I came here for some cool trail building stuff and all I got was E-Bike BS.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    I came here for some cool trail building stuff and all I got was E-Bike BS.

    seriously. Knock it off and put threads in the proper forums. Some of you guys sound like a bunch of whiney c*nts

  2. #2
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    And don't disagree with the status quo and state your own opinion on anything or else others will give you a negative rating. I really don't care what others think of me but I do think the rating system is pretty much bullshit and a simple minded way of trying to keep people thinking inside the box.

  3. #3
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    This sub-forum used to be a good place for trail builders to come and share ideas, get help with trail projects, and for the most part had a positive helpful vibe. Not so much anymore. That vibe was killed off by a handful of individuals, and dumping all the e-bike threads in here was the final nail in the coffin.
    No dig no whine

  4. #4
    saddlemeat
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    ^If you have a question, ask it. Most semi or pro builders don't shoot the sh*t about the cool berm they built that day and post pics. Lots of expertise here to answer practical questions. Quit whinning, don't read the ebike posts, build trail, ask real questions.
    I ride with the best dogs.




  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    Most semi or pro builders don't shoot the sh*t about the cool berm they built that day and post pics.
    It would be a lot cooler than E-Bike rants if they did.

  6. #6
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    The higher ups/owners decided that e-bike access debates should be banned from the e-bike forum, so they get dumped here now. I assume because the e-bike forum is more likely to generate ad revenue if that sort of debate is cut off, but who knows.

    Anyway, I agree it's annoying, but you're not obligated to read the e-bike threads, and there's still good info to be had here.

    -Walt

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    ^If you have a question, ask it. Most semi or pro builders don't shoot the sh*t about the cool berm they built that day and post pics. Lots of expertise here to answer practical questions. Quit whinning, don't read the ebike posts, build trail, ask real questions.
    This.

    The real deal builders go build and ride. Usually willing to help others. Sucks that so few want to pick up a shovel and learn.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    The higher ups/owners decided that e-bike access debates should be banned from the e-bike forum, so they get dumped here now. I assume because the e-bike forum is more likely to generate ad revenue if that sort of debate is cut off, but who knows.

    Anyway, I agree it's annoying, but you're not obligated to read the e-bike threads, and there's still good info to be had here.

    -Walt
    That sucks. Makes no sense as this forum should be about building trail, period.

  9. #9
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    I do understand that part of the forum is for advocacy. Sadly, that becomes kind of political. As far as asking questions of the trailbuilders here, I'm so green that I don't even know which questions to ask. I follow this site so I can learn what others are doing. I have a small chunk of land in northern Minnesota that has a fair amount of elevation changes on it and am trying to build biking/hiking/grouse hunting trails on it. I hope to have four miles when I'm done. I have garnered a fair amount of info from those that have posted on here so far.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torgy View Post
    I do understand that part of the forum is for advocacy. Sadly, that becomes kind of political. As far as asking questions of the trailbuilders here, I'm so green that I don't even know which questions to ask. I follow this site so I can learn what others are doing. I have a small chunk of land in northern Minnesota that has a fair amount of elevation changes on it and am trying to build biking/hiking/grouse hunting trails on it. I hope to have four miles when I'm done. I have garnered a fair amount of info from those that have posted on here so far.
    Buy a clinometer, and get copies of the IMBA and USFS trailbuilding manuals, those will keep you from making the worst of mistakes. And if you do anyway, no biggie, it's just a trail, you can always fix whatever doesn't work well.

  11. #11
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    Thanks Harryman. I have the IMBA book and bought a clinometer. Good choice to buy one, I'm trying to avoid the mistakes . I'll have to check out the USFA manuals, next.

  12. #12
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    My advice before you start trying to build bench cut trails is identify the most choice pieces of land for primitive trail creation. Ridges. Old roads/logging infrastructure. The most gently sloped areas. Also scout out points of interest. Potential views. Geologically interesting spots. Historical locations such as old walls, foundations, ect. In your case the cover you plan to hunt obviously. Try and connect these points of interest with as much primitive trail as possible. Only bench trail where you have to.

    As you route trail think about momentum and speed. Keep the trails much straighter than you think you need to, and where you have to turn, keep the turns as open as you can. The biggest mistake newer designers make is to build too tight a radius turns.

    Hike, hike, hike. You should have the land basically memorized before you start making your first trail. When you do, under build everything. Where gradient, side hill, weird roots/rocks/undulations exist, you might get away with leaving them. The trail will change when they burn in and use will create a better tread than you think it might.
    Enjoy.

  13. #13
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    Thank you, DaveVT. I appreciate the suggestions.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torgy View Post
    I do understand that part of the forum is for advocacy. Sadly, that becomes kind of political. As far as asking questions of the trailbuilders here, I'm so green that I don't even know which questions to ask. I follow this site so I can learn what others are doing. I have a small chunk of land in northern Minnesota that has a fair amount of elevation changes on it and am trying to build biking/hiking/grouse hunting trails on it. I hope to have four miles when I'm done. I have garnered a fair amount of info from those that have posted on here so far.
    Got any local mt bike advocacy groups in the area? A day or two working with them might be good. MA rider and builder here. Any vernal pools or seasonal streams? I know its your land, something to just keep in mind. As Dave VT said, walk and walk. Get a feel for the seasonal trees/ leaf stuff as well the water flows, if any. One more thought. Most trail builders really like to build, and untracked stuff is great. Find a trail build group in your area, host a bbq/ beer lunch. Even if its for just two hours to do a group walk through. Might find some google map of aerial pics. Got some detailed topo maps for the area? Would should water and elevation profiles. Just a few thoughts, post back with some progress.

  15. #15
    Sheepherder/Cat Herder Moderator
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    I concur!!!
    ...building wherever they'll let me...

  16. #16
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    I do some work with the local singletrack trail in St. Croix Falls, Wisconsin. I've been learning quite a bit as we build more trails and maintain the ones we have. I do have some seasonal streams and a pond on my land. Flagging the trails seems to work pretty good in the spring before all of the frost goes out of the ground. No leaves on trees and brush yet so I can see a lot easier where I want to go and the wet areas are easier to identify. I had to do a reroute near my seasonal pond. Thanks for the advice and keep it coming.

  17. #17
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    I have gotten great advice here and continued following even when I didn't have an issue I needed help with. I think this is essential to keeping a forum healthy.

    I stopped checking in here regularly when the wilderness debate seemed to be the only thing being discussed. I came back when I had a new problem only to find that ebikes are now the raging mindless debate. As someone suggested to me last time I offered my grips, its an easy thing to simply not read the posts with ebike in the title. Thing is, it drove me away and I'm guessing others too, so I'm invested in having the moderators chase the whining whiners away so that the more practical minded keep coming here.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ki5ka View Post
    I have gotten great advice here and continued following even when I didn't have an issue I needed help with. I think this is essential to keeping a forum healthy.

    I stopped checking in here regularly when the wilderness debate seemed to be the only thing being discussed. I came back when I had a new problem only to find that ebikes are now the raging mindless debate. As someone suggested to me last time I offered my grips, its an easy thing to simply not read the posts with ebike in the title. Thing is, it drove me away and I'm guessing others too, so I'm invested in having the moderators chase the whining whiners away so that the more practical minded keep coming here.
    I also strongly prefer trail building topics to ebikes (and wilderness debate), but I don't see leaving as the solution. If you want to have dialog about trail building more on here, then make some new posts. The mindset to flee will just worsen the problem.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    As you route trail think about momentum and speed. Keep the trails much straighter than you think you need to, and where you have to turn, keep the turns as open as you can. The biggest mistake newer designers make is to build too tight a radius turns.
    I agree with this! In one of the trail systems that I ride, a trail was designed to fit in a small area. Since mountain bikers designed it, they tried to maximize the trail length but caused it to endlessly turn. In about 7 minutes of riding, there probably isn't even a 50 foot stretch of straight trail. Because of this, you constantly see other riders on other parts of the trail. Since I'm on a bike, it's only moderately annoying, but since it's a multi use trail, I think it's a pretty awful design. I can't imagine anyone wanting that type of trail to walk/hike on. And it's so curvy, that even running on it would be a challenge due to the constant change in direction.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctxcrossx View Post
    I agree with this! In one of the trail systems that I ride, a trail was designed to fit in a small area. Since mountain bikers designed it, they tried to maximize the trail length but caused it to endlessly turn. In about 7 minutes of riding, there probably isn't even a 50 foot stretch of straight trail. Because of this, you constantly see other riders on other parts of the trail. Since I'm on a bike, it's only moderately annoying, but since it's a multi use trail, I think it's a pretty awful design. I can't imagine anyone wanting that type of trail to walk/hike on. And it's so curvy, that even running on it would be a challenge due to the constant change in direction.
    Robinson?

    I had about 2.5 miles( on 110 acres) of private land trail built in CT. Hike, Hike, Hike! Then when you have a sense of what you might want to do, bring out the surveyors pin flags to mark it out. Then you'll need to run it to get the feel of it at speed. Plotting what you want in the fall when the leaves are down and visibility is good in the woods helps. It's also good to have it all layed out so you can walk it through the early spring. My land has a ton of rock ledge, and the way the melt off perks into and gets spit out the sides of the hill could never be predicted by just looking at it. I had a major re-route on the first loop I built because of it. I'd also do a small simple loop the first year to get a sense of how much up keep you'll need to do through the seasons. You'll add to your network in manageable chunks from there. Best K.

  21. #21
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    Mojo, I have a fair amount of ledgerock on my property, too. Also, many rocks at or slightly above the soil. Was your trail built using a machine, like a mini skid steer or mini excavator or was it hand built? The trail I volunteer at has a drastically different soil make up than where my land is. At the trail I volunteer at, we use an ancient type of brush hog, then a tiller and after we shape it with shovels by hand, we use a plate compactor. I can't imagine this working on my personal property.

  22. #22
    saddlemeat
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Robinson?

    I had about 2.5 miles( on 110 acres) of private land trail built in CT. Hike, Hike, Hike! Then when you have a sense of what you might want to do, bring out the surveyors pin flags to mark it out. Then you'll need to run it to get the feel of it at speed. Plotting what you want in the fall when the leaves are down and visibility is good in the woods helps. It's also good to have it all layed out so you can walk it through the early spring. My land has a ton of rock ledge, and the way the melt off perks into and gets spit out the sides of the hill could never be predicted by just looking at it. I had a major re-route on the first loop I built because of it. I'd also do a small simple loop the first year to get a sense of how much up keep you'll need to do through the seasons. You'll add to your network in manageable chunks from there. Best K.
    Yep, great advice!
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  23. #23
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    ^Haters aside, they also know that it would change the mtb trails they built. I have no problem with dedicated ebike trails, and I'm sure they don't want heavier motorcycles on their ebike system. Singletracks conform to the fastest heaviest users/vehicles. We don't want our narrow mtb singletracks blown out by the heavier faster ecycles.
    I ride with the best dogs.




  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torgy View Post
    Mojo, I have a fair amount of ledgerock on my property, too. Also, many rocks at or slightly above the soil. Was your trail built using a machine, like a mini skid steer or mini excavator or was it hand built? The trail I volunteer at has a drastically different soil make up than where my land is. At the trail I volunteer at, we use an ancient type of brush hog, then a tiller and after we shape it with shovels by hand, we use a plate compactor. I can't imagine this working on my personal property.
    My stuff is entirely hand built. For me the process started with the understanding that if I was deliberate about how I set my foot-paths walking every day I could get away with a ton of rake-and -ride trail at the end of the summer. I'm sure I walked the hill better than 50 times before I ever brought any tools with me. I also knew ahead that digging trail in wouldn't really work...my task was to figure out where the trail was sitting on the surface, either between the rocks or up and over them. The term "X-Stuntry" was used to describe the riding style at that time...a sort of heavy all mountain feel with some light freeride moments sprinkled in when the terrain required it. There isn't any real flow, but once you got good, you could find a rhythm.

    A good builder finds the best part of the land they're building on.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    ^Haters aside, they also know that it would change the mtb trails they built. I have no problem with dedicated ebike trails, and I'm sure they don't want heavier motorcycles on their ebike system. Singletracks conform to the fastest heaviest users/vehicles. We don't want our narrow mtb singletracks blown out by the heavier faster ecycles.
    I don't care to fuel the fire, but will point out that the ribbon narrow singletrack built in the early 90's all got blown out when suspension bike took off....and again when all-mountain trail riding killed the xc race sensibility. The bikes progressed, then the riding, then the trails change. This isn't a new thing.

  26. #26
    saddlemeat
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    ^No it didn't. We have lots of narrow singletrack, are still building it in fact. Obviously not so much for you but it's a big mtb world.
    I ride with the best dogs.




  27. #27
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    ^ I hear you, I've been working on USFS land for over 20 years. We recently have gotten approval for inspection of volunteer work by a USFS approved private supervisor, paid for by highway dept and Rac money, through the County. And yes, you have a different set of terrain and political conditions, but are in the same USFS region as us in NW New Mexico I believe.
    I ride with the best dogs.




  28. #28
    saddlemeat
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    ^Of course, but they do change periodically. We had to sit one out for 10 years. Is your Forest Supervisor approachable? There is a general rule in existence to use volunteer resources wherever possible.
    I ride with the best dogs.




  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    bsieb you make some good points, but they don’t apply to the trails I am talking about. The trailbuilders who built the majority of the cool user built trails in Sedona don’t worry about whether Ebikes or motorcycle riders ride those trails. What they do care about is the maintenance of their work product and the inability of being able to do the maintenance of those trails due to USFS policy.

    The USFS has said “we can’t have everybody do maintenance on USFS system trails”. What they are saying is that they are unwilling to let the people who created the world class user built system trails, maintain them, when the character of the trail has changed negatively or has become less sustainable. They pretend that there are lots of unqualified people who would like to do trail maintenance on system trails. I think you and I know that is not going to happen very often.

    Maybe you understand the USFS reasoning for not giving qualified volunteers the opportunity to do trail maintenance without USFS supervision at times that fit the qualified volunteer’s time schedule.
    Odd, we have a volunteer trail crew now that works without FS supervision. Different district but same National Forest as you. What happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    I have made the point previously that a large out of control forest fire causes millions of more negative environmental impact than a properly routed mountain bike trail. In the mind of the USFS any impact is considered bad. There is no public discussion about the significance of the impact.
    Uh, it's called NEPA. Check it out.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    Robinson?
    Worse than Robinson, although they abuse this rule too! It's a trail called Microburst at Cowles in East Granby. It's crazy how twisty it is!

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torgy View Post
    I do understand that part of the forum is for advocacy. Sadly, that becomes kind of political. As far as asking questions of the trailbuilders here, I'm so green that I don't even know which questions to ask. I follow this site so I can learn what others are doing. I have a small chunk of land in northern Minnesota that has a fair amount of elevation changes on it and am trying to build biking/hiking/grouse hunting trails on it. I hope to have four miles when I'm done. I have garnered a fair amount of info from those that have posted on here so far.
    You should get some literature such as the IMBA trail building book, and some of the US Forest Service publications and familiarize yourself with the basic concepts needed for building sustainable trails. Then maybe find a local group of volunteers who would love another pair of hands and legs. You will be a pro in no time at all.

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