. I haven't ridden anything with a pivot in that location, so it intrigues me.

    Also I just glanced at the new DHR again... and it looks like the pivot might have moved forward a bit from the 06? I didn't look close and can't remember exactly where the 06 pivot is... did it move? Or am I imagining things.

  2. #2
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    30,804
    Bikes like the highline will be more optimal in certain gear combos, so that's important to consider. The HL also has a fairly low pivot compared to things like the bullit and others, so while it's a little forward and above, it's not all that much more forward or above, which I'd imagine is to minimize a lot of the tendancies that you have with bikes like the bullit. The highline is going to have that "optimal" gear setup, so putting a 44t ring or just a 26t ring would probably make it pretty funky, it should be clear in the setup photos on this site what is fairly optimal. The axle path arcs a little more when you have the pivot a little higher and more forward, which some people say helps with big bumps (it's that "rearward" thing, but axles don't really travel rearward, it's still an arc, even a VPP is mostly an arc, although the arc changes slightly).

    You may just be over reacting a little, due to it not really being all that high or forward.

    What you obviously don't want is a bike with poor traits that has a large amount of suspension stiffening when you pedal, because then you try to pedal through a rock garden or up a technical climb and it's either harsh or you lose traction. Again, I don't think the HL pivot looks anywhere near what is necessary for that to hapen.

    The HL also is a linkage-controled bike, so it also has that going for it, which will result in different suspension characteristics.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  3. #3
    ~~~~~~~~
    Reputation: airwreck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,874
    different horses for different courses for sure, best left to DT to explain (which he has done buried in this forum somewhere)...

    The DHR handles the highspeeds better, the HL responds to pedaling better/differently and is easier to toss around. Has alot to do with riding style and trail conditions too.

    They are both good fun.

  4. #4
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,444
    I think the main pivot has to be well in front of all chainrings & BB before you see the bad traits as exhibited on santa-cruz style single pivot bikes

    7" Highline actually feels a lot lke a bottlerocket on steroids to me

    Last edited by FM; 07-29-2008 at 02:43 PM.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by FM


    7" Highline actually feels a lot lke a bottlerocket on steroids to me

    Totally agree.. I've owned both bikes.

    Maybe it's just psychosomatic, but I swear the highline pedals even better than the B-rocket.

    More than that though it is substantially more plush in the chunder-ness

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Kevin G's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1,236
    AW, very good discussion you bring up. I'm moving off of Cannondales (Prophet and Judge) and am hoping that the Highline (and hopefully future Turners) has a better performing suspension; it's one of the main reasons I've switched brands. DT's background (and naturally riders' comments) leads me to believe that he knows how to design bikes; more specifically optimal suspension for each type of ride. If this is truly the case, I may reward him through a quiver of FR, DH, and XC frame purchases.

  7. #7
    AW_
    AW_ is offline
    locked - time out
    Reputation: AW_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,443
    Thanks for the replies. I tried searching but couldn't find a suitable answer. I don't even need a chart or a graph, just curious why DT decided to put it there and not behind the bb? I needs me some details!

    I was actually considering swapping my Bottlerocket for the HL. The geometry on the HL is close to what I want, but not quite. If it was ~1 degree slacker HA and 1/4" lower bb, I would probably have one on the way. But I realize that kind of geometry doesn't work for everyone - this is not criticism of the design by any means!

  8. #8
    ~~~~~~~~
    Reputation: airwreck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,874
    to slacken the HT and lower the BB you could run a 8 inch fork with a zero stack headset, or get a custom rear shock with a slightly shorter i2i.

    Have you read through this thread?
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=143032

  9. #9
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,444
    Quote Originally Posted by AW_
    I was actually considering swapping my Bottlerocket for the HL. The geometry on the HL is close to what I want, but not quite. If it was ~1 degree slacker HA and 1/4" lower bb, I would probably have one on the way.
    No offense but you really ought to ride one rather than look so much at the numbers.

    Any MFG's geometry depends totally on the build. My md. highline with an FSA headset, 2.5's and 66rc2x was an inch shorter in wheelbase than Turner claims (45 vs. 46"), and the BB was 1/4" lower at just over 14". Additionally, the BB feels WAY lower than the numbers suggest due to the length of the wheelbase. I like lower BB's, but I wouldn't want it lower, as it was I was knocking my bashring on rock rollers. With the extra sag and wheelbase, this bike feels a lot lower than a 6" bike with the same BB height.

    Now with a king headset and 203mm 888rc2x, my BB is 14.5". Haven't checked the wheelbase or headangle- longer and slacker obviously. Still feels looooooooow.......

    tires, headset and fork can +/- nearly up to an inch to your BB. Travel, sag and wheelbase can all make a bike feel higher or lower without changing the static BB height.

    Screw the charts, only a test ride tells the truth!

  10. #10
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,444
    Oh yeah, don't forget you could run a 7.875x2" shock to get a 6" of travel, and BB under 14". I had tire buzz with a 2.25", but a 2.0 would be fine. although I liked the 8.5" set-up best of all I've tried.

  11. #11
    AW_
    AW_ is offline
    locked - time out
    Reputation: AW_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,443
    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    No offense but you really ought to ride one rather than look so much at the numbers.

    Any MFG's geometry depends totally on the build. My md. highline with an FSA headset, 2.5's and 66rc2x was an inch shorter in wheelbase than Turner claims (45 vs. 46"), and the BB was 1/4" lower at just over 14". Additionally, the BB feels WAY lower than the numbers suggest due to the length of the wheelbase. I like lower BB's, but I wouldn't want it lower, as it was I was knocking my bashring on rock rollers. With the extra sag and wheelbase, this bike feels a lot lower than a 6" bike with the same BB height.

    Now with a king headset and 203mm 888rc2x, my BB is 14.5". Haven't checked the wheelbase or headangle- longer and slacker obviously. Still feels looooooooow.......

    tires, headset and fork can +/- nearly up to an inch to your BB. Travel, sag and wheelbase can all make a bike feel higher or lower without changing the static BB height.

    Screw the charts, only a test ride tells the truth!
    No offense taken. Dang. The numbers you provide sound much nicer. What year 888 was that, and where did you have it positioned in the crowns?

    I want slack and low.

  12. #12
    AW_
    AW_ is offline
    locked - time out
    Reputation: AW_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,443
    Quote Originally Posted by airwreck
    to slacken the HT and lower the BB you could run a 8 inch fork with a zero stack headset, or get a custom rear shock with a slightly shorter i2i.

    Have you read through this thread?
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=143032
    Thanks, I will take a look.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Kevin G's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1,236
    Slack and low - why not the DHR then? I wouldn't choose the HL if I wanted a slack and low bike.

    And I agree with FM about number obsessing; am guilty of it myself!

    On that note, what does the 7.875x2 do to the geometry (i.e. HA, BB)?

  14. #14
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,444
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin G
    On that note, what does the 7.875x2 do to the geometry (i.e. HA, BB)?
    Here and here are some info

    AW, it's a 2006 888rc2x which came stock with flat crowns. lower crown is 8" above the seals, and the king headset is pretty tall stack height. I measured the wheelbase at 45.5", so I'm not sure where turner gets 46". Not sure on the head angle but it should be around 65.5. Running big 2.5 DH tires.

  15. #15
    AW_
    AW_ is offline
    locked - time out
    Reputation: AW_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,443
    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Here and here are some info

    AW, it's a 2006 888rc2x which came stock with flat crowns. lower crown is 8" above the seals, and the king headset is pretty tall stack height. I measured the wheelbase at 45.5", so I'm not sure where turner gets 46". Not sure on the head angle but it should be around 65.5. Running big 2.5 DH tires.
    Thanks for all the info!

  16. #16
    ~~~~~~~~
    Reputation: airwreck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,874
    hey, let's hear what DT had to say.

    noticed this too when I was looking at the 06 catalog.

    "Six years ago, Turner introduced the DHR. Our hard-core downhill race machine earned instant respect on the NORBA and World Cup circuits. Key among the DHR’s features was a solid, non-floating disk brake mount and no pivots on the dropout. Racers praised the DHR’s rock-steady chassis. Pedal energy transfer was instantaneous. Applying the DHR’s rear brake stabilized the bike by countering fork dive with a rear suspension that reduced forward pitch. After years of success with this system, David applied key design elements from the DHR to the cross-country frames in this year’s Turner line. The result: the most stable and best-handling suspension frames we’ve ever developed.
    As David sees it, there are five demons that can ruin suspension performance: chain-torque induced suspension lockout,
    brake jack, pivot wear, unreliability and complexity. Countless hours of R&D and relentless testing confirm what David has known for years—the function of any suspension design depends on how the rear axle moves in relation to the bicycle’s drivetrain. If a suspension system isn’t tuned and designed with each bike’s purpose in mind, torque forces from braking, pedaling and shock compression and rebound can ruin chassis dynamics and handling. A well-designed frame forms a seamless connection between the rider and the ground beneath him. Great bike frames do their job transparently without forcing you to learn and compensate for their idiosyncrasies. At Turner, we simply make great frames. One ride and you’ll see what Turner owners have been saying for over eleven years."

  17. #17
    Build More = Ride More
    Reputation: YoPawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1,442
    Quote Originally Posted by AW_
    I have to admit, the blowout pricing on the Highline caught my attention. In the end, I decided that I'm not going to get one, but you can't blame me for looking.

    Anyways the one thing I noticed, is the main pivot is forward of the BB. I'm curious if anyone can tell me how it compares to a low, rearward pivot, like the DHR.

    I've ridden high-forward single pivots like the Bullit and personally I do not like the way they feel AT ALL. I've been really happy with low-rearward main pivots like my DHR, Bottlerocket, other bikes I have owned in the past, etc.

    So, how does the Highline fit in? The pivot is fairly low (relative to chainring) but most definitely it is noticably further forward than my other bikes. I haven't ridden anything with a pivot in that location, so it intrigues me.

    Also I just glanced at the new DHR again... and it looks like the pivot might have moved forward a bit from the 06? I didn't look close and can't remember exactly where the 06 pivot is... did it move? Or am I imagining things.

    Honestly, I think the companies making lower + back main pivots like Transition are only doing so for simplicity sake. Compare the BB area of a Highline to a BottleRocket. The BottleRocket is much more simple and likely many times cheaper to build. It also makes it easy to design around front derailleurs and chain guides with the pivot out of the way.

    The Highline uses an 83mm BB for more clearance along with relatively more complex CNC work to maintain stiffness.

    Having personally owned MANY single pivots like Transitions, I find the Highline to ride very similarly, but a bit better in all categories of pedaling efficiency, braking stability, bump absorbtion.

    The way I look at it, the pivot on the Highline is about as far up and forward you can get without noticing any negative effects.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.