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  1. #1
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    Formula Brakes - 160mm vs 180mm...

    First off, I was hoping to take the Spot out for the Moab weekend, doesn't look like it will happen. My youngest daughter turns 7 on 29th. I tried to convince (bribe) her to postpone one week, seems like even a slight delay in turning 7 is unacceptable!

    Anyway I'm looking to upgrade to the new Formula Oro's & have a dilema, should I go with 180mm or 160mm up front? Icurrently run Mono Minis with 160's, the fronts are definitely too weak. I've heard the Formula 160's are substantially more powerful than the Hope's - does anyone have experience with the Formula's?

    Second dilema, are the Puro's worth the extra $$$ compared to the K24's?

  2. #2
    MK_
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilmoose
    First off, I was hoping to take the Spot out for the Moab weekend, doesn't look like it will happen. My youngest daughter turns 7 on 29th. I tried to convince (bribe) her to postpone one week, seems like even a slight delay in turning 7 is unacceptable!

    Anyway I'm looking to upgrade to the new Formula Oro's & have a dilema, should I go with 180mm or 160mm up front? Icurrently run Mono Minis with 160's, the fronts are definitely too weak. I've heard the Formula 160's are substantially more powerful than the Hope's - does anyone have experience with the Formula's?

    Second dilema, are the Puro's worth the extra $$$ compared to the K24's?
    D-Line should shed more light, for the time being here are a few things to chew on. First, saying that Monos are weak is hit or miss, because it seems the setup is 99% of success with these. I have never been able to get them to perform well, but I have felt some which felt very nice (I'm excluding Darren's setup). Same goes for M4s. In my opinion Hopes don't modulate the best, their power can be pretty good, however. Going with 180 vs 160 on any bike aside from a racing rig is a smart thing to do in my opinion. You don't gain a whole lot of power, from experience, which was surprising, but you do gain modulation and fade resistance (heat dissipation).

    Are Formulas better than Minis? I have no idea. Haven't put my hands on a set of Formulas before. They have been developed with the help of Avid guys, so they share similarities with Juicys. Which similarities? I have no idea. I hope they modulate better than Juicys, though.

    Are Puros worth the $$$ vs K24s? That depends on how much weight and bling matters to you. Performance wise, they are said to be identical.

    _MK

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  3. #3
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    Wink

    I had on my previous bike a pair of Juicy 7, 180mm both front and rear and now have a pair of Formula 24k on my current one, 180mm front and 160 rear and was just helping a friend of mine to build a Stumpy and installed a pair of Hope Mono Mini (180 front and 160 rear). I have had the chance of riding my friend's bike (under demanding conditions) and so, I'd say that I have a better idea about all of them.

    Definitely, I'd recommend the Formulas Oro (but not sure if saving 30 grams or so if going over the Puro's rather than the 24k, is worth the extra bucks). Regarding stopping power, the Puro's have an edge over the Avids, and both of them have more power than Minis. Talking about modulation, the best ones are the Formula, by far, followed by the Mono and then the Avids.

    By the way, I'd say that the stopping power from a 160mm Formula in the front wheel would be enough for most of people doing AM (wouldn't say the same thing about the Minis), but the 180mm on front doesn't hurt at all and weight penalty is so low that I can't see going with 160's, even for some weightweenies. You'll have a little more stopping power and better modulation, but even most important, you'll minimize the chances of brake fading and overheating.

    Hope it helps.

  4. #4
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    I build my bikes a little more towards the FR end when it comes to brakes, I just like to slow down during hair raising descents. I always run a 200mm up front and lately a 180mm in the rear. I tried a set of Mono mini's and at first I a 180mm, 160mm setup, well to say the least I hated them. Cooked them at Brian Head on a 33 pound trailbike. Next a simular set in the M4 brakes though I started out with a 200mm in the front, cooked them at Mammoth, and I mean cooked, blue rotors. Ended up with a 180mm in the rear but I still wasnt happy. I did like them for most riding, pretty light, lots of trick goodies.
    Im now on a set of Puro's, used them the first time several weeks ago at Mammoth, hardly a squeal and stopped great. More power and modulation out of the box and right off the top of Mammoth-I could feel the power of these brakes. Im using a 200mm up front and a 180mm in the rear. I installed the K24's on the wifes bike and to save weight I used a 180mm front and a 160mm in the rear. Well, she cooked the rear and it squealed quite a bit. Im going to up the size to a 180mm in the rear to see if this helps. I think its mainly just because the smaller rotor heats up so fast and once this happens the pads and maybe the rotor are finished. I dont know if the cost is really worth the difference. Performance is the same, more of a chi-chi thing really with the different braided brake line, carbon levers and ti bolts. The K24's feel just like the Puro's. The Puro's look great and are truely one of the lightest brakes out there.
    I had Juicey 5's on her bike first and didnt care much for them. The K24's are a better performing brake all around. Dont know about the 7's, just afraid to try them. I will try a set of Codes sometime but now were talking almost 600g's for each brake.

  5. #5
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    180mm over 160mm

    For a Spot 180mm would be solid. I just installed a set of k24's on an a new bike. Its a lightweight xc ride, but good brakes mean serious bidness. That being said the new rigs running a 180/160 combo, I've been very happy with the setup and the quality of the brakes so far.

    The only concern of mine is getting parts from a somewhat unknown Italian manuf.
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  6. #6
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    I have a set of 160mm K24s on my SS and the power is just ridiculous. They seem to have everybit as much or more stopping power as my 180/160 J7 set-up on the Salty (true the 5" bike is 7 lbs. heavier). The modulation on the Jucies is better though.

    FWIW, mudpie runs the Puros 180 F&R on his 5" Turner.

    I don't think the Puros are worth the x-tra coin for what you get over the K24s unless bling is your thing.

    HTH,
    D

  7. #7
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    I'd like to submit that I have Monos and recently discovered by accident that the rotors (on my setup) play a big role in braking.

    I previously mentioned that I was temporarily using a Maggie rotor in the rear and found a crapload more power. To make sure this wasn't a contamination issue, I cleaned both, flipped them front to rear and back. The maggie has more surface area without holes. I tried it again and again when I was comparing it to the front. Same thing. I don't know if they're available without the floating rotors anymore, but it's worth a shot to try other rotors. When I ran the Maggies, I had some serious J7/Hayes braking power.

    That said, even with the Floaters, I like the Monos. Quiet, good modulation, great feel, and all metal parts. The standard rotors are adequate for me, although the endo/wheel locking power comes from different ones.

  8. #8
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    deal or no deal?

    Thanks all, I ordered the K24's w/180 mm for the front, I'm sticking with the Mono Mini 160mm in the rear. I couldn't justify the additional expense for the Puro's, my weight issues are not a matter of grams!

    I have the mini's working fine in the rear, for some reason I could never get enough power out of them up front, particularly on extended dowhhills. I weigh a tick over 200 (on a good day). I tried everything up front, new pads, double checked alignment, cleaned rotor etc...

    Anyway, I'll keep you posted.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilmoose
    Thanks all, I ordered the K24's w/180 mm for the front, I'm sticking with the Mono Mini 160mm in the rear. I couldn't justify the additional expense for the Puro's, my weight issues are not a matter of grams!

    I have the mini's working fine in the rear, for some reason I could never get enough power out of them up front, particularly on extended dowhhills. I weigh a tick over 200 (on a good day). I tried everything up front, new pads, double checked alignment, cleaned rotor etc...

    Anyway, I'll keep you posted.
    Yeah, report back on how the mismatched brakes are working for ya. Typically, the feel at the lever is very different which most people dislike about having mismatched brakes, but maybe it will work for you.

    _MK

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  10. #10
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    MK

    Never thought of that - I guess it makes sense. I figured the 180mm rotor would be so different that the nuances between brands wouldn't be noticeable. Kind of a fun experiment!

    Better keep the plastic warm & the wife happy.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    I previously mentioned that I was temporarily using a Maggie rotor in the rear and found a crapload more power. To make sure this wasn't a contamination issue, I cleaned both, flipped them front to rear and back.
    That's a good point, because as long as fluid isn't comming out of the system when you pull the brake lever, the "stopping" is going to be controlled by friction, and you either don't have enough, or you have too much. Maybe because of contamination or other issues. I can't stand when people say that you need to "bleed" your brakes if they are not making power. Contaminated or broken down fluid is going to pretty easy to spot comparatively, because if there's water it will boil out when the brakes get hot, and your lever WILL feel different. If the lever feel is consistant, it's a friction issue. Pads, rotor, whatever. I always notice how well any Avid brake stops, and I also usually notice how fast their pads wear out, and I think the two are pretty closely related. More friction and less pad life.
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  12. #12
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    Jayem,

    Good points, I bled the brakes, tried all sorts of things. The lever feel was actually quite consistent, firm, not mushy. Just couldn't slow me down fast enough - as you said, not enough friction. I figure either new brakes or a diet.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilmoose
    Jayem,

    Good points, I bled the brakes, tried all sorts of things. The lever feel was actually quite consistent, firm, not mushy. Just couldn't slow me down fast enough - as you said, not enough friction. I figure either new brakes or a diet.
    Have you tried the pads that are designed to provide more stopping power?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  14. #14
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    I have a set of Goodridge * pads and will try to see this week how much of an improvement they make.

  15. #15
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    Sorry I'm a little late to the party, particularly since you've already made up your mind.

    I really dig the K24s, and could only see justifying the expense of the Puros if you were trying to build up a light XC bike. The K24 weights are right in line with the Juicys, and I imagein that they behave similarly.

    I've been riding them for 4 months now, and love them. Haven't had any problems at all, and the power and modulation is great. They seem very solid all the way around, with no clear faults. I just don't think about them any more, which is about the highest complement you can pay a component.

  16. #16
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    Formula's Brakes Rock!!

    [QUOTE=MK_] They have been developed with the help of Avid guys, so they share similarities with Juicys. Which similarities? I have no idea. I hope they modulate better than Juicys, though. Are Puros worth the $$$ vs K24s? That depends on how much weight and bling matters to you. Performance wise, they are said to be identical.

    Actually, Formula 'helped' design and manufactured the first incarnation of Avid Juicy Seven brakes. Avid took the manufacturing to the far east around the second year (when all the squeaking started).

    Formula sells a lot more Puro's than K24's, but other than Ti bolts, carbon lever and fancy brake line they are the same brake and the weight difference is between 1-2 ounces. The Puro's are certainly the prettiest brakes on the planet, but I'm a bit of a cheap skate and less of an artist so I bought the K24's.


    I run K24's F180/R160 on my Burner and they are the best brakes I've ever used. For the increased performance, I agree that the 180 front is the way to go. All rear brakes do is lock of the rear wheel with much less force need than to stop the front wheel. Unless your doing Downieville or riding a heavy bike 32 (+) I'd go with a 160 rear.

    My friend Ray just got an Ibis Carbon Mojo and the Hayes brakes as set up barely stop the bike and they are a week old. These are not El Camino's which a lot of people like, but they have some mixed reviews on MTBR.

    I think that you'll like the pad contact lever on the K24 and Puro's. It's easy to change on while riding and it has 170 degrees of motion instead of ten revolutions like the red dial on the Juicy Seven's.

    Cheers,

    Kane

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    That's a good point, because as long as fluid isn't comming out of the system when you pull the brake lever, the "stopping" is going to be controlled by friction, and you either don't have enough, or you have too much. Maybe because of contamination or other issues. I can't stand when people say that you need to "bleed" your brakes if they are not making power. Contaminated or broken down fluid is going to pretty easy to spot comparatively, because if there's water it will boil out when the brakes get hot, and your lever WILL feel different. If the lever feel is consistant, it's a friction issue. Pads, rotor, whatever. I always notice how well any Avid brake stops, and I also usually notice how fast their pads wear out, and I think the two are pretty closely related. More friction and less pad life.
    Jayem,

    Do you use the floaters on your setup? Do you have any other rotors you can throw on to test the results I've seen?

    In general, I prefer rotors that don't have a ridiculous number of holes. Only a few are needed in the first place. The rest reduces swept area.

  18. #18
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    Too powerfull?

    Like Kane said, I got new Hayes 6 inch front and rear on my Mojo. And they take two fingers effort where my Avid mechanicals took about 1 finger effort to slow as much. I’m waiting delivery of a 7 inch for the front, but considering 7 for the rear too, this Mojo grips so well in back while braking (or the 6 inch Hayes brake is so weak, probably both). The more powerful front will lift weight off the rear more so 6 should be fine for the rear brake.

    I test rode Kane’s bike with the Formula brakes, with 7/6 inch rotors front/rear. And for fast and tight trail handling the front may be too powerful and jerky, and I'm 200 lbs. But I imagine it would just take a little time to get used to using a very light touch. A panic stop could be sketchy.

    But I'd rather have too much power than too little. It's kind of like having too much money (I guess?!).


  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Jayem,

    Do you use the floaters on your setup? Do you have any other rotors you can throw on to test the results I've seen?

    In general, I prefer rotors that don't have a ridiculous number of holes. Only a few are needed in the first place. The rest reduces swept area.
    Well, the rear has a rotor on a carrier, but it's not "floating". "Floating" is what the magura gustav DH caliper does, as it can move freely back and forth on it's mounts to deal with some warpage of the rotor. The carrier that hope uses allows the rotor to heat up and not warp, because it's allowed to expand radially without being anchored by bolts in the center. My front 200mm rotor is just the regular mono M4 rotor.

    Surface area makes sense. I've used plenty of diff rotors on different brakes, but pad compound is also very important.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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