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Thread: 06 vs. 07 dhr

  1. #1
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    06 vs. 07 dhr

    Knowing what we know about the 07 dhr, would it be worth it to wait until feburary for the new 07 dhr's or should i go and pick up an 06 while they go on sale?

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    I think it all comes down to the geometry you want. In my case I'm holding out for the 07 because I need a smaller frame. The 07s are smaller, slacker, lower and lighter.

    While we raised the DHR thread back from the dead, do we have any updates DT? I'm still waiting on an effective top tube length, measured however you like DT.

    Thanks

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    top tube

    dhSean, how do YOU want it measured, I will do my best to give you what you need.

    DT

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    dhSean, how do YOU want it measured, I will do my best to give you what you need.

    DT
    If you look at the Giant website you can find how they measure it since that is what I'm currently riding (05 extra small DH Comp). I think it is from the center top of the head tube with a horizontal line to a line from the center of the bottom bracket following the angle of the seat tube.

    I'm pretty sure the new frame should be small enough, I don't have many other options with my size 5'2" and 130lbs. I really love the new design, just hoping I will be comfortable riding it.

    Thanks

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    angle

    What is the angle that Giant uses? a couple degrees will make a tremendous difference in measurement.

    DT

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    What is the angle that Giant uses? a couple degrees will make a tremendous difference in measurement.

    DT
    I'm not sure how to explain it other than getting the geometry diagram from the Giant website. Instead of just measuring from the top center of the head tube horizontally to the top center of the seat tube they measure to an imaginary line that fall slightly behing the seat tube that is projected from the center of the bottom bracket along the angle of the seat tube.

    Try these links:
    http://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/030...sp?model=11489

    http://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/cat...&modelid=11489

    I would be satisfied with a measurement from the top center of the haed tube with a horizontal line to the top center of the seat tube.

    Thanks

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    Giant

    Drop the engineering dept at Giant a note and ask them specifically what is the angle of the line that is projected from what appears to not even be the center of the BB. Untill then any measurement I give you is worthless as a comparison, and the only reason you want a # is for comparison, and without accurate #'s there is no sense in comparing, Right? That is why any DH effective top tube measurement # is worthless unless EVERYONE that builds big travel bikes uses the same system.

    I hope you see the futility in comparing bikes based on top tubes that stop all over the place in relationship to the the the what? If anyone out there has a fool proof system lets do an Industry Standard for bikes without seat tubes that do not project to anything system.

    DT

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    dhSean, how do YOU want it measured, I will do my best to give you what you need.

    DT
    Now that's customer service!


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    DT thanks for all the help, I find it amazing that you even have time to look at these forums and I'm gratefull. I can't imagine getting this type of service from any other bike company.

    I know nobody measures bike geometry the same and you can see the problems this causes for me. I'm about to shell out thousands of dollars on a bike that may not work for me at all and then have to scramble for a replacement.

    My previous 2001 DHR was great but just too long of a reach. The cockpit was just too large for me. I took a chance on the Giant based on their geometry specs and felt much more comfortable - although the bike is a tank and the linkage hanging out the bottom is an issue. How small are we talking for the new frame? Since most companies seem to use an effective top tube length maybe that would work. Measured from the top center of the head tube to the horizontally to the top center of the seat tube. Just like you have on your website but not to the bottom of the seat tube - straight acroos.

    Thanks

    - I'm trying not to be a pain in the ass but next race season is very important to me and I want to have the best setup possible for myself.

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    it looks to me like giant gives an effective seat tube angle of 69 (C) and that line is parallel with the seat tube line through the BB. I can see the problem with trying to measure to the seat tube/post since the part that the post is in is probably a different angle.

    Sean, if you do a horizontal tt measurement of your own bike what do you come up with?


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    now that I look at it closer, it looks like Turners "A" measurement is a better cockpit number and you should be able to measure the same on your giant, mid point head tube to mid point seat post and go by that instead of trying to figure out giants effective/virtual measurement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by airwreck
    it looks to me like giant gives an effective seat tube angle of 69 (C) and that line is parallel with the seat tube line through the BB. I can see the problem with trying to measure to the seat tube/post since the part that the post is in is probably a different angle.

    Sean, if you do a horizontal tt measurement of your own bike what do you come up with?
    Thanks for posting the diagram. I'll have to get back to you on the measurement. I'm at work and already spent too much time on here today. I'll measure the bike tonight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhsean
    I'm at work and already spent too much time on here today.


    I think we just need to know what is 07 DHR measurement for "A", then take that same measurement on the Giant.


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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I hope you see the futility in comparing bikes based on top tubes that stop all over the place in relationship to the the the what? If anyone out there has a fool proof system lets do an Industry Standard for bikes without seat tubes that do not project to anything system.
    Why stop there? XC bikes might not see the same level of drastic variances in seat tube angles, but a degree or two difference between similar bikes is common and can have a significant effect on listed top tube length.

    I think a horizontal measurement from the center of the top of the head tube to a vertical line centered on the bottom bracket would be very useful for all bikes. Kind of like front-center, but without being effected by head tube angle and fork length.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

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    Dave,

    The only relevant measurements for a DH bike are, IMO

    Head Angle
    Bottom bracket height
    Chain stay length
    Head tube length
    Wheelbase measurement (stating the fork you have used to obtain the bb, wb and ha)
    Center of BB to fork crownrace.

    You hardly sit down in DH, and like you say the seat angle will give misleading top tube numbers. Most important measurement for fit of a DH bike is the distance between your feet to your hands which has nothing to do with seat tubes and effective top tube lengths as you are not sitting down, you are standing up.

    Most important for how a bike will ride is chain stay, bottom bracket and wheelbase measurements

    You have given us all the info, except for center BB to crownrace, which is probably the most important, especially if you are making the bikes smaller this year, it will probably catch people out thinking the sizing is similar. It might be worth your time to put a little note on the site when you put up the 07 DHR that sizes have changed.

    Here is what i have.

    Size S M L
    HT 3.7 4.2 4.7
    WB 44.8 46 46.8
    bb 14.4
    cs 17.4
    ha 64
    stand over 30.5 - 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by cave dweller
    Most important measurement for fit of a DH bike is the distance between your feet to your hands which has nothing to do with seat tubes and effective top tube lengths as you are not sitting down, you are standing up.
    I agree, there still needs to be a way to include a third point such as the hips and thats going to come from a triangle of bars to bb to the hips in a neutral position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by airwreck
    I agree, there still needs to be a way to include a third point such as the hips and thats going to come from a triangle of bars to bb to the hips in a neutral position.
    I think AIRWRECK understands what I'm looking for. Basically, how small the cockpit is to see if I can move around the bike and get behind the seat if I need to, or over the bars enough without reaching to weight the front end.

    All I want is the same top tube measurement on the new bike that is currently listed on the diagram from the current DHR. I think this would give me idea on how much smaller the new front triangle is on the new frame. Since we are standing and the bottom bracket should fall somewhere in between the seat tube and head tube I think this is a viable measurement.

    Unfortunately there are no small DHRs around here for me to try out so this is all I have to go by. I have tried a medium and it felt good but was far too large for me to handle.

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    Does Competitive Cyclist offer the demo on the DHR too?

  19. #19
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    If the 07's are a little smaller than the 06' DHR's and an 06' medium felt good but a little bigger than you want, then it seems next size down should be perfect. But beware a good thing, it will fit like a Turner and you might need to get some new brakes b/c you'll go faster!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHAHEEB
    If the 07's are a little smaller than the 06' DHR's and an 06' medium felt good but a little bigger than you want, then it seems next size down should be perfect. But beware a good thing, it will fit like a Turner and you might need to get some new brakes b/c you'll go faster!
    I meant felt good as in suspension, but the bike was huge. Turner says that the front triangle will be smaller but that does not mean that the top tube (ie. cockpit) will be tighter. I'm looking for a complete comparison of 06 geometry specs to this 07 geometry specs.

    New brakes are on the way!

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    front center

    I like the thinking of a FC measurement. The front center is easy to aquire from any bike by hanging a plumb line straight down through the BB center and with the help of another person measure the distance from plumbline to underside of head tube on the center line. There really is no other way. Worrying about the hips on a gravity bike is pretty trivial as they are not attached to anything, and as long as the elbows are working the body is totally dynamic, but the relationship of feet to hands is paramount and that can be closely gauged by the FC measurement.

    If the 06 felt a little too big, than the 07 of the SAME designation should be juuust right, as all the 07 are more compact than the 04-06.

    I will post the FC measurements shortly.

    DT
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I will post the FC measurements shortly.

    DT
    Don't forget to include that measurement for the 04-06 for comparison.

    I took the nice side view you posted and overlayed the Giant diagram. I know it's not exactly accurate but if we look at that FC measurement the new DHR small seems to be slightly tighter which is great for me.

    I would like to thank everybody who posted and especially DT for putting up with me. This is the first forum thread I have ever been on were people actually had information and advice to add without it degrading into a giant argument with personal attacks.

    Thanks everybody.

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    excellent info DT! I've been wondering how to determine the FC, figured it was a secret recipe . I think it's good info to know, I can see not feeling like I am riding well and considering my body position in relation to FC and correcting for it.

    I'm totally confident that your bikes will fit me, but it's nice to get some numbers to keep track of changes and effects. It's tough for people who are inbetween sizes and the more numbers the better. I do agree on the hip thing, I had theorized about the static connect points on a bike and the dynamic positioning of the rest of the body, but there is too much going on and it's just unnecessary overanalysis on my part. I also consider that smaller people have less to work with in regards to the amount of change between bent and straight arms.

    It's all good once the brain is off and the bike is rolling .

  24. #24
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    Front Centers

    small 16
    med 17.2
    lrg 18

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I like the thinking of a FC measurement. The front center is easy to aquire from any bike by hanging a plumb line straight down through the BB center and with the help of another person measure the distance from plumbline to underside of head tube on the center line. There really is no other way. Worrying about the hips on a gravity bike is pretty trivial as they are not attached to anything, and as long as the elbows are working the body is totally dynamic, but the relationship of feet to hands is paramount and that can be closely gauged by the FC measurement.

    If the 06 felt a little too big, than the 07 of the SAME designation should be juuust right, as all the 07 are more compact than the 04-06.

    I will post the FC measurements shortly.

    DT
    Yep, like i said, only distance between your feet and hands is relevant. Distance to hips etc is not important as people are differant sizes and differant cockpit set ups (bars, headsets, spacers,stems) will alter this position.

    Dave, can you post a cad image of a large frame if you have one???

    Thanks

    *edit* Is it confirmed a cane creek double barrel will fit? What about an avalanche chubbie?

  26. #26
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    OT....

    DT, is that rendering from Solidworks, Pro-E, or...?

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    large

    I will try to get that up in a day or so.

    Solidworks

    The CC will work, and the Avy has multi options with long eye short bridge and vice versa so it should fit. The Rocco will also fit, BUT, there is a spring retainer conflict with the linkage. In fact as many of you know the Fox is pretty close there. So, there may have to be some custom spring retainers for the CC and the Rocco if many people want them. there always seems to be plenty of adjustability on the threaded collar end, so a mm or 2 taller retainer will not do anything. The thing we focused on was the bridge end as that is incureable if gotten wrong, they all clear up there fine.
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    Last edited by turnerbikes; 11-01-2006 at 06:19 PM. Reason: jpeg of large

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    small 16
    med 17.2
    lrg 18
    What fork and headset is that measured with DT. 8 inch boxxer and chrisking headset???

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    last

    This is the small.

    Fox 40 w King or similar sized headset
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    I like the thinking of a FC measurement. The front center is easy to aquire from any bike by hanging a plumb line straight down through the BB center and with the help of another person measure the distance from plumbline to underside of head tube on the center line. There really is no other way. Worrying about the hips on a gravity bike is pretty trivial as they are not attached to anything, and as long as the elbows are working the body is totally dynamic, but the relationship of feet to hands is paramount and that can be closely gauged by the FC measurement.

    If the 06 felt a little too big, than the 07 of the SAME designation should be juuust right, as all the 07 are more compact than the 04-06.

    I will post the FC measurements shortly.

    DT
    You state the underside of the head tube on center line. The head tubes are different lengths on the different sizes which will change the length from the plumb line to the bars. Wouldn't it make more sense to measure to the topside of the head tube on center line?

    The complete solution is to measure both the horizontal and vertical distance from the center of the BB to the center line of the head tube on the top side. Then the rider adds the stem and bar combo from there to arrive at his/her cockpit fit.

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    so it sounds like i should wait until the 07 comes out. Thanks for the pics by the way too.

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    I THINK all the new modifications are moving this good frame to a newer level, i had already 3 turner dh frame starting from the afterburner then to the old Javelin (ex dhr) then to a 2005 dhr.
    Now i'm waiting this new creature .
    What i have not clear is when it will be available!!!
    anyone know this info?

    Thank you

    Fabio from Italy

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    The new DHR certainly seems like it's going to be substantially better than the previous generation. I hear mid to late January for delivery....

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    Merry Christmas!

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    Jan-Feb 2007

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    and what did we decide the colors were again? Ano grey and chrome?

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    2007 dhr delivery

    Quote Originally Posted by 2w4s
    The new DHR certainly seems like it's going to be substantially better than the previous generation. I hear mid to late January for delivery....
    is that delivery time confirmed by the suspension guru? someone of you already saw a real picture of the bike/frame?

    ciao

    Fabio

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    I was told to expect the new DHR mid March...
    The wait WILL be worth it.
    It's still killing me though.
    We are all waiting patiently (as we can), David.

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    delivery + lower bearing

    Quote Originally Posted by 1soulrider
    I was told to expect the new DHR mid March...
    The wait WILL be worth it.
    It's still killing me though.
    We are all waiting patiently (as we can), David.
    Mid march!!!!
    wow!!!

    somenone you do you know how is the connection on the main pivot (lower one) is that with bearing like the current dhr or in a different way?

    ciao
    Fabio

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabiomtb
    Mid march!!!!
    wow!!!

    somenone you do you know how is the connection on the main pivot (lower one) is that with bearing like the current dhr or in a different way?

    ciao
    Fabio
    Its like the highline (see pic). It has needle bearings (like in the current DHR swinglinks) in the housing with zerk fittings, no more angular contact bearings. 99% sure thats right.
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    yep

    CD is correct.

    SB is correct, gray it is.

    1soulrider is correct. I hope.

    RR, the bottom/center of the HT is the same on all sizes, measured vertically from the BB center. The top of the HT changes in height so the actual FC measurement would be thrown off by the angled back HT. What is critical is how far the feet are from the hands. For Ya'lls' info the relationship from the BB to the seat tube stub is the same from the 06 to the 07. Only the FC and head tube height has changed making for a shorter FC and lower hand position to satisfy the racers. For them that are freaked about the 64.5* HA I steepened it up to 65 for production.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes
    . For them that are freaked about the 64.5* HA I steepened it up to 65 for production.
    Seriously? bummer, the slacker the the faster the better IMO. 65degrees was last years measurement I thought. The complaint is the same on either side, what is .5 degrees anyway right? I think it would corner a little bit better

    Looks like the Ventana Cuervo went from 65degrees all the way to 64degrees. It Doesnt look like anyones complaining there. Well, Maybe the freeriders, but its a race bike.


    In summary, I wasnt freaked out, 64.5* HA is my vote

    P.S. The winter is still rockin here
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    Rear hub/head tube?

    Hi Guys,

    Firstly, I was just about to lay down the cash for an 06DHR to replace/upgrade my Yeti ASX and get back into racing. One bonus of the swap was i could use all my old components, such as 1.5 to 1 1/8 reducer headset, and convert my hadley rear to 12mm through axle.

    That 07 DHR looks sweet but do I notice a 1 1/8 head tube and a 150mm spaced rear hub? If anyone could clarify that up it would be fantastic. Sorry if I missed an ealier post and this is rehashing old stories!

    Cheers
    Michael
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  44. #44
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    yep, 1 1/8 and 150mm hub.

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    Hate to gravedig, but....

    Any word on delivery time for these babies?

    Also, any chance on getting a comparison between the 06 & 07 geo wise rather than a spec list for the 07? My current DHR has a 14.1" BB with no linkage mods so I'm not sure what the BB will be like on the new one.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles
    My current DHR has a 14.1" BB with no linkage mods so I'm not sure what the BB will be like on the new one.
    What fork and tires you got on there?
    STRAVA: Enabling dorks everywhere to get trails shut down........ all for the sake of a race on the internet.

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    I've got a Boxxer WC, zero stack headset, 2.5 Minion DHFs F&R on 721s.

  48. #48
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    Must be my wheels. Switch the fork to an 888 slammed below the minimun and a 2.7 maxxis on the front with 321s and mine's 14.6
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    Geez thats weird. What's the difference in height between your 888 and a Boxxer? Also, not that I'd expect it to make any difference but mine is a Franken-bike with an 04 rear end on an 05 front triangle.

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    New DHR cancelled?

    Got word from my local bike shop that the new design of the DHR has been cancelled. A new updated design is in the works for '08.

    Someone please confirm this.

  51. #51
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    Toodles, your bike sags at least 1/2 of an inch of shock travel under its own weight which is not normal. I reckon your fox needs a service.

    For the record, mine is 14 with a 2.75x9.125 avy (giving 7.8 inchs rear travel), 2.5 minions, 721's, 8inch boxxer WC and cane creek double XC lower cup.
    Last edited by cave dweller; 01-09-2007 at 08:29 PM.

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    Nah it doesn't sag like that anymore hey... I'll double check the measurement once I stop pretending to do work and go home.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by toodles
    Geez thats weird. What's the difference in height between your 888 and a Boxxer? Also, not that I'd expect it to make any difference but mine is a Franken-bike with an 04 rear end on an 05 front triangle.

    I've never measured the a-c of the fork slammed but I'd assume the two forks are pretty close.

    Maybe it's because my swingarm is an 03 and my front triangle is an 04

    Just throwing a 2.5 tire on mine lowers it though. It's amazing how much difference a tire can make. But 14.5 is the published number if I remember correctly.
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    Yeah it'd be 14.3" no sag or anything... just measured it.

    I want my 07 now :P

  55. #55
    mtbr member
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    27

    Hope delivery 07 dhr

    Quote Originally Posted by cave dweller
    Jan-Feb 2007
    still confirmed for jan-feb 2007 ??

    i start having some doubt becuase i only saw 3D images so i guess still on prototype stage unfortunately!!

    do you have further news??

    ciao

    Fabio

  56. #56
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    Reputation: 1soulrider's Avatar
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    Jan 2004
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    1,775
    Last I heard the DHR was still expected March-ish.
    I have been hearing uncornfirmed rumors it may be later.....I really hope not.
    David may chime in and give us the details, otherwise I may have to call in and get the full update.

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cave dweller's Avatar
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    Feb 2005
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    363
    Quote Originally Posted by fabiomtb
    still confirmed for jan-feb 2007 ??

    i start having some doubt becuase i only saw 3D images so i guess still on prototype stage unfortunately!!

    do you have further news??

    ciao

    Fabio
    Nah, like soul rider i have since heard late march, i posted that other post in early November last year if you look at the date.

    I really, really hate the way mtbr sets up these forums, so much better when everything is in order of posting, this grouping things sucks ass.

  58. #58
    mtbr member
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    2,612

    07-08

    Your dealer is way off. I am stoking the fire as much as possible in Portland to get the frames here in late March, or as soon as possible whenever that is. It has been tough on SAPA and us with the revisions that I did on the Spot, RFX, Highline, Sultan, and the DHR. I am sorry that I bit off more rev's than I should have, but it will be worth the wait.

    DT

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