This stuff makes me crazy <rant>- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    This stuff makes me crazy <rant>

    City park, our club is in the beginner stages of MOU and freeride park development, and the freaking kids (?) are out there doing this stuff. The persons we need to reach the most about what we are doing are the ones that aren't listening or paying attention.
    Note the sticks and dirt piled up for a jump landing How about the crater next to the landing? I really like the berm trail just gouged into the meadow /rant OK, think positive: as we establish a legitimate biking presence hopefully we can bring everyone on board...
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica
    City park, our club is in the beginner stages of MOU and freeride park development, and the freaking kids (?) are out there doing this stuff. The persons we need to reach the most about what we are doing are the ones that aren't listening or paying attention.
    Note the sticks and dirt piled up for a jump landing How about the crater next to the landing? I really like the berm trail just gouged into the meadow /rant OK, think positive: as we establish a legitimate biking presence hopefully we can bring everyone on board...
    Yeah I hear you. I remember Gino dozed a bunch of that at Beacon 4-5 years ago.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica
    City park, our club is in the beginner stages of MOU and freeride park development, and the freaking kids (?) are out there doing this stuff. The persons we need to reach the most about what we are doing are the ones that aren't listening or paying attention.
    Note the sticks and dirt piled up for a jump landing How about the crater next to the landing? I really like the berm trail just gouged into the meadow /rant OK, think positive: as we establish a legitimate biking presence hopefully we can bring everyone on board...
    I would wait for the kids to show up, and then talk with them, and attempt to bring them on board, show them plans, get their input....If they feel they have "ownership" for its development, they might be less inclined to do what they have done...If need be get them involved in building the park, so they understand proper building tech....

    I have worked over the last 2 years, to get our locals kids on board to work the fundraising for their skate park, however, our city, wants to have no expenses on this...They support a skate park, but won't pay for it...And currently it is stalled out...Change/growth is not popular among the elders....Persistence will pay off....

    Very sad....GLuck
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  4. #4
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    got to look at the positive side of this, the kids got energy they need to burn. It also helps show the land managers that you need to hurry. It's good to see they are interested and not afraid of hard labor.

    I wish there was more of them...

    Make them watch Cease and Desist so they understand that if they are going to build illegally they have to do it where no one will see it or find it. (until the paramedics arrive ).

    should add that I am one of those kids, age 43 .

  5. #5
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    New question here. gotta question or two

    Hi airwreck,

    I'm guessing "Cease and Desist" is a video?

    Formica, would the park authorities allow you to post some signs explaining why folks shouldn't be building and with contact info for your group? That might work better with the demographic group that does this stuff, as opposed to just tearing the stuff down or other enforcement without explanation.

    My observation are that this kind of stuff can be hard to nail down because it happens while those of us with day jobs are at our desks, and happens in areas that are poorly patrolled.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
    Hi airwreck,

    I'm guessing "Cease and Desist" is a video?
    Correct, latest from BC/NS original Digger.
    lots of commentary on illegal building and the techniques they are using.
    this is straight from the source kind of stuff and if you agree or not it should be required viewing for any one trying to deal with this situation.
    It doesn't provide any answers for working effectively with land managers, but it does provide some insight and the creativity that goes into the trails in the video is impressive.

  7. #7
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    I have 2 words for you: bear traps.
    And is there a link to that video or is it a DVD/VHS?

  8. #8
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    thanks for letting me rant.

    Piano wire and bear traps are not bad ideas, in fantasy-land.

    In all seriousness, some good comments. We are still very much in the foundation laying stages of our relationship with the Powers That Be for this property, so we are trying to not go faster in our desire to do things than governemntal speed will allow. I like the idea of posting signs, but that will require clearance. We need to make sure our mapping project is OK first before we ask for anything else

    I think just hanging out on the property on the weekends and talking to riders, giving them our website, talking to them, being positive is the way to do. Rocky Rider, you are a nice big guy... you want to join me in case I run into some "attitude"?

    I know that once we get things more formalized that we are currently, we've got the local outdoors writer ready to do a newspaper piece on us. Slowly, but surely, we are getting the word out that the oppurtunity exists for LEGAL bike development... but jeez, it's an excruciatingly slow process.

    ~f.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica
    thanks for letting me rant.

    Piano wire and bear traps are not bad ideas, in fantasy-land.

    In all seriousness, some good comments. We are still very much in the foundation laying stages of our relationship with the Powers That Be for this property, so we are trying to not go faster in our desire to do things than governemntal speed will allow. I like the idea of posting signs, but that will require clearance. We need to make sure our mapping project is OK first before we ask for anything else

    I think just hanging out on the property on the weekends and talking to riders, giving them our website, talking to them, being positive is the way to do. Rocky Rider, you are a nice big guy... you want to join me in case I run into some "attitude"?

    I know that once we get things more formalized that we are currently, we've got the local outdoors writer ready to do a newspaper piece on us. Slowly, but surely, we are getting the word out that the oppurtunity exists for LEGAL bike development... but jeez, it's an excruciatingly slow process.

    ~f.
    I just ran across this in another forum and thought you'd find it interesting. I agree with you and I guess to some extent I'm playing devil's advocate by posting this but thought you should see it nonetheless. What disturbs me most is the moderators comments:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=170405

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRider
    I just ran across this in another forum and thought you'd find it interesting. I agree with you and I guess to some extent I'm playing devil's advocate by posting this but thought you should see it nonetheless. What disturbs me most is the moderators comments:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=170405

    I saw that same post, different comments, on ridemonkey.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRider
    Proof that youth is wasted on the young...

  12. #12
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    Dang kids!

    Ya I agree I don't like it and I think it looks ugly but don't a lot of trails look ugly after a good rain or two??

    Problem is that these kids need to get out and do something. What are there chances of having anything like this approved by any arm of the government?? Slim and none. I would rather have them mess up a little property for something as positive as cycling vs. doing all the other stuff they can get into that is more destructive to them and society in general.

    "Go educate themselves".Let me give you a little education. Trail access is going to decline big time for a number of reasons and the biggest reason of all is the anti anything crowd who nobody ever voted for, is making all these access decisions. This is not democracy or representation it is hi jacking.

  13. #13
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    well actually..... this partcular piece of property is in the middle of "talks" with bike club and city park to develop it for mountain biking. Since I posted that, we've been able to connect with a bunch of the fringe ( as in stay on the fringe and observe what the club is trying to do, not fringe of society riders who will be more in a position to connect with the diggers hopefully educate them, round up their energy and channel it positively.

    sorry I'm so verbose this a.m.!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    Dang kids!

    ... I would rather have them mess up a little property for something as positive as cycling vs. doing all the other stuff they can get into that is more destructive to them and society in general.

    "Go educate themselves".Let me give you a little education. Trail access is going to decline big time for a number of reasons and the biggest reason of all is the anti anything crowd who nobody ever voted for, is making all these access decisions. This is not democracy or representation it is hi jacking.
    For me, the problem from these wildcat trails and TTFs is the lack of respect for private property. The idea that we as the public own public lands is a myth. Public land has an owner - the government land manager. I believe the very foundation of civilization rests on the respect of private property rights. Especially, if you understand the individual's body and thoughts as his/her own private property.

    We should get permission from a land owner before riding or "enhancing" his/her property. We need to work with the land managers or our "group" identity will be identified as renegade and the lawful ones barred from entry. Laws don't bound the unlawful. Thus, it is up to the lawful to bring the unlawful energy into the fold and use it to accomplish lasting results. We will accomplish most by working within the system. Working outside the system is a drastic step. Current access is not so limited that we need to take that step at this time.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpmbt

    We should get permission from a land owner before riding or "enhancing" his/her property. We need to work with the land managers or our "group" identity will be identified as renegade and the lawful ones barred from entry. Laws don't bound the unlawful. Thus, it is up to the lawful to bring the unlawful energy into the fold and use it to accomplish lasting results. We will accomplish most by working within the system. Working outside the system is a drastic step. Current access is not so limited that we need to take that step at this time.
    A good park manager will listen and work with users, but it is most definaltey a two way street. A manager will be a lot more open to trails built in a sustainable manner, and stunts built with a plan than stuff just "put up" on land. They will be unhappy about stunts built out of crap wood, nailed into trees and blocking off trails. If you can sit down and show them a plan for building that encompasses enviromental concerns, sound building techniques, and a respect for where they are coming from, you'll get a lot further than if you just hope they don't find out what you've done. Listening and respecting thier concerns is a really key part of the process.

    re reading that, I realize it's wishful thinking for some situations, but so far it's working for us.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica
    well actually..... this partcular piece of property is in the middle of "talks" with bike club and city park to develop it for mountain biking. Since I posted that, we've been able to connect with a bunch of the fringe ( as in stay on the fringe and observe what the club is trying to do, not fringe of society riders who will be more in a position to connect with the diggers hopefully educate them, round up their energy and channel it positively.

    sorry I'm so verbose this a.m.!
    That is assuming you can find a "good park manager" who is willing to listen or even has the authority to make a decision like this.
    You speak of public lands being private lands. I guess I don't understand what you are saying. I do know lots of park people who do think they own public lands and act like it. They forget who is financing the land. Population, pollution, and lot's of other things are a a greater concern vs. a few kids going out and trying to have a good time on their bikes. By the time they were to get anything built "the right way" they will be old and gray.
    Give me some examples of "good park managers" who have allowed these kids to build courses like these and where?
    We had kids on the street of our town with their skateboards and they got in a huge fight with the local businesses. Well they finally worked on putting in a skateboard park about a mile from town and then they couldn't find volunteers to run it and they couldn't afford the insurance to keep it open. $100,000 of public money down the drain. Instead we could have worked with the kids to have them do it in town where it wouldn't be a problem.

  17. #17
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    Boise Dirt Jump Park
    http://www.cityofboise.org/Departmen.../page3201.aspx

    Blackrock Freeride Org
    http://blackrockfreeride.org

    Post Canyon Park/Gorge Freeride Assn.
    http://www.gfra.org/index.shtml

    Collonade Park, Seattle
    http://www.imba.com/resources/successes/colonnade.html

    local skateparks that have set the precedent user group volunteering and taking on projecst.
    http://www.hillyardskatepark.com/utf_spokane_skatepark/
    http://www.hillyardskatepark.com/

    for starters. I'm sure you can find more sucesses if you seach the IMBA site.

    Yes, parks are "public" in that they are funded and maintained through various branches of the governments and are for public use. That doens't give users the license to do whatever they want, when they feel like it, to a given peice of property with out communication with the agency that manages it. Different properties are managed with different end uses in mind ( recreation, conservation etc) and it does well to find out how an agency manages a certain piece of property when you are doing your homework on it. A piece that is managed for recreation and not conservation is more likely to have the potential for being developed recreationally, and I don't mean paved parking lots. If you can frame your vision so that it somehow connects with the agency vision, that's how you get somewhere.

    Our skateparks were built with an investment of money raised by the users, who set a lot of precedent for how kids can get it together. Once they raised a certain amount of $ then the city and grants kicked in When groups get to participate in the process they typically show a lot more ownership.
    We are lucky here to have the skate park precendent. The parks people have seen how a "special use" segment of the population can get it together to take initiative to make something happen. Skateparks have also laid the groundwork for how recreation liability issues are viewed by park managers in our city. The kids themselves have demonstrated a lot of repsonsibity for self policing them selves, too.

    just my 2 cents. Sorry you are so frustrated. I get that way sometimes too.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica
    Boise Dirt Jump Park
    http://www.cityofboise.org/Departmen.../page3201.aspx

    Blackrock Freeride Org
    http://blackrockfreeride.org

    Post Canyon Park/Gorge Freeride Assn.
    http://www.gfra.org/index.shtml

    local skateparks that have set the precedent for mountain bike parks
    http://www.hillyardskatepark.com/utf_spokane_skatepark/
    http://www.hillyardskatepark.com/

    for starters. I'm sure you can find more sucesses if you seach the IMBA site.
    Good comeback. Any in California?? Also how about all the other towns in the U.S.? A few here and there is not a trend in my opinion. Kudos for those that put it together though.

    We have tried local trail access (much less threatening than free riding and north shore type riding) in our community over the last 2 decades with the same result every time. And the result was not good. Good land managers are the very rare exception and not the rule and that is what frustrates me.

  19. #19
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    well we added another one in boise

    Quote Originally Posted by richwolf
    Good comeback. Any in California?? Also how about all the other towns in the U.S.? A few here and there is not a trend in my opinion. Kudos for those that put it together though.

    We have tried local trail access (much less threatening than free riding and north shore type riding) in our community over the last 2 decades with the same result every time. And the result was not good. Good land managers are the very rare exception and not the rule and that is what frustrates me.
    The rock island trail, it turned out mighty cool and the freeriders have really been very excited about it! Here are some pics during the build, we are riding it now or at least trying to ride it.
    http://www.spudhucksters.com/3-12-rockislands2.html
    Plus we have another freeride trail currently under the snow and have permission to build at our local ski resort. Lots of energy and a desire to add on to what we have... And now we have the local towns competing to provide a site for a velodrome/freeride park/ shortcourse track.

    Start with something small and build on the energy and the kids and adults will come around.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpmbt
    For me, the problem from these wildcat trails and TTFs is the lack of respect for private property. The idea that we as the public own public lands is a myth. Public land has an owner - the government land manager. I believe the very foundation of civilization rests on the respect of private property rights. Especially, if you understand the individual's body and thoughts as his/her own private property.

    We should get permission from a land owner before riding or "enhancing" his/her property. We need to work with the land managers or our "group" identity will be identified as renegade and the lawful ones barred from entry. Laws don't bound the unlawful. Thus, it is up to the lawful to bring the unlawful energy into the fold and use it to accomplish lasting results. We will accomplish most by working within the system. Working outside the system is a drastic step. Current access is not so limited that we need to take that step at this time.

    You are wrong in my opinion. Who is this government land owner you are talking about??? That is the problem. These land managers think they know it all and do think they have ownership. Where is the representation here. These people are not elected and the rules and regulations are usually not determined by an elected official.
    Right now there is a serious lack of outdoor recreation opportunities for kids other than organized sports which is not for everyone. We need more unorganized sports in this country and more places to do it not less.
    I am happy that a few places have stepped up to the plate and done something for the kids and the adults but most have not. My local experience with "land managers" has been abysmal and this experience is the rule more than the exception.
    Just give the kids drugs, ipods and computer games. Oh ya we all ready have. I guess they have been well taken care of.
    How many kids in your local community ride their bikes to school? We are losing a whole generation to biking and it's positive benefits because we have not provided safe access for them.

  21. #21
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    Rich, I think you need to move out of Socal. There's lots of good things happening out there.


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by formica
    Rich, I think you need to move out of Socal. There's lots of good things happening out there.

    No I am staying here. I just ride the trails I want and call it a day.

    The love it or leave it crowd can move if they want to, but not me.
    I just worry about the next generation coming up. Not nearly enough is being done for them. And to say I haven't made attempts is false. I have and still am. I just see the brick wall that is in place and I can't spend all my free time chipping away at it.

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