Waco Riding in Cameron Park - Applies to all mtb riders really- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Waco Riding in Cameron Park - Applies to all mtb riders really

    I am vice president of the Waco Bicycle Club and hear all kinds of stuff. Some of my friends are runners, so I hear their views too. Recently, mountain bikers in Cameron Park have been hauling butt down trails and essentially forcing runners and hikers off the trail. This runs counter to IMBA rules and common sense. The runners/hikers have felt in danger as a mtb rider bombs down a trail at speed and its either, jump out of the way, or be severely injured. This stuff is going on at 10 a.m. on Saturday and other times when trails are heavily used.

    Come on riders! Be sensible. Police yourselves. If you want to ride fast go out at night with lights. 2 a.m. is a good time to almost be certain you will not meet any runners. Go on trails far from a town. Send someone up ahead to make sure the trail is clear. McClennan County, where Waco is, has about 250,000 people. Cameron Park is the main trail area. Its just plain dumb for riders to rage down trails on a Saturday and expect that no one else will be out there.

    Educate your fellow riders and be responsible or we will lose the privilege to ride.

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    while it may not have been your intention, your post reads that there is no shared responsibility and that only one party should be inconvenienced in this scenario.

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    Camerion Park riding

    Quote Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
    while it may not have been your intention, your post reads that there is no shared responsibility and that only one party should be inconvenienced in this scenario.
    Cameron Park trails are very tight and many have poor sight-lines. Hikers do not endanger bicyclists the way speeding bicyclists can endanger hikers/runners. There is a lot of kinetic energy in a moving bicycle and rider - hitting someone can injure or even kill them. The first law of mountain biking is to cause no harm.

    Every rider should learn and apply IMBA trail rules to help us all retain the opportunity to ride on public lands.

    https://www.imba.com/about/rules-trail

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    Since you deleted your Facebook post, I guess we'll discuss this again. The Cameron Park rules CLEARLY say that walkers/hikers/runners yield to bikes.

    You also lost a paying member and a lot of supporting people of Waco bicycle Club. I ride with the Sunday group and have told people about the ride too. Not any more.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    I am vice president of the Waco Bicycle Club and ~buncha stupid words snipped~

    Educate your fellow riders and be responsible or we will lose the privilege to ride.
    you are 100% wrong. allow me to educate YOU.

    there are many trails systems in which runners/hikers yield to riders. cameron park is one of them.

    the OFFICIAL TRAIL RULES of the park clearly state:

    "Hikers and runners always yield the trail to bikers and horseback riders."
    *source: Cameron Park, Trail Map - Parks & Recreation - City of Waco, Texas

    for another, we cyclists have built and maintain the trails LONG before you ever came to waco. the Striders Running Club has NEVER shown up for trail work days. they do nothing to maintain the trails. they run on them when they are muddy causing a great deal of damage. despite the facts they destroy the trails by running on them when muddy, they don't build/maintain them, and the park rules state they yield to riders they feel they have carte blanche on the trails and everyone should yield to them.

    further, they clog the trails on organized club runs and refuse to yield to riders. they intentionally create situations where they endanger themselves and riders, including running UP trails like vortex and colorado which are clearly marked "ONE WAY" and "DO NOT ENTER".

    instead of publicly scolding members of your own club you should be educating your whiny running friends of THEIR DUTY to yield to riders.

    your post was an embarrassment to yourself, the club, and riders in general. you owe us a public apology and you would be wise to know what you're talking about before throwing around empty threats and publicly berating people.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    Cameron Park trails are very tight and many have poor sight-lines. Hikers do not endanger bicyclists the way speeding bicyclists can endanger hikers/runners. There is a lot of kinetic energy in a moving bicycle and rider - hitting someone can injure or even kill them. The first law of mountain biking is to cause no harm.

    Every rider should learn and apply IMBA trail rules to help us all retain the opportunity to ride on public lands.

    https://www.imba.com/about/rules-trail
    the first law of common sense is to know what you're talking about.

    every rider and runner in the park, and especially the vice president of the waco bicycle club, should learn and apply the cameron park trail rules. specifically: "Hikers and runners always yield the trail to bikers and horseback riders."


    Cameron Park, Trail Map - Parks & Recreation - City of Waco, Texas
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    The derogatory insinuations made by the Vice President of the Waco Bike Club are very disappointing. As a mountain biker I no longer feel that the Waco Bike Club can effectively promote a unified front for the Waco bicycling community. Because of this I will no longer be a supporting member of the Waco Bike Club.

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    "... including running UP trails like vortex and colorado which are clearly marked "ONE WAY" and "DO NOT ENTER"."

    Are the "Do Not Enter" signs new? I didn't notice any signs the last time I rode down either Colorado or Vortex but it's probably been a few weeks...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitewerks View Post
    "... including running UP trails like vortex and colorado which are clearly marked "ONE WAY" and "DO NOT ENTER"."

    Are the "Do Not Enter" signs new? I didn't notice any signs the last time I rode down either Colorado or Vortex but it's probably been a few weeks...
    you didn't see them because you were going DOWN those trails rather than UP them.

    there's little merit in posting "wrong way" and "do not enter" signs where they can be read by traffic traveling in the correct direction.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    At the end of Vortex there is a anti-horseback sign high up on a tree & at the end of Colorado, there is a sign pointing left (the only way you can go).
    Last edited by bitewerks; 09-18-2015 at 11:28 AM.

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    I did not personally delete my Facebook post. That is a club account. Some other club person deleted it.

    Dave Morrow

    BTW, I use my real name, not something that hides my real name like HotTubfan.

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    With all due respect, IMBA, with a 30+ year history and over 40,000 members world wide has figured out good trail rules.

    I will encourage the City of Waco to incorporate these rules in their signage and regulations:

    https://www.imba.com/about/rules-trail

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    Ok I understand that you want to use ad hominen arguments. I am not embarrassed because I raised a concern. I think that honest discussion is good. Minds are like parachutes. They only work when open.

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    drmoreau,
    posting your real name does not give you credibility. however, what credibility you have is lost by not responding to everyone's poignant argument that cameron park rules specifically state that MTBers have the right of way

    also, the only thing in this thread that comes close to an ad hom is you calling htfan HotTubFan

    so do yourself a favor and address everyone else's correct deduction that hikers yield to bikers and why your interests lie with changing the rules to have bikers do the yielding. if these trails were built and maintained by bikers, what do you have to gain by taking their trail work away from them...to enforce IMBA rules? IMBA rules, altho generally sensible, need not be applied everywhere, especially in mountain biker built and maintained trails

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    As an outsider looking in, a member of another riding group and director...I see 2 major flaws.

    Trail signs say opposite of what you're saying...
    You recommend a 2 a.m. ride, which is against municipal code per Waco P&D website stating all city parks close at midnight, unless it's posted and Cameron Park is different. Seems the V.P. of an organization needs to understand and fully comply with rules and regulations put in place, or vote to get them changed before coming here and blasting others. I'm going to guess the WBC runs slightly less easy than a well oiled machine, am I right?
    '14 SC Tallboy
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    drmoreau doesn't look like Dave Morrow. Jus sayin.
    Make sure and ride your road bike at 2am. to avoid traffic too. BTW, all of this could've been avoided if you weren't such a douche about the whole thing. How about, let's work together. What can we do to make CP a safer place for both parties? Instead, you place the blame solely on bikers and refuse to admit that you had some ridiculous ideas as how to fix the situation. The only time I've ever had a issue with a walker/runner is when they have their ear buds in and going full blast. I ride slow on the rivertrail out of respect for them. Do I have to? Nope. Do I get on FB or MTR to ***** about it? Nope. Because it rarely happens and isn't a big deal. Geez.

    Be done with it.
    Last edited by HTfan; 09-18-2015 at 11:41 AM. Reason: grammar

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    Ok I understand that you want to use ad hominen arguments. I am not embarrassed because I raised a concern. I think that honest discussion is good. Minds are like parachutes. They only work when open.
    the honest discussion here is you were wrong and completely out of line on many, many fronts. you simply don't like hearing it and are too proud to admit your mistake and apologize.

    your concern was INVALID because you were ignorant of local trail protocol.

    honest discussion IS good. however, what you did was publicly scold and threaten in the name of WBC under your "authority" as vice president of the club. and you did it out of ignorance of local trail protocol.

    that is NOT good.

    had you been cognizant of local trail protocol this would all have been avoided, as you could have simply reminded your running friends of their duty to yield on the trail.

    instead you have insulted and alientated WBC members and riders at large, have created public and internal derision here and on facebook, and rather than being humble and admitting your mistake you continue to berate those who brought it to your attention.

    in fact, rather than retract your admonishment and threats you have now vowed to loby the city to change the long-standing trail protocol to match YOUR idea of how it should be instead of realigning your paradigm to match what is in place and has been working successfully for almost TWO DECADES.

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    I did not personally delete my Facebook post. That is a club account. Some other club person deleted it.
    they deleted it because you were WRONG. you were WRONG about trail protocol. you were WRONG to use the WBC page to publicly scold club members and riders at large. you were WRONG to use the WBC page to promote your personal agenda. you were WRONG to threaten people with possible banishment from the trails on behalf of WBC.

    your post was deleted because it was an embarrassment to the club and you overstepped your "authority" as VP of the club to post such a rant.

    and you're wrong to make this a public issue here on MTBR for the same reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    With all due respect, IMBA, with a 30+ year history and over 40,000 members world wide has figured out good trail rules.

    I will encourage the City of Waco to incorporate these rules in their signage and regulations:

    https://www.imba.com/about/rules-trail
    with all due respect, i have ridden all over the U.S. and the world and there are countless trails and trail systems in which riders have the right of way over pedestrians, and there are very sound and logical reasons for this. likewise, there are reasons riders have the right of way in CP, one of the main being safety for both riders and pedestrians.

    so rather than you coming in, mounting a personal campaign, and trying to change something that has been in place and working well for almost two decades (with exception of a few whiners) why don't you remind your complaining running friends of the protocol for the trails along with WHY it is this way?

    why screw the many for the benefit of the few?

    be assured myself and others will be working just as hard to make sure you're not successful in your independent and unendorsed endeavor to alter the current trail protocol. your behavior will be brought to the attention of the WBC board and members at large. you are out of line, sir.

    you don't know this because you had ZERO input in their design or construction, but many of the trails were made for high speed and/or technical bicycle traffic (which is one reason why runners are to yield to cyclists) and your efforts to alter this will alienate yet more club members and local riders, drive more people away from WBC (the club is a shell of what it was just a few years ago), and will result in an abysmal legacy for your "service" in the bike club.

    there are already 4 people i know of personally who will not be renewing their membership in the club SOLELY because of your behavior. your continued arrogance will likely cost more. if you attempt to change trail protocol many more will surely follow.

    rusty h. and others have done more for the club and the trails than you EVER will, and if it were in the best interest of the park, cyclists, and runners the trail protocol would not be what it currently is.

    you are making enemies for yourself and the club at an alarming rate with your uninformed posts, specious threats, vapid comments, rampant and unapologetic arrogance, and stated intent to singlehandely change trail protocol.

    hows that for honest discussion?
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  18. #18
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    i thought the op was being sarcastic. he's telling riders to ride at 2am, right?

    HTFan is on point. drmoreaun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitewerks View Post
    At the end of Vortex there is a anti-horseback sign high up on a tree & at the end of Colorado, there is a sign pointing left (the only way you can go).
    i put up the "one way" and "do not enter" signs myself. so if they are no longer there it is due to vandalism. thanks for the heads up, they will be replaced.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    I stand corrected on what the trail signs currently say.

    Regarding 2 a.m. riding. I was using a writer's tool called hyperbole. So many people take things literally that I recognize that I need to write really simple. So no more attempts at humor - this forum is apparently read by some very serious people, some of whom have thin skin.

    The fact that caused me to spend time writing is that three riders, on nice bikes, were hauling butt at 10 a.m. on a Saturday morning nearly plowing over some middle aged women out running. The women are also bike riders and know an expensive bike from a beater bike at a glance.

    Simply put, 10 a.m. on a Saturday morning, is probably the busiest time for Cameron Park use. 9:00 a.m. might be busier, not sure. I don't know who these riders are, but it seems clear to me that 10 a.m. on a Saturday morning in a popular urban park is not a good time to practice riding at race pace as if on a closed course. I hope that is literal enough.

    As for voting to change rules, the area of Cameron Park containing trails used by mountain bikers is owned primarily by the City of Waco and managed by the Recreation Department. There is at least one private land owner who also allows trail to be built and used by mountain bikers. To my knowledge, neither the WBC membership, nor leadership, do not vote on the rules set by the City for use of Cameron Park trails.

    I believe in education and voluntary compliance for sensible behavior standards. Rules are generally needed to either remind people of what is acceptable or enforce proper behavior through punitive action. The IMBA trail rules emphasize consideration, thoughfulness and self enforcement. Like Leave No Trace camping.

    The purpose of my post is to promote the carrot instead of the stick. Anyone can go buy a mountain bike. Know how to ride trails in a responsible manner, whether that means avoiding erosion, respecting private property, not endangering other trail users etc. is a learned behavior.

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    So you are saying that its ok for bike riders to run over other trail users if they do not get out of the way quickly enough?

    That was the point of my post.

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    I did not delete the FB post. The account is shared by all the officers. Apparently some respondents were a bit over-the-top and another person in the club deleted it.

    Its easy to make hasty judgments, such as 'you deleted your Facebook post.' Herein lies the rub. You could have asked me if I deleted it instead of assuming that I did.

    A lot of problems ensue from making assumptions without asking for information.

    So, to the point: Do you think its correct behavior for mountain bikers to run over hikers/runners? When this happens and someone gets injured what do you ASSUME will happen?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    this forum is apparently read by some very serious people, some of whom have thin skin.
    the guy that cries about receiving ad homs now dishes them out? classy.

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau
    The fact that caused me to spend time writing is that three riders, on nice bikes, were hauling butt at 10 a.m. on a Saturday morning nearly plowing over some middle aged women out running. The women are also bike riders and know an expensive bike from a beater bike at a glance.

    Simply put, 10 a.m. on a Saturday morning, is probably the busiest time for Cameron Park use. 9:00 a.m. might be busier, not sure. I don't know who these riders are, but it seems clear to me that 10 a.m. on a Saturday morning in a popular urban park is not a good time to practice riding at race pace as if on a closed course. I hope that is literal enough.
    simply put, that's total revisionist history. i hope that is literal enough.

    your initial posts both here and on FB were centered around bikers NOT yielding to runners, publicly scolding/shaming them for it, and threatening banishment from the park if riders didn't start abiding by the rules.

    and if these ladies are also riders why are they (like you) completely ignorant of local trail protocol? responsible riding means knowing the rules of the trail one is on. they (like you) clearly don't. which by extension makes them irresponsible riders and a danger to themselves and others on the trails both on and off their bikes.

    hmmmm.... seems your vitriol and ire would be more appropriately directed at these wantonly careless riders.

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau
    As for voting to change rules, the area of Cameron Park containing trails used by mountain bikers is owned primarily by the City of Waco and managed by the Recreation Department. There is at least one private land owner who also allows trail to be built and used by mountain bikers. To my knowledge, neither the WBC membership, nor leadership, do not vote on the rules set by the City for use of Cameron Park trails.
    total red herrings.

    you stated you were going to do your best to get the trail protocol changed. and i promise you are in for an epic battle if you follow through with your stated intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau
    I believe in education and voluntary compliance for sensible behavior standards. Rules are generally needed to either remind people of what is acceptable or enforce proper behavior through punitive action. The IMBA trail rules emphasize consideration, thoughfulness and self enforcement. Like Leave No Trace camping.
    education starts with KNOWING THE TRAIL PROTOCOL. voluntary compliance starts with KNOWING THE TRAIL PROTOCOL. because both you and your friends were wholly ignorant of local trail protocol you vitriolically "educated" the riders you assumed (oops, didn't you condemn others for assuming?) were flagrantly disregarding the rules. in fact, you plainly stated, "A lot of problems ensue from making assumptions without asking for information."

    safe to say this wouldn't have blown up in your face if you hadn't began with your specious and unfounded assumptions.

    further, if you REALLY believe in education then start by educating YOURSELF on the rules then follow up with the three middle aged ladies. instead, you're focused on back pedaling, rationalizing/justifying/minimizing, continuing to lambaste those who called you out on your BS, and arrogantly continuing to joust your windmills.

    in short, the IMBA rules you keep mentioning DO NOT TRUMP the cameron park trail protocol. i hope that is literal enough.

    as i mentioned previously there are countless places across the country and globe where, like cameron park, it is stated EXPLICITLY that riders have the right of way - and contrary to your asinine, specious, and inane inference that does not mean riders have carte blanche to mow down pedestrians.

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau
    The purpose of my post...
    was crystal clear both then and now irrespective of how you flounder about in an attempt to spin it, and that's why it incited such ire and vitriol both here and on FB. that is why YOU PERSONALLY cost the waco bike club FOUR MEMBERS.
    Last edited by monogod; 09-18-2015 at 11:14 PM.
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    When you post on the behalf of an organization you're claiming to represent, you should keep that in mind. Coming off throwing around VP status of, what one would assume to be a decent sized organization usually leads to a post that should be professional and concise, especially if you're asking something of others, not the dickish sarcastic tone you claim.

    Again as an outsider looking in, I wouldn't be a paying member if I saw a post like this from someone representing an organization. You came across as if you were calling riders idiots, non-sensible morons who need to learn trail rules (that don't exist). Unless that was another "writers tool". Also, your sarcasm doesn't quite come across on the interwebz, and you end up just looking like a dick, and you make WBC look incompetent and run by people who can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
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    Actually, in such a relatively small park, with less than 25 miles of trails, signage in both directions is not a bad idea.

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    Actually, at the Redwood Shelter and entrance to the River Trail there is clear signage indicating that bikers yield to horses and pedestrians (hikers/runners). Check for yourself.

    I do not understand the comment 'taking their trail work away from them ... to enforce IMBA rules?' I do not advocate taking away trail work. Actually, how can one do this? The work is done - it is what it is. Do people think working on trails owned by the City of Waco that they now own that land? Hmme. I do believe in trail work. Hell, I used my day-off yesterday and also today to do trail work with chainsaws and picks cleaning up Weber Run for tomorrow's TMBRA race. I'm not racing either - just want to help out. I believe in trails and sweat equity. I can mail you my sweaty tee shirt if you want proof. (Oops, there is humor again, must stop trying to lighten things up...)

    My initial comments and continued posts focus on avoiding injury accidents to hikers and horse riders caused by cyclists going so fast that they cannot stop in time to avoid hurting another trail user. With potential litigation from the injured that may close the trails to mountain bikers permanently. FWIW, lawyers usually don't give a damn about who built the trail but who got hurt and is suing.

    BTW, I am amused that some aggressive negative comments and personal attacks against me have been recently edited/deleted on this forum. This does not make me 'right' nor them 'wrong'. Lets move on from right and wrong and focus on what makes good trails and how to keep them open in a busy urban park.

    I am also semi-amused that one of my strident critics on this forum nearly creamed into a couple riding last night on Cameron Park Trails. It was reported to me that the creamees were stopped to adjust their lights when the creamer (aka strident critic) came ripping around a corner, sans light, and nearly took out the wife. Enough said.

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    Thanks for your help on the trails. Lets move past this and work together to make CP safer for everyone. I am racing tomorrow and I DO appreciate it. Maybe have a relaxed meeting at redwood one day with runners/walkers and riders. Might need more then one moderator. lol. We have a lot of dedicated people that love CP and want to keep it one of the best trail systems in Texas.

    As far as the signs. They're not all the same. That would be a good start. Get rid of the confusion.

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    I am down with that. We have a great resource in Cameron Park. My wife and I moved here specifically to live near the park and use it, care for it, and make it better. There are not very many places in Texas that have such great potential. Private land owners adjacent to the park have plans for a pump track, more beginner trails, and places to chill and enjoy nature. What a blessing in an urban environment.

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    Well, I volunteered for the job of VP, mainly because no one else would volunteer. No one else ran against me. Rather than take your ball and go home, why not step up and take a leadership position? I am glad to pass the torch to the next person. Elections coming up in December. My main achievements so far is to get a jersey design to construction stage and do a fair bit of advocacy for better bike infrastructure for road bikes. These things take time - often one must have the patience of Job. So if you have a vision for the club I am sure it will be welcomed.

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    I did not delete my initial Facebook post. The page is moderated and after some very negative comments came in another club officer deleted all posts, mine include. So be it - everyone can use an editor.

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    If I wanted to use words that you use, such as 'idiots, non-sensible morons' then I would. Please do not put words in my mouth and I will not put words in your mouth. That is called mutual respect.

    My point that started this post, to beat the dead horse, is that three bike riders in Cameron Park were ripping around at peak use time, aka 10 a.m on a Saturday morning and nearly creamed some other trail users. If one thinks its ok for mountain bikers to just run over other trail users like they own the park, then rock on. In point of fact the trails are either owned by the City of Waco or private parties who allow trails to be built and used. The mountain bikers do not own the land, and the fact that some built trails in the past does not give them legal control.

    It may surprise you mark!, but we have a lot of lawyers in this country. When a hiker gets clobbered and severely injured by a mountain biker out-of-control (e.g. cannot stop without striking the hiker) then the injured hiker, or their survivors, may sue the land owners. Unless the landowners are paupers they will defend themselves by hiring lawyers. The defendants lawyers bill's add up fast. The easiest thing for a risk manager to do to avoid future law suit is to eliminate the 'perceived problem' and to ban the mountain bikes. Whether the risk manager is right or not is moot. The mountain bikes are out. This has happened all over the USA. Whether right or wrong it is reality. And it will likely happen here in Cameron Park if someone is severely injured by a speeding mountain biker not in control of his/her machine. This is reality. If you disagree with me go talk to your lawyer first...

    And how did this all happen? Mountain bikers did not police themselves. But wait, there is more. We can educate each other. Share information. MTBR is here as a resource.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    I do not understand the comment 'taking their trail work away from them ... to enforce IMBA rules?'
    who said that?

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau
    I do believe in trail work. Hell, I used my day-off yesterday and also today to do trail work with chainsaws and picks cleaning up Weber Run for tomorrow's TMBRA race. I'm not racing either - just want to help out. I believe in trails and sweat equity. I can mail you my sweaty tee shirt if you want proof. (Oops, there is humor again, must stop trying to lighten things up...)
    i believe in trailwork as well but you can keep your sweaty shirt because i have soiled/ripped/ruined/bloodied my share of clothing building/maintaining trails and bridges and volunteering to help promote and work events in the park for a decade.

    your effort and service in that area is appreciated, and that i say with all sincerity, but you are by no means the only one that has ever dedicated their time and effort into trail work so please dismount your lofty equine. there are lots of people (myself included) that have dedicated an inordinate amount of their time over the years (many far more than i) who have done their part then stepped aside to let others share the burden. think of it as a paceline of sorts.

    so please don't try to turn this into who has logged more trail hours in the park, my friend. that's pure weaksauce and not a challenge you should make until you get many, many more years under your belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau
    BTW, I am amused that some aggressive negative comments and personal attacks against me have been recently edited/deleted on this forum. This does not make me 'right' nor them 'wrong'. Lets move on from right and wrong and focus on what makes good trails and how to keep them open in a busy urban park.
    nope. havent seen any posts deleted and all edits are tracked and can be reviewed. so yet again you're making baseless allegations.

    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau
    I am also semi-amused that one of my strident critics on this forum nearly creamed into a couple riding last night on Cameron Park Trails. It was reported to me that the creamees were stopped to adjust their lights when the creamer (aka strident critic) came ripping around a corner, sans light, and nearly took out the wife. Enough said.
    sorry, pal. but you are either lying or were lied to.

    for starters, it was WEDNESDAY night when i saw the couple on the trail - not friday night. for another, i'm not sure this couple would appreciate you dragging them into your pissing match on a worldwide forum, so i will redact their names for privacy's sake and call them "the couple", "the husband", and "the wife".

    FACT: the couple in question was not stopped to adjust their lights when i passed either one. as we see by his own words in the screenshot below the husband had stopped because he didn't want to follow the wife down the trail as fast as she was going because he had a dim light and i passed him when he had already stopped of his own volition. so if you were told they stopped because they had to adjust their lights or were almost run off the trail you were blatantly lied to.

    as i passed him i thanked him and he called out "rider" to the wife and she pulled COMPLETELY off the trail and was at a COMPLETE STANDSTILL when i passed her while i was climbing up from the bottom most section of drain pipe by the river trail.

    so i neither "nearly creamed" them nor was i "ripping around a corner" nor "bombing down the trail" while climbing up out of drainpipe at less than 5mph as the wife was completely off the trail and stationary.

    then shortly afterward when they were riding the river trail toward RWS and saw me at the mouth of the bosque loading my bike they smiled, waved, and greeted me and i returned the greeting.

    the screenshot is one the wife posted that in another forum yesterday afternoon where she falsely accused me of bombing down the trail wednesday night, being in the park yesterday morning bombing trails at 10am when in fact i was home sleeping, and was pretty much ragging on another person and myself for vocalizing our displeasure with your actions, demeanor, tone, and general representation of the bike club on FB and empty beer.

    my response to her false accusation was to tell her that i loved and valued both her and the husband and was more than willing to sit down with them and clear up any misunderstanding. all of which i have screenshots of as well if you doubt. her response was one of vitriol and departure from the forum.

    i would gladly send you an unedited copy via pm so you can verify it is from the couple in question, but that is not possible. however, i'll gladly meet you for coffee and let you see not only the unedited screenshot below but the conversation between she and i that precipitated her posting it to the other group.

    oh, and what the husband is explaining and saying "he is seeing what he wants to see" is in response to my mistaken belief he had pulled over with the intention of letting me pass when in fact he had actually pulled over voluntarily before i encountered them. an assumption (see how dangerous they are?) i had relayed when the wife falsely accused me of running her off the trail wednesday night while she was standing still and i was climbing out of drainpipe at 5mph (if that).

    i'm not super close with the couple but have known them for a long time and they have always struck me as people of integrity, so i'm certainly as befuddled that they would present the scenario to you in such a blatantly false manner. so perhaps you're simply misrepresenting it for your own benefit.

    Waco Riding in Cameron Park - Applies to all mtb riders really-2015-09-20_00.34.17%5B1%5D.jpg
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  33. #33
    meh... whatever
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    I do not put words in my mouth and I will not put words in your mouth. That is called mutual respect.
    au contraire mon frere!!!!

    you say this, yet this is precisely what you have done and continue to do.

    specifically, "If one thinks its ok for mountain bikers to just run over other trail users like they own the park, then rock on.", "So you are saying that its ok for bike riders to run over other trail users if they do not get out of the way quickly enough?", "The mountain bikers do not own the land, and the fact that some built trails in the past does not give them legal control."

    no one has said, implied, nor could a reasonably sane person infer this has been the explicit or implicit position of ANYONE who has commented.

    you have tossed out so many red herrings and set up so many straw men it is difficult to even keep up and you render coherent, logical, reasoned a near impossibility.
    Last edited by monogod; 09-21-2015 at 02:35 PM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTfan View Post
    Thanks for your help on the trails. Lets move past this and work together to make CP safer for everyone. I am racing tomorrow and I DO appreciate it. Maybe have a relaxed meeting at redwood one day with runners/walkers and riders. Might need more then one moderator. lol. We have a lot of dedicated people that love CP and want to keep it one of the best trail systems in Texas.

    As far as the signs. They're not all the same. That would be a good start. Get rid of the confusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau
    I am down with that. We have a great resource in Cameron Park. My wife and I moved here specifically to live near the park and use it, care for it, and make it better. There are not very many places in Texas that have such great potential. Private land owners adjacent to the park have plans for a pump track, more beginner trails, and places to chill and enjoy nature. What a blessing in an urban environment.
    i'm down with that as well. i share your love, admiration, and appreciation for CP. i moved here here from austin and have invested years of my life into building, maintaining, and promoting the trails. i remember when there were far fewer trails. when powder monkey and weber's run didn't exist and the effort that went into building them and their bridges. heck, i even stapled my finger to one of the bridges and it took a screwdriver and pair of pliers to secure my release.

    over the years i have volunteered for countless events including non-cycling ones (GASP!). for years i participated in the club actively as a ride leader, taught skills clinics, and have trained countless people over the years including some who are today local legends in mtb racing. heck, myself and another guy designed the website and got it up and running! i was supposed to get a lifetime membership for that one but didn't.

    so you see, dave, it is from this love, passion, and dedication to the park i adore and have invested so much of my life and heart into that caused your post on FB and here to rub me wrong. to that end it bears mentioning that i wasn't the only one who was offended by your words or attitude, so please take that into humble consideration. your intent may have been good but the delivery was all wrong. happens to the best of us at times. as someone who sometimes speaks my mind without much of a filter i know this first hand.

    tell you what, bro - if you want to meet for coffee, a reasoned discussion, and bury the hatchet (in your head, of course) i will extend an olive branch and am going to friend you on FB so we can make it happen.

    the ball's in your court...
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  35. #35
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    Sinfony78 said the bit about taking away their trails. Read that person's posts from two days ago.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmoreau View Post
    Sinfony78 said the bit about taking away their trails. Read that person's posts from two days ago.
    fair enough.

    now please address the other points.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  37. #37
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    Hey guys, can't we all get along...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFx-5PGLgb4

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    drmoreau... perhaps you should resign your position at the Waco bike riding club and join a hiking/running club? You suggest that bikers make concessions to hikers and ride at 2 am, but I guess hikers changing their times to use the trail is not an option, as if they have priority? And after reading the responses I see that you are not even aware of the local trail rules. Your interest does not at all seem to lie with the cycling community based on what you have posted in this forum. What comes from the mouth (or in this case keyboard) is what truly is in the heart. Not sure how/why you became president of the cycling club, but it seems a local running/hiking club would benefit much more if you were their leader, and your leadership could/may end up being detrimental to any cycling club.

    Unless you are in places like certain parts of Colorado, Utah, California (and a few others), you are used to other trail user groups somehow becoming convinced that they have priority and precedent over mountain bikers. Although the story is almost always the same... there usually would not be a trail system unless the mountain bikers had gone and built them, and then spend time and effort maintaining them (most always using their own resources and without expecting or asking for compensation). Often rules do require that bikers yield to hikers/runners, but one thing to consider is that it is relatively very easy and a quick, minor interruption for a hiker/runner to step to the side of the trail to let a biker pass. It's much more difficult and inconvenient for a biker to move to the side or out of the trail and to come to a stop. With that said all trail users should be courteous and accommodating toward others. But seriously, you do not seem to understand or have an interest in the needs/position of the cycling community - you do not at all appear to be good representative, please go find another hobby, or maybe you could join the board of your local Homeowner's association if you feel the need to be president over something.

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