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  1. #1
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    Whatís going to happen when...

    So as more members join my (your) local chapter and start fancying emtbs or current members add emtbs to their stable, will we not see more advocating for emtbs on MUTís? Also, what about someone in the chapter that knows someone with a Levo and wants to ride with them? Our local bike shops are members and support ďsomeĒ trail maintenance days.

    Will there not be more pressure on LM for access? Am I missing something? (Please donít tell me, ďUh, duh it has a motor)
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  2. #2
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    My chapter maintains a NPS trail system so they would have to deal with the NPS and have them change their policy. Other trail systems are city parks. As the trails are built and maintained by mountain bikers, I would say they have the biggest influence. Which is why ebikers should try to work with mtbers rather than constantly argue with them that ebikes are bicycles and should automatically be allowed wherever mtbs are allowed. Not meaning you, more those new posters that come on, argue the above and then manage to eventually get themselves banned.

    I would think in regards to the NPS trails, mtbers would be the least of ebikers worries. Trying to sell the idea to hikers will be even more difficult.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    My chapter maintains a NPS trail system so they would have to deal with the NPS and have them change their policy. Other trail systems are city parks. As the trails are built and maintained by mountain bikers, I would say they have the biggest influence. Which is why ebikers should try to work with mtbers rather than constantly argue with them that ebikes are bicycles and should automatically be allowed wherever mtbs are allowed. Not meaning you, more those new posters that come on, argue the above and then manage to eventually get themselves banned.

    I would think in regards to the NPS trails, mtbers would be the least of ebikers worries. Trying to sell the idea to hikers will be even more difficult.
    Most ebikers I have encountered have been from an older age group. The kind of people that pay taxes, attention, and vote. I don't think it unreasonable to see more participation from the ebike crowd for MTB advocacy in the near future.

  4. #4
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    Cycling is the new golf - Business Insider

    Don't forget the yuppies. That article is about road bikes but certainly it applies to MTBs and soon e-MTBs.

    I think e-MTB will continue to develop as a "luxury" segment. We're only getting started with the Pivot Shuttle @ $10K.

    Those fancy lightweight batteries that we discussed in earlier posts - they'll exist, just not for the masses. $15-25K bikes will have them.

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  5. #5
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    It's a chicken and egg thing IMO.

    Three out of the five local LMs/Park systems have reviewed their ebike policies over the past year or more and have decided to allow Class 1 on bike paths and no emtbs on non motorized. To do this, they had to rewrite their codes, which happens infrequently, so regardless of any sort of public wishes, I would expect them to stay in place for the next decade or so.

    The fourth, the USFS, already has their policy in place, the fifth, State Parks, is allowing Class 1 on their trails as a provisional measure, they are still considering what to do moving forward.

    As such, outside of motorized trails, there are very little legal places to ride emtbs locally and the LBS have backed off of aggressively trying to sell them.

    My volunteer org, like many I suspect, is run by a small group of core people, none of which wants to see emtbs on the local trails, even though several are commited users of ebikes as transportation. We're all in agreement that they're great for that. While I'm sure there are pro emtb riders out there who support our org, we've never heard from them, it's 100% in the opposite. So, for any emtb proponent to have an effect on our positions, they'd have to come help drive the bus, a couple of people posting on our facebook page, or showing up for a workday or at a public meeting isn't going to change our policy. If you expect the "industry" to do it for you, when the public meetings for ebike access were being held, not one of the local bike shops were involved, they couldn't be bothered I guess, even though they'd send people out the door with "Sure, they're just mtbs, you all can figure out where to ride them".

    There will have to be a significant emtb riding population to sway policy here, either through their own advocacy group, or they'd have to take over ours, both of which are possible, but they'd have to be committed. So, how do you build that group if there isn't a legal place to ride and emtbs aren't really a thing where you live?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    It's a chicken and egg thing IMO.

    Three out of the five local LMs/Park systems have reviewed their ebike policies over the past year or more and have decided to allow Class 1 on bike paths and no emtbs on non motorized. To do this, they had to rewrite their codes, which happens infrequently, so regardless of any sort of public wishes, I would expect them to stay in place for the next decade or so.

    The forth, the USFS, already has their policy in place, the fith, State Parks, is allowing Class 1 on their trails as a provisional measure, they are still considering what to do moving forward.

    As such, outside of motorized trails, there are very little legal places to ride emtbs locally and the LBS have backed off of aggressively trying to sell them.

    My volunteer org, like many I suspect, is run by a small group of core people, none of which wants to see emtbs on the local trails, even though several are commited users of ebikes as transportation. We're all in agreement that they're great for that. While I'm sure there are pro emtb riders out there who support our org, we've never heard from them, it's 100% in the opposite. So, for any emtb proponent to have an effect on our positions, they'd have to come help drive the bus, a couple of people posting on our facebook page, or showing up for a workday or at a public meeting isn't going to change our policy. If you expect the "industry" to do it for you, when the public meetings for ebike access were being held, not one of the local bike shops were involved, they couldn't be bothered I guess, even though they'd send people out the door with "Sure, they're just mtbs, you all can figure out where to ride them".

    There will have to be a significant emtb riding population to sway policy here, either through their own advocacy group, or they'd have to take over ours, both of which are possible, but they'd have to be committed. So, how do you build that group if there isn't a legal place to ride and emtbs aren't really a thing where you live?
    True, true. If theyíre not big where you live, then yeah. On the flip side according to some posters here, certain states allow them and havenít had major issues..yet? Time will tell. I see more and more Levoís out and about. I know in areas of Upstate NY the mtb scene is not huge and people ride them wheverer. Where Iím at in SC, itís going to be a battle for sure.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantastic79 View Post
    Most ebikers I have encountered have been from an older age group. The kind of people that pay taxes, attention, and vote. I don't think it unreasonable to see more participation from the ebike crowd for MTB advocacy in the near future.
    There are plenty of older mountain bikers, hikers, and equestrians that pay taxes, attention and vote; a lot more than there will ever be ebikers. I would rethink that plan if I were you.
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    Arguable, but some of the bike shop owners that I'm acquainted with think the opposition will abate as MTB enthusiasts "age out". The numerous individuals that I've talked to on trails seem open to this and a few have already converted. We'll see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    There are plenty of older mountain bikers, hikers, and equestrians that pay taxes, attention and vote; a lot more than there will ever be ebikers. I would rethink that plan if I were you.
    Yeah, the 'I pay taxes so give me trails' angle has failed miserably around here.

    I don't believe our regional advocacy group, NEMBA, will ever directly push for e-bike access. I'm pretty sure they'd lose the support of many, many members if they did. I do see working hand in hand with dedicated e-bike advocacy groups on certain projects in the future as a possibility, that is, if a group like that is ever successfully established.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    True, true. If theyíre not big where you live, then yeah. On the flip side according to some posters here, certain states allow them and havenít had major issues..yet? Time will tell. I see more and more Levoís out and about. I know in areas of Upstate NY the mtb scene is not huge and people ride them wheverer. Where Iím at in SC, itís going to be a battle for sure.
    In my area of western NY, they are banned from the legally accessible trails currently.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    In my area of western NY, they are banned from the legally accessible trails currently.
    Yeah, I think WNY mtb scene is larger than Central NY.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yeah, the 'I pay taxes so give me trails' angle has failed miserably around here.
    I don't think that's the angle he's referring to. Rather, he's saying that the e-MTB segment at the moment largely consists of folks who are aware of their civic responsibilities, and it's not unrealistic to foresee some (not all) of these folks getting involved with e-MTB advocacy. This is in response to some other posts here predicting the perpetual absence of e-MTBers from trail access meetings.

    Also, the battle has historically been confined to the trails themselves - hiker vs biker. E-bikes present new angles because they're "green". One possible argument is why allow an individual to drive their gas cars to the trailhead and give him/her access to the trails, while banning another individual who's able to ride his/her e-bike to the trailhead? Who's doing more damage to the environment? A gallon of gas has the electrical energy equivalent of 33.7 kwh, according to the EPA. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_...ine_equivalent) A car that does 33.7 mpg thus consumes 1000 watt hours per mile. That's two Levo batteries, in one mile.

    A counter argument is that e-bike owners still drive to the trailheads, so the point's moot.

    Regardless, there will be much arguing back and forth, and it's going to get complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    I don't think that's the angle he's referring to. Rather, he's saying that the e-MTB segment at the moment largely consists of folks who are aware of their civic responsibilities, and it's not unrealistic to foresee some (not all) of these folks getting involved with e-MTB advocacy. This is in response to some other posts here predicting the perpetual absence of e-MTBers from trail access meetings.

    Also, the battle has historically been confined to the trails themselves - hiker vs biker. E-bikes present new angles because they're "green". One possible argument is why allow an individual to drive their gas cars to the trailhead and give him/her access to the trails, while banning another individual who's able to ride his/her e-bike to the trailhead? Who's doing more damage to the environment? A gallon of gas has the electrical energy equivalent of 33.7 kwh, according to the EPA. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_...ine_equivalent) A car that does 33.7 mpg thus consumes 1000 watt hours per mile. That's two Levo batteries, in one mile.

    A counter argument is that e-bike owners still drive to the trailheads, so the point's moot.

    Regardless, there will be much arguing back and forth, and it's going to get complicated.
    Please tell me again how an e bike with a motor that needs recharging is greener than one fueled by my breakfast of oatmeal? I can pedal to 100 miles of trails from my house, some with short pave connections. I do all the time. Nothing greener than human powered. I'm going to eat 3 squares a day, pedaling or not. Maybe you're off the grid fully using wind/solar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Also, the battle has historically been confined to the trails themselves - hiker vs biker. E-bikes present new angles because they're "green". One possible argument is why allow an individual to drive their gas cars to the trailhead and give him/her access to the trails, while banning another individual who's able to ride his/her e-bike to the trailhead? Who's doing more damage to the environment? A gallon of gas has the electrical energy equivalent of 33.7 kwh, according to the EPA. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_...ine_equivalent) A car that does 33.7 mpg thus consumes 1000 watt hours per mile. That's two Levo batteries, in one mile.

    A counter argument is that e-bike owners still drive to the trailheads, so the point's moot.

    Regardless, there will be much arguing back and forth, and it's going to get complicated.
    While this sort of philosophical sidebar may be interesting to some to discuss n an online forum, I can't see it being any sort of conversation that will take place in any actual conversation with LMs regarding trail access.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Please tell me again how an e bike with a motor that needs recharging is greener than one fueled by my breakfast of oatmeal?
    Can't tell you that "again" because it was never said. The hypothetical argument has nothing to do with you.

    It was referring to those those pesky, gas guzzling hikers, speeding to the trailheads in their European luxury cars. Lost count of how many road cyclists and small animals they ran over on the way there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    While this sort of philosophical sidebar may be interesting to some to discuss n an online forum, I can't see it being any sort of conversation that will take place in any actual conversation with LMs regarding trail access.
    Me neither, but I could see such a conversation happening with elected officials who may decide to step in and flex their muscle.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutch View Post
    Will there not be more pressure on LM for access? Am I missing something? (Please donít tell me, ďUh, duh it has a motor)
    Folks in our club ride dirt bikes/ATVs and have for years. Nobody has suggested the human powered bike club advocate for dirt bike/ATV [low powered of course] access to human powered biking and hiking trails.

    That just does not compute.

    When my older mountain bike friends can no longer ride human powered bikes on trails we'll go ride MUPs and logging roads on whatever is legal for them to ride that they want to ride.
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  18. #18
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    Happy for you and your club.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricTheDood View Post
    Me neither, but I could see such a conversation happening with elected officials who may decide to step in and flex their muscle.
    Maybe. I don't see it though.
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