Ideas on the best way to ask riders not to climb DH biased trail.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Ideas on the best way to ask riders not to climb DH biased trail.

    Some old legacy trails have been reworked to maximize the DH and we are looking for practical ideas on how to effectively ask riders not to climb.

    Plenty of proper climbing trails nearby but there is always a strava segment going up things no matter how ridiculous.

    The reason is the closing speed is too great, the sight lines are "ok" if riders are using them.

    Since we cannot designate the trail as "one way" with the land manager, or even guarantee compliance if it were, we are asking for your effective creativity and feedback.

    Turn style would work.... though it's not practical.
    best thought to date is very short worded signage that says...... ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    If it doesn't say that, then you got nothing.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratocaster View Post
    Since we cannot designate the trail as "one way" with the land manager
    I think you have your answer right there. Without support from the management you wont be able to implement signage or enforcement.

    No matter what you or your buddies think, and trust me i know your pain, if it is a Multi-use and Multi-direction trail you have to treat it that way. Please be a good trail steward and don't bomb the trail as if it is Directional.


    If you absolutely must get your GNAR on and strava bro the trail, at the very least post other riders at the intersections of the trail to warn other users of incoming fast traffic.

    Please don't hurt anyone who is using the trail legally and climbing up what you consider a downhill only trail.
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  5. #5
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    Yes, we try to steward. That's why a "climbing maximized" trail is next to it.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratocaster View Post
    Yes, we try to steward. That's why a "climbing maximized" trail is next to it.
    If the land managers have allowed or created a trail that is DH oriented and a Climbing oriented trail "next to it", what is their reasoning for making them both Multi-directional? where exactly is this at? What group is the land manager from? Have you actually been to trail planning meetings with them? are you involved in a local trail building group that regularly interfaces with the manager?
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  7. #7
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    Making unclimbable by most, or at least not remotely enjoyable to climb to most, and then no signage will be needed.

  8. #8
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    ^i think that worked well until E-bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    ^i think that worked well until E-bikes.

    That's a good point.

    That said, the trails I like to climb would be even harder on an e-bike. Too tight and techy to hump a heavy beast like that around.

  10. #10
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    Yes, yes and yes. I operative concept is that these are modified legacy trails. The land manager is good, however there will be no enforcement, we can't even get the dirt bikes and quads out when it's illegal. and we're trying to solicit creative and practical feedback.
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  11. #11
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    put a sign at the top warning DH'ers that it is a 2 way trail
    and climbers have priority,


    so if they want to bomb it they'd better pre-ride it and have someone stand on
    the lower part of trail ready to warn DH'ers of any climbers.

    otherwise don't -bomb- it be prepared to give way to a climber.
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  12. #12
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    How long have people been climbing these trails? What caused the need for the direction change? They might not change their mind on how to ride it just because someone told them they should be going down it now.
    Who decided it should be downhill, and under what authority? Are you looking for creative ways to circumvent the land manager's decision regarding one way trails?
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  13. #13
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    Put a dodgy ass sign written in blood with a finger "DH trail only! Dont climb...."

    That'l scare them off.

  14. #14
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    Jumps and berms and drops. Natural features that can really only be ridden one way. Couple that with bells on your handlebars.
    . . . . . . . .

  15. #15
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    If you land manager won't allow a true one way trail will they allow "recommended directional" signage? If not, perhaps a warning along with a suggestion of the appropriate trail to use for up hill?

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    If you absolutely must get your GNAR on and strava bro the trail...
    Is having fun by going fast now strava bro-ing a trail?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Is having fun by going fast now strava bro-ing a trail?
    Some people just ride to commune with nature. Me, I like to go fast. If I wanted to go slow, I'd hike.
    . . . . . . . .

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    If you land manager won't allow a true one way trail will they allow "recommended directional" signage? If not, perhaps a warning along with a suggestion of the appropriate trail to use for up hill?

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    We have a number of signs like this (well, smaller) at the bottom of most of popular downhills. The trails are still multi-directional and multi-use. The idea is to inform people who would make a different decision if they know that they’re likely to encounter downhill riders.

  19. #19
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    There is no directional change, it was always dh oriented, no one even thought to climb it until strava showed up with the desperation to kom a seldom used segment.
    Last edited by Stratocaster; 04-08-2020 at 10:12 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Thanks to those who addressed the actual question. We got some good ideas.

  21. #21
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    I believe there's a way to get segments removed from Strava (for safety/land-use issues).

    If you remove the climbing direction Strava segment then people might start using the climbing trails to get KOMs.

    However, as others have said, if your land-manager doesn't want one-way trails then no matter how much you want it they are officially two-way trails.

    You could try a few drops with no cheater-line around them or wall-ride style berms around switchbacks that make sections essentially un-climbable, even to e-bikes.

    Signs at the bottom that don't specifically forbid climbing the trail but sound like they do might be an option as well "Please use trail X to climb" or something. That way you're not saying anything is forbidden but it reads that way.

    At the end of the day you could pay someone to stand at the bottom of the trail and direct riders and you'll still get the one or two idiots that feel the need to be contrary. I was at an organized XC race where there were signs up everywhere and there was an idiot who decided he was going to walk his dog off-leash on the racecourse, putting his dog and racers at risk, because "that's where he always walks his dog". You just can't fix stupid like that. If the location is open to the public then it's the responsibility of the downhill riders to control their speed. A climbing rider is just as likely to get hurt if you ride into them as the downhill rider in front of you who crashed in the trail.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surestick Malone View Post
    You could try a few drops with no cheater-line around them
    a legit dh trail should be unclimbable on a bike or an ebike by nature...


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    If you land manager won't allow a true one way trail will they allow "recommended directional" signage? If not, perhaps a warning along with a suggestion of the appropriate trail to use for up hill?

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    Since you're looking for legit ideas, this is the best I've seen. This is on a flow trail at dupont, which is top 5 in the country, but it's still multidirectional.

    As others have said, make a hike a bike section if you're climbing, but you can still ride down it. A local hiking group did that unintentionally and it receives very little use both ways unless you're ready to literally ride down a cliff.

  24. #24
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    Paint some directional arrows on rocks. Subtle but has the desired effect. We have a few trails at Brandywine near us that are primarily one direction, and this helped.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    a legit dh trail should be unclimbable on a bike or an ebike by nature...
    What Mike said.
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

  26. #26
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    A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph. You should be able to stop in time.
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  27. #27
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    If the trail is multidirectional, You should probably not add signs to discourage uphill travel. Otherwise, you're asking for bike access issues. You should go through the land manager. Maybe offer to build a completely different "downhill trail."

  28. #28
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    We have one trail here that has a few sections on which people reach the highest speeds of just about any local trail. It's well-known to locals primarily as a DH route but the USFS won't allow it to be designated as a one-way. The fastest sections have several jumps, berms, and drops that hint at the primary use, but some people insist on pedaling or running up it, either out of defiance or just lack of awareness. There is an adjacent "climbing line" that's sort of inviting for people ascending, hoping they take the hint. Would you be allowed to create adjacent climbing lines on the fastest, most risky sections?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph. You should be able to stop in time.
    How is this relevant?

    I'm not part of the discussed trail system but I can regularly hit 25mph on our toughest downhills. The grade and rocky terrain makes it pretty difficult to stop. In summer when foliage grows back I slow down due to sight lines but it would be nice if I didn't need to like a directional trail.

    Seems like consensus in their local area already considers it a downhill specific trail. It's just a few people who are going against the grain and potentially ruining it for the intended downhill use of the trail.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph. You should be able to stop in time.
    That depends on the land manager.

    One of the OP’s constraints that’s getting overlooked in this specific conversation is that these are legacy trails- they are likely limited in what they can do insofar as designing a DH trail that isn’t climbable.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph.
    Hmmmm. I exceed that speed all the time.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    If you land manager won't allow a true one way trail will they allow "recommended directional" signage? If not, perhaps a warning along with a suggestion of the appropriate trail to use for up hill?

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    I like this idea a lot.

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Hmmmm. I exceed that speed all the time.
    Me too, if I have a line of sight, but theres one trail here the shuttle bunnies love to drop. Thing is, it was built by Cub Scouts and is frequented by hikers and equestrians. I ride up it on my single speed. Theres a road that goes up to the top of the trail and on to a fire lookout, but its deadly with kids playing ralley car.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Seems like consensus in their local area already considers it a downhill specific trail. It's just a few people who are going against the grain and potentially ruining it for the intended downhill use of the trail.
    I beg to differ. It sounds like the consensus is that it's a multidirectional trail and a few people are going against the grain and potentially ruining it for intended multidirectional use of the trail.

    The real problem is that bikes and riders today are too damn good.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    A multi use trail has a speed liimit of 15mph. You should be able to stop in time.
    Does anyone have a realistic feel for a speed limit on a bike? For me that's 24kmh. On the flat I'm not going that speed but I'd say on a decent descent I would. But I'd have no idea unless I stared at my Garmin.

    Build a few small step downs. Just a two or three feet with no option to go around or ride up.

  37. #37
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    I think you're borrowing trouble you don't have. I question the concept of a trail having too much speed to be safe for up hill, or multi use. Reason being, none of us should be riding past our available line of sight. Not because of user conflicts, but because that's how you Mtn Bike. I like to ride fast on trails that land themselves to that. Unless we're riding off lifts where trails are always clear, one never knows what tree fell last night, and if you ride long enough you'll have those stories about being on a fast section of trail....or coming off the lip of a jump to see at the last second a limb, or tree down....or ATV full of national guardsmen....it's amazing how fast we can stop, and being able to is a basic concept of riding.

    I think it's OK to have a trail or two give DH traffic the ROW. This sounds like a good situation for that. Climbers and hikers can usually hear fast oncoming, and give a verbal "Riders up" and be out of line pretty quick.

    Maybe just a "Yeild to DH traffic" sign on that trail.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudguard View Post
    Does anyone have a realistic feel for a speed limit on a bike? For me that's 24kmh. On the flat I'm not going that speed but I'd say on a decent descent I would. But I'd have no idea unless I stared at my Garmin.
    It's 30mph, because any time someone tells a tale of riding they say, "I was just flying down this hill doing like THIRTY when all of the sudden..."

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    "I was just flying down this hill doing like THIRTY when all of the sudden..."
    i had to bunnyhop this kid...


  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
    I beg to differ. It sounds like the consensus is that it's a multidirectional trail and a few people are going against the grain and potentially ruining it for intended multidirectional use of the trail.

    The real problem is that bikes and riders today are too damn good.
    Yes, lets all go back to riding crappy ridged frames with 19mm rims and canti brakes. My as well forget all of the skills we've acquired too.

    A great downhill generally sucks for climbing. What sucks more is deconstructing a great downhill into a mediocre multi-direction trail just because a few people are creating a safety issue by trying to ride up the downhill trail.

    The OP already said it's always been a downhill trail until Strava came along and someone needed to find a climb no one liked so they can hold the KOM on it.

  41. #41
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    ^Nope. Not even close, OP said, and I quote, "Some old legacy trails have been reworked to maximize the DH". Not a downhill before Strava, something that they want to make one way in opposition to the land manager.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiThundrrr View Post
    ^Nope. Not even close, OP said, and I quote, "Some old legacy trails have been reworked to maximize the DH". Not a downhill before Strava, something that they want to make one way in opposition to the land manager.
    ...........
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratocaster View Post
    There is no directional change, it was always dh oriented, no one even thought to climb it until strava showed up with the desperation to kom a seldom used segment.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fajita Dave View Post
    Yes, lets all go back to riding crappy ridged frames with 19mm rims and canti brakes. My as well forget all of the skills we've acquired too.

    A great downhill generally sucks for climbing. What sucks more is deconstructing a great downhill into a mediocre multi-direction trail just because a few people are creating a safety issue by trying to ride up the downhill trail.

    The OP already said it's always been a downhill trail until Strava came along and someone needed to find a climb no one liked so they can hold the KOM on it.
    The OP said it's designated for up and downhill use by the land manager. And it sounds like the OP and his friends are trying to discourage legitimate uphill travel...which, in my opinion is bad for bike access. He even suggests DH riders may hit people...which is really bad for trail access.

    Remember, this is a "trail advocacy" forum. The OP and his friends are trying to discourage legitimate trail use. That is bad for mountain bike trai access no matter what time period.

    Finally, there are many riders who love to clean serious technical climbs.

    Edit: My statement about riders and bikes being too good these days was meant as a complement. We can haul some serious ass today, far faster than early biking. But I don't think that's a license to discourage legitimate trail use.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
    The OP said it's designated for up and downhill use by the land manager. And it sounds like the OP and his friends are trying to discourage legitimate uphill travel...which, in my opinion is bad for bike access. He even suggests DH riders may hit people...which is really bad for trail access.
    The land manager may well understand/want it to be DH bikes primary. But have other policies or regulations which make it difficult for them to make that official. Thus you get things like the yellow "you probably don't want to be here" sign.



    As a practical answer, can you put a filter feature at the bottom? Maybe slightly hidden even? I guess it'll be hard to stop the strava people aiming for a Personal Record on repeat, but if there's a lower junction where the uphill/downill intersect and you can hide and make challenging one, people will go to the other. But not always possible.

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