5 Spot and Brake Jack- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    5 Spot and Brake Jack

    There have been many posts about horst link bikes vs single pivot bikes when it comes to brake jack. I've always known that HL bikes have less brake jack than single pivot bikes, but never really gave it much thought.

    Recently I've been trying my luck at steeper terrain. I was going down a very steep hill when it dawned on me that I rarely, if ever, use my rear brakes. I developed that habit riding my Trek Fuel for a couple of years.

    I tried using more rear brake and I was amazed at the traction I could get without skidding....on the 5 Spot. Yesterday, I did the same steep downhills on the Fuel....and I used the rear brake. The back end of the bike was hopping and skidding like crazy. What a BIG difference.

    The rear suspension on the 5 Spot really does work that well.

  2. #2
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    no doubt

    That's one of the big plusses of the Horst Link. Uncoordinated people like me really appreciate that feature!

    Here's a techno blurb (halfway down the page); a bunch of other companies like Specialized & Titus have good info on their sites as well.

    http://www.mbaction.com/qanda.asp?curpage=15

    Thanks Horst!

  3. #3
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    I hear ya bro...this is something I've been on about for some time. Point in case, my rear pads wear at 2x the rate of my fronts, so I figure use my R-brakes a lot. The tail end tracks true and grips hard. It may be that I do a lot of steep chutes into hard angled off-cambered turns and such, it could be because the terrain is very choppy, but I never notice the rear rising as some have mentioned. I suspect I'd need some pretty straight and smooth trails to see this effect.

    Oh and I got a new favorite move, when I want to rail a tight steep turn I get behind the seat and lean in... Sweet! It feels like stcking a leg out but I still have both feet on the pedals and I get to lever the bike any way I want. I don't know if this is a good idea but it's hella-fun!

    This weekend I continued to suprise myself with the bikes technical climbing....Gawd after a year you'd think I'd know my bike's limits. Yet again I cleared stuff that on the approach I was dead certain I'd never get up but just keep pedaling anyway. Man, I only wish I had the legs to drive this thing better.

    Quote Originally Posted by windidiot
    That's one of the big plusses of the Horst Link. Uncoordinated people like me really appreciate that feature!
    Put me on that list!

    There are plenty of ppl who are quite adamant that this behavior can be achieved w/o the HL... The argument has raged on for years... I couldn't give a rodent's hemoroid ...I wanted to be sure I got something that did the job, all indications pointed in this direction...and for this kind of dosh, I wasn't going to take chances. ...call me a homer if you must but I had a reaaaalllly good ride the other day.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 07-12-2004 at 08:03 AM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I hear ya bro...this is something I've been on about for some time. Point in case, my rear pads wear at 2x the rate of my fronts, so I figure use my R-brakes a lot. The tail end tracks true and grips hard. It may be that I do a lot of steep chutes into hard angled off-cambered turns and such, it could be because the terrain is very choppy, but I never notice the rear rising as some have mentioned. I suspect I'd need some pretty straight and smooth trails to see this effect.

    Oh and I got a new favorite move, when I want to rail a tight steep turn I get behind the seat and lean in... Sweet! It feels like stcking a leg out but I still have both feet on the pedals and I get to lever the bike any way I want. I don't know if this is a good idea but it's hella-fun!

    This weekend I continued to suprise myself with the bikes technical climbing....Gawd after a year you'd think I'd know my bike's limits. Yet again I cleared stuff that on the approach I was dead certain I'd never get up but just keep pedaling anyway. Man, I only wish I had the legs to drive this thing better.
    I need to clarify my statement.....I was primarily referring to the back end stiffening and being inactive, not just brake jack.

    Until recently, I used the front brakes so much more than the rear that I have changed the front pads already, but the rear pads are the originals and have over half of the pad left.

    It's a whole new experience for me to use the rear brakes. Yahoo!

  5. #5
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    Sorry I was actually trying to hit both points in the same statement...it tracks extremely well, AND it dosen't rise up. (But maybe that's just me?)

    I was suprised to see my rear pads wearing so quickly. I would have though it to be more like my truck which goes through front pads yearly and is still on it's factory set in the rear! (makes me wonder what they're there for)
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    It's a whole new experience for me to use the rear brakes. Yahoo!
    Ha! The Spot is a totally new biking experience for me too. I think it goes to show how critical a good suspension design is, seeing as how it has a huge impact on the other systems (i.e. braking and drive train) of a bike.

    Ironic that you'd compare it to a Fuel seeing as how my wife took her XCE out for its maiden voyage (dirt anyway) over the weekend and the only other FS rig she had any experience on was our sister-in-laws Fuel, which she's borrowed half a dozen times or so. Throughout the ride she was constantly commenting on how plush and neutral it felt in comparison to the Fuel, and saying at the end of the ride, "I didn't know a bike could be so comfortable and fun."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashTheDOG
    Ha! The Spot is a totally new biking experience for me too. I think it goes to show how critical a good suspension design is, seeing as how it has a huge impact on the other systems (i.e. braking and drive train) of a bike.

    Ironic that you'd compare it to a Fuel seeing as how my wife took her XCE out for its maiden voyage (dirt anyway) over the weekend and the only other FS rig she had any experience on was our sister-in-laws Fuel, which she's borrowed half a dozen times or so. Throughout the ride she was constantly commenting on how plush and neutral it felt in comparison to the Fuel, and saying at the end of the ride, "I didn't know a bike could be so comfortable and fun."
    Yep... The XCE with the extra inch of travel (compared to the Fuel), plus the horst link, really makes the ride much plusher than the Fuel.

    That's also the main reason that I keep the Fuel.......it's SOOOOO different from the Spot. The Fuel keeps me honest and my technical skills honed. The 5 Spot has become my main ride, though.

    You're lucky that your wife rides. My wife just asked me if I wanted to go for a ride (not that kind ). She wants to rent a FS to see what it's like. I hope she likes riding.
    I'll let her go at her pace, this time

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    Put me on that list!

    There are plenty of ppl who are quite adamant that this behavior can be achieved w/o the HL... The argument has raged on for years...
    I notice no difference in the rear braking between my 5spot and my other, single pivot bike.

    It's not an "argument," it's simply a fact that a single pivot bike doesn't have to suffer from brake jack.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    You're lucky that your wife rides. My wife just asked me if I wanted to go for a ride (not that kind ). She wants to rent a FS to see what it's like. I hope she likes riding. I'll let her go at her pace, this time
    We'll see... she was very excited after the last ride, and rode impressively well, but the test will be if she hops back on the horse after her first major wipeout. Whatever you do make sure you get her the best rental rig you can find, like I mentioned earlier it made a world of difference for her, as it would for any of us.

  10. #10
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    I have also ridden both HL and single pivots, and

    I cant say that I noticed a lot of difference, I think that weight shift forward during braking is much, much more important than suspension design in determining whether suspension rises under braking. I probably tend to use the front brake a lot (my front pads wear much more rapidly than the rear) which may influence that more.
    I do notice a small difference between the spot and the loco moto I had earlier, but not a lot.
    The fuel and 5-spot are not a good comparison, one has two plus more inches ot travel and does not have tight bushings and flexing seatstays which make the suspension less active. A 5 spot to X-5 may be a better comparison of whether the HL really works. But I dont know anyone who rides a X5. I would of course volunteer to extended marathon back to back testing sessions if someone will donate one........

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Wombat
    ...The fuel and 5-spot are not a good comparison, one has two plus more inches ot travel and does not have tight bushings and flexing seatstays which make the suspension less active. A 5 spot to X-5 may be a better comparison of whether the HL really works....
    I'd hazzard a guess that in terms of rear end braking there isn't a whole lot of difference between the three fives (5 Spot, X-5, and 575) Much of what I've read here and elswhere seems to suggest this. What I was getting at was that at the time (last year) I wasn't up to searching for the SP that did do it correctly when I knew of a particular HL that had a history of nailing it.

    There are plenty of SPs that do the job... and plenty that don't it's really a matter of execution. The same can be said for HLs.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    I notice no difference in the rear braking between my 5spot and my other, single pivot bike.

    It's not an "argument," it's simply a fact that a single pivot bike doesn't have to suffer from brake jack.
    If you don't notice any difference, there's something wrong. I'll leave it at that.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    If you don't notice any difference, there's something wrong. I'll leave it at that.
    Sorry, you're either dreadfully mistaken or just plain clueless.

    There's nothing wrong.

    I just happen to ride a single pivot with no brake jack.

    Please think a bit harder and/or educate yourself before replying next time.

    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    ......I notice no difference in the rear braking between my 5spot and my other, single pivot bike..
    ..Pete, which SP are you referring to?....the Foes? or Joker? Just curious.......


  15. #15
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    I haven't noticed any diff. in braking either since switching over to a single pivot bike, it feels just as active and definitely no brake jack. Overall, the suspension feels similiar to a 5 Spot.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jncarpenter
    ..Pete, which SP are you referring to?....the Foes? or Joker? Just curious.......
    That would be my Foes.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    There have been many posts about horst link bikes vs single pivot bikes when it comes to brake jack. I've always known that HL bikes have less brake jack than single pivot bikes, but never really gave it much thought.

    Recently I've been trying my luck at steeper terrain. I was going down a very steep hill when it dawned on me that I rarely, if ever, use my rear brakes. I developed that habit riding my Trek Fuel for a couple of years.

    I tried using more rear brake and I was amazed at the traction I could get without skidding....on the 5 Spot. Yesterday, I did the same steep downhills on the Fuel....and I used the rear brake. The back end of the bike was hopping and skidding like crazy. What a BIG difference.

    The rear suspension on the 5 Spot really does work that well.
    You're noticing exactly what you should notice. The 5-Spot puts much less compressive torque on the rear suspension than what you have with any single pivot bike. On single pivots the combination of lots of compressive torque and the tendency of the rear spring to extend because of the load shift to the front from deceleration causes a binding of the rear suspension that makes it stiffer.

    This is something that was well worked out by automotive and motorcycle engineers long before Horst Leitner came along.

    I've never had any trouble noticing the difference.

    Those who are unable to notice it and who also discount the theoretical explanations have no business giving advice on what bike to buy.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Those who are unable to notice it and who also discount the theoretical explanations have no business giving advice on what bike to buy.
    LOL!

    Attack of the uber geek!

    I warned you yet you failed to take my advice. It's a pity.

    I don't notice a difference oh-so-obssessive one because well, I'll let you try to figure it out yourself.

    Have a look at this picture and hopefully you'll realize how your assumptions have once again entertained a few people with your uber geek blather.

    Yes, I've ridden, and owned, bikes that suffer from brake jack. Riding experience counts...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    LOL!

    Attack of the uber geek!

    I warned you yet you failed to take my advice. It's a pity.

    I don't notice a difference oh-so-obssessive one because well, I'll let you try to figure it out yourself.

    Have a look at this picture and hopefully you'll realize how your assumptions have once again entertained a few people with your uber geek blather.

    Yes, I've ridden, and owned, bikes that suffer from brake jack. Riding experience counts...
    But your "single pivot" bike has four pivots when it's braking.

    So you lied in order to humiliate my benevolent grandfatherly self (and any others who fell for it).

    Shame on you.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    But your "single pivot" bike has four pivots when it's braking.

    So you lied in order to humiliate my benevolent grandfatherly self (and any others who fell for it).

    Shame on you.
    No lies from me old man, just you once again getting caught up in minutia and making assumptions.

    You are so predictable.

    Using your "logic" (and I use that term VERY loosely), Foes must be lying about their bikes as well.

    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="55" width="472"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" class="header">Single Pivot Design</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td class="content">All Foes suspension frames utilize a triangulated single pivot swing arm with oversized sealed aircraft bearings.
    </td></tr></tbody> </table>
    You are so easy...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    No lies from me old man, just you once again getting caught up in minutia and making assumptions.

    You are so predictable.

    Using your "logic" (and I use that term VERY loosely), Foes must be lying about their bikes as well.

    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="55" width="472"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" class="header">Single Pivot Design</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td class="content">All Foes suspension frames utilize a triangulated single pivot swing arm with oversized sealed aircraft bearings.
    </td></tr></tbody> </table>
    You are so easy...
    Your first post would have been clever, instead of deliberately misleading, if you had included the picture there.

    In my first post I said something was wrong. Now I know what it was. I also said I would leave it at that and now I will.

    We don't want to mess up the happy Turner board.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    Your first post would have been clever, instead of deliberately misleading, if you had included the picture there.
    Gramps, you can keep on dancing around in a vain effort to salve your wounded uber-geekedness but the fact remains that I haven't been misleading at all.

    Which part of my original post are you still struggling with?

    "I notice no difference in the rear braking between my 5spot and my other, single pivot bike.

    It's not an "argument," it's simply a fact that a single pivot bike doesn't have to suffer from brake jack."

    I own a single pivot bike, despite your inane claim that it's not single pivot. There is nothing misleading about my post.

    The simple fact is that once again you got so caught up in the minutia that you can't see the forest for the trees.

    It's not about the ride, it's about the ride.

    I now return you to your silly discussions about why "X" bike's pivot location would raise rider satisfaction by 14.786% if only the manufacturer would move it aft by .000006789 mm.

    I swear, you're even more ridiculous than those weight weiner freaks, and that's a really difficult hing to accomplish.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH

    Those who are unable to notice it and who also discount the theoretical explanations have no business giving advice on what bike to buy.
    Steve- I've owned other designs like the Proflex and Ibis Szazbo that definitely were affected by braking and I just came off a Truth. My FXR feels the same as the Truth (and the 5 Spot) when it comes to braking, it doesn't use a floating brake like Petes but Foes only recommends it for 6+ inches of travel. I'm no techno wizard, but I can tell you from experience the FXR feels just as active as the other 4 bar designs I've ridden. Maybe the swing-link has something to do with it??

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Gramps, you can keep on dancing around in a vain effort to salve your wounded uber-geekedness but the fact remains that I haven't been misleading at all.

    Which part of my original post are you still struggling with?

    "I notice no difference in the rear braking between my 5spot and my other, single pivot bike.

    It's not an "argument," it's simply a fact that a single pivot bike doesn't have to suffer from brake jack."

    I own a single pivot bike, despite your inane claim that it's not single pivot. There is nothing misleading about my post.

    The simple fact is that once again you got so caught up in the minutia that you can't see the forest for the trees.

    It's not about the ride, it's about the ride.

    I now return you to your silly discussions about why "X" bike's pivot location would raise rider satisfaction by 14.786% if only the manufacturer would move it aft by .000006789 mm.

    I swear, you're even more ridiculous than those weight weiner freaks, and that's a really difficult hing to accomplish.

    YOU RULE!
    Voltron

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    Steve- I've owned other designs like the Proflex and Ibis Szazbo that definitely were affected by braking and I just came off a Truth. My FXR feels the same as the Truth (and the 5 Spot) when it comes to braking, it doesn't use a floating brake like Petes but Foes only recommends it for 6+ inches of travel. I'm no techno wizard, but I can tell you from experience the FXR feels just as active as the other 4 bar designs I've ridden. Maybe the swing-link has something to do with it??
    I just rode a Foes FXR the other day. I met a guy at the nearby gas station with one on his roof. I had my Truth up on mine. We admired each other's bikes and then we swapped bikes and went for a half hour or so ride on the trails nearby that I ride all the time.

    On a steep downhill section with loose rocks I applied lots of rear brake to test the very thing we're discussing. I noticed exactly the same thing that Blue Shorts noted in his original post. The Foes would lock up and lose traction with noticeably less rear brake pressure than my Truth would.

    If Pete were the kind of person one could discuss things with I would make the point that a floating brake linkage on a single pivot bike works by converting the rear suspension effectively to a 4-bar linkage when you apply the rear brake.

    You can ask Foes whether or not that is true. Or the guys at Brake Therapy.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogreg
    YOU RULE!
    Are you a member of the Pete fan club or are you being facetious? Just curious.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    Are you a member of the Pete fan club or are you being facetious? Just curious.

    The latter!

    But I do think His pictures are purty.
    Voltron

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    I just rode a Foes FXR the other day. I met a guy at the nearby gas station with one on his roof. I had my Truth up on mine. We admired each other's bikes and then we swapped bikes and went for a half hour or so ride on the trails nearby that I ride all the time.

    On a steep downhill section with loose rocks I applied lots of rear brake to test the very thing we're discussing. I noticed exactly the same thing that Blue Shorts noted in his original post. The Foes would lock up and lose traction with noticeably less rear brake pressure than my Truth would.

    If Pete were the kind of person one could discuss things with I would make the point that a floating brake linkage on a single pivot bike works by converting the rear suspension effectively to a 4-bar linkage when you apply the rear brake.

    You can ask Foes whether or not that is true. Or the guys at Brake Therapy.
    I'm not arguing the point that a floating brake improves the braking for SP designs. Foes even states on their website all long-travel SP designs are affected by braking, but they also say long-travel is 6+ inches.

    What I'm saying is I can't tell any diff. and I ride a lot of steep, loose terrain and I'm heavy on my rear brakes. Did the FXR you rode have a Curnutt?, if so, possibly the air pressure for the platform was set too high for your weight. When I first got mine, I had the air pressure too high and I was skidding when I hit the brakes and had lousy traction(it did pedal like a HT though) I lowered it 10lbs and I immediately noticed a diff. with increased traction. The Truth did the same thing when I had the Romic comp. dial turned up.

  29. #29
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    did i ever mention that I LOVE peanut butter and honey sandwiches?

    they are really delicious with a big cold glass (glass must be cold too!) of skim milk!

    YUM!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tappoix
    did i ever mention that I LOVE peanut butter and honey sandwiches?

    they are really delicious with a big cold glass (glass must be cold too!) of skim milk!

    YUM!
    I like bananas with peanut butter. After each bite of banana I spread a little PB on the flat spot. Must be organic crunchy PB.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rroeder
    I'm not arguing the point that a floating brake improves the braking for SP designs. Foes even states on their website all long-travel SP designs are affected by braking, but they also say long-travel is 6+ inches.

    What I'm saying is I can't tell any diff. and I ride a lot of steep, loose terrain and I'm heavy on my rear brakes. Did the FXR you rode have a Curnutt?, if so, possibly the air pressure for the platform was set too high for your weight. When I first got mine, I had the air pressure too high and I was skidding when I hit the brakes and had lousy traction(it did pedal like a HT though) I lowered it 10lbs and I immediately noticed a diff. with increased traction. The Truth did the same thing when I had the Romic comp. dial turned up.
    It had a Curnutt. The guy was almost exactly the same size as me. But no fine tuning was done.

    He liked my Truth but said he'd heard that they break all the time. Where did he get that idea?

    I've never noticed that adjusting the Romic compression knob affected braking. I'll have to play with that and see.

  32. #32
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    All this techy brake jack stuff is way over my head, but I do know one thing. There is more skidding comming from my ass than from either my 5-Spot or Superlight. Guess I need to learn to wipe better.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  33. #33
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    So that's what the marks were on your white saddle!

    Just put a set of diapers under your shorts, removes the evidence, and provides extra crash protection. I usually skid badly on really hairy descents. If I have a horst link inserted up my arse, would that help?

  34. #34
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    Not exactly an X5 / 5Spot comparison....

    ...but I do have an El Salty and an XCE.

    Despite the lack of a horst pivot on the El Salty, it rides just as well as the XCE. No noticable brake jack or lack of traction.

    One thing that I was surprised to find was that the Salty seems to pedal better than the XCE, even with the Salt in 5" mode. Go figure. I suspect that this has less to do with suspension action and more to do with frame stiffness, but just a guess.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve from JH
    ...I've never noticed that adjusting the Romic compression knob affected braking. I'll have to play with that and see.
    RR's may be on to something there. It depends on how the Romic was tuned though. I know that mine gets quite stiff with just a few clicks of the compression knob...but I also have the big-boy-treatment. A riding buddy of mine has a '04 Truth, and his blue knob has only ~6 clicks available on his limited edt. Romic. Mine has more than twice that. It did even before the BBT. Anyway what I'm saying is, in my limited experience with the blue knob turned up too high, the back end was certainly stiffer than I liked. It lost some small bump compliance as well as some terrain following ability under breaking. It took the bigger hits just fine, but the smaller stuff seemed to get ignored. JMO
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    A riding buddy of mine has a '04 Truth, and his blue knob has only ~6 clicks available on his limited edt. Romic. Mine has more than twice that.
    Ya, my wife's 6.5 x 1.5 Romic, on her XCE, only had six clicks. Hmm... wonder what's up with that.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    RR's may be on to something there. It depends on how the Romic was tuned though. I know that mine gets quite stiff with just a few clicks of the compression knob...but I also have the big-boy-treatment. A riding buddy of mine has a '04 Truth, and his blue knob has only ~6 clicks available on his limited edt. Romic. Mine has more than twice that. It did even before the BBT. Anyway what I'm saying is, in my limited experience with the blue knob turned up too high, the back end was certainly stiffer than I liked. It lost some small bump compliance as well as some terrain following ability under breaking. It took the bigger hits just fine, but the smaller stuff seemed to get ignored. JMO
    Mine had more clicks too and was stiff when turned in all the way, it worked well but the rear end would break loose easier in loose terrain-braking or not.

  38. #38
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    I tend to go with a seat of the pants feel

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    There have been many posts about horst link bikes vs single pivot bikes when it comes to brake jack. I've always known that HL bikes have less brake jack than single pivot bikes, but never really gave it much thought.

    Recently I've been trying my luck at steeper terrain. I was going down a very steep hill when it dawned on me that I rarely, if ever, use my rear brakes. I developed that habit riding my Trek Fuel for a couple of years.

    I tried using more rear brake and I was amazed at the traction I could get without skidding....on the 5 Spot. Yesterday, I did the same steep downhills on the Fuel....and I used the rear brake. The back end of the bike was hopping and skidding like crazy. What a BIG difference.

    The rear suspension on the 5 Spot really does work that well.
    My last frame was a low SP bike and I did a direct comparison on a Saturday and Sunday ride on the exact same ride with my new Intense Tracer(Horst). I moved the brakes and wheels, with the same tires, from the SP after a Saturday ride, to the Tracer. The Horst bike did not skid as much when braking. The rear felt slightly more active.
    It felt like I had more control in steep rocky DH sections. The SP tended to compress and stiffen(less active)

    My old Horst GT LTS suffered from brake jack. The rear end extended and you had to get way back to keep the fork from compressing. That felt worse than the SP under braking.

    Now the difference between the SP and the Tracer was not that big of a deal. I could ride both fine. I did notice the SP actually climbed better on some climbs than the Tracer. In other terrain, the Tracer climbed better.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro
    My last frame was a low SP bike and I did a direct comparison on a Saturday and Sunday ride on the exact same ride with my new Intense Tracer(Horst). I moved the brakes and wheels, with the same tires, from the SP after a Saturday ride, to the Tracer. The Horst bike did not skid as much when braking. The rear felt slightly more active.
    It felt like I had more control in steep rocky DH sections. The SP tended to compress and stiffen(less active)

    My old Horst GT LTS suffered from brake jack. The rear end extended and you had to get way back to keep the fork from compressing. That felt worse than the SP under braking.

    Now the difference between the SP and the Tracer was not that big of a deal. I could ride both fine. I did notice the SP actually climbed better on some climbs than the Tracer. In other terrain, the Tracer climbed better.
    If you included a 5-Spot in your test you would probably find that the Spot gave you more of the same advantage as the Tracer. In fact the difference between the Spot and the Tracer would probably be about the same as the difference between the Tracer and the SP.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Wombat
    Just put a set of diapers under your shorts, removes the evidence, and provides extra crash protection. I usually skid badly on really hairy descents. If I have a horst link inserted up my arse, would that help?
    LOL. Yes, the horst link can provide miracles and feels pretty good too. Just make sure you liberally grease all pivot points.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  41. #41
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    Horst Link will add 2 inches to your Johnny Roger!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    LOL. Yes, the horst link can provide miracles and feels pretty good too. Just make sure you liberally grease all pivot points.
    Despite our best efforts, some people on the forum want to take this whole suspension design seriously!

  42. #42
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    I Can't Get Into the Tech Stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Wombat
    Despite our best efforts, some people on the forum want to take this whole suspension design seriously!
    You are right Kevin, but I just can't get into certain things. Sorry guys for invading this post with my A$$ tales. Some people are obsessed with brake jack and others are obsessed with my A$$. The tech guys have every right to enjoy what they enjoy without my A$$ getting in the way.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  43. #43
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    Horst

    A Horst link does not by it's simple use eliminate "brake jack", as the old GT's had HL's and were notorious jackers/stiffeners under braking force. All 4 of the pivots relationship to each other is what needs to be looked at. Not all bikes will jack, as one of you said, it can just be a stiffening of the suspension, as every SP design has a different chainstay angle and pivot height. A "low" pivot SP stiffening under braking will not be "noticeable" to many riders, that does not mean that there is not torque being fed into the suspension, it means that you can't or don't want to feel it. Shock setup also has a major impact on the rear suspension, go figure. Platform damping rear shocks do not just mask the negative aspects of lesser suspension designs under pedaling, to a lesser degree they can help with un-desireable suspension movement under braking Absolutely the ONLY reason that Foes and Brake Therapy etc make 4 bar links for the braking system is to manipulate or nuetralize the braking forces, the ONLY reason. With different pivot points Foes and Brake Therapy could make the rear squat like the first generation Lobo, or stiffen and jack like an LTS by just changing the pivot points. Squating or jacking brake torque happens on ALL amounts of travel but only becomes apparent to most riders at the longer wheel travels, when the brakes are on of course. I have ridden down hills on single pivot bikes (without a 4 bar brake linkage) without touching the rear brake to feel the suspension work, then as soon as I apply the rear brake the rear end starts skipping and although "jacking" is tough to define, the non Horstlink bike will get notably less effective with the rear brake on. No doubt.

    There is a reason that I pay Specialized, proper positioning of the Horst link is the best way to build a bicycle rear suspenion.

    I like to ride with a peanut butter and honey sandwich so that the bread soaks up the honey and on a long ride that is better than any $2 energy bar. I will pass on bananas as they get pretty bad on a hot day.

    David Turner

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    A Horst link does not by it's simple use eliminate "brake jack", as the old GT's had HL's and were notorious jackers/stiffeners under braking force. All 4 of the pivots relationship to each other is what needs to be looked at. Not all bikes will jack, as one of you said, it can just be a stiffening of the suspension, as every SP design has a different chainstay angle and pivot height. A "low" pivot SP stiffening under braking will not be "noticeable" to many riders, that does not mean that there is not torque being fed into the suspension, it means that you can't or don't want to feel it. Shock setup also has a major impact on the rear suspension, go figure. Platform damping rear shocks do not just mask the negative aspects of lesser suspension designs under pedaling, to a lesser degree they can help with un-desireable suspension movement under braking Absolutely the ONLY reason that Foes and Brake Therapy etc make 4 bar links for the braking system is to manipulate or nuetralize the braking forces, the ONLY reason. With different pivot points Foes and Brake Therapy could make the rear squat like the first generation Lobo, or stiffen and jack like an LTS by just changing the pivot points. Squating or jacking brake torque happens on ALL amounts of travel but only becomes apparent to most riders at the longer wheel travels, when the brakes are on of course. I have ridden down hills on single pivot bikes (without a 4 bar brake linkage) without touching the rear brake to feel the suspension work, then as soon as I apply the rear brake the rear end starts skipping and although "jacking" is tough to define, the non Horstlink bike will get notably less effective with the rear brake on. No doubt.

    There is a reason that I pay Specialized, proper positioning of the Horst link is the best way to build a bicycle rear suspenion.

    I like to ride with a peanut butter and honey sandwich so that the bread soaks up the honey and on a long ride that is better than any $2 energy bar. I will pass on bananas as they get pretty bad on a hot day.

    David Turner
    Thanks for the input! What brand of peanut butter do you use?

  45. #45
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    bananas

    I am amazed that bananas can travel on boat all the way from Ecuador without a hitch, but cant survive two hours in my camelback

    Fig newtons seem to work pretty well and are cheaper than energy bars or gels.

    Thanks for the input Dave, we do appreciate the fact that you actually follow this forum. Not many other manufacturers do that.

  46. #46
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve3
    My experience is by comparison to the Burner:

    DBR X2- Moderate locking under braking
    GT LTS- Major locking
    Tomac 98- Major locking
    SC Superlight- less than the 98, but not moderate
    Klein/Trek/GF Adept/Fuel/Sugar-moderate locking
    Rocky Mountain Element- a bit more than moderate.
    Kona- the same as RM (except for the longer travel bikes 5")
    Oddly enough, the NRS doesn't seem to be as active under braking as any other Horst link bike I rode. I guage by the feel of the suspension settling in the travel, as well as the s-s-s-skkkiddddding on and off of the back wheel. I don't use FEA to determine that one rear suspension works better than the other. I just ride it.
    My experience with PB&J/honey:

    Plain PB&J - no brake jack whatsoever, but gets a little rough w/extra chunky.
    PB&J w/ Bananas - Still no brake jack but tends to slide in the corners.
    PB&H again brake jack seems unaffected but tends to draw bees.
    I've tried power-bars but honestly, I get more satisfaction out of asphalt roofing shingles.
    Oddly enough, I found Gu is useless for sealing UST tires.

    I don't use the FDA to determine if one snack ingests better than another I just eat it.

    Thanks DT! It's always interesting to hear the thoughts from the mind behind such great designs.
    Last edited by Bikezilla; 07-16-2004 at 01:39 PM.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Sorry, you're either dreadfully mistaken or just plain clueless.

    There's nothing wrong.

    I just happen to ride a single pivot with no brake jack.

    Please think a bit harder and/or educate yourself before replying next time.

    Cheers.

    Pete, I read all your responses in this thread and you come across as a pompous ass!! Why couldn't you just state that your SP had a floating brake?

  48. #48
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    Thanks for the input

    I have to say, I love the Turner board, and the more I read, the more I want a Turner for my next bike (orange or silver please). I especially love the manufacturer input.

    I have some questions regarding the "Horst link" that I wondered if the techies could answer (so far, this has been an enlightening discussion).

    1. I have heard that the link was originally developed for motorcycle use. Anyone know the story, or the validity of the above statement?

    2. I know next to nothing about motorcycles, but whenever I look at the suspension design closely on the one's I see parked, I'd guess about 90% use a single pivot rear suspension. Anyone know why motorcycle manufacturers prefer this design? I would think a neutral rear brake would be very important at the speeds motorcycles carry.

    Enlighten me, Thanks,

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by enelnelson
    ...
    2. I know next to nothing about motorcycles, but whenever I look at the suspension design closely on the one's I see parked, I'd guess about 90% use a single pivot rear suspension. Anyone know why motorcycle manufacturers prefer this design? I would think a neutral rear brake would be very important at the speeds motorcycles carry.
    There are some people here FAR more qualified to answer your questions but a quick and dirty answer for #2 (IMO) is:

    Motorcycles are extremely different and have very different requirements than bicycles.
    1- They have a very heavy engine which also affects the center of gravity as well as the suspension.
    2- The engine provides a comparitively steady level of input for a throttle change, where a bike pulses with each pedal stroke. Basically they only have to deal with one bob.
    3- All that weight in the motorcycle frame and engine makes the rider's weight relatively insignificant compared to the difference between a 160lb rider and a 27 lb bicycle. Sure the rider affects the motorcycle, but not nearly to the same extreme as on a bike.
    4- Engines don't get tired and can't feel slight suspension inefficiencies and then post rants about it on MTBR. Engines pretty much just go "brrrrooooommmmmmm".

    Okay I bow to the techie types for meaningful input.
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salami
    Pete, I read all your responses in this thread and you come across as a pompous ass!! Why couldn't you just state that your SP had a floating brake?
    Because I like to upset dimwits that "mountain bike" in a State that has no mountains and is pancake flat...

    That's one possible answer.

    The other possible answer is because people that make sweeping generalizations and pose as "an authority" crack me up.

  51. #51
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    I have an XCE (2+ years) and a Spot (almost 1 year). Those are my benchmarks. XCE has a non-platform Vanilla RC and the Spot has a Romic with no bob-knob dialed in.

    I demoed a 575 (low SP, 5th Air) for a day and did not notice any significant brake squat or stiffening.

    I demoed a Spider (VPP, AVA non-Propedal Float)) for a day and noticed a tiny amount. Really had to look for it.

    I demoed a Gemini (high SP, Swinger 4-Way coil) for a day and it pedaled like cr@p in general, and there was some brake stiffening but not as much as the granny-gear-chain-torque-suspension-lockout. Yucko.

    I think it would have been good for Pete to have mentioned that his "SP" effectively had a 4-bar brake system, but that would not have been the whole story either. Like DT said, any design can display almost any behavior. It's in the execution...
    Last edited by tscheezy; 07-29-2004 at 07:17 PM.
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  52. #52
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    Brake jack

    I'm not an expert but I've owned more than a dozen FS frames and the 5 Spot has the best braking feel of them all. On the single pivots I've had the only one that dosn't have bad brake jack is the Foes Fly with the floating kit. My Blur jacked as bad as any of the mid travel single pivots I had. One thing I noticed about the various singlepivot frames was that the further the pivot is from the bottom bracket the worse the negative effects are and the same should be true for four bar designs as well, but I dont have experience on any high pivot four bars so I cant say for sure. If any of you have experience on the Konas with the high main pivot I would like to know how bad they jack under braking or how much peddle feedback they have.

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