E-Bike advocacy in the Bay Area, California- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 41 of 41
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92

    E-Bike advocacy in the Bay Area, California

    I wanted to let people on here know about my recent experience getting into E-Bike advocacy for the first time. I think it's important for people to get involved if they want to get more trails opened to legal E-Bike usage.

    I live in the Bay Area, CA where there are lots of different land managers and different rules in each place. I have yet to find a sign anywhere in the East or South Bay banning E-Bikes, but if you dig on the web you can usually find the land use regulations.

    Well, I hadn't done that and was riding in the Mid Peninsula open space last weekend with a friend and got stopped by a ranger who said they are not allowed. There are signs that say "No Motorized Vehicles" all over the place, but according to AB 1096 which became law in 2015, Electric Bicycles are not motor vehicles:

    "24016. (b) Aperson operating an electric bicycle is not subject to the provisionsof this code relating to financial responsibility, driver’slicenses, registration, and license plate requirements, and an electric bicycle is not a motor vehicle."

    The law further goes on to specify that Class 1 E-Bikes can be used anywhere a non-powered bike can unless the land manager decides against their use, but signs must be posted if that is the case. Mid-Pen has no E-Bike specific signs, but they have the rule in their land-use regulations and the rangers are enforcing it. Ug.

    Here's where it gets interesting. I was given the option of a verbal warning or a written warning, and the ranger suggested that if I wanted to help the cause I should take the written warning because they count those. He claimed that the more documentation they have that e-Bikes are being used, the more likely it will be that the rule will be changed in favor of them. He also asked me to go speak at the next board meeting to move the process along faster.

    So I took the written warning and went to the board meeting today to speak. They give you 3-minutes but I went over a bit andy they allowed it. I had a nice speech prepared and it was well received. I used my motorized vehicle argument and I think they knew exactly what I was talking about and knew that the lack of signage is a problem, but they don't want to put up signs that they will just end up taking down later (I was told this by the ranger that stopped me). I was told that they have someone working on it and they thanked me for speaking.

    Afterwards, one of the staff members and the head ranger came to thank me personally for showing up and speaking. The ranger really wanted the rule to be changed because they feel they are wasting their time issuing warnings to e-Bike riders. It does no harm and makes no sense to them and they would rather not do it. They ask everyone they stop to go speak at the board meetings but hardly anyone actually does it.

    So if any of you Bay Area E-Bike riders want to help, please go to a Mid Peninsula Open Space District meeting and sign up to advocate for E-Bike usage. California law is clearly on our side, and it looks like it's going to happen eventually, but every little bit of support helps. Mid-Pen really has some great riding if you've never been there, and if you have, you know what I'm talking about!

    https://www.openspace.org/about-us/board-meetings

  2. #2
    Single(Pivot)and Happy
    Reputation: Boulder Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,779
    If you ride electric motorized bicycles and want to have the privilege to ride them on trails then follow this example. Showing up is 90% of advocacy.

    The OP is fortunate to have had a warm reception, which must be capitalized upon. Build your case, expand your list of contacts, pay attention to the opposition.

    If one thinks about, the decision to take the time to prepare, travel and have 3 minutes to address an Open Space Board meeting has produced a positive experience that is focusing attention on the merits of the ban of electric motorized bicycles and has stimulated dialog.

    Just by showing up, taking 3 minutes, and real, positive, results. Think about this before starting your next thread about why you believe electric motorized bicycles (fill in the blank).

    In 1/10th of the time it will take you to type your response to a post in a thread on a forum on the internet, notb produced a positive interaction that resulted in people with the authority to make decisions are now focusing on the ban, what the ban means and what are the options. Think about all the time you spend typing posts on this site. 3 minutes. Thank you notb for doing more for your cause than 98% of your peers.
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

  3. #3
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,856
    Since you're interested in advocacy, you should realize that a Motor Vehicle is a specific DOT classification, which requires motorized vehicles like cars and motorcycles to have turn signals, license, insurance and all that stuff. A motorized vehicle is a general term describing any one with a motor. The intent of the Class 1-3 legislation was to define ebikes more spedifically than before and to exclude them from those requirements. Motor Vehicle and motorized vehicle aren't the same thing.

    "No ebike" signs have a way of vanishing soon after posting, so I wouldn't rely too heavily on signage for determining where they're legal to ride.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    5,510
    ^^^ What he said. Does it have a motor? It's motorized. Yes there are some specific CA ebike wording, as mentioned.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    A motorized vehicle is a general term describing any one with a motor. The intent of the Class 1-3 legislation was to define ebikes more spedifically than before and to exclude them from those requirements. Motor Vehicle and motorized vehicle aren't the same thing.

    "No ebike" signs have a way of vanishing soon after posting, so I wouldn't rely too heavily on signage for determining where they're legal to ride.
    You could be right, but it will probably take someone with deep pockets to clarify that in court. A careful reading of AB 1096 is necessary, but it's clear that the intent was to classify Class 1 E-Bikes as being the same as bicycles, but allow land managers to ban them in California if they want to. It also says "21113. (b)*A governing board, legislative body, or officer shall erect or place appropriate signs giving notice of any special conditions or regulations that are imposed under this section...".

    The word "Shall" means "expressing a strong assertion or intention" so as a legal term it means that if land managers want to ban E-Bikes, they need to post signs since they now have the same rights as bicycles.

    Anyway, it was clear to me that they don't want to post more signs. Since they haven't already put them up, it's a simple matter to allow E-bikes by just removing "Electric Bicycles" from their land use regulations. They even have a "Bicycle Access Guidelines" brochure that has no mention of E-Bikes being banned. Any reasonable person would expect them to be allowed unless they happened to read the land use regulations in detail.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by Boulder Pilot View Post
    Thank you notb for doing more for your cause than 98% of your peers.
    Thanks! It feels good to get involved and it was actually pretty fun.

  7. #7
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,341
    Good job on the advocating!

    Just to follow up with what Harry said,

    These two are no the same:

    "Motor Vehicle"
    "Motorized Vehicle"

    Also consider how the rules play between use on streets and paved paths verses on dirt Multi-use trails.

    Best wishes with your advocating!
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  8. #8
    bipedal
    Reputation: levity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    685


    Kudos to notb for taking the time, making the effort, and choosing to try to effect change the right way.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    597
    I just recently moved to the Bay Area. Thanks for doing this. I'll definitely make it out too. I agree with the rangers point-of-view. This whole policing is a waste of everyone's time.
    ---------------------
    Evil Following

    weareelements.com

  10. #10
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Harryman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,856
    Yeah, I've read AB 1096 plenty of times.

    Here's the definition of a Motor Vehicle in CA, it won't take anyone with deep pockets to figure it out.

    https://www.arb.ca.gov/bluebook/bb07/veh/veh-415.htm

    All I'm pointing out is that signage can be confusing, on some trails, it could say "No Motor Vehicles" and you're all good. On others, it could be "No motorized vehicles" and you could be fine, or not. No way of knowing without asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    The word "Shall" means "expressing a strong assertion or intention" so as a legal term it means that if land managers want to ban E-Bikes, they need to post signs since they now have the same rights as bicycles
    As I read your definition, all they need is the intent....

    My local governments have continued to not allow ebikes on singletrack, and have rewritten their code to do so while now allowing them on bike paths, yet don't have sigange up yet. The code is still valid. It can be more complicated to change code than you might think, it took over a year here. It all depends on who you're dealing with, who paid for the land, easements, all that sort of thing.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    Well, I hadn't done that and was riding in the Mid Peninsula open space last weekend with a friend and got stopped by a ranger who said they are not allowed. There are signs that say "No Motorized Vehicles" all over the place, but according to AB 1096 which became law in 2015, Electric Bicycles are not motor vehicles:
    https://www.openspace.org/about-us/board-meetings

    Thanks for posting about your contact with the rangers and your followup with the district meeting.

    I am a new owner of an eMTB. Were the rangers San Mateo County Park rangers? I was hired as a ranger before I became a cop. I actually rode a bike as a cop many years ago before I got promoted and reassigned.

    Which Open Space area were you at, San Bruno off Skyline Dr. (goes along Crystal Springs) or somewhere else? I've been looking for places with easy riding until I get used to riding an e-bike.

    If I were to be stopped I would really consider accepting the option you took. I'm an older guy, cop, and school board member so I've done my share of speaking before committees plus all my court appearances.

    IMHO you were a good rep for the eMTB community. Good job. Thank you.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Yeah, I've read AB 1096 plenty of times.

    Here's the definition of a Motor Vehicle in CA, it won't take anyone with deep pockets to figure it out.

    https://www.arb.ca.gov/bluebook/bb07/veh/veh-415.htm

    All I'm pointing out is that signage can be confusing, on some trails, it could say "No Motor Vehicles" and you're all good. On others, it could be "No motorized vehicles" and you could be fine, or not. No way of knowing without asking.



    As I read your definition, all they need is the intent....

    My local governments have continued to not allow ebikes on singletrack, and have rewritten their code to do so while now allowing them on bike paths, yet don't have sigange up yet. The code is still valid. It can be more complicated to change code than you might think, it took over a year here. It all depends on who you're dealing with, who paid for the land, easements, all that sort of thing.
    This is great information. Thanks and I get the difference between Motor Vehicles and Motorized Vehicles now. Just as you said, I've seen "No Motorized Vehicle" signs all over the places where they are definitely allowed, like Wilder Ranch in Santa Cruz, and Santa Clara county parks which actually physically border Mid Pen. It's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

    Other than my somewhat informed but legally wrong reasoning, I think there are a variety of reasons why someone may think that "No Motorized Vehicle" signs don't apply to E-Bikes. Also, how many people read the regulations online before riding?

    The important point is that most land managers would rather not pay for and put up more signs, but clearly there is a need for them if they really want to keep E-Bikes out. Hopefully the desire to NOT put up signs helps to convince them to just change the regulation. I think this can be used as one argument for change, but we have to be careful with that one because it could convince them to just put up the signs. I only used it because the ranger specifically brought that up in our conversation.

    My other points were the usual ones about helping older people or those with mild physical issues continue to ride, and lack of any compelling reason for banning them given that they are ridden almost exactly like a non-assisted bike and don't cause additional trail damage.

    Hopefully people will find their own reasons and petition their local land managers to change the regs.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by eltee View Post
    Thanks for posting about your contact with the rangers and your followup with the district meeting.

    Were the rangers San Mateo County Park rangers?

    Which Open Space area were you at, San Bruno off Skyline Dr. (goes along Crystal Springs) or somewhere else? I've been looking for places with easy riding until I get used to riding an e-bike.

    If I were to be stopped I would really consider accepting the option you took. I'm an older guy, cop, and school board member so I've done my share of speaking before committees plus all my court appearances.

    IMHO you were a good rep for the eMTB community. Good job. Thank you.
    Thanks! I didn't actually pay any attention to what kind of rangers they were, but the head ranger was at the board meeting so I assumed Mid Peninsula actually has their own.

    The ranger I encountered on the trail was waiting at the intersection of Long Ridge Road and Ward Road in Long Ridge open space, much further south than where you are talking about, but on Skyline. I had just exited legal riding in Upper Stevens Creek as I found out later. Unfortunately it would be very difficult to ride Upper Stevens Creek without crossing into Midpeninsula land at some point. Any sort of decent loop in that area will require that.

    It's an interesting situation there, because the rangers seem to be suggesting that the more E-bikes that are caught, the more likely it is that the regulation will be changed. Unfortunately I can't risk going back again now that I have a written warning.

    Sounds like Wilder Ranch might be a good place for you to start. It is much easier riding for the most part, except for Zane Gray Cutoff, which is deeply rutted. Check it out.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    I wanted to let people on here know about my recent experience getting into E-Bike advocacy for the first time. I think it's important for people to get involved if they want to get more trails opened to legal E-Bike usage.
    ...
    Well, I hadn't done that and was riding in the Mid Peninsula open space last weekend with a friend and got stopped by a ranger who said they are not allowed.
    ...
    So if any of you Bay Area E-Bike riders want to help, please go to a Mid Peninsula Open Space District meeting and sign up to advocate for E-Bike usage.
    ...
    https://www.openspace.org/about-us/board-meetings

    Good for you! :-)

    And its really not much of a stretch, as disability-placard holders can ride our ebikes in Midpen already. :-)
    (https://www.openspace.org/what-to-do/activities/biking)
    Quote: "Electric bikes: Electric powered bicycles are NOT allowed, except for use by individuals with a mobility disability, and only on trails where bicycles are authorized."


    Good luck with Midpen. Does the board accept written advocacy letters that are read in their meetings? I don't live close enough to attend.

    Some of us are advocating to CalFire for Soquel Demo Forest eAccess. My temp placards got me special-permission letters & access, but my current placard will probably be my last.


    Catfish ...

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by motocatfish View Post
    Good for you! :-)

    And its really not much of a stretch, as disability-placard holders can ride our ebikes in Midpen already. :-)
    (https://www.openspace.org/what-to-do/activities/biking)
    Quote: "Electric bikes: Electric powered bicycles are NOT allowed, except for use by individuals with a mobility disability, and only on trails where bicycles are authorized."


    Good luck with Midpen. Does the board accept written advocacy letters that are read in their meetings? I don't live close enough to attend.

    Some of us are advocating to CalFire for Soquel Demo Forest eAccess. My temp placards got me special-permission letters & access, but my current placard will probably be my last.


    Catfish ...
    Thanks to you and others who would like to help further the cause. I need to contact Mid-Pen to see what the next step is. I assume a board member has to get the process going.

    If you look at the map, Mid-pen is so important if you want to do any long rides on the peninsula. The places that are allowed like Santa Clara county parks don't really have any large continuous loops that don't involve a lot of pavement. Wilder is great, but getting to and from Santa Cruz on a weekend on 17 is a nightmare.

    For Mid-Pen board meetings, I think you can attend using video chat by calling the District Clerk at (650) 691-1200 first and arranging it. They had just started that at the August 22 meeting, but it's not clear to me if that's only for people with disabilities.

    Yeah, I wish I could ride in Soquel. I've heard great things about it but never went.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    14,173
    Nice work OP. Advocacy work is tedious and inconvenient, but it's the only way forward for positive change.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,580
    op, nice post. how much resources are wasted enforcing something that the enforcers don’t want to enforce?




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    It was going well too!
    Well some of this is my fault for throwing stuff out there to see what people think. I'm getting a lot of perspective at least, but I'm going to be careful in my discussions with land managers to use words that don't need clarification of definition. I don't think it's needed anyway because the fact that E-Bikes have been peacefully coexisting with other trail users in nearby riding areas is the best argument.

    I should have an update on some actual progress soon as I've started talking to one of the administrators.

    In the mean time, enjoy this picture of me getting written up by a ranger
    E-Bike advocacy in the Bay Area, California-img_0971.jpg

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,190
    if that is a kickstand, you deserve two tickets. I get the reflectors because that takes work to take off., but you had to add that KS
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    if that is a kickstand, you deserve two tickets. I get the reflectors because that takes work to take off., but you had to add that KS
    Ha ha, it is. Motostrano told me they put those on all their bikes. It rattles around but it's kind of convenient. One of the advantages of an e-bike is that you don't have to watch weight as much, but I'll probably end up taking it off because of the noise if nothing else.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by brownpownow View Post
    See Federal Register / Vol. 80 4503

    "New technologies that
    merge bicycles and motors, such as ebikes,
    are considered motor vehicles
    under § 212.1 of the TMR"

    California cannot pass a law that would permit ebike usage on USFS lands.
    Yeah, I did quite a bit of research on this before suggesting it. The TMR is a Regulation, not a Law:

    "Federal laws are bills that have passed both houses of Congress, been signed by the president, passed over the president's veto, or allowed to become law without the president's signature. ... Regulations are rules made by executive departments and agencies, and are arranged by subject in the Code of Federal Regulations."

    Congress can definitely pass LAWS that overrule state laws and that is the end of that as pointed out earlier by the supremacy clause. But when there isn't a federal law, state laws can overrule federal REGULATIONS that were written by any of the thousands of administrators of the various executive branches without congressional act.

    I believe the only place in California where Federal regulations override state laws via supremacy would be in places where jurisdiction was definitely ceded to the federal government like Yosemite and Sequoia national parks.

  22. #22
    Formerly of Kent
    Reputation: Le Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    11,745

    E-Bike advocacy in the Bay Area, California

    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    Yeah, I did quite a bit of research on this before suggesting it. The TMR is a Regulation, not a Law:

    "Federal laws are bills that have passed both houses of Congress, been signed by the president, passed over the president's veto, or allowed to become law without the president's signature. ... Regulations are rules made by executive departments and agencies, and are arranged by subject in the Code of Federal Regulations."

    Congress can definitely pass LAWS that overrule state laws and that is the end of that as pointed out earlier by the supremacy clause. But when there isn't a federal law, state laws can overrule federal REGULATIONS that were written by any of the thousands of administrators of the various executive branches without congressional act.

    I believe the only place in California where Federal regulations override state laws via supremacy would be in places where jurisdiction was definitely ceded to the federal government like Yosemite and Sequoia national parks.
    And every other type of federal land, such as National Forests...

    You know, lands managed by the Forest Service. Who determine usage policy.

    No, CA isn’t going to be able to overturn their refs. I doubt they have any interest in doing so, either.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Death from Below.

  23. #23
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    And every other type of federal land, such as National Forests...

    You know, lands managed by the Forest Service. Who determine usage policy.

    No, CA isn’t going to be able to overturn their refs. I doubt they have any interest in doing so, either.
    Exactly.

    “notb”’s combination of naïveté(as demonstrated by his lack of experience with MROSD’s anti-bike-of-any-kind bias) and ignorance (claiming above that signage is required by the AB 1906 - it’s not, see 21207.5) is spectacular.

    The reflectors and kickstand are just icing on the fail cake.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Glad the photo was entertaining. I didn't realize reflectors were controversial, but I do take perverse joy in being a dork with a kickstand. Thanks to brownpownow I'm going to leave it on. Winning!

    I spoke with a Mid Peninsula staff member today and here's what they told me:
    - They know they have a signage issue, especially since the open space abuts land where they are allowed.
    - They have a couple of board members that mountain bike and the admin I spoke with rides an E-Bike, so they are familiar with E-bikes and what they are and are not. One of the local shops got some of the employees and board members out on them a while back.
    - The regulation banning E-Bikes was written in 2014 and was more preemptive than anything else. They were seeing all kinds of electric devices like Segways and hover boards at the time, and didn't know what kind of impact E-Bikes would have so they wrote a regulation.
    - There are a variety of concerns like uphill speed when passing hikers (safety), and the fact that they want to keep it a "pure" non-motorized experience, but these are not easily quantifiable so may not factor into any future decisions.
    - The regulations are typically updated every 6-8 years. The last update was in 2014, so it could be a while before anything gets changed, but the admin was going to try to get an E-Bike committee going for the 2019/20 fiscal year. This could lead to regulation changes sooner (hopefully).

    I asked what the process was and he said the board is always interested in public input, so the more people that show up and show support the more likely it is that change will happen.

    He is putting together an E-Bike mailing list and once that is ready I'll give out the email address you can use to get added. This will be used to notify people of any meetings where E-Bike issues will be discussed so people who are interested can show up to show support or speak against.

  25. #25
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    Glad the photo was entertaining. I didn't realize reflectors were controversial,



    It is customary to remove them so they don't litter the trails. They are also helpful to identify newbnesss.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  26. #26
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    I do take perverse joy in being a dork with a kickstand.
    “dork” is too kind of a description but you do you. Mountain bikers don’t use kickstands because when riding rowdy trails, heck even when riding tame trails, they don’t want that superfluous thing to deploy.


    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    he said the board is always interested in public input, so the more people that show up and show support the more likely it is that change will happen.
    And you believed that?

    Hilarious! (see previous observation about naïveté)

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,190
    Ha, just show up and you will get trails, good lord.

    Did he mention that all the anti-mtbers show up every meeting and get what they want, almost every time.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  28. #28
    bipedal
    Reputation: levity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    685
    You guys crack me up sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebeau View Post
    You mean on trails like this?

    Attachment 1214562
    Sure, climbing a fire road fully loaded is good use of an ebike.

    So is this -

    E-Bike advocacy in the Bay Area, California-kenevo.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iefJf609Tkg

    now let's get back on track and return to the OP's issue of how best to deal with advocacy

  29. #29
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by levity View Post

    now let's get back on track and return to the OP's issue of how best to deal with advocacy



    Well? Let's hear it.
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  30. #30
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7,341
    Quote Originally Posted by levity View Post
    now let's get back on track and return to the OP's issue of how best to deal with advocacy
    Yes, please do. I took all the same old re-hashed arguments and moved them into a place us moderators lovingly call the Black Hole. Other mods can see what transpired and review it, but it is forever lost to the public.

    If you want to talk about the definition of a motorized Vehicle, do it in another thread, this one is specifically for advocacy in a specific place.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Guidelines

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    68
    Yeah I got one of those warning tickets at Longridge, I honestly didn't know e-bikes weren't allowed. I asked WHY? why are there not allowed, he didn't have an answer but told me that they are probably going to allow them.

    I asked what will happen if I ride here again? You'll get another warning. Ok I'll be back, have been back a number of times, got one more warning, different ranger this time. Also asked him why, since ebikes have no more impact on the trails than regular bikes, he agreed. Didn't know the reason. This uphill passing speed argument in nonsense.

    I'll just keep going back, and they can write me as many warnings as they want to. I'll look for future meetings I can attend.

  32. #32
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by simbot View Post
    Yeah I got one of those warning tickets at Longridge, I honestly didn't know e-bikes weren't allowed. I asked WHY? why are there not allowed, he didn't have an answer but told me that they are probably going to allow them.

    I asked what will happen if I ride here again? You'll get another warning. Ok I'll be back, have been back a number of times, got one more warning, different ranger this time. Also asked him why, since ebikes have no more impact on the trails than regular bikes, he agreed. Didn't know the reason. This uphill passing speed argument in nonsense.

    I'll just keep going back, and they can write me as many warnings as they want to. I'll look for future meetings I can attend.


    And when you get cited for poaching?
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    68
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    And when you get cited for poaching?
    It isn't poaching, they only give "warnings"

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by simbot View Post
    Yeah I got one of those warning tickets at Longridge, I honestly didn't know e-bikes weren't allowed. I asked WHY? why are there not allowed, he didn't have an answer but told me that they are probably going to allow them.

    I asked what will happen if I ride here again? You'll get another warning. Ok I'll be back, have been back a number of times, got one more warning, different ranger this time. Also asked him why, since ebikes have no more impact on the trails than regular bikes, he agreed. Didn't know the reason. This uphill passing speed argument in nonsense.

    I'll just keep going back, and they can write me as many warnings as they want to. I'll look for future meetings I can attend.
    That's interesting and is similar to my experience. I think as long as you are polite they aren't going to issue tickets. I haven't gone back and won't until this is resolved, but I do miss riding there since the trails are so fun.

    Whether E-Bikes are allowed or not, the new technology will make spotting E-bikes much more difficult so it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long run. Lapierre E-Zesty expected in Jan 2019:
    E-Bike advocacy in the Bay Area, California-lapierre-e-zesty-am-news_103.jpg

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sfgiantsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    That's interesting and is similar to my experience. I think as long as you are polite they aren't going to issue tickets. I haven't gone back and won't until this is resolved, but I do miss riding there since the trails are so fun.

    Whether E-Bikes are allowed or not, the new technology will make spotting E-bikes much more difficult so it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long run. Lapierre E-Zesty expected in Jan 2019:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Lapierre-E-Zesty-AM-News_103.jpg 
Views:	60 
Size:	120.5 KB 
ID:	1215472
    What’s going to happen is, they will try to ban ebikes but if that doesn’t work, just ban bikes. This is what us “haters” have been talking about.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

  36. #36
    Location: 10 ft from Hell Moderator
    Reputation: life behind bars's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by simbot View Post
    It isn't poaching, they only give "warnings"



    Since when is poaching not poaching? Have we entered some alternative reality where the laws no longer apply?
    I ncredibly
    M yopic
    B ackstabbing
    A ssholes

  37. #37
    saddlemeat
    Reputation: bsieb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    3,857
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Since when is poaching not poaching? Have we entered some alternative reality where the laws no longer apply?
    I guess if you can rationalize bikes with motors as not being motorized, it's not a big mental leap.
    I ride with the best dogs.




  38. #38
    One ring to mash them all
    Reputation: the one ring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,714
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Have we entered some alternative reality where the laws no longer apply?
    What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening.
    Go Fact Yourself.

    Real eyes realize real lies.

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    I got a reply from MidPeninsula today. They had a discussion and decided to use the general bike issues mailing list for E-Bike issues as well. Anyone who wants to be added to the list to be notified of upcoming meetings that discuss bike issues can email them at "[email protected]" and ask to be added.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    22
    Congress says not "motor vehicle" forest service says "motor vehicle" I imagine Congress trumps forest service?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    92
    Quote Originally Posted by moabmark View Post
    Congress says not "motor vehicle" forest service says "motor vehicle" I imagine Congress trumps forest service?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
    Before you get flamed, I'll just chime in that as I've learned over the last 2 months, it's really up to the land manager to make their own rules up regarding trails that are not public roads. If they want to ban eMTBs they can, and don't have to put up signs so it is up to us to figure it out. The NFS has chosen to ban them on singletrack through regulation (not law, but it ends up being almost the same). This could change, but for now that's the way it is.

    I'm in the process of creating a list of legal places I can ride that are nearby. It involves a lot of phone calls and emails. There are lots of online resources like this:eMountain Biking Map • PeopleForBikes, but they tend to be incomplete. Some of the information I've found online that says eBikes are banned in a certain place is incorrect. Regulation documentation online for a specific place often don't even mention eBikes even though the unwritten policy is that they are not allowed. All this makes it difficult to know for sure, but calling and speaking with them is the best way to find out.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-18-2013, 09:13 AM
  2. Newbie from SF Bay Area California
    By ExbF in forum Asia + Philippines
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-14-2011, 09:21 AM
  3. Marin & East Bay, Advocacy Mt. Bike Newsletter DEC 2005
    By d4er in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-30-2005, 11:25 AM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-03-2005, 11:02 AM
  5. anyone selling a p2 or something similar in bay area California?
    By dhride96 in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-17-2005, 09:20 PM

Members who have read this thread: 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.