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  1. #1
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    access for everyone

    Ebikers are saying that the increased amount of users will improve our access. What MTB trails have you worked to protect access and how? Which organizations have you donated to or encouraged manufacturers to donate to?

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    C'mon, in the other threads I heard that the e-bike industry has "trounced" other lobbyists and groups. It must be a really well funded and connected bunch of folks. Here's your chance to brag about all the access that will be improved and how. Montana has several hundred miles of singletrack that could go away at a moments notice. I expect to see the cavalry arrive soon. I await your reply.

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    IMBA and People for Bikes are both advocating for eMTB access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    IMBA and People for Bikes are both advocating for eMTB access.
    OK, I am very familiar with IMBA. They seem to be primarily pedal bike focused. How many new e-bikers have become IMBA members and increased their clout? Our local chapter has maybe 1% EMTB owners. They are also only supportive of class 1 on nonmotorized trails.
    https://www.imba.com/blog/changing-r...tb-public-land

    Who funds People For Bikes? Do they have membership?

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    Quote Originally Posted by honkinunit View Post
    IMBA and People for Bikes are both advocating for eMTB access.



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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    OK, I am very familiar with IMBA. They seem to be primarily pedal bike focused. How many new e-bikers have become IMBA members and increased their clout? Our local chapter has maybe 1% EMTB owners. They are also only supportive of class 1 on nonmotorized trails.
    https://www.imba.com/blog/changing-r...tb-public-land

    Who funds People For Bikes? Do they have membership?



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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    Ebikers are saying that the increased amount of users will improve our access. What MTB trails have you worked to protect access and how? Which organizations have you donated to or encouraged manufacturers to donate to?
    Increased access? By how? You mean more crowded trails? MTB trail access has been a long fought battle, at least here in New England. E bikes are seeming to muddy the waters, at best. MA has very few places to ride motorized vehicles on public property.

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    Increased traffic on already crowded trail systems and the conflicts that will inevitably arise isn't going to help with access. Rather, boots on the ground, advocacy, trail construction, meetings, fund raising. Those are the things that improve access and it sometimes takes decades to get new trails if ever. There is already talk of increased restrictions of access to bicycles, with more since the order granting access to motorized bikes in NP's and BLM lands. I hope none of it comes to fruition but I fear that some land managers will take the easy way out and do just that. Cliffs notes, ride where it's legal and don't be a dick about it and maybe, just maybe we can coexist with other user groups without too many losses.
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    So let me get this straight: ebikers and one industry group have spent 100% of their energy grasping the coattails of hard working mountain bikers, most of whom are hard working volunteers. The ebikers have literally never maintained bike trails, have not put a meaningful amount of money toward MTB groups or projects, have not written to land managers to maintain bicycle access, have not build support among other user groups and have not created a unified message about classes of ebikes? I mean, that's exactly what I predicted and exactly what I have seen in my area but it seems that this is the trend across the country right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    So let me get this straight: ebikers and one industry group have spent 100% of their energy grasping the coattails of hard working mountain bikers, most of whom are hard working volunteers. The ebikers have literally never maintained bike trails, have not put a meaningful amount of money toward MTB groups or projects, have not written to land managers to maintain bicycle access, have not build support among other user groups and have not created a unified message about classes of ebikes? I mean, that's exactly what I predicted and exactly what I have seen in my area but it seems that this is the trend across the country right?



    You pretend that e-bikers have no skin in the game. Many do. Don't paint the entire group with such broad strokes because the majority of mtber's don't do dick about access or trails themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    So let me get this straight: ebikers and one industry group have spent 100% of their energy grasping the coattails of hard working mountain bikers, most of whom are hard working volunteers. The ebikers have literally never maintained bike trails, have not put a meaningful amount of money toward MTB groups or projects, have not written to land managers to maintain bicycle access, have not build support among other user groups and have not created a unified message about classes of ebikes? I mean, that's exactly what I predicted and exactly what I have seen in my area but it seems that this is the trend across the country right?
    That's far from the truth. Pretty much every single EMTB riders I have met here in Colorado have been riding MTB (or even cyclocross) for decades... They have been part of groups, trail crews and participated or initiated some of the campaigns with the local LM to make trail accessible. In terms of financial resources, well, considering the number of 5000$ plus ebikes I see on the trails every day, I would say they are doing pretty good, and investing a lot of cash in advocacy for ebikes.

    I mean, EMTB went for a pretty much total ban, to ALMOST (i know words are scrutinized, so please read carefully) universal access in 2-3 years? Some folks on this forum predicted that it will never happen or take a lifetime....

  12. #12
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    Universal access? Where would this be? Not New England, you might be stretching just a bit there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    So let me get this straight: ebikers and one industry group have spent 100% of their energy grasping the coattails of hard working mountain bikers, most of whom are hard working volunteers. The ebikers have literally never maintained bike trails, have not put a meaningful amount of money toward MTB groups or projects, have not written to land managers to maintain bicycle access, have not build support among other user groups and have not created a unified message about classes of ebikes? I mean, that's exactly what I predicted and exactly what I have seen in my area but it seems that this is the trend across the country right?
    I'm not going to group all eMTB riders into my camp, but for me without legal access, it doesn't make sense for eMTB riders to work with local MTB organizations. Access has to be established first, which is what eMTB groups like PFB have been working towards.

    What would happen if I contacted my local organization TAMBA (Tahoe) for volunteer opportunities? I couldn't legally ride the trails I'd be working on, so what is the motivation exactly? Add to that the open hostility I've received riding on legal trails in the area and my motivation level is low...very low.

    Access was just established on BLM lands so you will probably now see eMTB riders joining these organizations which serve BLM lands and volunteering. It's going to take a while though. Most of us have endured a lot of abuse out on the trails and it's going to take a while for that to disappear entirely and be forgotten.

    Some people like me have dabbled in obtaining access for eMTB where bikes are currently allowed. I don't make a full time job of it, but I send in comments, fill out surveys, talk to rangers and officials, and write letters. Before I knew how these things work, I actually went to a board meeting and gave a short speech. I do follow land manager board meeting agendas for the next opportunity to contribute there.

    Access comes first, then volunteering. As a larger group of riders the mountain bike community will be able to work together instead of against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Universal access? Where would this be? Not New England, you might be stretching just a bit there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    What would happen if I contacted my local organization TAMBA (Tahoe) for volunteer opportunities? I couldn't legally ride the trails I'd be working on, so what is the motivation exactly?
    you sound like a kook who wouldn't help your friend build a jump because you can't jump it...


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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    you sound like a kook who wouldn't help your friend build a jump because you can't jump it...
    If I wasn't allowed to use the jump after building it, I think I'm the exact opposite of a kook, which means "a crazy or eccentric person.". "Selfish asshole" might be a better choice of words for the next time you quote me.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by notb View Post
    If I wasn't allowed to use the jump after building it, I think I'm the exact opposite of a kook, which means "a crazy or eccentric person.". "Selfish asshole" might be a better choice of words for the next time you quote me.
    Right now my local MTB Organization is doing exactly that, we are working with the State to perform trail maintenance as an effort of good will. The trails are currently closed to cycling, but open for hiking. There is only 1 guy who is not a ranger who does trail maintenance for the state and he has all of San Diego as his territory, not just the 500 Acre parcel our group wants legal access too. At the same time the group is working with the agency who makes the rules in an effort to get those rules changed for this parcel to allow access.

    Right now it is ONLY mountain bikers who are volunteering time to help them with trail maintenance, no one from any hiking groups, bird watching groups, etc has shown up to help, and I seriously doubt they ever will.

    We might not see fruitage from this work for many years, possibly never, but it shows character that we are trying.
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    In my area, EMTB have no skin in the game. No help, all complain. We are at a critical point with forest planning and travel management planning where we could easily lose a huge portion of our existing access. Without a really really large carrot, I am going to be working to keep my access by whatever method is necessary.

    If I spent $6000 on a bike, I wouldn't expect the company would invest in good advocacy, especially at a local level. Capitalism doesn't work that way. People with $6000 to spend on a bike ought to be in a good position to give a couple thousand to a MTB organization on the chance it could improve their future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    In my area, EMTB have no skin in the game. No help, all complain...
    as someone else stated, almost all the ebike people you are talking about are also regular mountainbikers and have been forever. lets not pretend that most of them are the people with no business out there, those people are still zipping around the town on their ebikes, not riding trails.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Right now my local MTB Organization is doing exactly that, we are working with the State to perform trail maintenance as an effort of good will. The trails are currently closed to cycling, but open for hiking. There is only 1 guy who is not a ranger who does trail maintenance for the state and he has all of San Diego as his territory, not just the 500 Acre parcel our group wants legal access too. At the same time the group is working with the agency who makes the rules in an effort to get those rules changed for this parcel to allow access.

    Right now it is ONLY mountain bikers who are volunteering time to help them with trail maintenance, no one from any hiking groups, bird watching groups, etc has shown up to help, and I seriously doubt they ever will.

    We might not see fruitage from this work for many years, possibly never, but it shows character that we are trying.
    This is a great point, and I totally agree with you and kudos for doing it. I tried to present my position as just my position, which is mostly influenced by the amount of shit I have gotten from regular unassisted mountain bike riders out on the trail. Sour grapes I know, and I'm not making excuses. I just don't feel like part of the general mountain biking community, which has and continues to try to keep me off of their lawn.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    ... I heard...
    ...EMTB have no skin in the game. No help, all complain...
    ...It must be...
    ...that could go away at a moments notice.
    ...I expect to see the cavalry arrive soon.
    ...ebikers have literally never maintained bike trails...
    ...have not ...
    ...have not...
    ...have not...
    ...have not...
    ... that's exactly what I predicted...
    ... we could easily lose a huge portion of our existing access...
    .

    What to say...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Right now my local MTB Organization is doing exactly that, we are working with the State to perform trail maintenance as an effort of good will. The trails are currently closed to cycling, but open for hiking. There is only 1 guy who is not a ranger who does trail maintenance for the state and he has all of San Diego as his territory, not just the 500 Acre parcel our group wants legal access too. At the same time the group is working with the agency who makes the rules in an effort to get those rules changed for this parcel to allow access.

    Right now it is ONLY mountain bikers who are volunteering time to help them with trail maintenance, no one from any hiking groups, bird watching groups, etc has shown up to help, and I seriously doubt they ever will.

    We might not see fruitage from this work for many years, possibly never, but it shows character that we are trying.
    My local mountain group maintains trails in a NPS NRA. The work parties I've been on consist of about half mountain bikers and half other volunteers, pretty much hikers (I don't think horses aren't allowed though I don't recall seeing that posted). Our main focus is the mountain bikes allowed trails, though we have also cleared downed trees on non-bike trails, though I don't think anyone thinks we'll ever have access to bike those trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    as someone else stated, almost all the ebike people you are talking about are also regular mountainbikers and have been forever. lets not pretend that most of them are the people with no business out there, those people are still zipping around the town on their ebikes, not riding trails.
    That may be true at this time but will it remain that way? The high cost of emtbs is a huge factor in that but if cheaper models come out, I could see that changing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    That may be true at this time but will it remain that way? The high cost of emtbs is a huge factor in that but if cheaper models come out, I could see that changing.
    A mass-market eBike is going to have even more limitations than a mass-market full-suspension bike, including that sticker warning against off-road use. Just as I donít see any Walgoose bikes on the trail, I donít expect to see many eGoose bikes either.

    Iím not sure that it matters too much; in my experience poor people are as courteous and or more so than wealthy people; consider that the proportionally most-ticketed vehicle is the Lexus ES.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    In my area, EMTB have no skin in the game. No help, all complain. We are at a critical point with forest planning and travel management planning where we could easily lose a huge portion of our existing access. Without a really really large carrot, I am going to be working to keep my access by whatever method is necessary.

    If I spent $6000 on a bike, I wouldn't expect the company would invest in good advocacy, especially at a local level. Capitalism doesn't work that way. People with $6000 to spend on a bike ought to be in a good position to give a couple thousand to a MTB organization on the chance it could improve their future.

    Your bolded sentence is all anyone needs to know about how you feel. So much hate in your posts. Federal taxes pay for those trails you speak of. Under your observation maybe people who don't contribute enough in taxes aren't improving their future? Those guys who spend $6000 on e-bikes pay a lot towards "their future".

    E-bikers are mountain bikers. I owned over 15 mountain bikes before buying my first e-bike. And I still ride my Enduro. Am I suddenly not a mountain biker because I ride an e-bike too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    C'mon, in the other threads I heard that the e-bike industry has "trounced" other lobbyists and groups. It must be a really well funded and connected bunch of folks. Here's your chance to brag about all the access that will be improved and how. Montana has several hundred miles of singletrack that could go away at a moments notice. I expect to see the cavalry arrive soon. I await your reply.

    "Threads started to purposely incite other users will be deleted"

    fc wrote that regarding e-bike threads. Your motive is disingenuous and you are trolling.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Universal access? Where would this be? Not New England, you might be stretching just a bit there.
    "ALMOST (i know words are scrutinized, so please read carefully) universal access in 2-3 years? "

    looks like you skip a word or 2 (9 actually)

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    That may be true at this time but will it remain that way? The high cost of emtbs is a huge factor in that but if cheaper models come out, I could see that changing.
    i don't see cheaper costs adding any problems. regular bikes are already pretty cheap and that's not creating any real issues with trail density. i do see issues with city density though, as i still stand by my statement that the unable are not going to start flocking to the trails just because their bike is electric...


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    It's interesting to read these threads about the "I volunteered more than you, so I should get to say who uses the trails."

    I spent 20 years in the military, defending our country and freedoms. Does that mean I get to say who gets to enjoy which freedoms, and when? Of course not.

    I also spent 7 years running one of the largest 4wd clubs in the US, volunteering many thousands of hours supporting (and raising money for) trail use and access. Does that mean I get to tell the newbee who just bought a $30K side-by-side (who would not have the same driving skills) that he can't ride on my trails because he might ruin my fun or damage the trail? Of course not.

    As we mature, we usually find that working together towards a common goal is more productive than a figurative fight-to-the-death to protect our fiefdoms...(some don't).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruthabagah View Post
    "ALMOST (i know words are scrutinized, so please read carefully) universal access in 2-3 years? "

    looks like you skip a word or 2 (9 actually)
    I doubt its the "almost" he has a problem with its the "universal"
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    You speak in these absolutes and end up sounding like an ass, tell me more about me and all my friends in Marin, we fight daily on the trails and need the police to intervene.
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    apparently you missed the parenthesis part too...


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    An insufficient amount of tax dollars go to recreation and access, its unfortunate. If any user group wants improvement or change, they are going to have to organize. Progress gets made only if there is money or volunteers, but really you need both. Karma, status, wishes, owning 15 bikes, facebook likes, etc cannot be cashed in to keep or improve trails. I don't care what kind of machine or method of travel anyone prefers. Yes, I do care what people contribute. If they don't contribute, they can't expect much. Our MTB community has come together to protect access, maintain and build trails. Right now in my area, Ebikes are a huge liability (for access, not tort law) and as shown in this thread the upside is small. This would be a great chance for y'all to create some potential. Call me a troll, whatever. When the next steps don't fall in to place for EMTB, don't look to pedal bikers to take the blame.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by adcockj View Post
    It's interesting to read these threads about the "I volunteered more than you, so I should get to say who uses the trails."
    Who is saying that?

    Those who are active in clubs that participate in trail maintenance and have built and maintained relationships with the Land Managers are going to have more influence on the land managers decisions and are going to have more insight into the process than someone who is just a keyboard warrior. It is not about any sort of "right" to make those decisions, just a result of hard work and action.

    Your analogies are flawed, your time in the military means nothing unless you join a lobbying group and then go lobby those who make the decisions on freedoms to change them, or you get yourself elected and change them.

    In the end, unless a rider is also the land manager, they have no say in who gets to ride what where. The Land Managers are the ones who make the rules and enforce them.

    Influencing the decision makers is not the same as being the decision maker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adcockj View Post
    It's interesting to read these threads about the "I volunteered more than you, so I should get to say who uses the trails."

    I spent 20 years in the military, defending our country and freedoms. Does that mean I get to say who gets to enjoy which freedoms, and when? Of course not.

    I also spent 7 years running one of the largest 4wd clubs in the US, volunteering many thousands of hours supporting (and raising money for) trail use and access. Does that mean I get to tell the newbee who just bought a $30K side-by-side (who would not have the same driving skills) that he can't ride on my trails because he might ruin my fun or damage the trail? Of course not.

    As we mature, we usually find that working together towards a common goal is more productive than a figurative fight-to-the-death to protect our fiefdoms...(some don't).

    Great post and thanks for serving our country.

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    trail access for bikes and e-bike while dependent on lobbying really comes down to user conflict and interactions. I ride in Phoenix Az and here South Mtn park allows e-bikes. It is a new thing just this year, but in that time I have not heard about any significant issues. I have been on rides with a rider on an e-bike. How the ride goes depends largely on how this rider wants to ride. If he wants to act like and asshat he can and the e-bike makes that easier since there are more places he can piss people off. Not just on DH, but also on climbs. However if he chooses to go with the flow of the group you don't even notice. Except when is soft pedaling up 6% grade just as fast as everyone else is going 100% and reminds us. But hey that is just playful banter.

    Last Sunday I did happen to see what looked like e-motocross bike on the trails at South Mtn. This is poaching and while he was behaving it does start to create issues. In the end if e-bike increase user conflicts with hikers, runner, equestrians and even other riders it will put trail access at risk. Possibly for just e-bikes, but I fear for all bikes. It is very hard for a non bike person to determine if that a-hole on bike was on regular bike or e-bike. As such both get lumped into the same group.

    So if you want ride your e-bike places and not screw up access then ride in reasonable way you would on a regular bike. Ride and act like an asshat and you will screw it up for everyone. Same applies to non e-bikes, but given the extra climbing potential of e-bikes it create one more situation to be an asshat. Play nice and we will ALL get along just fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Who is saying that?

    Those who are active in clubs that participate in trail maintenance and have built and maintained relationships with the Land Managers are going to have more influence on the land managers decisions and are going to have more insight into the process than someone who is just a keyboard warrior. It is not about any sort of "right" to make those decisions, just a result of hard work and action.

    Your analogies are flawed, your time in the military means nothing unless you join a lobbying group and then go lobby those who make the decisions on freedoms to change them, or you get yourself elected and change them.

    In the end, unless a rider is also the land manager, they have no say in who gets to ride what where. The Land Managers are the ones who make the rules and enforce them.

    Influencing the decision makers is not the same as being the decision maker.
    You're grasping so ****ing hard. I had to quote this for future reference.

    Good land managers recognize they don't work for just lobby groups, they work for the good of all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aoliver View Post
    An insufficient amount of tax dollars go to recreation and access, its unfortunate. If any user group wants improvement or change, they are going to have to organize. Progress gets made only if there is money or volunteers, but really you need both. Karma, status, wishes, owning 15 bikes, facebook likes, etc cannot be cashed in to keep or improve trails. I don't care what kind of machine or method of travel anyone prefers. Yes, I do care what people contribute. If they don't contribute, they can't expect much. Our MTB community has come together to protect access, maintain and build trails. Right now in my area, Ebikes are a huge liability (for access, not tort law) and as shown in this thread the upside is small. This would be a great chance for y'all to create some potential. Call me a troll, whatever. When the next steps don't fall in to place for EMTB, don't look to pedal bikers to take the blame.
    E-bikes are not a huge liability at all. Not even close. The next steps will fall into place just fine. We are not adding e-bikers, we are still the same populace. If a guy replaces his Mach 5.5 with a Shuttle he's still the same biker. Your worries are unfounded. In the meantime please go out and support one of the e-bike-friendly foundations(you can support with a donation or your time) to aid the evolving transition towards e-bikes becoming the norm.

    https://www.imba.com/

    https://peopleforbikes.org/

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Your analogies are flawed, your time in the military means nothing unless you join a lobbying group and then go lobby those who make the decisions on freedoms to change them, or you get yourself elected and change them.

    Funny...somehow I don't think my 20 years in the military means nothing since I did not join a lobbying group group later.

    I probably missed something. Maybe I was at sea for your first several thousand posts...sorry 'bout that.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by str8line View Post
    You're grasping so ****ing hard. I had to quote this for future reference.

    Good land managers recognize they don't work for just lobby groups, they work for the good of all.
    Quote Originally Posted by adcockj View Post
    Funny...somehow I don't think my 20 years in the military means nothing since I did not join a lobbying group group later.

    I probably missed something. Maybe I was at sea for your first several thousand posts...sorry 'bout that.
    You both mis-read what I wrote. Go back and read it again.

    Yes, just serving in the military gives you no right to become the decision maker, to influence the decision makers you have to lobby them or become them. Your claim was that some people on this site think that because they work on trails they get to make the decisions regarding access and that is just not true. They get no rights to do anything just because they volunteer time, it is the lobbying they do via relationship building that gives them the ears of the decision makers..... Seriously, go back and read it, your replies to me have nothing to do with what I wrote.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    trail access for bikes and e-bike while dependent on lobbying really comes down to user conflict and interactions. I ride in Phoenix Az and here South Mtn park allows e-bikes. It is a new thing just this year, but in that time I have not heard about any significant issues. I have been on rides with a rider on an e-bike. How the ride goes depends largely on how this rider wants to ride. If he wants to act like and asshat he can and the e-bike makes that easier since there are more places he can piss people off. Not just on DH, but also on climbs. However if he chooses to go with the flow of the group you don't even notice. Except when is soft pedaling up 6% grade just as fast as everyone else is going 100% and reminds us. But hey that is just playful banter.

    Last Sunday I did happen to see what looked like e-motocross bike on the trails at South Mtn. This is poaching and while he was behaving it does start to create issues. In the end if e-bike increase user conflicts with hikers, runner, equestrians and even other riders it will put trail access at risk. Possibly for just e-bikes, but I fear for all bikes. It is very hard for a non bike person to determine if that a-hole on bike was on regular bike or e-bike. As such both get lumped into the same group.

    So if you want ride your e-bike places and not screw up access then ride in reasonable way you would on a regular bike. Ride and act like an asshat and you will screw it up for everyone. Same applies to non e-bikes, but given the extra climbing potential of e-bikes it create one more situation to be an asshat. Play nice and we will ALL get along just fine.
    Ugghh. I might have seen your group; big young guy on a Levo rides up to me on a Levo, calls me a cheater, then laughs when he points out heís on an eBike too. Then he rides up ahead for a while, stops and looks back while he waits for the rest of his group on mountain bikes. If itís that guy, make him turn down the power settings with the Blevo app before you agree to ride with him.

    The electric motorcycle is concerning; too many of those and itís game over for me; back to hiking.
    "Thank you, God, for letting me have another day"
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    Ugghh. I might have seen your group; big young guy on a Levo rides up to me on a Levo, calls me a cheater, then laughs when he points out heís on an eBike too. Then he rides up ahead for a while, stops and looks back while he waits for the rest of his group on mountain bikes. If itís that guy, make him turn down the power settings with the Blevo app before you agree to ride with him.

    The electric motorcycle is concerning; too many of those and itís game over for me; back to hiking.
    I don't ride with anyone on a Levo, Just one older guy on a Pivot Shuttle. On the Sunday I was talking about it was just me and one other on an Enduro. No e-bikes that day except for the one mentioned.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", 19' Vassago Optimus Ti SS 29", '19 Ibis Ripmo, XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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