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  1. #1
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    E bikes on your trails?

    What do you folks think about sharing your favorite trails with E bikes?

    I Say "E-bike", You Say... - Sea Otter 2016 - Pinkbike

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    No thanks

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    To be perfectly honest, I think they look like a blast. I've only seen two on our local trails and I tried not to let it bother me. If I saw a bunch I don't think I'd like it. If I were to get one for myself I'd use it on OHV trails and on forest service roads, since I know people would object to me riding it on the bike trails.

    What worries me more is the concurrent push to allow bikes in Wilderness and, if permitted, how someone might try taking their e-bike out there.

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    Hell no!

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    Bicycles donít have motors or batteries.:nono:

    Ebikes are not bicycles :nono:

  6. #6
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    As of now...no motorized vehicles on any of my local trails.
    NTFTC

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    I don't own any trails, so anyone who is allowed is welcome to share them with me.
    Last edited by Capt.Ogg; 04-19-2016 at 07:38 AM.

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    I mountain bike for fitness and muscle cross training, on top of obviously being fun. So I know I would never use an e-bike as it would defeat the primary purpose of my riding.

    However, there is an equally large, if not larger, group of people that ride for the pure pleasure of it. So if an e-bike will allow them to get out and ride longer (which will still burn 'some' calories), and it doesn't compromise the integrity of the trails or endanger anyone on the trail? I am all for it.

    My concern is that these bikes are generally a lot heavier, and have a power source. So if a novice gets behind the bars of one of these and loses control of it, it has the potential to deal a lot more damage than even the heaviest of full suspension bikes. Since you likely won't see as many experienced mountain bikers changing over to e-bikes, the clientele is likely to primarily be amateurs and novice riders.

    A happy medium would be to put a speed limiter on the power assist to stop pedaling at about 5mph. (Whereas many of them are at 15mph) This allows them to primarily only assist the rider in climbing, where I would guess those using e-bikes want them. If a person wants to climb faster than 5mph? Well then you get to join the rest of the community and use your legs.

    Still, can't get away from gravity pulling that hoss down a trail at a much greater speed than a normal bike.

  9. #9
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    Nope, on the trails I ride, non-motorized = non-motorized. Doesn't matter how ya spin it (philosophically, pedals or thumb lever), a motor is a motor.
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    Non-motorized means no motor. Trails that aren't marked as such, have at it.... it's their choice to ride a weak motorcycle.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLx6 View Post
    What do you folks think about sharing your favorite trails with E bikes?

    I Say "E-bike", You Say... - Sea Otter 2016 - Pinkbike
    Wrong forum; check out the E-Bike forum for endless threads of the same sentiment.
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  12. #12
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    I'd rather see ebikes on the trails instead of all of the suspension bikes. What's the difference? Guys who don't really ride are already going down trails at stupid speeds with their full suspension downhill bikes with no regard to other users.

    The only ebike I've seen on local trails was with a man who was 91 years old. The electric assist allowed him to be able to ride in the mountains where he hunted when he was younger.

    Shocks allow riders to go faster. Ebikes often allow people to be able to ride.

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    I could care less. I have never seen one (to date).
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    I don't care for them, but my opinion doesn't matter in the least. It's a growing market and they'll be all over the place eventually whether I like it or not.

    It's sort of like the candidate that you don't like winning the Presidency. You don't like it, but you still have to live with it.
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    They are rightly considered motorized vehicles here and are only allowed on moto friendly trails, I would prefer it to stay that way. I haven't seen any yet.

    I think they are great for transportation and communting, I'd seriously consider one for that if my commute was longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    I'd rather see ebikes on the trails instead of all of the suspension bikes. What's the difference? Guys who don't really ride are already going down trails at stupid speeds with their full suspension downhill bikes with no regard to other users.

    The only ebike I've seen on local trails was with a man who was 91 years old. The electric assist allowed him to be able to ride in the mountains where he hunted when he was younger.

    Shocks allow riders to go faster. Ebikes often allow people to be able to ride.
    Ugg. Motorized or not. That is the difference.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Ugg. Motorized or not. That is the difference.
    That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.
    Wyoming? Like where there are no people? Nice. Full sus? Give me a break. Out of control riders, separate issues. Closed minded, not at all. Here in MA, no motorized vehicles allowed on trails. That is public parks and forests, state owned. They can ride where ORV's can go, very simple. Here we can not just ride anywhere, access is not a given at all, and still is a hard fought battle. I see e motorcycles getting ALL bikes banned on the trails I have done work on for the last 15 years. We will send all the e motorcycles out to your state. How's that wilderness stuff working out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    That's the differentiation that many are making but there could be other differentiations. I've not had any issues with ebikes. I HAVE had riders that were going to fast run into me or nearly run into me on the trails. All of these riders have been riding full suspension bikes. Therefore, I feel full suspension bikes are the problem and we ought to be talking about problems. You are frustrated with my response, and I'm frustrated with the close minded thinking in regarding ebikes.
    All the fastest out of control riders here are on hardtails, most of the FS bikes are old guys with bad backs riding slow. We need to ban hardtails.

  21. #21
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    I was riding a 5 mile paved bicycle/walking path yesterday and noticed a No Motorized Vehicles sign at the entrance and wondered if that includes someone that is handicapped in a motorized wheel chair?

    I know people have been calling engines motors for years - "what motor do you have in that thing" when they're actually asking someone what engine is in their car, so the no motorized bicycles signs that have been around for thirty years and predates electric bicycles may really have meant No Engineized Bicycles - as there were bicycles with gas engines on them back then.

    If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.

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    CA has a Class 1 rating for e-bikes that supposedly allows them in the same areas as
    p-bikes, but seems like the courts may need to decide the issue. It's a joke to say
    e-bikes go downhill faster than p-bikes since most individuals descend at a rate they feel comfortable. E-bikes don't allow them to descend more rapidly, probably slower since they're more ponderous and difficult to handle.
    Interesting thing to me is that manufacturers are having difficulty pushing p-bikes and are trying to boost sales with e-bikes. Wonder how that's going to play out, but the haters could just start buying a slew of p-bikes and probably put e-bikes on the back burner for awhile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.
    ADA motorized mobility devices are generally exempt anywhere in public spaces. I'm not sure you have to prove you are disabled, I doubt there's a rash of people using them inappropriately, so what's the point?

    E-bikes are not considered as part of that class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    If they truly mean no motorized vehicles allowed, then electric wheelchairs are prohibited too - unless they have to display a handicap placard or something.

    I suppose one could argue semantics but for all practical purposes I think the words "engine" and "motor" are pretty much interchangeable.

    And as for motorized vehicles on trails, whether the motor is fed by electricity, petrol, coal, steam, or whatever else should be irrelevant IMHO.

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    I wonder if there is a market for an electric all-wheel drive three wheel mobility scooter with 20" fat tires for trail use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I suppose one could argue semantics but for all practical purposes I think the words "engine" and "motor" are pretty much interchangeable.

    And as for motorized vehicles on trails, whether the motor is fed by electricity, petrol, coal, steam, or whatever else should be irrelevant IMHO.
    It is all semantics, but I think it's shaking out that a "motor" is electric and an "engine" uses some sort of fuel such as diesels, ICEs, and rockets. I would not be surprised if the signs were all changed to "engineless vehicles" in another decade to reflect current usage and acceptance.

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    I realize that technically there is a difference but Webster says they're the same and that's good enough for me, and I suspect the law. For now anyway.

    And again, motorized or enginized should make zero difference as far as this topic goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I wonder if there is a market for an electric all-wheel drive three wheel mobility scooter with 20" fat tires for trail use?
    It'd be legal on pedestrian trails designed to be ADA accessible, otherwise no. Just like you can't ride a Segway or quad anywhere you like by claiming an ADA disability. Kind of limits the market.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    ADA motorized mobility devices are generally exempt anywhere in public spaces. I'm not sure you have to prove you are disabled, I doubt there's a rash of people using them inappropriately, so what's the point?

    E-bikes are not considered as part of that class.
    The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....
    again with the semantics - but I'll go with no motors, except wheelchairs.... if the path is meant to be handicap accessible. now if you want to argue that an e-bike can be seen as viable handicap transport, then you have an argument. you planning on getting a sticker to get legal?

  31. #31
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    I am just afraid that it is going to open the door for other, and more powerful motorbikes. Then there will be congestion and incidents that are normally avoided right now by that mixture of human power versus aided power I just think that the sanctity of some trails should remain.

    I already deal with some idiots on eBikes on our paved/multi-use trails around here. We already have enough ignorance and selfishness with non-motoriazed users of the multi-use trail....this just adds to the gauntlet

    I don't have a problem with the ebikes themselves. I would use one to commute if I thought it help my normal commute ride. I would NEVER use one on dirt trails b/c in my heart it is cheating...it goes against why i decide to ride bikes...but that is just me

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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....
    The ADA grants some far and wide rules for access for disabled folks needing access. My friend in a wheel chair goes everywhere. He has a Boma, 750(?) watts, 20" wheel front and 26" rear wheel quad mobility device. It rocks, needs some wider paths but can handle some steep grades too. He can ride that anywhere he wants. Not just on HP accessible areas. And does. I sometimes mt bike with him at the same time. Folks should do some reading up on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matuchi View Post
    The point is - if no motorized vehicles are allowed on that bike path/pedestrian path, then everything motorized is not allowed - e-bikes, e-wheel-chairs, segways, little kids with an electric car, everything with a motor - or do they actually mean engine - as in cars, trucks, motorcycles etc.....
    It's pretty easy to understand, no motors unless they are specifically exempt.

    Again, specific ADA mobility devices (moto/non moto wheelchairs/scooters/walkers/canes) are allowed anywhere pedestrians are. Other motorized devices, like Segways, or ebikes that could also be used by a disabled person are not unless specified . This second, non traditional class of vehicles is regulated by the land manager and they decide what and how they can be used on their land.

    For example, JeffCo's policy is this: Jefferson County (CO) trail use Other Power Driven Mobility Devices

    In a nutshell, no trails over 12%, 5mph average speed, 10mph top speed. If this fits your riding style, and you're disabled, have at it.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    I am just afraid that it is going to open the door for other, and more powerful motorbikes. Then there will be congestion and incidents that are normally avoided right now by that mixture of human power versus aided power I just think that the sanctity of some trails should remain.

    I already deal with some idiots on eBikes on our paved/multi-use trails around here. We already have enough ignorance and selfishness with non-motoriazed users of the multi-use trail....this just adds to the gauntlet

    I don't have a problem with the ebikes themselves. I would use one to commute if I thought it help my normal commute ride. I would NEVER use one on dirt trails b/c in my heart it is cheating...it goes against why i decide to ride bikes...but that is just me

    Change is not always a good thing....
    On a serious note, I have no problems with e-bikes as they seem to be now, but do see the problems that could arise. It seems to me, limiting their weight, (to say 45 or so pounds) making sure they are peddle assist, (no throttle) and they are limited to 15 mph on the assist they should be fine. I realize there are also going to be enforcement issues, but I don't really think that should be the burden of the people that want to ride e-bikes..

    What may be an answer is limiting the speed to 15 or so mph period, even when peddling or going down hill. This would stop mountain e-bikes from becoming high performance and would allow enforcement officers to try the bike and if they can get it over the limit it is not allowed in.

    I do have sympathy for those that want e-bike as I have switched to mountain biking from dirt motorcycles mostly because 90% of all trails I use to dirt bike on have been closed. But I don't want unrestricted use of e-bikes to ruin mountain biking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    again with the semantics - but I'll go with no motors, except wheelchairs.... if the path is meant to be handicap accessible. now if you want to argue that an e-bike can be seen as viable handicap transport, then you have an argument. you planning on getting a sticker to get legal?
    The last time I checked, my bike doesn't need a sticker.

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    I like the no throttle idea...I think that would solve many issues. It would truly be pedal enhancing rather than pedal replacing.

    I also could not identify witht he weight of these things on dirt trails
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    Very easy to disable assist and go throttle...
    ...I wonder how many guys here have actually ridden an e- assist bike?

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    As well as disable or modify limiters.

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    Its a non issue pedal assist or thumb or twist its still limited low power and and one type over the other wont make anyone of them more powerful than the others. I hope I typed that slow enough

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Very easy to disable assist and go throttle...
    ...I wonder how many guys here have actually ridden an e- assist bike?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    As well as disable or modify limiters.
    So we should ban all e-bike because some people with e-bikes will break the law. We don't ban all cars or motorcycles because some people illegally modify them.

    I see on this forum people who argue vigorously against banning regular mountain bikes from areas where a few bikers illegally break new trails or illegally modify trails in parks. I don't see how this is any different.

    Rules should be made as reasonable as possible, and then they should be enforced as best as possible. To make rules or laws just to avoid having to enforce what is reasonable is not right. And just indicates the level of self-centered laziness this country had sunk to.

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    Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
    ...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!

    Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Again, specific ADA mobility devices (moto/non moto wheelchairs/scooters/walkers/canes) are allowed anywhere pedestrians are. Other motorized devices, like Segways, or ebikes that could also be used by a disabled person are not unless specified . This second, non traditional class of vehicles is regulated by the land manager and they decide what and how they can be used on their land.

    Kind of...the LM must go through certain steps and document the reasons that a certain type of OPMD isn't allowed on certain trails. If this assessment has been done according to quite specific guidelines, a trail is by default open to any OPMD device a person chooses to use, right on up to an ATV. This applies to all public hiking trails, not just "handicapped accessible" one.

    Designated mountain bike trails do not fall under these guidelines though, so a LM can tell someone they are not allowed to take an OPMD on those, but they can't limit their access to hiking trails. So a disable person with an e-bike gets a blanket pass to hiking trails, but can be denied access to MTB trails, ironically enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
    ...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!

    Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!
    Clearly all bikes are bad and we should just ban them outright. Nevermind that e-bikes are categorically different from pedal-powered bikes, that's irrelevant... The conversation is really about *****ing about whatever bike has pissed you off recently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Kind of...the LM must go through certain steps and document the reasons that a certain type of OPMD isn't allowed on certain trails. If this assessment has been done according to quite specific guidelines, a trail is by default open to any OPMD device a person chooses to use, right on up to an ATV. This applies to all public hiking trails, not just "handicapped accessible" one.

    Designated mountain bike trails do not fall under these guidelines though, so a LM can tell someone they are not allowed to take an OPMD on those, but they can't limit their access to hiking trails. So a disable person with an e-bike gets a blanket pass to hiking trails, but can be denied access to MTB trails, ironically enough.
    Some of the best descents (I suspect anyway) in my area are on hiking only trails... Maybe when I'm old and qualify as handicapped I'll get to vroom up to the top and bomb them finally!

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    Rules should be made as reasonable as possible, and then they should be enforced as best as possible. To make rules or laws just to avoid having to enforce what is reasonable is not right. And just indicates the level of self-centered laziness this country had sunk to.
    Either intentionally, or unintentionally, the CA regs as an example are effectively unenforcable. Manufacturers are free to be flexible with stated top speeds and wattage, which is how the classes are distiguished. There's no penalty if their 750W motor is actually 2000W. It is brain dead easy to change the upper speed limit, just change the settings in your controller from 29" wheel to 26" for example, let alone the simple mods you can do.

    Example, 35 mph without pedaling:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/f...lectric-bike#/

    "The Fusion electric bike was originally designed to meet the California criteria for electric bikes (1000 watt). As long as you wear a helmet there is no license or insurance required

    The Fusion electric bike is designed more like a very light motorcycle than your average short range slow speed E-bike.

    The 48V MOSFET controller that delivers up to a peak of 2000 watts of power*.

    The Fusions controller can also be tailored to adhere to any local laws international or domestic(250watt, 350watt laws ) The power level can be set on the LCD dashboard and adjusted for off-road use back to maximum power."

    Or this, a class 3 bike that looks exactly like a class 1 or 2. Class 3 bikes are prohibited unless expressly allowed, Class 1 and 2 are allowed except where expressly prohibited.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/f...ith-attitude#/

    Who will enforce it? I would venture that the vast majority of public lands have no gates where your equipment is inspected as you pass through, and no money to hire additional personel to carry out such inspections either at the trail head or on the trail.

    The regs essentially allow you to ride any motorized electric bike you'd like, if anyone ever asks, just tell them what they need to hear.

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    Looks cool very clean good choice when you picking yours up????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    Who will enforce it? I would venture that the vast majority of public lands have no gates where your equipment is inspected as you pass through, and no money to hire additional personel to carry out such inspections either at the trail head or on the trail.

    .
    Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.

    I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Looks cool very clean good choice when you picking yours up????
    Since the only place ebikes are legal here is on the road, no bike paths, no single track, I don't see the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.

    I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.
    So, everyone using the park should finance the bike inspection program? For every park we'd add more staff? I can think of 6 city parks that are all mtb destinations within riding distance of me, all with multiple entry points, how would we handle that?

    We require OHV registration here at $25 a vehicle, I could support adding ebikes to that although in 30 years of riding trails I've never seen a ranger inspect anything, so essentially, you are just collecting money for trail maintenence. All ebikes or just those that go offroad?

    Should we raise taxes to pay for more rangers to carryout random inspections? Sticker fees wouldn't cover the cost.

    I'm not busting your ass, just being realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    I'm not busting your ass, just being realistic.
    You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.

    You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.

    And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.

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    woa!! there armii STOP making sense you will hurt the e haters feelings with your common sense approach .

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.

    You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.

    And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.
    And how will they do this in a National Forest, with dozens or hundreds of entry points? Whose use is free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    Ban all regular human powered mt bikes with gears...
    ...cause human powered mt bikes with single speed are for real hero's!

    Gearing allows the rider to go faster, and damage trails, but single speed is more controlled!
    Fixies only! Coasting downhill is not human powered ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    You are not being realistic and you are spinning what I said to fit your own agenda.

    Seems the other way around to me, in many areas your suggestion is unrealistic. There are many thousands of acres and dozens of entry areas to most trail systems around here.

    I can't imagine wanting police, fees, inspections, etc. on the trails, must be a motorhead thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Fixies only! Coasting downhill is not human powered ;-)
    How about with a beer in your hand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    Just off the top of my head. Charge an entrance fee so you can afford to have personnel, or have a centralized inspection facility that issues an annual inspection sticker and have occasional random trail checks with loss of vehicle the penalty for not having a sticker or having a sticker on a modified bike.

    I'm sure if people started trying to actually analyze the issue for solutions they might find some.
    This would probably work on private land but public land would be impossible. Case in point in Arizona they have what is called State Trust Land, land that is held in trust for the educational needs of residents. The state leases the land to ranchers for grazing and you can get a permit to use it for up to 10 days of occupancy. The permit cost $20 a year or something trivial and is the only thing that will keep you from getting a ticket on the land. Unfortunately AZ is about 1/4 state trust land. That means just to police it you need to have more than the 3 or 4 wardens that are in AZ and paid for by the money raised by selling passes and ranching leases. This means that the large majority of people that use it use it illegally because there is no repercussion for using it illegally due to lack of enforcement.

    We actually built a very large mountain bike loop in a patch of state trust land in Tucson that is quite the popular location. People come to Tucson and ride it and love it, all without the permit, because there is no one to enforce it. I would bet that 40-50000 people use it a year and maybe 0.5% of them have the pass. On a very few occasions in my decades long involvement with that trail did the BLM show up and actually ticket users without passes. I can only remember one or two times actually.

    So while enforcement and money changing hands seems like a good idea, I would bet it would not pay for itself nor would there be the infrastructure or the oversight to do so efficiently and profitably.

    As a side note, and completely related to riding on public lands: state trust land in AZ requires that you will only use the land with a permit. We had a younger rider crash on these trails, riding illegally without a pass, and injured himself. Broken neck as I recall, paralysis, etc. His family decided that they would sue the state because of it. Once the state determined he was riding the trails without a permit, they countersued to the full extent of the law for trespassing and using the land illegally. It completely changed the liability of using that area for this user and they ultimately were forced to drop their lawsuit due to their illegal actions on this property. I would assume that if a trail has mandated that your use of it is illegal it would change your liability if you are using it illegally. Something to consider if there hasn't been a determination from the public land managers as to the legality of your use on the trail. A simple accident could put you in a much higher liability for damages than if you had the same action on a pedal bike.
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    Once again lets not consider the simple just buy a pass , no no lets read the above and play what if with long winding unrealistic worst case a buch of bs that is totally with out merit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    woa!! there armii STOP making sense you will hurt the e haters feelings with your common sense approach .
    You are such a whiny little fella.

    Mountain bikers should start paying for access because some people want to start bringing motors onto traditionally non-motorized trails? Why the hell should I be charged for issues that are specific to a user group I have nothing at all to do with? What is it with e-bikers - you not only want real riders take care of your maintenance, volunteer even more trailwork than we already do in order to accommodate you, and now we should be charged fees to cover your asses too? How much time and money per year are YOU willing to spend to support a sport you have no interest in whatsoever? Why don't you send me some cash to cover my snowmobile registration and club costs, if that's how you think things should work. Or does it only work that way when you're the one on the receiving end?

    It's getting pretty easy to see what sort of people e-bikes attract.
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    Yeah that's right I want you to pay for my access to every park every place and when you gonna get my them new forks ?? and hey why didn't you pay for my MT Pass I bought last week! yap yap yap

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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    . You don't have to charge an entrance fee for everyone, just to those using the mountain bike trails or a separate fee for the trails. That is how they do it at Markham Park Trails. It is a huge park with several different areas, gun range, mountain bike trails, horse trails, jet ski lake, RC airport and they all have different fees to cover different usage.. and the allow e-bikes.

    And the inspections fees need to be enough to cover inspection and random checks. anyone that can afford a $4000+ bike can afford inspection and use fees.
    Markham has "nearly 11 miles of trails"

    Markham Park Mountain Bike Trails

    We have over 200 miles of non moto trails just within our city park system, over 14,000 acres with only 7 full time rangers to oversee it and a few more seasonal. Living in town, most riding takes place in city parks, county and USFS land, all are porus without a central entrance that you could gate. Access is generally through a small parking lot with a trail head or just a trailhead.

    I've been riding here for 30 years and have only seen USFS rangers on workdays. City rangers essentially the same or picking up trash and I've never seen a county ranger. Lots of land + little personel = little oversight.

    This is typical of riding in the west, putting a system in place to police e mountain bikes would be expensive and impractical since we don't ride in any sort of enclosed mountain bike park, it's simply land open to the public.

    That is the reality for many of us.

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    Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .
    I don't pay anything to ride my bike, ever.

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    Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Ah if I may point out the obvious if a reg MT biker doesn't want to pay can he not just ride in anywere just like you are saying a e bike could ?? Ah uh umm So just buy the same pass as a reg mt biker !! hey even charge e bikers a little more . Gee see how simple and easy that was .
    We don't have passes, people use the parks for free, mtbs can enter anywhere there's a trail. Ebikes don't pay either, but they're not legal anywhere so since you cant ride them, that seems fair.

    Our local club builds trails for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club
    It's a National Forest, and I'm one of the people doing the maintenance.

    Why would I pay to use it?
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    you do understand I am in the east there is only ST park or city park with some Natl forest and yes I think we all should pay , Its better than the 80s were we was illegal ever st park and city park

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    I could care less if e-bikes are on my local trails. If some one is out there enjoy biking and nature as they couldn't otherwise, that's cool with me. I see people riding like crap all the time that are gonna do far more damage to trail over their riding life than a few e-bikes could ever hope to. Just my opinion, I like to see people out biking.
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    I'm "in the east" as well.

    And I already pay, in the form of federal income tax.

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    thanks cornbread hope to see you on the trail , ok Le Duke why not

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Well you should if your riding a park trail that is being upkepth by a local MT bike club
    So I guess that's another you should be paying me then.
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    another what?? you have some problem with buying a pass or trail permit?? OK what now? dam now you haters what to hate on that??

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    trails that are free to mountain bike only charge and licence e-bikes to afford to police e-bikes. places that charge regular bikes charge more for e-bikes. You're just dead set against e-bikes and know reasons why it would be bad, can quote the facts on your side and totally dismiss anything that might intrude upon your point of view. Come on, this is not a religious debate, logic and reason are acceptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    another what?? you have some problem with buying a pass or trail permit?? OK what now? dam now you haters what to hate on that??
    Another reason.

    Yes, I have a problem with that. In 25+ years of riding trails, I've never had to pay to ride anywhere that doesn't have a chairlift. Not gonna start now, specially when the only reason would be to fund a completely different user group's requirements. Pay your own way, leave us out of it.
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    [QUOTE=slapheadmofo;12595339] Why the hell should I be charged for issues that are specific to a user group I have nothing at all to do with? QUOTE]

    I don't have any children why should my tax money go to education?

    I pay to ride Tamarcho in Marin County, it is Boy Scoot property, they have built a killer trail system. I would pay to ride sections of the Pacific Crest trail here in CA if they would allow it. I would pay for a wilderness bike access permit if they allowed it. E-Bikes should be regulated and not a ride anywhere affair. There are sections of trail out west that see no to little traffic of any sort.


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    lol what a piece of work slaphead is has never paid so why start now

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    Yes. Exactly. Why would he start paying for areas he is legally allowed to access for free?

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    You have to pay for a mountain access pass to park at the trailheads to hike the San Gabriel Mtns. Actually you need the pass to park anywhere, even at a roadside pullout. Our friends in the Republican party call this a "user fee", expect to see a lot more of them in a lot more places as state legislatures try to cut taxes and balance budgets simultaneously.

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    And if you came to a place that requires you to buy a trail permit?? like everywhere around here would you buy one?? I would hope I wouldn't even have to ask that

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    Yeah Moab charges to ride slick rock but slaphead and his buddies are exempt because of the Darwin theory .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Yeah Moab charges to ride slick rock but slaphead and his buddies are exempt because of the Darwin theory .
    What, pray tell, is the "Darwin theory"?

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    When we travel I always end up paying to ride. You pay to ride slickrock. You pay in Sedona for a parking pass. In my area the snowmobilers have a guy collecting money at their trailheads during the winter. I work hard and pay a lot of tax and it would piss me off if I had to pay to ride government land, but I would. In reality we should all join a club to help with trails maintenance.
    I hate e-bikes. I think they are the devil. I am okay if they are regulated to motorized trails only.
    But before I get my panties in a knot, lets think about this. If I am sharing the trail with some old guy or lady who is respectfully using the trail then it isn't going to bother me. If someone is commuting on one then that's alright too.
    The fear is that we will be bombarded be throttle twisting yahoo's and it will result in trail closures. I can only hope that this type of user won't last very long and will be onto the next new thing before it becomes a issue.
    I don't know why bike co's are pushing this market so hard, there must be some real money in it for them. I have made a decision not to support any manufacture that has a e-bike in there line up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    And if you came to a place that requires you to buy a trail permit?? like everywhere around here would you buy one?? I would hope I wouldn't even have to ask that
    Not sure. It's such an alien concept that I've never really given it thought. In New England, we build 'em and we ride 'em. There's nobody collecting money. If there were, I'd most likely poach. I put in well over 100 hours a year of trailwork and have for ages. I'm not paying shit to ride unless you're giving me a lift up a mountain.
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    well I have never been up your way so what ever works some times its just buying a map from a local shop , I always stop in and chat and buy something .

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Not sure. It's such an alien concept that I've never really given it thought. In New England, we build 'em and we ride 'em. There's nobody collecting money. If there were, I'd most likely poach. I put in well over 100 hours a year of trailwork and have for ages. I'm not paying shit to ride unless you're giving me a lift up a mountain.
    I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails to come onto their land and create MTB sized trails from the natural game trails. Because if it's private property and we are all trespassing together who cares what you ride? If it's state or federal land I'm not so sure you can build trails wherever you want, at least they don't like it much out here.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails to come onto their land and create MTB sized trails from the natural game trails. Because if it's private property and we are all trespassing together who cares what you ride? If it's state or federal land I'm not so sure you can build trails wherever you want, at least they don't like it much out here.....
    In our FS district, the local trail club asks for permission to do trail work (maintenance), receives a "yes", then requires all participants to sign a line on a form. Name, age, check a block or two, signature. We had 35 people last Tuesday. Ran out of tools.

    That's it. I don't pay anyone a dime, the FS doesn't come monitor us. Why? Because they've observed the work locals have done, and been satisfied.

    People and groups submit plans for new trails. They get built a year or two after submission, public comment period, funding, etc. With a mix of volunteer and paid, professional labor. There are two trails approved for construction here now, that were planned by locals and submitted to the FS. Just waiting on them to solicit bids, select a winner and then local volunteers will be alerted.

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    Ok that's cool looks like its working just fine one thing I have seen that I think is a great ideal is what Santos in FL does , the bike shop green way bikes across the street from the trail sells a map that's printed on a small towel . That money is plowed back in to the trail fund and since its printed on a towel you don't have ppl throwing them on the ground .

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I'm just wondering if you have permission from the landowners where you are building these trails
    Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.
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    I figured that was the case, despite our disagreement over ebikes you seem a responsible person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.
    Same situation here. Our local park system is broke, we've been at it since 1995 and have a great relationship with our local LM's. We design, build and pay for our own builds and also work with them to design for others to build. It's taken a loooong time to get to where we are now. Our trails are all open to the public, feel free to donate to our organization, but everyone uses them for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Same situation here. Our local park system is broke, we've been at it since 1995 and have a great relationship with our local LM's. We design, build and pay for our own builds and also work with them to design for others to build. It's taken a loooong time to get to where we are now. Our trails are all open to the public, feel free to donate to our organization, but everyone uses them for free.
    If I join and donate, can I ride my ebike on your public trails?

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    Is there not a lot of cross over between the e-bike crowd and the MTBing. If one buys a e-bike are they only going to e-bike. I don't ride my fully rigid single speed on gravity days or take it lift assisted riding. I have a big bike for that. Broad statements and blanket policies do not do the argument justice. I am now 65 so my days getting into the back county pedal only powered is much more difficult than it used to be. I am conflicted about even thinking about buying a e-bike but I so want to continue some of the rides that have become to difficult for me due to medical issues. I am embarrassed about wanting a e-bike. For years I was the one gear only guy that disparaged geared riders. Times change people change, I have always been very polite on the trails, I don't see that changing what ever bike I am on. I have always looked at the futility of trail users turning on each other it never works out and the end result is everyone looses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If I join and donate, can I ride my ebike on your public trails?
    Anyone can ride their bike on the trails we build, or hike, or trail run, no need to join or donate. However, ebikes are motorized and motorized vehicles are not allowed on non motorized trails here. Plenty of other places you could ride it on the moto trails though,.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dstepper View Post
    Is there not a lot of cross over between the e-bike crowd and the MTBing. If one buys a e-bike are they only going to e-bike. I don't ride my fully rigid single speed on gravity days or take it lift assisted riding. I have a big bike for that. Broad statements and blanket policies do not do the argument justice. I am now 65 so my days getting into the back county pedal only powered is much more difficult than it used to be. I am conflicted about even thinking about buying a e-bike but I so want to continue some of the rides that have become to difficult for me due to medical issues. I am embarrassed about wanting a e-bike. For years I was the one gear only guy that disparaged geared riders. Times change people change, I have always been very polite on the trails, I don't see that changing what ever bike I am on. I have always looked at the futility of trail users turning on each other it never works out and the end result is everyone looses.
    I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.

    Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.

    Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.
    Mirrors my sentiments exactly.

    I have a great time riding dirt or snow on motorized vehicles. Took my son ATVing just this afternoon actually. Ride dirt bikes and snowmos too. I have zero problem with motorized toys in general. I really don't see that the current e-bikes used responsibly would create any sort of real issues on the trails I know (which are a good few). I just want to make sure they are never confused with real bikes as far as access.
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    As long as they aren't damaging to the trails I couldn't care less. Traction or lack there of is what generally limits/dictates my speed on the trails. With the exception of going uphill I can't really see an Ebike allowing one to go that much faster on trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I've got no issues with anyone buying an ebike, or wanting to ride it for whatever reason. I'd buy one if I felt the need, they are great vehicles. Since it has a motor on it though, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't or that having a motor driving the rear wheel doesn't matter. All backcountry access gained for bikes up to this point has hinged on the fact that bikes are non motorized, it's unreasonable to expect no one to object to motobikes.

    Ebikes are a different class of vehicle, they should be treated as such.
    There has been no "backcountry access" that has been "gained" by bikes not being electric motor assisted in my area. I'm wondering if this is another blanket statement that really doesn't apply since the ebikes of today really weren't an option years ago.
    If someone has to gain access to land, I wonder if a video of someone ripping down a trail on a downhill FS bike running over everything in sight and throwing dirt and rocks through every corner would be any less objectionable than an ebike. They are also a "different class of vehicle" and should maybe be banned from every public land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    a downhill FS bike running over everything in sight and throwing dirt and rocks through every corner
    Or some "fatbiker" riding off trail and/or through sensitive/muddy areas, thinking it's all good cuz he purchased the latest trendy gear and now the rules (and common sense) no longer apply to him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    There has been no "backcountry access" that has been "gained" by bikes not being electric motor assisted in my area.
    There's never been any opposition to mtb's in Laramie? Trying to getting approvals for motorized bikes on trails would have been just as easy as mtbs? Man, you've got it good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    There's never been any opposition to mtb's in Laramie? Trying to getting approvals for motorized bikes on trails would have been just as easy as mtbs? Man, you've got it good.
    Opposition? There's always opposition to anyone doing something that you aren't doing. Motorized traffic used to be okay everywhere. Now, partially because of the biking community, there are more problems with some people wanting to limit what others can do on public land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Yes, for both private and public lands. We have a very large community of trailworkers here who have developed an outstanding reputation with land managers in general. We do the most work and mostly have been very responsible as a user group for quite a long time. The overwhelming majority of our efforts are 100% volunteer and self-funded (ie - no cost to LMs) and the quality of work is such that our top builders have been contracted by the state DCR to teach trailbuilding clinics. We've made ourselves a very nice bed here. That's the main reason I have strong reservations about just allowing e-bikes to slide in on our coat-tails, as there is a definite potential to change the whole dynamic by bringing motors into the equation.
    ^^^^ What he said. Our mt bike chapters are a not for profit. We spend the money on lots of PT lumber. Each chapter usually covers one or more state parks/forests in their area in which to do work. We have about 30 chapters all over New England and 5,000 + members. Often times we will get requests from the LM for reroutes, new or rebuilt bridges and such. We will sometimes suggest new trails as well. Subject to review as well as conservation and wetlands study too. Nemba raised $ 200,000 to buy a property to keep it from being developed. This tied in with several other conservation parcels too. Nice. A most recent project the NE part of MA involved 3 land stake holders, plus wetlands and conservation issues. We built a looong bridge over where a beaver dam was situated( it's still there) it connects 2 properties and was actually done by a pro trail work team. We as well as lots of volunteers carried in lumber. Worked with the AMC as well as several towns. Truly a cooperative project. Also a really nice grant by REI( way awesome) Part of why we here in MA and NE are vary wary of the whole E bike thing.

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    Thanks for the tip about REI, I've been a member for decades. I'll write their board about their policies on inclusivity and ebikes....... Maybe we can get equal rights, or keep money from being spent on areas where we are banned. What with REI being a multi-sport retailer and not just a bike shop, I am surprised they support organizations that exclude people from the outdoors as opposed to including them.

    It will be interesting to hear how their public relations group justify their support for organizations that favor one group of citizens over another. Perhaps we can shine a light on their discriminatory charity policies and see if such prejudice is supported by their membership. One would think that a policy that provides financial support for bicycle groups that actively discriminate against a whole other class of bicyclists with no actual evidence would be toxic in 2016. It certainly should be possible to make it so.........

    I hadn't thought to follow the money, but I do now. I bet there are dozens of big companies that are susceptible to public pressure that currently support exclusionary groups and can have their minds changed. It may be as easy a shining a light on the problem, they simply may not know that their funds go to support only one side of such controversial issues.

    Thank you again for the tip: if we can get folks mobilized we can at least stop our money being spent to keep us out! BTW, the MTB trail organizations that work so hard to keep ebikes out, proudly list their sponsors on their websites: it makes it easy to find out who to call.
    Last edited by WoodlandHills; 04-25-2016 at 04:42 PM.

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    if such prejudice


    Good luck with that. We've received grants from REI and organized workdays with them, they are all about human powered outdoor adventure, not motorized.

    Seriously though, ebikers as a group could learn well from the experience of mtbrs and switch from a position of blind entitlement, "Our bikes are exactly like other bikes and should be able to go wherever they do!" to accepting that the bikes you ride are motorized and are not the same. They are not motorcycles, but they are not bicycles either, they are a new class of vehicle. You are not grandfathered in just because you would like to be, you have to prove to the people who manage the land that your usage is appropriate in the areas in which you would like to ride. Embrace that you are a new and exciting mode of transportation and do what we did:

    Set up pilot projects, gather data, and prove that you won't increase user conflicts or cause undue damage. European data doesn't count, see below.

    Accept that the situation in the US is unique to here. We don't have the low power restrictions that are accepted in Europe, 200-250W max, with over that being considered mopeds or motorcycles. Our limits are 750W with larger systems readily available and indistiquishable from each other. This will both increase the potential damage and opportunities for user conflict. There also exists here a strong anti bike community.

    Acknowledge that the widely varying powerlevels available on ebikes are a problem for both regulation and enforcement. Come up with a solution.

    Self police - ebike patrols.

    Pick your battles, you won't win them all.

    The regulations have been driven by the ebike/bike industry, they will only open the door, those on the local level are those who will close it and they won't tell you before hand. Bikes aren't restricted nearly as much as ebikes are and we won't ever get everything we want, you won't either.

    Our greatest success has come from solving problems, not from demanding what we believe we are owed. Rogue DH trails? We close them and then raise money to build gravity riding trails in appropriate areas. A$$hats on bikes? Bike patrol nerds to spread the love. Riders causing damage to trails? We reroute them so they are more fun for everyone.

    Be proactive or the idiots on the 1000 watt bikes will ruin it for everyone.

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    Accept that the situation in the US is unique to here. We don't have the low power restrictions that are accepted in Europe, 200-250W max, with over that being considered mopeds or motorcycles. Our limits are 750W with larger systems readily available and indistiquishable from each other.
    The limit in Europe is 250W CONTINUOUS power. The Bosch mid drive for example has 75Nm torque and at 80rpm this equates to approximately 630W of peak power. So is there really a significant power difference between US and EU?
    Also most mtb manufacturers (eg trek, scott) seem to use the Bosch motor in their ebikes, so the major mtb manufacturers comply with the class1 rules.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    ...snip...
    Again, excellent post.

    Simply *****ing about it won't change anybody's mind.
    Time will tell as far as e-bike acceptance. E-bikers themselves will be the deciding factor.
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Thanks for the tip about REI, I've been a member for decades. I'll write their board about their policies on inclusivity and ebikes....... Maybe we can get equal rights, or keep money from being spent on areas where we are banned. What with REI being a multi-sport retailer and not just a bike shop, I am surprised they support organizations that exclude people from the outdoors as opposed to including them.

    It will be interesting to hear how their public relations group justify their support for organizations that favor one group of citizens over another. Perhaps we can shine a light on their discriminatory charity policies and see if such prejudice is supported by their membership. One would think that a policy that provides financial support for bicycle groups that actively discriminate against a whole other class of bicyclists with no actual evidence would be toxic in 2016. It certainly should be possible to make it so.........

    I hadn't thought to follow the money, but I do now. I bet there are dozens of big companies that are susceptible to public pressure that currently support exclusionary groups and can have their minds changed. It may be as easy a shining a light on the problem, they simply may not know that their funds go to support only one side of such controversial issues.

    Thank you again for the tip: if we can get folks mobilized we can at least stop our money being spent to keep us out! BTW, the MTB trail organizations that work so hard to keep ebikes out, proudly list their sponsors on their websites: it makes it easy to find out who to call.
    REi can give grants to whom it likes, they are all about the stewardship of the outdoors. By human power, ski, hike, paddle sports, bikes etc. Prejudice? Discriminate? This a for profit company, not a government or public agency. Do you think they give grants to atv or motorcycle groups? Or maybe hikers, birders, bikers( no motors) type?

  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Thanks for the tip about REI, I've been a member for decades. I'll write their board about their policies on inclusivity and ebikes....... Maybe we can get equal rights, or keep money from being spent on areas where we are banned. What with REI being a multi-sport retailer and not just a bike shop, I am surprised they support organizations that exclude people from the outdoors as opposed to including them.

    It will be interesting to hear how their public relations group justify their support for organizations that favor one group of citizens over another. Perhaps we can shine a light on their discriminatory charity policies and see if such prejudice is supported by their membership. One would think that a policy that provides financial support for bicycle groups that actively discriminate against a whole other class of bicyclists with no actual evidence would be toxic in 2016. It certainly should be possible to make it so.........

    I hadn't thought to follow the money, but I do now. I bet there are dozens of big companies that are susceptible to public pressure that currently support exclusionary groups and can have their minds changed. It may be as easy a shining a light on the problem, they simply may not know that their funds go to support only one side of such controversial issues.

    Thank you again for the tip: if we can get folks mobilized we can at least stop our money being spent to keep us out! BTW, the MTB trail organizations that work so hard to keep ebikes out, proudly list their sponsors on their websites: it makes it easy to find out who to call.

    Cutting off your nose to spite your face! Sadly, I'm not surprised. Take your ball and go home.

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    I'm pissed that REI won't sponsor my off-road steamroller park.
    DISCRIMINATION!!!!


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    I'm so glad I don't have to live there.
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    If I was actually advocating off-road steamrollers, you would have a point. In my state the laws are different from yours: in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes. I simply don't see why my money as a longtime REI member is being spent on groups that actively discriminate against me because they don't like the style of bicycle I ride. As far as giving trail work money to MTB groups that advocate against Class 1 ebike access. Every dollar given by Costco or REI for trail work frees up dollar that the group can now spend on political advocacy against ebike access. Why would I want that?

    Better that business take a hands off approach for a decade or so until things sort themselves out. If pure MTB trails are what the public want and ebikes are just a fad, then you will have lots of money from expansion of your own ranks to build and maintain exclusive trails. You won't need support from places like REI.

    But what if, God forbid, REI, Costco, Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas, etc, all start selling Class 1 eBikes? It will be pretty hard for their management to justify supporting trail groups with exclusionary attitudes and policies at that point. And lots of reasons ($'s) for them to give their charity dollars to equal access groups instead: "Citizens for Equal Access vs Exclusionary Elitists", the headlines almost write themselves, don't they?

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I'm pissed that REI won't sponsor my off-road steamroller park.
    DISCRIMINATION!!!!


    California is a funny place.
    I'm so glad I don't have to live there.
    Is that DH Steamroller or XC?
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  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If I was actually advocating off-road steamrollers, you would have a point. In my state the laws are different from yours: in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes. I simply don't see why my money as a longtime REI member is being spent on groups that actively discriminate against me because they don't like the style of bicycle I ride. As far as giving trail work money to MTB groups that advocate against Class 1 ebike access. Every dollar given by Costco or REI for trail work frees up dollar that the group can now spend on political advocacy against ebike access. Why would I want that?

    Better that business take a hands off approach for a decade or so until things sort themselves out. If pure MTB trails are what the public want and ebikes are just a fad, then you will have lots of money from expansion of your own ranks to build and maintain exclusive trails. You won't need support from places like REI.

    But what if, God forbid, REI, Costco, Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas, etc, all start selling Class 1 eBikes? It will be pretty hard for their management to justify supporting trail groups with exclusionary attitudes and policies at that point. And lots of reasons ($'s) for them to give their charity dollars to equal access groups instead: "Citizens for Equal Access vs Exclusionary Snobs", the headlines almost write themselves, don't they?
    Good thing I don't live in CA. A couple of posts here by passionate riders ( motor and motor free) does not represent a whole group. They are a fad and will sort themselves out. $4-8K and 45-55 lbs? I would love to see someone attempting some of the chunky trails I ride on. And we'll send them all to CA. You don't have any trail access issues, overcrowded trails or limits where you can mt bike there do you? Here in MA we are just trying to nip this in the bud before we all lose access and problems start. Our trails are for all users allowed by law, hikers, dog walkers, birders too. Not just for mt bikers. And we do not discriminate against e bike users, they are welcome to use the same trails that the atv and motorcycles use. Good luck with your CA battles. We will do our own here in MA.

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by sXeXBMXer View Post
    Is that DH Steamroller or XC?
    XC of course.
    DH would be environmentally irresponsible.


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  111. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyvG View Post
    The limit in Europe is 250W CONTINUOUS power. The Bosch mid drive for example has 75Nm torque and at 80rpm this equates to approximately 630W of peak power. So is there really a significant power difference between US and EU?
    Also most mtb manufacturers (eg trek, scott) seem to use the Bosch motor in their ebikes, so the major mtb manufacturers comply with the class1 rules.
    Agreed, most people who don't know a lot about bikes, or ebikes will walk into their LBS and ride out on a bike with a 250-350W motor. I've ridden with many in Europe (mtb) and they give you the ability to climb like a fit racer which should be plenty if the goal is for a pedal assist bike to make up for physical shortcomings. You can't really do much damage with these bikes, they make it much easier to climb and that's about it.

    However, just like MTBs, the enthusiasts who like to build their bikes up specifically by buying a frame and hanging parts, or prefer boutique bikes will and already do embrace ebike kits. Which, since you can legally use a 750W continuous power motor, changes the possibilities dramatically. They can peak out at 1300W, which considering the very top UCI riders can maintain @ 500W for 30 minutes or so is a lot. You could also buy a 1000W motor since they look exactly the same and no one would be the wiser. Or even a 3400W middrive kit wouldn't be noticably different to 99% of the public. Just like the public doesn't know the difference between a skinny XC race bike or a DH bike, they are just mtbs to them, anything with a motor whining past will be an ebike.

    As examples of power:

    350W
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDhhosLdol4

    750W pedalling becomes optional
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dACPe49GfQ0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrSd7geWiPg

    1000W More optional....
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbiN...0gSrRoVr7qhZKm

    1200W FF to 29:00 for the comic relief when he actually has to pedal.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgcGmS9dsPk

    1500W Power on all the time
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzpAFt6a1h8

    2000W and up, they still look like bikes, not motos
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxq3xxXurqU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00-mbVvF-vk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWXR4oy9iLY

    3400W on/power off for a comparison.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chabGOhuYbI

    I don't need to ride an ebike due to a physical limitation. If I was to buy one, I'd expect a serious performance upgrade to offset all that weight. 350W? Please. I'd skip straight to 1000W and maybe beyond, more power = more fun right? Does anyone think I'm the only one like that? A lightweight moto experience would be a hoot.

    The land managers I know are in wait and see mode, since they are are few to none locally. Since no LBS sells them, it'll be kit bikes that arrive first. If there's no real penalty for choosing 1000W over 350W, which would you choose?

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If I was actually advocating off-road steamrollers, you would have a point. In my state the laws are different from yours: in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes. I simply don't see why my money as a longtime REI member is being spent on groups that actively discriminate against me because they don't like the style of bicycle I ride. As far as giving trail work money to MTB groups that advocate against Class 1 ebike access. Every dollar given by Costco or REI for trail work frees up dollar that the group can now spend on political advocacy against ebike access. Why would I want that?

    Better that business take a hands off approach for a decade or so until things sort themselves out. If pure MTB trails are what the public want and ebikes are just a fad, then you will have lots of money from expansion of your own ranks to build and maintain exclusive trails. You won't need support from places like REI.

    But what if, God forbid, REI, Costco, Bass Pro Shops, Cabelas, etc, all start selling Class 1 eBikes? It will be pretty hard for their management to justify supporting trail groups with exclusionary attitudes and policies at that point. And lots of reasons ($'s) for them to give their charity dollars to equal access groups instead: "Citizens for Equal Access vs Exclusionary Elitists", the headlines almost write themselves, don't they?
    Sounds like you've got some windmills to tilt at.
    Let us know how this works out for you.

    Personally, instead of trying to cry, whine, complain and ***** my way onto the trails, I'd concentrate on EARNING my way in. But that's just me.
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  113. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    If I was actually advocating off-road steamrollers, you would have a point. In my state the laws are different from yours: in California Class 1 ebikes are legally the same as pushbikes. I simply don't see why my money as a longtime REI member is being spent on groups that actively discriminate against me because they don't like the style of bicycle I ride.
    Regulations aside, do you believe your style of bicycle is the same as an equivilent non motorized version? They are both bikes, exactly the same? Curious....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Regulations aside, do you believe your style of bicycle is the same as an equivilent non motorized version? They are both bikes, exactly the same? Curious....

    I am not blind, obviously they are not "exactly the same", but they are functionally as far as speeds and trail impact. The fastest guys keep up or run away from me on the hills and we all descend at the same speed......

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    With an extra 250-3000w, you can run the slowest, grippiest DH tires in existence. No flat or uphill penalty (motor>Crr), but you can brake later, harder, and turn faster.

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  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    I am not blind, obviously they are not "exactly the same", but they are functionally as far as speeds and trail impact. The fastest guys keep up or run away from me on the hills and we all descend at the same speed......
    Huh. Have you changed your mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills
    EBiking is a different sport from both bicycling and motorcycling even though it uses a bike-like object to do motorcycle-like things..... It should be appreciated on its own merits.
    https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...19536#p1119536

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills
    I agree that the public are not into science projects, but in my case, it was no more difficult bolting a Bafang BBSHD onto the bike than it was assembling the bike when it arrived in the mail. Everything was plug and play and I end up with 1000 watts continuous and 1500 watts burst for $1500 including the bicycle with a 20ah battery that is good for over 35 miles in the hills. This is NOT a motorcycle, nor is it a bicycle, but rather something in between that is very easy to assemble by any clerk in the bike dept of Walmart, much less a tech at a LBS. With the BBSHD the Bafang mid-drive is a mature product no longer relegated to the experimenter type hobbyist.
    https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...22762#p1122762

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills
    For those who like to poke the bear there is now an ebike forum over at MTBR.com and as one would imagine there are some hysterical reactions. Introducing them to state of the art ebiking should keep things over there at a rolling boil for a few months at least and there might even be an exchange of actual knowledge! ES is great for info about ebiking, but for current MTB tech it's not so hot, to say the least....... It would be nice to have a place to go for pure bike stuff w/o having to pretend I am actually going to pedal the bike in question...
    https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...68317#p1168317

    Bold added by me.

    At least you can see what ebikes really are up against and in all fairness, you do take a more reasonable position than most in the e-mtb community. Bravo for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills
    Given that there is still a Federal 750w limit in force, is there a legal Mid-drive for sale in the USA? One seller says on their website that the BBSHD is a 1000w drive that is only listed as a 750 to evade the law. The BBS02 is supposed to be 750w, if you use 36v?, As of today there is NO LEGAL mid drive sold. If one wanted to go into business building CA and Federally legal electric ebikes it would not be possible: there are no 750w drives for sale in the U.S, even at 36v (36x25=800). Simply ignoring the law or putting false markings on products is a shortcut to disaster for a new industry trying to legitimize itself.

    Do folks honestly think that our opponents in the Lycra/MTB community do not read these forums, do people really think that once they make the relevant agencies aware of the industry wide deception as far as power levels they will turn a blind eye? And what will happen when a child dies in a crash of an illegal drive, will the attorneys decide to ignore the culpability of the company that sold the drive because they are such nice guys? I love eBikes, but some people are living in Dreamland.......
    https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...30257#p1130257

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    Not at all, hiking and horseback riding are different sports to MTBing but they also take place on the same trails. No reason Class 1 ebikes can't join them since they are the same speed as a fit young rider. If your complaint is that ebikes are too fast uphill, then you have to ban all the hyper fit fellows who keep ahead of me on the climbs too since they are faster than I am going uphill. I think we all agree that everyone is the same speed going back down?

    You can also see that I am an equal opportunity criticizer as far as ebikes and MTBs go. It is still my opinion that the rating system the Federal gov't uses to determine power levels is crazy, but that's the law and I am complying with it. If they change the rules and make my motors illegal, I'll replace them with new ones that are or turn down the amps until they are.

    However even with the existing rules, my ebikes not the fastest bikes on the mountain, Class 1 rules make sure of that and as long as the Rocket Boys in Lycra can pass me, what's the problem? Do hikers resent the fact that horseback riders are faster uphill than them? Not as far as I have experienced: it's a different sport that shares the same trails, just like ebikes and pushbikes are different sports that share the same trails.

    That's the whole intent of the CA law making Class 1 ebikes the legal equals of pushbikes, it allows another sport to commingle with the existing ones by keeping the speeds and trail impact the same as the existing users.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    With an extra 250-3000w, you can run the slowest, grippiest DH tires in existence. No flat or uphill penalty (motor>Crr), but you can brake later, harder, and turn faster.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    Why bother with just that? Get an e-dh bike. No longer will long travel bikes be self segregated to shuttling or lift served by the fact that they pedal uphill like crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Not at all, hiking and horseback riding are different sports to MTBing but they also take place on the same trails. No reason ebikes can't join them......
    Ok, maybe I need to talk slower for you to understand. Here in MA, most trails on public land (state forests and parks) are multi use. Many are open to mt bikers, but not all. Some are open to horses, but not all. Some would be too technical and rocky for them. Almost all are open to dog walkers with dogs on leashes. Exceptions do apply. As MA law states, no motor vehicles allowed on multi use trails. There are a few( maybe 6) places in MA that allow motorcycles and ATV's. E bikes are welcome to use those. So the MA law says they are not allowed on multi use trails. That is the reason. Clearer now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Ok, maybe I need to talk slower for you to understand. Here in MA, most trails on public land (state forests and parks) are multi use. Many are open to mt bikers, but not all. Some are open to horses, but not all. Some would be too technical and rocky for them. Almost all are open to dog walkers with dogs on leashes. Exceptions do apply. As MA law states, no motor vehicles allowed on multi use trails. There are a few( maybe 6) places in MA that allow motorcycles and ATV's. E bikes are welcome to use those. So the MA law says they are not allowed on multi use trails. That is the reason. Clearer now?
    So what does that have to do with where I live? In my state the rules are different. Are you suggesting that I obey MA law when I live in CA? I'm not getting YOUR point......

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    However even with the existing rules, my ebikes not the fastest bikes on the mountain, Class 1 rules make sure of that and as long as the Rocket Boys in Lycra can pass me, what's the problem?
    Thanks to the vagueness of the CA regs, it's sort of fuzzy what motors are legal and what aren't as you stated. On face value, I'd say your motor isn't, but I don't really care one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills
    I was wondering why my BBSHD was stamped 750w on the casing, but all the advertising says that it is a 1000w motor? If it is 1000w do I need to buy insurance? More importantly, over 750w is not a legal bicycle in CA so what if the cop or ranger looked online at the ads before citing me?

    I am getting a lot of scrutiny from MTBers in the park where I ride, I thought I was CA Class 1 legal, but if the motor is over 750w then I am not. No matter that I may be in compliance in every other way. The NPS Rangers did an inspection of my bike this weekend and pronounced it Class 1 legal based upon a visual look over. My fear is that a disgruntled MTBer will go online, read the ads touting the 1000w BBSHD and send them to the ranger office in an attempt to get me (and all other eBikes!) banned from the parks.

    If the BBSHD is certified at a lower V or A to keep it below the 750w limit am I then illegal if I run mine at 52v and 30a? I seem to be the first eBike known to be riding in this park and I want to be prepared if anyone tries to make me a Test Case..... Some people are very very determined that NO eBikes will ever have access to MTB trails.

    Please don't advise me to put fake labels on my battery or motor......
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    Speed limits for both e-road and e-mtb would make far more sense even though they are also hard to enforce and easy to bypass. It would be more logical if they were a unique class and allowed where appropriate, instead of pretending they are bikes.

    And, Class one rules "don't make sure" of anything, it all comes down to perception and enforcement. The fact that there are bikes like this:



    Which don't scream over the top extreme e-bike madness visually like a Stealth, are just a trailbike with an unidentified middrive and that are far faster both uphill, in the flats and downhill than the same mtb increase the possibilities of user conflict and the severity of any accidents. You could ride this on your Class 1 trails as long as you didn't rip by a ranger which wouldn't be tough to avoid in most places. This is the problem for both the future of e-bikes and mtbs. I don't want to be lumped in together with that, I'm not sure that after a time, land managers will either.

    I ride on multi use trails that include motos and in the old days, you could hear 2 strokes coming from a distance over the noise you yourself were making. Once 4 strokes took over, they were so quiet, you wouldn't have a clue until you both rounded a corner and scared each other to death. Motors = a higher closing speed, not everyone will ride their e-bikes like a prudent old guy.

    I'm actually reminded by the emergence of ebikes by what happened here with quads. They were around for years of course, mainly used by hunters and ranchers as utility vehicles. Then, the manufacturers made sport models which sold like crazy and people started riding them on the local ORV single track. Unlike motorcycles that take skill to ride and you usually get into through a family member or friend who can show you the ropes, anybody can drive a quad. Sit, steer, pull the trigger. After a few years filled with idiots crashing, hurting themselves because they had no clue how to handle the power and increased user conflicts, they were banned and now they have to drive an hour to ride legally. It could be a similar path with emtbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    I'm actually reminded by the emergence of ebikes by what happened here with quads. They were around for years of course, mainly used by hunters and ranchers as utility vehicles. Then, the manufacturers made sport models which sold like crazy and people started riding them on the local ORV single track. Unlike motorcycles that take skill to ride and you usually get into through a family member or friend who can show you the ropes, anybody can drive a quad. Sit, steer, pull the trigger. After a few years filled with idiots crashing, hurting themselves because they had no clue how to handle the power and increased user conflicts, they were banned and now they have to drive an hour to ride legally. It could be a similar path with emtbs.
    The same thing happened around here. Off road motorcycles used to have quite a few places to ride. Then ATVs became popular, the lowest common denominators bought lots of them and hit the trails, and not too many years later, bam...motorized vehicles of all sorts were banned almost everywhere. The moto riders really caught the shit end of the stick. As a mountain biker, I don't want to catch the shit end of the e-bike stick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    The same thing happened around here. Off road motorcycles used to have quite a few places to ride. Then ATVs became popular, the lowest common denominators bought lots of them and hit the trails, and not too many years later, bam...motorized vehicles of all sorts were banned almost everywhere. The moto riders really caught the shit end of the stick. As a mountain biker, I don't want to catch the shit end of the e
    That's what I fear. Being banned as collateral damage from e-bike conflicts.
    Last edited by rockcrusher; 04-26-2016 at 05:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    That's what I fear. Being banned as collateral damage from e-bike conflicts.
    Its what we all fear. In CA we already have Hiker only trails. Speed limits ect. Hope this doesn't effect what trails stay open to MTBrs long term.
    Last edited by rockcrusher; 04-26-2016 at 05:35 PM.

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    Interesting discussion. Some related reading:

    http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conten...efingPaper.pdf

    http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conten...n-July2015.pdf

    Most interesting is the Forest Service's(and BLM) definition of OPDMD vehicles for the disabled. Contrary to some of the talk in other similar threads ebikes are not granted an exemption for use on multiuse trails, as OPDMD devices include those that are not created specifically for the disabled their use is restricted to areas specifc to their use and open to all users of such vehicles.

    I think California jumped the gun on ebikes, but hopefully we can come up with sensible land management rules at the local level where the residents and stakeholders are aware of the historical user conflicts and can mitigate as they feel appropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    So what does that have to do with where I live? In my state the rules are different. Are you suggesting that I obey MA law when I live in CA? I'm not getting YOUR point......
    I'm suggesting you obey MA law when in MA. On some other posts, seems some have exceeded legal power and can buy fake stickers to deceive authorities. Nice. Our concerns are justified.

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    Your concerns are not justified much to do about nothing the type and power of e bike that are trail approved wont have any impact, the low power trail approved e bike doesn't go any faster then a reg mt bike. Wont spin the tire pull a wheelie but it will allow more people to enjoy mt biking you can bit*h and moan all you want but e bikes are coming to a trail near you . The bike companies are looking for the next big thing and it just might be e bikes they your favorite bike brand want them , but have no fear the e bike will not have any neg impact on your local trail they will have a impact on your local shop selling them .

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    My concerns are people riding trails they are clearly not allowed on because regardless of your perception of the impact of ebikes they are currently classified as motorized vehicles according to the Federal rules I posted. As such any use of ebikes on FS,BLM land that is explicitly posted as multiuse (hiker,horse,bicyle) is prohibited. Lobby for change and increased access, but I would not recommend simply riding under the radar, as that will increase the friction with MTB community and other trail stewards. And potentially lead to a loss of access for all.

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocipedist View Post
    My concerns are people riding trails they are clearly not allowed on because regardless of your perception of the impact of ebikes they are currently classified as motorized vehicles according to the Federal rules I posted. As such any use of ebikes on FS,BLM land that is explicitly posted as multiuse (hiker,horse,bicyle) is prohibited. Lobby for change and increased access, but I would not recommend simply riding under the radar, as that will increase the friction with MTB community and other trail stewards. And potentially lead to a loss of access for all.
    Don't bother arguing this point, they don't get it. This is a heads in the sand stance by e-bike proponents. "La la la I can't hear you" type thing. You can throw logic and law all day and you won't change their understanding that this could jeopardize trail access for all cyclists.

    Frankly I'm of the belief that since they are so militant that they belong without any understanding of why they might not the p-bike community may want to preemptively force land managers to make a decision. It would be worth it in your state if they don't have a bylaw for e-bikes. Then communities could get working on guidelines, approved trails and enforcement if needed.

    This attitude of "do now and ask forgiveness later" reminds me of our early years when we just rode trails until we were kicked off, some we never have regained. If we had worked to get the government to approve us before riding we could probably still be riding those trails and areas.
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    E-bikes don't help anyone enjoy mountain biking. They help people enjoy e-biking or moped riding.

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    You are so wrong its funny My e bike has changed my life my weekends are now fun and meanful as I once again can enjoy the sport I love

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    You are so wrong its funny My e bike has changed my life my weekends are now fun and meanful as I once again can enjoy the sport I love
    Which is great and I applaude you for your drive to stay active and genuinely think it is awesome. I simply do not view their use on posted non motorized multiuse trails as benign. You can argue, which everyone here obviously loves to do, that they are similar and cause environmental impact relative to mountain bikes. However the land managers of the majority of singletrack in the United States i.e. the Forest Service have taken a conservative stance on ebikes that puts them in the same category as motorized vehicles, which I am sure you disagree with. I simply think that if acceptance and access is your goal it behooves you to play by the rules now, to prevent potential future issues and create more allies for your cause. Claiming an OPDMD exemption that does not exist and illegally riding posted non motorized trails will do much greater harm to your cause and hinder the real possiblity of getting access that you desire. In the interim check out the Forest Service MVUM maps for miles of ebike accessible trails.

    If I misconstrued your posts in other threads, and you do not ride singletrack that is posted non motorized unless it's local managing authority has explicity designated it ebike accessible, my apologies and I hope you enjoy your two wheeled adventures.

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    So I take it you are opposed to a person with a disability using a low power e bike to access public trails on public land with no other changes needed to be made?.

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    Yes. I know that may sound harsh, but that is the OPDMD exemption I mentioned. Ebikes do not qualify as they are not specifically designed as mobility devices for the disabled, therefore they are only allowed for use on public trails where their use is open to all members of the public.

    That could change if ebikers as a community lobby for recognition as a seperate user class that could likely be acceptable for use on current non motorized trails retroactively, but my argument is any attempt to treat them as such prior to advocating for changing the current reality and simply poaching public lands will not endear you to the land managers in charge of the trails you wish to ride.

    And that is something mountain bikers are acutely aware of having fought these battles in the past. It is worth noting that the Forest Service left potential exemption discretion authority with the local ranger district, so targeted local advocacy by passionate users could likely create the framework for long term acceptance of ebikes by demonstrating on a case by case basis how the should be managed, that may eventually lead to more trails across the country that allow ebike useage.

    Good luck with your quest, and I hope ebikes will become complementary to mountain bikes by turning current cyclist into your allies by understanding the long standing user conflicts that persist today and not aggravating said issues by claiming access before actually having it.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    This attitude of "do now and ask forgiveness later" reminds me of our early years when we just rode trails until we were kicked off, some we never have regained. If we had worked to get the government to approve us before riding we could probably still be riding those trails and areas.
    It will be interesting to see once sales begin to grow. Statistically, they are invisible currently to MUT users, aside from the small population of DIYers, off the shelf bikes are just starting to be stocked. Judging by what I've seen on the interwebs, which may or may not be accurate, most but not all of the current ebike community were not avid bikers in the past and use them primarily for general transportation with a few riding trails for fun. As such, most are not aware of the trail access issues the mtb community has had over the past 30 years except very generally, nor are aware of how trail access works on the local level.

    Because of this, the prevailing attitude has been that the new regs rightly provide them ligitimacy, where before they simply rode under the radar being a group small enough that no one really noticed or cared unless you were an asshat. The power and speed limitations are largely ignored since they are recognized as being fuzzy to define and difficult to enforce. Tell whoever asks that you're on a legal bike and no one is the wiser. Again, at this point, it's pretty much ride what you'd like, just keep your nose clean around the LEOs and don't be an idiot.

    Once the numbers reach a tipping point, and even if the vast majority of the ebike riders are sensible old dudes and ride 350W bikes, there will be a significant minority who won't. Who like me, would say screw it, I've got an old MTB, I'll buy a 2000W kit, bolt it on and rip around when no one is looking. The old dude me wouldn't be an idiot, but the 25 year old me certainly would have.

    Almost every land manger/ranger/administrator I work with rides mtbs, they are well aware of the realities of allowing bike access in public spaces, the realities of human behavior on public land and enough about ebikes to be wary.

    Legislators don't know squat, the industry lobbyists are in it for their wallets, it's on the local level that access is truly decided. Without ebike versions of mtb trail building orgs and clubs, they could very well be in the situation we were 25 years ago, where like you said, everything was awesome until the doors started slamming shut.

    I'm all for getting people out of cars and off of couches onto ebikes, but like all vehicles, there are appropriate places for them. Expecting mtb orgs to embrace them with open arms on non motor singletrack is naive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    That's what I fear. Being banned as collateral damage from e-bike conflicts.
    And if it comes to this, it will be the angry mountain bikers who make it happen. Angry hikers and equestrians already hate non-motorized bicycles.... adding a motor changes nothing for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    And if it comes to this, it will be the angry mountain bikers who make it happen. Angry hikers and equestrians already hate non-motorized bicycles.... adding a motor changes nothing for them.
    This doesn't even make sense. Angry mountain bikers? Have you read any of the posts regarding access issues?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Your concerns are not justified much to do about nothing the type and power of e bike that are trail approved wont have any impact, the low power trail approved e bike doesn't go any faster then a reg mt bike. Wont spin the tire pull a wheelie but it will allow more people to enjoy mt biking you can bit*h and moan all you want but e bikes are coming to a trail near you . The bike companies are looking for the next big thing and it just might be e bikes they your favorite bike brand want them , but have no fear the e bike will not have any neg impact on your local trail they will have a impact on your local shop selling them .
    Let me pose these questions to you.

    If you were to receive a ticket for riding your e-bike on a designated non-motorized trail, then would you either pay that ticket or fight it in court?

    If you were to fight the ticket in court, then what would your arguments to the judge be?
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    This doesn't even make sense. Angry mountain bikers? Have you read any of the posts regarding access issues?
    Oh... you think it'll be hikers and equestrians that will be complaining about ebikes so much that land managers will decide to ban all bikes because they can't easily distinguish an eMTB from an MTB?

    I think it will be the mountain bikers making 95% of the complaints. ("Ebikes are poaching nonmotorized trails!!")

    MTB access is inhibited mostly because people occasionally go too fast around hikers and equestrians. Those non-cyclists wouldn't know someone was on an MTB or an eMTB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Let me pose these questions to you.

    If you were to receive a ticket for riding your e-bike on a designated non-motorized trail, then would you either pay that ticket or fight it in court?

    If you were to fight the ticket in court, then what would your arguments to the judge be?
    Were I ride is city,county ,or state park not BLM land and the parks around here and the MT bikers are much more friendly then you guys, Let me ask you this if you showed up at my city Mt bike park would you complain and try to get me kicked out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Were I ride is city,county ,or state park not BLM land and the parks around here and the MT bikers are much more friendly then you guys, Let me ask you this if you showed up at my city Mt bike park would you complain and try to get me kicked out?
    Not at all please enjoy the legal resources available for your prefered type of recreation. Do not misunderstand, you are most likely correct that low power ebikes will come to the majority of trails some day. Simply if the past is any guide it behooves you to show better judgment on non motorized trails, unlike some MTBers of yesteryear, to gain your desired access with minimal user conflict of the existing base. Good luck.
    Last edited by Velocipedist; 04-29-2016 at 06:07 PM.

  142. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Were I ride is city,county ,or state park not BLM land and the parks around here and the MT bikers are much more friendly then you guys, Let me ask you this if you showed up at my city Mt bike park would you complain and try to get me kicked out?
    I guess you have no real answers to my questions then.

    Whether or not I would complain to try to get you kicked out or not is a red herring.
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    Not at all please enjoy the legal resources available for your prefered type if recreation. LOL what does that mean??? I guess you have no real answers to my questions then. Yes I do I don,t ride BLM land were I ride the ppl are friendly

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    I have an e-bike so I say yeah. I have a pedal assist e-bike and I think a lot of people think they are like dirt bikes. There are so many benefits to an e-bike I wish that everyone would get a chance to ride one.
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    I ride a e bike I am not a criminal please don't make me one

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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    I ride a e bike I am not a criminal please don't make me one
    Lol

    Quote Originally Posted by rider95
    I am not a lawyer , You want to ride a bike/ppl path that clearly states no motorized (anything) short answer yes you will be breaking the law , the sad truth is all e bikes break the law sometimes some were because E bikes are not understood . I travel around the mid and southeast riding the best trails I can find and every were I ride I am breaking the rules sometimes the law , the chances you will get caught are next to none with your bike few if any will know it's elec just peddle don,t go zooming around not peddling and you will be fine .
    https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...05354#p1105354

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    Quit riding prohibited trails and all criminal guilt will be lifted. Ticketed and forced to pay a fine I wish, but I will settle for public shaming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyBikeRider View Post
    I have an e-bike so I say yeah. I have a pedal assist e-bike and I think a lot of people think they are like dirt bikes. There are so many benefits to an e-bike I wish that everyone would get a chance to ride one.
    Do you mean dirt bikes like 3400W e-moto bikes like this one?

    https://proaddicts.com/es/video?video=209

    You think it's "Awesome!!!!" evidently in this post.

    Downhill ride video with a Kona with EGO-kit

    These are the bike shaped objects that are the problem, for both ebike access and mtb access. They are both easy to get and will be very tempting to a certain segment of the population. What young freerider dude wouldn't want one? No more shuttles, no more pushing uphill. Perfect. Plus, they don't look like a Stealth, or any different from any middrive ebike, so they're easy to blend in with.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocipedist View Post
    Quit riding prohibited trails and all criminal guilt will be lifted. Ticketed and forced to pay a fine I wish, but I will settle for public shaming.
    Ah public shaming ?? lol I am a old dude riding a e bike lol your scared of me ?????

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    Ok now its the public shaming not to be confused with shooting me or sticking a wood or steel rod in to my something , not least stealing my battery when holding me down

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    I would never physically assault, I would simpy call out bad behavior and take photographs, no desire to anger unless upon being admonished for illegally riding your masquerading as a bicycle electric motorbike on trails they are prohibited you become verbally or physically unhinged, that is out my control and would think very stressful for an elder such as yourself. Do you fail to realize that your actions are the problem, not our lack of acceptance. Continue as you are and reap what you sow, karma has many forms. Seems a lot easier to stick to motorized trails and work for access, but oh no wait I am the quinsential American consumer and I spent money on first world goods and I deserve to be able to use them in any way I see fit rules, laws, and reality be damned. Peculier perspectives are perplexing poor me.
    Last edited by Velocipedist; 04-30-2016 at 11:22 AM.

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    Isnt having any motor on your bike illegal for Trails that say "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" ?

    Pretty straight forward if you ask me. You can take your motor bike on the streets and to the desert! =)

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by btsjeff View Post
    Isnt having any motor on your bike illegal for Trails that say "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" ?

    Pretty straight forward if you ask me. You can take your motor bike on the streets and to the desert! =)
    That is the law. I completely agree.

    It sort of begs the question then, what arguments would an e-bike rider use in court when ticketed for violating that law?

    I would just love an answer to that because the arguments set forth in this and other threads appear very unlikely to succeed in a court proceeding.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    Yes I do I don,t ride BLM land were I ride the ppl are friendly

    You do/you don't ride BLM land? What on earth are you trying to say here?
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by btsjeff View Post
    Isnt having any motor on your bike illegal for Trails that say "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" ?

    Pretty straight forward if you ask me. You can take your motor bike on the streets and to the desert! =)
    Not where I live in Southern California: the Rangers all say that ebikes are welcome despite what the signs say......

    They are working on new language that will keep ICE vehicles out but permit Class 1 legal ebikes. There are also budget issues with altering or replacing so many signs.

  156. #156
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    So motorized e-bikes are going to be allowed on trails that bikes can ride, but non-motorized bikes cant ride on many trails limited to only hiking and horse back riding?? This kind of hypocritical law making makes no sense to me. Why are non-motorized bikes being banned from areas they should be allowed access and motorized bikes being allowed in the same category as non-motorized bikes.

    If these e-bikes dont cause anymore harm than regular bikes and that is the argument used to allow them access to the trails, then the same argument can be used for non-motorized bikes to have access to trails on Public lands (blm managed land), FS lands, Etc that bikes dont have access to.

  157. #157
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    California has a government policy of encouraging electric vehicles of all kinds, not just ebikes: making low powered throttleless ebikes the legal equivalent of pushbikes is just that policy expressed as legislation. Another example is that the law pretends that my electric car has two people in it when there is actually only one. This permits me to use special carpool lanes even if I am alone in my EV.

  158. #158
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    For "clarification"; CA passed an assembly bill (AB-1096) that Class 1,2 & 3 electric bicycles were taken out of the category of motorized vehicles. The law didn't say they no longer had a motor (any idiot knows they do), just that they weren't a "motorized vehicle"; by law they were an electric bicycle. There are trails out here now that have signs prohibiting electric bicycles. What will happen in other off-road areas is anyone's guess.
    It's also interesting (to me) that IMBA is doing a study comparing the trail damage from eMTB's with pMTB's and hoping that eMTB's are more damaging. Oops! The study shows no or negligible difference so far.
    Also, think it's humorous that some individuals think people who have never ridden a bike before are going to purchase an eMTB and blow them off the trails. Seems like a fast learning curve.
    Additionally, get a kick out of the elitist, entitled people that are willing to stop an 80 year old, physically challenged individual on a motorized scooter, take pictures and engage this person in fisticuffs if necessary, but cower in fear if a downhiller is travelling 40 mph scaring horses and people off the trail and ripping up the terrain. Too bad you can't employ your righteous indignation and vitriol where it belongs; you there, can come out from behind that pucker bush now.

  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodlandHills View Post
    Not where I live in Southern California: the Rangers all say that ebikes are welcome despite what the signs say......

    They are working on new language that will keep ICE vehicles out but permit Class 1 legal ebikes. There are also budget issues with altering or replacing so many signs.
    The rangers are wrong if it is Federal land. Or they need to post signage explicitly allowing ebikes if their district has actually authorized their use.

    Pretty sure the California regs everyone loves to mention does not apply to open space areas and in as much as you can use use them in state parks their implied use is on manmade surfaces not trails. My google fu is weak, will update when I find the link clarifying California's current regulations.

    Here it is from Outside from last year, me thinks ebikers are taking part in cognitive dissonance.
    http:// http://www.outsideonline.com...-e-bike-debate

    From the article
    Some mountain bikers worry that the legislation will also open up trails to eMTBs, but it does not. The bill applies only to bike paths, lanes, routes, and protected lands that are governed by the stateís vehicle code.
    Bold is mine, non motorized trails are not governed by state vehicle code. Time to get your advocacy hat on, or continue to flaunt the rules as they are not well known and easy to break. I will need popcorn as the deja vu of what MTBers did 20 years ago. I don't see ebikes access issues negatively effecting MTBs in the long term, they will simply shoot themselves in the foot acting as they currently are.

  160. #160
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    Changing the status of the vehicle has no effect on trails in open spaces and parks that are not governed by said vehicle code. I do see local managers granting access on acase by case basis, and support such efforts. There is nothing in that law that creates blanket access for ebikes on trails.

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocipedist View Post
    Changing the status of the vehicle has no effect on trails in open spaces and parks that are not governed by said vehicle code. I do see local managers granting access on acase by case basis, and support such efforts. There is nothing in that law that creates blanket access for ebikes on trails.
    I never said that there was. I HAVE stated over and over again that our local parks grant ebikes the same access rights as pushbikes however. Apparently the local Rangers and their managers, federal and state, have decided to comply with the spirit of the new law. Nothing compels them to do so, but they seem to have taken a suck it and see attitude..... If the rowdy element that already exists in the ranks of MTBers switches to 3000w electric motocrossers and starts to terrorize the climbs like they do the descents on their DH bikes then I am sure that even Class 1 ebikes will be banned. But for now that hasn't happened.

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    I think that maybe e-bike's should be split apart. My e-bike, which is pedal assist, still kicks my butt. You have to pedal to keep going. Eventually you run out of steam. Sure, it lets me go up hills faster, but I don't think I have ever seen an videos of people riding up hill, it's only ever downhill. So if uphill is just a recovery, why not make it easier so that you can keep riding? I ride until I fatigue, it may be 5 miles unpowered, or 15 miles powered. I'd rather spend the day riding then half a day.
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  163. #163
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    Woohoo! "CA passed an assembly bill (AB-1096) that Class 1,2 & 3 electric bicycles were taken out of the category of motorized vehicles."

    Time to save up for my new, self shuttling, 180mm Ebike! Don't worry, I'll be courteous and polite to other trail users as well.

  164. #164
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    I love seeing the bigots haters get proven wrong on here they speak of the law and have no room for people who don't agree with them . To hell with me and my e bike just because I am handicap and need my e bike to enjoy public land as they do. Just read the post I am hated on here repeatedly I am threated with all kinds of harm from shooting me to beating me up to stealing my battery nice people on this form . One of the post says he gonna fallow me around and take pictures another demands that I tell him what my defense will be in court!! lol all so funny I ride with my gopro so I am always filming so when the haters posted above attack me I will be ready!!

  165. #165
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    I know that states are at odds with limiting ebikes and the Americans with Disabilities Act. As you said, ebikes are great for people with disabilities.
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  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinoyMTBer View Post
    Woohoo! "CA passed an assembly bill (AB-1096) that Class 1,2 & 3 electric bicycles were taken out of the category of motorized vehicles."

    Time to save up for my new, self shuttling, 180mm Ebike! Don't worry, I'll be courteous and polite to other trail users as well.
    Congrats!! I live in PA and they made ebikes legal for road use only a year and a half ago.
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  167. #167
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    Reading comprehension is lacking in this group, I never hated on anyone, and I simply said I would verbally inform you of your illegal activity were I to witness it. The only reference to violence was what you might do upon being called out, a hypothetical I created from the general tone of your posts. Again I would take a few pics and share them publicly to out the bad actors giving ebikers a bad name. Just the same as I would a MTBer poaching a hiking trail.

    I have 0 issues with all the ebikers that are in California riding in areas that have posted or tacit permission to ride ebikes. That has been done at the local level as it should be, and as I have agreed is the best way foward. You ( rider95 ) seem to be the only ebiker that is publicly and vocally taking pride in illegally riding trails because they are "misunderstood" and really just bicycles.

    You sir are misunderstood, they are currently classified as motorized and no OPDMD exists to allow you access to non motorized trails on Federal land. Stick to legal local options or use the extensive OHV trails that you are legally allowed to ride when on Federal public lands.

    I fail to see how I am being unreasonable or hating when all of the hyperbole is coming from your mouth. You have no claim to access, you must work for it through your actions. That seems to be the point you are missing, and feel free to continue disregarding reality in favor of your skewed perception. While you are at it ask downhillers how well that has worked for them through the years.

  168. #168
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    PA has some great riding I am gonna be at High Point raceway for the MX natl were I use my e bike to get around on there , just another example of how my e bike has made my life better . There is a lot of mistrust misunderstanding about e bikes lots of misinformation too its easy from this form . So I say lets ride come and meet me and my e bike and see for your self , High Point is about 20mi n of Morgan town wv in PA . even if we agree to disagree we both may lean something .

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    Of course I would not want to ride with the village idiot

  170. #170
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    Where is the misinformation?

    You are not allowed on non motorized trails unless the local management have explicity allowed it. Being disabled does not give you the right to use your ebike on said trails. I only keep poking you because in your prior posts you have commented on how you ride where you want, completely ignoring the potential illegality of your actions and their potential for hindering your riding options for the future.

    I fail to see how we are the hating bigots when you are denying the current reality of existing regulations and rather than debate with us on the merits of your position you simply resort to name calling, platitudes, and equivocations.

    Please enjoy your ebike where it is legal to do so. Why your bad behavior being pointed out is bigoted hate speech I do not understand.

  171. #171
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    Most of the discussion about e-bikes has been about e-bikes replacing pedal only bikes. I wonder how many would give up their motos if they where allowed to ride their e-bikes on trails that are moto illegal? I know I fall into that category .

  172. #172
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    They are not pedal only bikes. They are bicycles. E-bikes are not bicycles, they are some kind of mo-ped.
    I do not understand why someone with such a disability that they have to have a e-bike to get into the wilderness would risk being stranded with a flat or broken chain in a area where they couldn't walk out. Remember that they are disabled.
    Why does someone have to go for many miles into the wilderness? When I started riding a couple miles was just right. Then my fitness and skill took me further.
    The excuse that my spouse needs it to keep up doesn't stand either. Maybe you are just a dick and need to learn some patience to encourage you spouse rather then tell them to go faster or keep up.
    I have been to many motorsport events and have seen all kinds of pit transportation. Many of the operator's go too fast in the crowds. Why would you need a e-bike over a bicycle?

  173. #173
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    I fully support a disabled person's choice to ride an e-bike on trails where they are legal. In my opinion this discussion has no nothing to do with need and everything to do with legal access.

    The loophole exists a disabled person could make a new vehicle specifically for disabled people that allows them to ride singletrack that is non motorized unfortunatey current ebikes do not fit that definition, because they are not specifically designed and intended for the disabled as a mobility device and they were not intended for indoor use. The two clauses in the OPDMD that would permit a disabled person using a motorized device on non-motorized designated trails.

    Therefore they are not allowed on trails at the moment. Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me.

  174. #174
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    I'm sure there are not hoards of e bike people looking to overtake regular mt bike trails...
    ...all the people I have met just want to ride their e-bikes.

  175. #175
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    I just saw a Sondors yellow fat tire bike sunday besides my e bike that's the first e bike I have seen out riding in two yrs . And it was on a paved bike path I have never seen another e bike on the trail any were. I wish some of you could ride that bike then you would see all the fuss is unwarranted.

  176. #176
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    And how many times will you continue to miss the forest for the trees. It matters not how courteous and friendly ebikers are, and it is about their flagrant abuse of everyone's land with prohibited vehicles.

    Ebiker, pirate downhiller, XC racer I don't care what you ride, I am calling out bad behavior exactly as I would of any person misusing multiuse trails.

    Your righteous indignation at be called out for your breaking of the rules and and inability to understand why is the strangest thing in this thread.

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    I'm sure there are not hoards of e bike people looking to overtake regular mt bike trails...
    ...all the people I have met just want to ride their e-bikes.
    And they are going to ride them where? Just on paved and dirt roads?

  178. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    And they are going to ride them where? Just on paved and dirt roads?
    Don't you think they will behave like any other MTBer would when sitting on their DH bike at the top of a cool trail that is posted "No Trespassing"? I am certain that no one in the MTB community would ever trespass or violate rules, regulations or laws, simply to selfishly enjoy themselves on land they are not permitted....... Right? I am sure if ebikes take their cues from what they see on the trails we should all be just fine, all we have to do is self-police as successfully as you guys.

  179. #179
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    The hypocrisy is thick in the ebike community..... cruise the forums. They will tout the legality of an up to 750W "low powered" motor here, and their right to ride where they'd like, while the majority are on 1000W and up that can easily make 30-35 mph in the flats without pedalling. They still consider a motor powered bike you no longer need to pedal a "bicycle".

    The door has been opened to ebike use based on bikes like those in Europe which are legally limited in most places to 250-350W. Which in practical terms means they only have enough power to assist you when pedalling, they are inefective with a throttle only in moving you over flat ground. Any studies coming forth on trail damage will also be based on that low power level since it's the only population of bikes large enough to study.

    Here, with the 750W higher limit and with that easily stretched to 1000 or 1500W by look alike motors, you are entering what most people would consider e-moped territory, where you might want to help out by pedalling on the steepest climbs, but you can be under motor power in the flats or downhill. In effect, you assist the motor, not the motor assisting you.

    On top of that, you can buy 2000W - 5000W kits that are edging into e-motobike territory, yet are at rest, indistinguishable from a 750W kit.

    From a forum post, 1000W kit mounted on a hardtail:

    Between the lefty shock and the Cirrus seatpost/hookworm tires it rides like a dream. No fatigue, cruises over potholes doing 30+ no problem.
    For some specs it weighs 51 pounds, max speed of about 35 mph on flat on a fresh charge in an aero tuck with motor only and I put out 1500 watts according to the batt-man.
    On a slight downhill I have had it up to 43 mph and I'm sure I could have gotten more.
    https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...33fe267e319df0

    What motor for offroad mtb, 1000 or 1500W?:

    So what are you asking for? Advice about a full on off road motorcycle with pedals? or a street ride? A bike with a 20 buck fork is fine on the street. For serious off road riding you are looking at bikes with $500-$1500 forks.
    https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...33fe267e319df0

  180. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flucod View Post
    This is what you wrote -

    "trails that are free to mountain bike only charge and licence e-bikes to afford to police e-bikes. places that charge regular bikes charge more for e-bikes. You're just dead set against e-bikes and know reasons why it would be bad, can quote the facts on your side and totally dismiss anything that might intrude upon your point of view. Come on, this is not a religious debate, logic and reason are acceptable."

    If you want to have THAT discussion we can, but I stand by my convictions. Better just leave religion off of this sight, but you went there. And now cry foul.

    Also derserved the Neg Rep for riding an E-Bike.

    Where is MountainCycleShawn when I need him?
    You my friend need to take a remedial English course. My comment implied we should keep religion off the discussion, sorry you were unable to interpret the inference correctly.

    And I neither own nor ride an E-bike, I just don't have a biased hatred for them based on illogical fear of what they may possibly do to my ability to ride a mountain bike.

    I have been through this already back in the 70s and 80s with dirtbikes. Everyone said that allowing ATVs and Quads would destroy the trails, and they would be shut down, we would lose all our places to ride because of them.

    Funny thing was the adding of ATVs and Quads to most trails actually kept many of them open because there were more people using them, the trails that got shut down
    were single tracks where ATVs and Quads couldn't go. 90% of the single tracks for dirt bikes got shut down in the 90s. Michigan went from a million miles of legal state dirt bike trails to under 100k of legal trails in just one year.

  181. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by armii View Post
    the trails that got shut down
    were single tracks where ATVs and Quads couldn't go. 90% of the single tracks for dirt bikes got shut down in the 90s. Michigan went from a million miles of legal state dirt bike trails to under 100k of legal trails in just one year.
    Around here, the ATVs were the main reason that singletrack was closed to all motors. Dirt bikers got screwed because all of a sudden, the LCD was on a mission to blow out all the singletrack into beat-to-shit ATV tracks. When it was 2 wheels, there was far, far less wear and tear on trails, and a couple passes didn't entirely change the character of a trail for the worse for every other user group, unlike ATVs.
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  182. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by rider95 View Post
    I love seeing the bigots haters get proven wrong on here they speak of the law and have no room for people who don't agree with them . To hell with me and my e bike just because I am handicap and need my e bike to enjoy public land as they do. Just read the post I am hated on here repeatedly I am threated with all kinds of harm from shooting me to beating me up to stealing my battery nice people on this form . One of the post says he gonna fallow me around and take pictures another demands that I tell him what my defense will be in court!! lol all so funny I ride with my gopro so I am always filming so when the haters posted above attack me I will be ready!!
    Good grief. I was about to neg rep you for this post, but there is most likely a vein already bulging out of your forehead and it sounds like you are about to give yourself a stroke. So I'll hold off on that for whatever little good it might do.

    Hopefully I'm misreading this and you aren't as wound up as you sound. But it couldn't hurt to just chill out just a tiny bit. Maybe take your e-bike out for a ride, on a trail where they allowed motorized vehicles.

  183. #183
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    Guys, can we all just get along and ride our bikes?

    California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW.

    So if anyone is riding their ebikes and get stopped. Make sure that you have a printed copy of this bill and show the ranger/police. If you are on a Ca State Park trail, you are protected! Trails on Federal land or privately owned parks..ehh, ????.

    Either way, if you get a ticket...Fight it! It'll force them to update those outdated signage. If any "haters" threaten you with bodily harm. They're breaking a different law and you have every right to defend yourself.
    Last edited by PinoyMTBer; 05-02-2016 at 01:46 PM.

  184. #184
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    Wow... Lots of mis-information! Love it, keep spewing!
    Goya! It's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes. Livin in an Idiocracy.

  185. #185
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    You are wrong because the law you quote governs use on bike paths, and does not instantly allow ebikes on non motorized trails in open spaces except for a those locations that have publicly stated they approve of your ebike use.

    How hard is it to ask about current access before you ride and act accordingly. Poaching because you perceive access or feel justified in taking it, and publicly trumpeting your conquests should result in poo flingage.

    Are you so thin skinned and delusional that you think I have said something other "Enjoy your ebike where it is legal and stay off where it isn't".?

  186. #186
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    Here print this out and keep a copy in your backpack. Just ignore the haters, they spend way more time on the internet than actually riding. Have fun and don't kill the flow!

    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01520160AB1096

  187. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velocipedist View Post
    You are wrong because the law you quote governs use on bike paths, and does not instantly allow ebikes on non motorized trails in open spaces except for a those locations that have publicly stated they approve of your ebike use.

    How hard is it to ask about current access before you ride and act accordingly. Poaching because you perceive access or feel justified in taking it, and publicly trumpeting your conquests should result in poo flingage.

    Are you so thin skinned and delusional that you think I have said something other "Enjoy your ebike where it is legal and stay off where it isn't".?
    Dude! You have way too much stress and anxiety in this comment. You need a reset, shutdown the computer...grab your bike and enjoy the ride! You've been on this forum for way too long now.

  188. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinoyMTBer View Post
    Guys, can we all just get along and ride our bikes?

    California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW.

    So if anyone is riding their ebikes and get stopped. Make sure that you have a printed copy of this bill and show the ranger/police. If you are on a Ca State Park trail, you are protected! Trails on Federal land or privately owned parks..ehh, ????.

    Either way, if you get a ticket...Fight it! It'll force them to update those outdated signage. If any "haters" threaten you with bodily harm. They're breaking a different law and you have every right to defend yourself.
    California law has no relevance to my local singletrack.

  189. #189
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    Keep in mind:

    "With respect to the permitted use of vehicles or animals on property under the direct control of the legislative body of a municipality, no change in the use of vehicles or animals on the property, that had been permitted on January 1, 1976, shall be effective unless and until the legislative body, at a meeting open to the general public, determines that the use of vehicles or animals on the property should be prohibited or regulated."

    and

    "The local authority or governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over a bicycle path or trail, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, may prohibit, by ordinance, the operation of a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle on that path or trail."

    It seems this bill really only affects things in state parks. Local, county, private, federal lands appear to keep whatever rules they had in place beforehand. State land managing agencies also have the option of prohibiting e-bikes or limiting their access.

    This is not a blanket 'free pass' as many seem to believe.
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  190. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Keep in mind:

    "With respect to the permitted use of vehicles or animals on property under the direct control of the legislative body of a municipality, no change in the use of vehicles or animals on the property, that had been permitted on January 1, 1976, shall be effective unless and until the legislative body, at a meeting open to the general public, determines that the use of vehicles or animals on the property should be prohibited or regulated."

    and

    "The local authority or governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over a bicycle path or trail, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, may prohibit, by ordinance, the operation of a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle on that path or trail."

    It seems this bill really only affects things in state parks. Local, county, private, federal lands appear to keep whatever rules they had in place beforehand. State land managing agencies also have the option of prohibiting e-bikes or limiting their access.

    This is not a blanket 'free pass' as many seem to believe.
    Please read my comment again...You may have missed a part of it (blinded by your bigotry and unreasonable hate for ebikes) Besides, if you guys hates ebikes so much...What are you guys doing in an Ebike discussion?

  191. #191
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    Haters hate. They'll move on when they find something else to hate.
    What's really humorous are the individuals that state a judge will call an ebike a motorized vehicle when the law of the state defines otherwise.
    Equally ridiculous are those who feel entitled to the land for themselves because they attended a meeting or pulled a few weeds. Do they actually think they have more rights than a service, police, fire person or for that matter anyone else? Haha

  192. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinoyMTBer View Post
    .You may have missed a part of it (blinded by your bigotry and unreasonable hate for ebikes)
    Please feel free to go **** yourself.
    Sinister Bikes
    Wraith Bicycles
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    NEMBA
    Wachusett Brewing Co.

  193. #193
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    @Fos

    Yep! I agree, they just hate for the sake of it. I honestly don't think they ride at all. Probably Sierra Club members lurking in our discussions and trying to "divide and conquer" us.

  194. #194
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    By the way for those who don't know, and since, apparently, we don't have a moderator for ebikes (the only moderator who has posted in totally against them), an individual can flag profane, discriminatory downright stupid or some other form of imbecilic comment like the one above by opening the triangle at the bottom of the thread and reporting it.

  195. #195
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    No need to get rid of those posts. Leave them there and let's show everyone how ignorant these haters are. I'm not offended at all, I find it funny!

  196. #196
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    PMTB, you're totally correct; shows the depth of depravity, ignorance and stupidity of the anti crowd. Leave it in.

  197. #197
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    @slapheadmofo...Dude! Your name suites you perfectly!

  198. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinoyMTBer View Post
    Please read my comment again...You may have missed a part of it (blinded by your bigotry and unreasonable hate for ebikes) Besides, if you guys hates ebikes so much...What are you guys doing in an Ebike discussion?
    Having a discussion about where we consider their use to be appropriate?

    I think you might be mistaken in your assumption that anyone who is critical of their allowance on non motorized singletrack is a "hater". I don't hate them, as well with others here, I feel that they are great vehicles, either riding them for transportation, for pure fun or to enable someone who might not otherwise be able to get out in the woods. If I had the spare change, I'd have one myself. I don't however consider them to be the same as a bicycle since they have a motor, or believe there is an effective way to enforce any regulation in the US, no matter what legislation is passed. This poses a threat to ebike access which could also affect mtb access.

    The preception that one ebike is the same as another is appealing when viewed from the proponents side (Since I ride a low power ebike, we all do, right?", but it will hurt you and us when viewed by the opponents. Get a certain percentage of 1500W+ idiots out there riding disrespectfully and we'll all get tarred with the same brush. Sure, we have our share of idiots too, but it takes a lot more effort to ride like an idiot when you have to pedal than when you have an electic motor doing the work. Plus, it allows you to be an idiot for longer and more often.

    I'm not willing to risk our reputation for a new user group, no matter if they are on two wheels or none.

    At least on this forum, there hasn't been any response from the pro ebike members on these issues aside from waving the CA regs, saying that "no one minds me since I ride responsibly", or telling feel good stories on how little Jimmy can now ride. No one says anything on how the ebike community is organizing, coming up with solutions to the future problems you will face when there is no longer one e-mtber per county, but 100 in each park and power limits are ignored and a free for all. The ebike world you ride in now, is not representative of the ebike world 5 years into the future.

    Knowing what I know now, if I was you, I'd be in my local park rangers office working out with them how my organization was going to control the nitwits on high powered bikes and trying to save my access, because that is what it will eventually come to.

    In the meantime, enjoy your (presumed legal) ebike where it legally allowed, I'll do the same with my bike.

  199. #199
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    Thanks Harryman,

    I agree on some topics you pointed out. But I'm not one to preemptively ban a rider demographic based in the assumption that some people will mod their rigs and get all of us in trouble. I just don't follow the "Slippery Slope" excuse. It's the person riding that breaks laws and causes trail access loss. Not an inanimate object such as an ebike.

    1> Name ONE event where an Ebiker caused so much problems that resulted in the loss of trail access.

    2> I'm sure we've heard of MANY events where MTB (not Ebikes) riders, injuring themselves and/or others because they're trying so hard to get that KOM. Heck some have lost their life. Those are the people we should ban! Not the Ebike or the people that rides em.

  200. #200
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    E-Bikers in California

    California Bill AB-1096 is now California LAW (effective 01/2016) Like it or not, you will see these bikes on your local singletracks. Even if they have the signs that say no to motorized vehicles. These outdated signs were meant for motorcycles and ATVs. Plus they were put up before this new law was signed and made LAW. So all the e haters are proven wrong LOL perfect!

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