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    Surly Pack Rat

    Looks like announcement is close. I saw couple of posts here and there, some referencing their LBS saying it will replace Pacer
    Surly Pack Rat Touring Frame Kit, 650B, 56cm, moss green-FM1496

    650B, Moss Green
    Looks like smaller frames will get 26 inch wheels (if you browse the store linked above)

    Post your intel here!

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    Surly Pack Rat-surly-pack-rat.jpg

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    I hope this is true. I'd be on one for sure.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    Also, let's hope for a straightforward rear dropout like on the Disc Trucker. And bottle mounts on the fork. And while we're at it clearence for 650b by 2.25 or 26x 2.5. Great!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    Also, let's hope for a straightforward rear dropout like on the Disc Trucker. And bottle mounts on the fork. And while we're at it clearence for 650b by 2.25 or 26x 2.5. Great!
    ^^ ALL THIS ^^ for sure

    I'm in on one of these, nearly 100% even without seeing specs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    Also, let's hope for a straightforward rear dropout like on the Disc Trucker. And bottle mounts on the fork. And while we're at it clearence for 650b by 2.25 or 26x 2.5. Great!
    Yes, please! All I want is roadish geo for drop bars, clearance for fat 650B or 26 slicks (like Schwalbe G-One 27.5x2.35) and loads of braze ons for gazillions water bottles and racks. And not off-road tank, reasonably light frame. In short something like Crust Bikes Dreamer or Romanceur at Surly price

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    Surly Pugsley
    Surly Instigator 1.0

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    Quote Originally Posted by cassa89 View Post
    Interesting! I think MidNight special would be similar to All-City Cosmic Stallion

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    Sadly there is no 60cm Pack Rat? Perhaps it's a slopping TT bike and rides bigger than one would think based on ST. Let's hope so. Looks like the Midnight Special is definitely the Pacer replacement. Nice to see that the Pugs will remain.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    That German site had the knot-boost brown Ogre frames up for a long time (months?) before the Surly blog post and official announcement, so I hope the same doesn't happen with these new bikes, as I am in the market for a new frame.

    I am wondering if the Pack Rat swings more toward Troll/Ogre/ECR or more toward the LHT/DT?

    *Edit: I made a MidNight Special thread, to let this thread concentrate on the Pack Rat; poor little guy was in danger of being overshadowed by his new sibling.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 09-16-2017 at 10:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    Sadly there is no 60cm Pack Rat? Perhaps it's a slopping TT bike and rides bigger than one would think based on ST. Let's hope so. Looks like the Midnight Special is definitely the Pacer replacement. Nice to see that the Pugs will remain.
    Yeah, I think MidNight Special is a replacement for Pacer and not Pack Rat as people reported earlier.
    I emailed my Surly/All-City dealer and asked if they have any additional info on Pack Rat. Will also ask them about MS

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    That German site had the knot-boost brown Ogre frames up for a long time (months?) before the Surly blog post and official announcement, so I hope the same doesn't happen with these new bikes, as I am in the market for a new frame.

    I am wondering if the Pack Rat swings more toward Troll/Ogre/ECR or more toward the LHT/DT?

    I am guessing that the 650B part of the MidNight Special refers to 650x47B road plus type tires, like the WTB Horizon, or the newer knobbier versions. Might be a decent randonneur? I am a little concerned about the price in Euros, though, and am wondering if they're going to use a new type of steel for it.
    If previously reported info is correct (Pack Rat will be shipped with front rack as complete) I'd venture to guess it will be in the middle, more roadish but lighter duty compared to LHT and I hope it will be low trail. I took out rohloff from Krampus (like Krampus as SS much more) with intention to relace it to 650B rim and build 1x1 with it and fat Schwalbe g-one's (1x1 has gobs of clearance for these tires and fenders) but now I will wait till Pack Rat info is announced. I'd much rather have these tires on more road oriented frame and with drops

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    Pack Rat will be shipped with front rack as complete

    The Surly front rack? It's an awesome rack for loaded touring, but for anything lighter than a LHT/DT it might be a bit of overkill.

    *Edit: If it comes with a rack, it will probably be an 8-Pack Rack or a 24-Pack Rack, both of which would be more suited to a fast tourer than the regular Surly front rack.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 09-18-2017 at 08:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    (Pack Rat will be shipped with front rack as complete)

    The Surly front rack? It's an awesome rack for loaded touring, but for anything lighter than a LHT/DT it might be a bit of overkill.
    Do not know. Someone heard it from their LBS, no details.

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    We may have to wait till late Oct (I hope not) - teaser vid of new Straggler, https://www.instagram.com/p/BY6rDgeH...cticsurlybikes

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    Why would a Euro distributor already have product listings and prices for models that haven't officially been announced yet? Seems like a good way to get your distributorship yanked.

    Regardless, none of those photos are loading (for me, at least).
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    Why would a Euro distributor already have product listings and prices for models that haven't officially been announced yet? Seems like a good way to get your distributorship yanked.

    Regardless, none of those photos are loading (for me, at least).
    It does, right? They had the new Ogre up for ages before it was officially announced as well. Maybe they're mad keen on getting as many pre-orders as possible?

    *Edit: I just realized that Interbike is coming up next week, so maybe we'll see the new models unveiled there? (We won't.) At this stage it's pretty much that or Frostbike, sometime early next year (Seems more likely, after the info Mongol777 got).
    Last edited by PDKL45; 09-19-2017 at 05:49 AM.

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    Have you guys seen Black Mountain Cycles' prototype? It will be interesting to see how the new Surly offerings will compare.

    Project Progress - Let's Talk Road Plus - Black Mountain Cycles

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    Quote Originally Posted by gios8 View Post
    Have you guys seen Black Mountain Cycles' prototype? It will be interesting to see how the new Surly offerings will compare.

    Project Progress - Let's Talk Road Plus - Black Mountain Cycles
    Yes, saw the prototype - waiting to see what comes out. I want to get the new frame (s) in Oct-Nov and I doubt BMC will have them ready by then.
    I had high hopes for Cosmic Stallion too but tire clearance was disappointing.

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    Friday and no word from Surly HQ.

    I was hoping Surly would post something about new products but nothing today. Super curious about this Pack Rat bike. I wonder if they'll do a 29" version in larger sizes? One thing I did come across which I had not really looked at before is the Crust Bikes Evasion. Really, this seems like my ideal bike--26+ clearance, lots of braze-ons for racks and cages, and designed around drop bars. If it turns out that there is no Pack Rat then I may look towards one of these. Props to Crust Bikes for putting out bikes that seem even weirder than Surly.

    https://crustbikes.com/products/the-...s-the-evasion/

    Another awesome bike Crust sells:
    https://crustbikes.com/products/the-romanceur-presale/
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    I was hoping Surly would post something about new products but nothing today. Super curious about this Pack Rat bike. I wonder if they'll do a 29" version in larger sizes? One thing I did come across which I had not really looked at before is the Crust Bikes Evasion. Really, this seems like my ideal bike--26+ clearance, lots of braze-ons for racks and cages, and designed around drop bars. If it turns out that there is no Pack Rat then I may look towards one of these. Props to Crust Bikes for putting out bikes that seem even weirder than Surly.

    https://crustbikes.com/products/the-...s-the-evasion/

    Another awesome bike Crust sells:
    https://crustbikes.com/products/the-romanceur-presale/
    I mentioned them above. Great frames and from what I hear Matt is really stand up guy. They are my backup plan or National Forest Explorer

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    The NFE looks great. I've seen a number of them around town (pDX). Nice to have options.

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    I just got clearance for an N+1, so now I am chomping at the bit to see the Pack Rat and the MidNight Special myself. I want to build a traditional(ish) style randonneur for brevets and other long distance rides and both of the forthcoming bikes, based on wheelsize and the hints I have gotten, sound like they might be good candidates.

    *Edit to add: I really like the NFE as well, and the Elephant Bikes builder, Glen Copus, is really cool. On the Elephant blog there's a great post (link below) about a one-off 700c bits bike he built and modifications he made to an old road suspension fork.

    It is not an NFE!

    *Edit 2: Interview with Glen Copus.

    Glen Copus: An Elephant’s Place in Cycling History | The Bicycle Story

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    The NFE looks great. I've seen a number of them around town (pDX). Nice to have options.
    I like NFE a lot too but would like a bit more clearance. If exchange rate was a bit more favorable for Canadian dollar I'd be riding Romanceur already, ticks all the boxes for my next build, can use common hubs (100/135) and has threaded fork with ability to use traditional stem as a bonus (personal preference)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    I just got clearance for an N+1,
    Congrats! My N+1 went out of control long time ago. Last time I counted I had close to 30 bikes (including my old frames which I rebuilt for CEO so I don't have to sell them and she can enjoy quality ride). Probably about 20 in ready to ride condition and around 10 in various stages of building. That and CDN/USD Exchange rate keeps me from getting Romanceur, NFE or Dreamer (for now :-))

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    Please let it be drop bar, flat top tube, regular 27.5x2.2ish compatible with relaxed road geometry and original troll drop outs (not gnot boost) with 3 bottle mounts + and rack mounts. . . please. . .

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    The dropouts will be crucial to the Pack Rat, I agree. I was heavily considering an Ogre as an N+1, but I have to admit the dropouts were somewhat off putting. Traditional Troll dropouts would be awesome.

    Edit #457: Looks like those links to Cosmic Sports in Germany have been taken down, even though they're still coming up in Google. It's almost like someone from QBP was reading threads at MTBR and found a leak in the embargo or something...
    Last edited by PDKL45; 09-17-2017 at 06:59 AM.

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    OK, this is what I have so far (prices in Canadian $$$) and as usual dates are subject to change:
    Both Pack Rat and Midnight special will be available in Feb 2018
    Announcement is coming around Oct 15
    Pack Rat complete will be $2099 CDN, no info on frameset
    Midnight Special frameset will be $995 CDN

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    Midnight Special frameset will be $995 CDN
    That's really sad, replacing a perfectly fine $500 frame with a $1000 frame which will need an extra $250 in parts to build up (assuming it's disc specific).

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    Quote Originally Posted by helo_rc View Post
    That's really sad, replacing a perfectly fine $500 frame with a $1000 frame which will need an extra $250 in parts to build up (assuming it's disc specific).
    When was the last time you bought Pacer frame in Canada? It was not a $500 frame for several years now (unless you are buying with shop discount)
    And while it has pretty devoted following - probably takes longest to sell, 2nd hand or new (as complete). That is from personal experience and from talking to couple of shops.
    I am with you on sad but I am more excited to see what's new

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    Something new at the Cycle Show?

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BZQ_0oRlIUi/

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetleaf View Post
    Something new at the Cycle Show?

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BZQ_0oRlIUi/
    Red is Krampus, Orange is KM, Big Fat Dummy upfront, Ogre on the right

    I see two bikes with drops, the one with bags (at the very back) surely can be a Pack Rat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    Red is Krampus, Orange is KM, Big Fat Dummy upfront, Ogre on the right

    I see two bikes with drops, the one with bags (at the very back) surely can be a Pack Rat!
    I'm about 99% sure that's an All City Cosmic Stallion with that gold and black paint job.

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    I think ECR on the right, with the same moloko bars as the Ogre. I agree with PMC, though, the bike with bags to the rear looks like a Cosmic Stallion.

    You can see what looks like a disco blue Straggler behind the big fat dummy, but I am drawing a blank on the drop bar bike sŤn from the rear, closest to camera.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    You can see what looks like a disco blue Straggler behind the big fat dummy, but I am drawing a blank on the drop bar bike sŤn from the rear, closest to camera.
    I think that may be the new gray Disc Trucker with the bar end shifters and disc brakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMC View Post
    I'm about 99% sure that's an All City Cosmic Stallion with that gold and black paint job.
    You are totally right, zoomed in and it is 100% Cosmic Stallion. Oh, well - may be interbike will bring some news

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    You are totally right, zoomed in and it is 100% Cosmic Stallion. Oh, well - may be interbike will bring some news
    I have been glued to Instagram, but I am not sure if Surly are there this year. Interbike seems to be waning in terms of influence these days, as more manufacturers choose to hold their own ride camps, a la Saddledrive and Frostbike.

    I think the embargo is holding; Surly maybe got sick of the disappointed rumblings when they released products months in advance of availability?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    I have been glued to Instagram, but I am not sure if Surly are there this year. Interbike seems to be waning in terms of influence these days, as more manufacturers choose to hold their own ride camps, a la Saddledrive and Frostbike.

    I think the embargo is holding; Surly maybe got sick of the disappointed rumblings when they released products months in advance of availability?
    Not sick enough - bike shops and distributors know announcement and availability dates :-) They should really take some lessons from All City, their last releases like Log Lady and Cosmic Stallion were managed excellent. No prior leaks, nice reveals, availability as promised. And I say it with most love as I pretty much exclusively ride Surly and AC

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    Has anyone heard murmurings about a new Surly 650B tire? I know Surly have the 650x41 Knard, but you would think that they would try to separate a new light tourer with drop bar geometry apart from the 650B Straggler by using a different tire.

    Maybe the completes will wear Continentals or something? Still, it will be interesting to see the rubber that the complete Pack Rat ends up with.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 09-22-2017 at 03:24 AM.

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    maybe thisSurly Pack Rat-21741040_10155239277958778_8195927242893527996_o.jpgSurly Pack Rat-21740594_10155239277633778_2228054488523612255_n.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalpine View Post
    maybe thisClick image for larger version. 

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    Straggler 650B with flat bars and 8-pack rack?

    It's not exactly moss green, but prototypes are commonly different colors to the production models. Plus, there is no model name, but I'm not really seeing anything that would really set the pictured bike apart from a flat bar straggler.

    Can anyone else see something that I'm missing?

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    Looks like a classic low-trail Paris newspaper or porteur bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllRounder View Post
    Looks like a classic low-trail Paris newspaper or porteur bike.
    You have a point. Having done a Google image search, true porteur bikes didn't actually have the amount of rake to their forks that I was seeing in my mind's eye and the porteur racks were similarly positioned (in some of the old photos), with the mid point further forward than the front axle.

    Maybe.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 09-25-2017 at 07:09 PM.

  44. #44
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    Pretty sure Fatalpine posted example of potential tires which would come stock on PR.
    Not sure if any Surly ships with WTB tires today but I could be wrong

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    I was just thinking... If there really is a Pack Rat on the way, I wonder if it's going to be designed with low trail so that it's more stable when paired with a Surly 8 & 24 Pack Rack racks? That could make sense, right?

    I had a great ride on my Ogre today on dirt roads in the GPNF. The roads were a bit much for my LHT so I was glad I was on my Ogre with ETs. Still, I prefer drops to flats (or Jones bars like I have on my Ogre). I'm really hoping the Pack Rat is a drop bar bike for large volume tires. Doesn't have to be plus tires, but at least 2.4s. Fingers crossed.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    I was just thinking... If there really is a Pack Rat on the way, I wonder if it's going to be designed with low trail so that it's more stable when paired with a Surly 8 & 24 Pack Rack racks? That could make sense, right?

    I had a great ride on my Ogre today on dirt roads in the GPNF. The roads were a bit much for my LHT so I was glad I was on my Ogre with ETs. Still, I prefer drops to flats (or Jones bars like I have on my Ogre). I'm really hoping the Pack Rat is a drop bar bike for large volume tires. Doesn't have to be plus tires, but at least 2.4s. Fingers crossed.
    Someone in the pacer thread said that their LBS reported that the Rat Ride would "be optimized for front loads" or something like that, so low trail with 8-Pack/24-pack rack would stand to reason. It would be kinda cool, and really quite radical, if they did it with straight fork legs, like the Faraday Porteur commuter without the electric stuff.

    The whole (hopefully temporary?) retirement of the 1x1 (originally known as the Rat Ride 1x1) just before the debut of a new model with the name "Rat" in the title is interesting, as noted in the 1x1 retirement thread, so I'm kinda stoked to see what turns up. A tough little mid-trail utility hauler based on the 1x1 or a more slender, low-trail road focused offering?

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    Low trail would make sense, and that style of bike would fill that void that Crust/Elephant are doing well with right now.
    Jason
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    Bump

    I heard this was basically a pacer with a front rack and slightly slacked out hta.

    Any word on this or the Midnight Special?

    Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

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    Looks like we still have a while to wait for an announcement and actual details. Some cat who says he's from Surly posted the following:

    "I would tell you (all about the Pack Rat and MidNight Special) but the marketing and sales team would shun me for life.

    What I can say is that these bikes will go live in the next couple of months and bikes should be available early next year."

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    This cat should take one for the team
    I am getting closer and closer to pulling the trigger on Romanceur or Evasion. What I am afraid of - PR and MS will turn out to be great frames but will come with short head tubes and I would regret not just getting Crust frame already. I am not afraid to run the stack of spacers but I do appreciate ample room for frame bags and bottles on non-Surly bikes (like my All-City bikes).

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    This cat should take one for the team
    I am getting closer and closer to pulling the trigger on Romanceur or Evasion. What I am afraid of - PR and MS will turn out to be great frames but will come with short head tubes and I would regret not just getting Crust frame already. I am not afraid to run the stack of spacers but I do appreciate ample room for frame bags and bottles on non-Surly bikes (like my All-City bikes).
    I don't think the PR or MS will be like the Crust bikes you mention. I think they're going to be interesting but they'll be different than those bikes based on what I know which is very little.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Looks like we still have a while to wait for an announcement and actual details. Some cat who says he's from Surly posted the following:

    "I would tell you (all about the Pack Rat and MidNight Special) but the marketing and sales team would shun me for life.

    What I can say is that these bikes will go live in the next couple of months and bikes should be available early next year."

    I need to sell some stuff to make room for a PR or MnS so early next year fits my timeline. But man, it's going to be hard waiting a couple more months to see specs. Upside - Black Mountain Cycles aka Mike Varley may have his Road Plus details hammered out and posted by that time so I'll have an extra option to think about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    I don't think the PR or MS will be like the Crust bikes you mention. I think they're going to be interesting but they'll be different than those bikes based on what I know which is very little.
    I do agree that MS will not be like Crust frames I mentioned, likely will be close to Cosmic Stallion. But I hope PR will be within the same lines (drops, faaaat tires and low trail).

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    This cat should take one for the team
    He's almost there! He listed ECR, Ogre, and Troll for some dude who has a LHT but wants to get an offroad Surly and then said:

    "The pack rat is going to be more similar to the LHT than the line up I just listed."

    It's not much, but I think we can assume dropbar/road geometry.

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    Mostly same info as here, posting for future reference
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Surlybikefa...night_special/
    Plus couple of remarks here and there on that sub (r/surlybikefans)

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    I won't say the suspense is killing me but I'm really curious to see the Pack Rat and what's so different about it compared to the LHT. I had been hoping for a Surly like Fargo but from what I heard, reliable source, that's not what it is. I'm sure it'll be versatile, that fatties will fit fine, and that the color will please half the people and turn off the other half.

    That link to the distributor site at the beginning of the thread only listed it in sizes up to 58 and for 650b wheels . What about bigger sizes? I ride a 60cm CC and LHT.
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    I'm excited for this bike. I need a new commuter bike with racks and fenders. Not sure if this or a CC will end up in my garage.
    Last edited by Rylan570; 11-14-2017 at 01:01 PM.

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    Surly Pack Rat-23519246_10155857529162556_4999431332778621476_n.jpg
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-15-2017 at 08:24 PM.

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    Want! When the first rumblings of this came through with that link to the European distributor it appeared to only go up to size 58. I wonder if they'll be doing them in a 60cm with 700c wheels. I hope so. I could put one together with parts I have laying around. I wonder what the tire clearance is?
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    Want! When the first rumblings of this came through with that link to the European distributor it appeared to only go up to size 58. I wonder if they'll be doing them in a 60cm with 700c wheels. I hope so. I could put one together with parts I have laying around. I wonder what the tire clearance is?
    I'm curious about the clearance as well. Maybe 27.5x2.1/2.2 without fenders and 650x47 with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    I'm curious about the clearance as well. Maybe 27.5x2.1/2.2 without fenders and 650x47 with?
    That would be nice. If they do it in 60cm and it's 700c, I'll be set. I have a SS wheel all set to go and everything else. Hard to say if I'd go with drops or some kind of upright bar like an Albatross bar.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    Looks like a 2012 Salsa Casseroll w/smaller wheels & bigger tires...
    Don't get me wrong - always wanted one.

    Surly Pack Rat-bikes_casseroll_comp11.jpg

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    hmm from what i gather it's not really low trail, after all. kinda bummed about that.
    also hope there's gonna be a disc version of it. not too keen on rimbrakes anymore.

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    I see the photo the bike was removed... I wonder how long we're going to have to wait for Surly to release info about it. I'm really curious as to their thinking. I'm curious why they just didn't release an aftermarket low trail fork for the CC or LHT. Why a 650b rim bike? Not too much choice in the way of rims, although enough choice.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    The "respect the embargo" stuff is incredibly annoying. Almost as annoying as showing a new model at a bike show, then never releasing it, or releasing it with limited stock.

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    I have so much interest in this bike. I think it fills a great niche. Needed? Probably not. I imagine the geo is in-between the CC and LHT. Same with the tubing. I bet it'll have gnot-rite spacing. Clearly it takes racks and fenders. Looks to even have triple mounts on the DT. Also has DT shifter braze-ons. The big question for me is sizing. I sure hope they don't max out at 58cm. The original post to the European site had them only going to 58cm. Perhaps a 58 PR with it's sloping TT will fit just like a 60cm CC/LHT. I hope so. I even have the funds put aside to pay for a frame. I had heard it would be affordable.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    I am gathering it is a road touring bike. How it will fit in with the LHT, the Cross Check and the Straggler isnít clear to me. The LHT seems to be the king of heavy load touring bikes! People in bike touring groups swear by them over far more expensive bikes. I canít quite see Surly making a purposed ďurban commuter bikeĒ but it might be good for that, too.

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    Cross Check's replacement perhaps?
    Jason
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    Looks like a ccheck with a proper length headtube and a goofy fork.

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    there's been plenty of discussion on the gram, and I believe it's the rider in that leaked photo that says it rides nothing like a CC. Obviously there are lots of factors that could be factored into that.

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    It's filed under "Touring" on their Bikes page, so by some sort of logic probably leans more towards a LHT or maybe-light touring bike. But I thought the Straggler/CC already fit the bill as light tourers, so who knows what's going on.

    Bikes | Surly Bikes

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    Note: The Pack Rat is mid trail with a very steel head tube angle, it is not low trail. I will leave the following comment here, in edited form, as it was in answer to the comments above questioning its role in the Surly line up. Much of what I wrote below holds true, but for bikes that aren't the Pack Rat.

    While I like the Pack Rat a lot, there was basically no reason not to include disc brakes with the geometry and materials of the bike being what they are. The steep head tube angle and lack of associated fork rake will inevitably lead to toe overlap, the tire clearance is minimal and the dropouts leave a lot to be desired. I personally quite like the bike, but I can see why there's been such huge amounts of disappointment. Perhaps we all had our hopes up a little high...


    Low trail bikes, the PR style of bike (the PR is mid trail), have often been called tourers, for want of a better term, but they are actually ultra endurance road bikes. They can take a lowrider to mount a couple of panniers up front, for a light credit card tour, but come into their own on long distance unsupported rides, like a series of brevets of 200K, 300K, 400K and 600K with a Paris-Brest-Paris 1200K thrown in for good measure.

    Most randonneurs--the PR style of bike--feature ultra light tubing, very small racks and are renowned for lightness. The PR, in 4130 Natch, will be accessible to a much wider audience than something like a Rene Herse, a bike built by Boulder Cycles in Colorado using the name of a famous French constucteur, or a Box Dog Bikes Pelican. A lot of the internet sort of freaked out about the PR (Bicycle Pubes, I'm looking at you with amusement), but if you read Jan Heine's blog, Off the Beaten Path, or read Bicycle Quarterly, his magazine, you will probably appreciate where the PR is coming from.

    The geometry of low trail bikes suits front loading, and the old French bikes traditionally had a square box style bag, mounted on a small front rack and supported at the handlebars by a support bracket called a decaleur. It would be possible to do that with this bike, but Surly have the 24-pack rack. When coupled with the porteurhouse bag, the rack-bag combo is a modern take on the traditional randonneur bag-decaleur combo. It is worth noting that a porteur was a Parisian newspaper delivery bike that sported a porteur rack, the 24-pack rack's ancestor.

    A lot of people also questioned the lack of disc brakes. Low trail forks cannot handle the forces generated by disc brakes while remaining light and springy enough to impart desirable ride characteristics. The forces on raked low trail forks can be destructive in the case that they are left light enough to be compliant and provide overall bicycle lightness. Thus, they require rim brakes if they are to remain light and able to absorb some road chatter. The DT can have discs because it is a mid trail design, and forces work differently. They're also beefier and heavier for strength. If the LHT/DT is influenced by Rivendell bikes and Grant Petersen's design philosophy, the PR is influenced by Jan Heine of Bicycle Quarterly and his advocacy of mid 20th Century French designs.

    The LHT/DT is a loaded tourer, the cross check is a cyclocrosser while the PR is a randonneur, or at least, a bike in the style of a randonneur. While it will probably be a bit heavier than high end randonneurs with their light tubing, it will have a much better pricepoint, allowing this style of bike to be accessible to a lot more people. Owners of completes, and of course, those building up a frame, will also be able to add touches like light Compass tires, Honjo, Soma or VO fenders, aftermarket Nitto or Compass randonneur handlebars, and tiny VO constructeur racks to made a traditional randonneur style bike.

    Rather than replacing any current bike in the Surly lineup, I think the Pack Rat will add a useful option for those in search of a cheap low trail bike with a threadless headset, something not really previously available at the same pricepoint. A threadless headset will allow for the use of a wider range of unfussy stems and handlebars, unlike a couple of similarly priced randonneur frames.

    Rene Herse Bicycles

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    A beginners guide to randonneuring | Bicycle Times Magazine

    Lovely Bicycle!: Choosing Your Gospel: Rivendell vs Bicycle Quarterly
    Last edited by PDKL45; 12-04-2017 at 04:14 PM.

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    low trail discs

    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    A lot of people also questioned the lack of disc brakes. Low trail forks cannot handle them, it's as simple as that. The forces on the raked forks can be destructive, so they need rim brakes. The DT can have discs because it is a mid trail design, and forces work differently. If the LHT/DT is influenced by Rivendell bikes and Grant Petersen's design philosophy, the PR is influenced by Jan Heine of Bicycle Quarterly and his advocacy of mid 20th Century French designs.
    Eh, I don't agree regarding discs & low trail forks. Look at bikes that crust & elephant are putting out & you will see that isn't an issue. Norther cycles in PDX are also making low trail disc forks that don't have this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misternicholas View Post
    Eh, I don't agree regarding discs & low trail forks. Look at bikes that crust & elephant are putting out & you will see that isn't an issue. Norther cycles in PDX are also making low trail disc forks that don't have this issue.
    Elephant did have a problem with their low trail disc forks, which AFAIK, has ben addressed successfully. I actually agree with you, but I probably won't go back for the nth revision (Ha!). The lighter, springier steels used in really high end bikes might not like disc braking forces, but others are seemingly solving the problem.

    So yeah, I don't know. I guess mine was one possible explanation for the lack of disc brakes, but it may not be the actual answer. Hitting a particular price point? Going for lightness over strength in the fork crown? I don't actually know.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-17-2017 at 12:34 AM.

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    Blah, blah, blah...our new secret bike(s????), now you see 'em now you don't. We love you Surly but puhleez just fug off with the hide n seek and ever-changing timelines. You're like that cute somebody with low self esteem that flirts incessantly but can't commit, milking attention all the way along, and finally coming off an annoying narcissistic snob. Maybe your meds need adjusting?

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    Oh, and I think there will be hell to pay if both the CC and the 1x1 get shelved in one go. Proverbial foot shot. Wouldn't be the first one of those we've seen in the last while though.

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    Iím sure they will address the reason behind no discs. They are getting lit up right now on IG regarding the brake choice. Iím really curious to see the geo chart for this one. It looks to be mid trail (50-65mm) to me. If all my years of starring at bikes on the internet has taught me anything. If thatís the case, Iím really confused where this fits between pacer, Strag, check, and LHT and why they put rim brakes on it. If it truly is low trail & light tubing then it makes sense. Although I would expect QBP could engineer a low trail fork that doesnít buckle. If a small company like crust can do it, I donít see why surly and QBP canít?

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    I was expecting a much more aggressive rake to the forks in the case of a rim brake bike; I agree that for a low trail bike it looks very mid trail. Maybe there was some conservatism in the design process? Designers wanting full blown low trail vs. marketers scared that a truely low trail design wouldn't sell in large numbers leading to a design compromise?
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-16-2017 at 08:56 PM.

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    The BQ crew don't use disc forks because they want to use very light weight fork blades for a compliant ride (and they love their centerpulls). You could easily do disc + low trail, but the disc part will make the fork stiffer and heavier.

    I don't have a problem at all with the rim brakes on the PR. I guess I'm in the minority here. But I'm glad Surly is still going their own way.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Elephant did have a problem with their low trail disc forks, which AFAIK, has ben addressed successfully. I actually agree with you, but I probably won't go back for the nth revision. The lighter, springier steels used in really high end bikes might not like disc braking forces, but others are seemingly solving the problem.

    So yeah, I don't know. I guess mine was one possible explanation for the lack of disc brakes, but it may not be the actual answer. Hitting a particular price point? Going for lightness over strength in the fork crown? I don't actually know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    The BQ crew don't use disc forks because they want to use very light weight fork blades for a compliant ride (and they love their centerpulls). You could easily do disc + low trail, but the disc part will make the fork stiffer and heavier.

    I don't have a problem at all with the rim brakes on the PR. I guess I'm in the minority here. But I'm glad Surly is still going their own way.
    That's true, the compliance of narrow springy forks is often mentioned. I guess I should have clarified by saying that it increases weight and stiffness and maybe those are not desired in the PR.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-16-2017 at 08:57 PM.

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    Brakes for bikes like this---the rim brakes will work just fine. I actually prefer it to discs, personally.

    I just hope they don't come out with another goofy rear end. Stick with 130 or 135, Surly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2:01 View Post
    Brakes for bikes like this---the rim brakes will work just fine. I actually prefer it to discs, personally.

    I just hope they don't come out with another goofy rear end. Stick with 130 or 135, Surly.
    I've had no issues with the 132.5 spacing on my CC over the past 11years. The rear looks to use CC drop-outs which, along with the rim brakes, makes it work nicely with a flip/flop hub.

    It's funny that I find myself so excited about this bike. I picked up an Ogre frame back in June and while it's a great bike, it's sort of just sat around. The PR is just more the kind of bike I'm into. I sure it's a totally capable dirt road rambler.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    I wish Surly would follow Salsa's lead and introduce a traditional diamond frame touring bike in both flat and drop bar geometries. I would be riding a 26" LHT if they made a version with about 3cm more effective top tube length and it would be nice if this new bike came in a flat-bar version.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    I've had no issues with the 132.5 spacing on my CC over the past 11years. The rear looks to use CC drop-outs which, along with the rim brakes, makes it work nicely with a flip/flop hub...
    Yeah, I've had 2 CC's and others that have the "tweener" spacing. They work. But annoying, to me at least. I guess I just like to be able to cleanly drop in a wheel without spreading the frame apart or 50 turns of the skewer to secure the wheel. Again, nothing dramatic, but still annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post

    Rather than replacing any current bike in the Surly lineup, I think the Pack Rat will add a useful option for those in search of a cheap low trail bike with a threadless headset, something not really previously available at the same pricepoint. A threadless headset will allow for the use of a wider range of unfussy stems and handlebars, unlike a couple of similarly priced randonneur frames.

    Rene Herse Bicycles

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    I think this is the driving force behind this bike. Surly had a slam dunk on their $800 CC and rear rack, they want to replicate that in another niche... the porteur style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    I don't have a problem at all with the rim brakes on the PR. I guess I'm in the minority here. But I'm glad Surly is still going their own way.
    The only issue is eventually they may be going their own way all alone. A lot of really amazing bike companies have hit the scene in the last 8 years and they have proven to have a really good grasp of where the customer base is heading. I'm not so sure that Surly is still there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    The only issue is eventually they may be going their own way all alone.
    But that's exactly how you go your own way, isn't it?

    Out of curiosity, where do you see the customer base heading?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    But that's exactly how you go your own way, isn't it?

    Out of curiosity, where do you see the customer base heading?
    I absolutely agree, for an individual. As a company I think that it may not be the best idea. In going their own way as a company, they should probably be looking at niche markets with great future potential. That paints them as the individualistic company we expect, but keeps their market share intact.

    Please do not get me wrong. I am a die hard Surly fan, to the point that my LBS just laugh when I order another one. I don't actually have a non-QBP bike in the stable and will be purchasing a new Ogre in the next few weeks. Surly's customer service is absolutely incredible. That's worth a lot.

    I love Surly and have since their first 1x1, but I think they often miss out on road offerings. I feel that they have the dirt crowd dialed in. They don't just know what I want, they anticipate it. But for road, cyclocross, randonneuring and gravel, that doesn't seem like their focus. They make a number of bikes that will perform in those roles, but there are better offerings from other companies, some within QBP. All-City is absolutely killing them with the pure street riders and probably also with CX. I love my Nature Boy disc. Maybe that's okay. Each of them will find their place.

    My primary ride of late is my Disc Trucker. I love that bike, but if I were buying today, I would get a All-City Space Horse. I think this new bike is sort of like that. If this is to be a randonneuring bicycle, and many signs point that way, then other companies are doing it better at a similar price point. The only road offering that I would buy from surly at this point would be a Disc Trucker with S&S couplings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    I think this new bike is sort of like that. If this is to be a randonneuring bicycle, and many signs point that way, then other companies are doing it better at a similar price point.
    I agree with a lot of what you say. On the point above, which bikes do you mean?

    I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything, don't misunderstand me, but I am really interested in affordable randonneurs. It's also not a terribly off topic in the Pack Rat thread to talk about the PR's peers in what is a very small class of bikes.

    You mean the Soma Grand Randonneur and the Velo Orange Polyvalent?
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-21-2017 at 02:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    I am really interested in affordable randonneurs. It's also not a terribly off topic in the Pack Rat thread to talk about the PR's peers in what is a very small class of bikes.

    You mean the Soma Grand Randonneur and the Velo Orange Polyvalent?


    Take a look at the Masi Speciale Randonneur 650B for an affordable rando bike.
    I haven't seen one in person but one of my local shops has a full size run of the 2018s in stock so I'll probably check them out over the holiday weekend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMC View Post
    Take a look at the Masi Speciale Randonneur 650B for an affordable rando bike.
    I haven't seen one in person but one of my local shops has a full size run of the 2018s in stock so I'll probably check them out over the holiday weekend.
    The 2017 model was particularly handsome, but they are mid trail, unavailable in a frameset option and I wonder about their weight as compared to the Soma, VO and forthcoming PR. They certainly look the part, tbough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    The 2017 model was particularly handsome, but they are mid trail and I wonder about their weight as compared to the Soma, VO and forthcoming PR, though. They certainly look the part, however.
    The 17 was mid-trail, the 18 per the specs has 65mm of fork rake with 73 degree HTA so it is an actual low trail option if the specs are correct. Probably not close to a lightweight but it is budget.
    I also have a hard time believing the PR is going to be low trail after looking at the photo but I've been wrong before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMC View Post
    The 17 was mid-trail, the 18 per the specs has 65mm of fork rake with 73 degree HTA so it is an actual low trail option if the specs are correct. Probably not close to a lightweight but it is budget.
    I also have a hard time believing the PR is going to be low trail after looking at the photo but I've been wrong before.
    I agree with you about the PR, based on looking at it, but we will have to wait to see numbers. Interesting info on the 2018 model Masi as well, I just had a look. It actually ticks a lot of boxes, with low trail forks and a threadless headset.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-21-2017 at 04:20 PM.

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    I currently own a disc brake road bike and a canti brake road bike...I have owned a semi-custom low trail rando bike with cantis. I'd much rather have a compliant fork and cantis than a super stiff fork and discs.

    I have not found canti brakes lacking despite being 200lbs geared up and living in the PNWet.

    One of the reasons I got the disc road bike was I figured it would be nice to have wheels compatible across the fleet and I was figuring 29er disc wheels would do the trick. But, then came Boost and Super Boost and I realized the chances of every getting 3 or 4 bikes all on the same hub standard so I could swap wheels was unlikely.

    If I suddenly got a big pile of cash I'd sell both my current road bikes and get a another rando-esque rig built [slightly different from my last one] and it would have cantis. Since that's unlikely to happen I'll just ride the rigs I have.
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    Just saw on a Surly social media feed that the little green machine will be introduced to the public this Saturday in Minneapolis at the Winterbike Expo.

    Seems like people can attend a Pack Rat presentation on Saturday afternoon and maybe take one for a ride?

    Please post pics if you go and the embargo is not in full force.

    WINTERBIKE EXPO

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  98. #98
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    Looks like it only goes up to 58? What about the long legged and taller folks?
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

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    bikes | pack_rat | geometry | Pack Rat | Bikes | Surly Bikes | Surly Bikes

    Seems like they have quite a lot of reach. The 56 has a 58cm effective top tube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by helo_rc View Post
    bikes | pack_rat | geometry | Pack Rat | Bikes | Surly Bikes | Surly Bikes

    Seems like they have quite a lot of reach. The 56 has a 58cm effective top tube.
    So does the Straggler. Reach is slightly longer, due to lower stack.

    No interest from me, but probably will sell well to the hip front-loading, basket-carrying crowd. Wish it also had a bit more clearance than 650x48.

  101. #101
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    "Numbers donít lie and experts are great, but it takes curiosity to improve something. Iíd like to caution you about placing too much faith in numbers for certain things - there are some correlations that hold true and shine a light on the mysteries of our universe, but others are little more than a soggy line of security thrown overboard to drag you to shore in lieu of swimming on your own. If you have found meaning in geometric charts and patterns, or staring into crystals, or staying up late eating ice cream and reading science fiction, keep that up, but please give others room to find their own truth. The fact is, two bikes with the same trail can ride very differently and two identical bikes can handle differently for different people. So."

    This deserves to be pinned somewhere. Preferably in a 'must read' thread titled, The Antidote to Internet Experts."
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    One thing is clear from the numbers... I'd have a whole lot of seatpost showing if I got a 58. Even with the sloping TT, I think it would be hard to get the bars where I'd want them. I hope I'm wrong.

    As for low trail. It has it's place but I've seen tons of people doing it "wrong" and running front loads on high trail bikes without perishing. You know, kinda like how some people can stop their bikes even with rim brakes.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

  103. #103
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    I wonder if it comes with the PH Rack.. or if you have to purchase separately..

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojoe View Post
    I wonder if it comes with the PH Rack.. or if you have to purchase separately..
    I do believe it do.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    I do believe it do.
    Spec page for complete does not list the rack, bikes | Pack Rat | Bikes | Surly Bikes | Surly Bikes

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    Disappointed with rim brakes, no way for easy swap between fatter 26 and skinnier 650b.
    Clearance is meh as well, was hoping it would fit 650bx60mm or so. Would probably even go for it if clearance was just a tad bigger.
    Oh well, back to Crust frame I guess (still gonna wait till new All-City Electric Queen (which is most likely HT MTB and Surly Midnight Special (no high hopes though for massive clearance)

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    Disappointed with rim brakes, no way for easy swap between fatter 26 and skinnier 650b.
    Clearance is meh as well, was hoping it would fit 650bx60mm or so. Would probably even go for it if clearance was just a tad bigger.
    Oh well, back to Crust frame I guess (still gonna wait till new All-City Electric Queen (which is most likely HT MTB and Surly Midnight Special (no high hopes though for massive clearance)
    The clearance seems crazy to me. I would expect any company making a 650b rando type bike in 2017 would have clearance for 650x47 WTB Horizon tires and fenders. Still, without disc brakes (with mid trail geometry decided upon by committee), you don't have flexibility of being able to use 700c wheels with narrower tires in addition to the wider road plus wheelset.

    I really wanted to like this bike, but I am having trouble getting excited about it now that I have seen the fork numbers.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 12-02-2017 at 06:14 AM.

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    Are the numbers on the 26Ē version right? The geo seems really wonky. I canít imagine even trying to get the bars up on something with such a low stack height. I think I would have to run 75mm of spacers.

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    I m very curious about how this bike ride. I m already the owner of LHT and CC. I don't need Disc brake on a commuter, rando bike. for me V brake have enough power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scubaklook View Post
    Are the numbers on the 26Ē version right? The geo seems really wonky. I canít imagine even trying to get the bars up on something with such a low stack height. I think I would have to run 75mm of spacers.
    My thoughts exactly. Surly could have overcome the low stack height by using a 1" threaded headset with a height-adjustable quill stem - and turned the bike world upside down. This would further differentiated the bike from other Surlys.

  111. #111
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    Is there a lot of 650b rims wide enough to give 47c a nice profile yet have a rim brake track?? Seems like every bike I've seen WTB Horizons on is rocking disc brakes...

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubaklook View Post
    Are the numbers on the 26Ē version right? The geo seems really wonky. I canít imagine even trying to get the bars up on something with such a low stack height. I think I would have to run 75mm of spacers.
    I feel like I'd need to buy a size up to get the stack I need and then run a flat bar as that would better match the reach of the bigger size.

  113. #113
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    Someone on another discussion board was saying that the 74 degree head tube angle, in combination with the 44mm fork offset, is at the lower end of mid trail and is where Alex Singer bikes, produced after 1964 by Ernest Csuka, ended up. The point being that those bikes were not duds at all.

    While I will not be in a position to own one any time soon, the more I see of this bike, the more I come to like it, despite the perceived flaws that noone, lest of all myself, has been shy in pointing out. With some high-end cantis with Kool Stop Salmon pads, Araya rims (or similar), Compass or Panaracer tires and a Soma or Velo Orange handlebar/stem combo and some VO constructeur style rando racks, I think it would make a nice little randonneur.

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    UK distributor showing frames landing early January over here. Same price point as Cross Check.
    Still a bit lost on this one. What will this bike give that CC / LHT etc don't already?

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by EssexBoyUK View Post
    UK distributor showing frames landing early January over here. Same price point as Cross Check.
    Still a bit lost on this one. What will this bike give that CC / LHT etc don't already?
    Not sure how you are lost there. They make it extremely clear what it gives. It gives improved handling with a load on the fork.

    How improved it actually is, Might be a bit subjective. My upper body strength is fine and I think the Cross-Check, Trucker and Straggler all handle fork loads fairly well already. especially with a low rider pannier.

  116. #116
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    Think front loads: a Pack Rat frame would be a good place to start in building an everyman's version of this custom porteur. A 1x11 drivetrain, a Soma Porteur rack, some Soma fenders, some VO Porteur or Left Bank handlebars and some other bits and pieces later and you would have a nice city bike, ready for a massive bag or basket on the front.

    Surly Pack Rat-coolporteur.jpg

  117. #117
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    oh wow, I'd love to get that rear rack!

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    I know it's the Surly page and all that, but I came across this recently while reading the French 200 magazine. It seems like it would fit a lot of expectations/desires about the Pack Rat;
    Cadres : Cadre Grand Tourisme

  119. #119
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    Universal Cycles apparently has some on the floor. I'm gonna swing by there today and take a gander at the Pack Rat up close. I still hope they do something in larger sizes, likely 700c.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    Spec page for complete does not list the rack, bikes | Pack Rat | Bikes | Surly Bikes | Surly Bikes
    From Surly's product description:

    "...In an effort to jumpstart your front cargo carrying dreams, we include a 24-pack rack on the complete bike version.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by islander View Post
    Is there a lot of 650b rims wide enough to give 47c a nice profile yet have a rim brake track?? Seems like every bike I've seen WTB Horizons on is rocking disc brakes...
    "Plenty" to choose from. Ok, not that many, but enough to not worry about sourcing them.

    HED Belgium (25mm)
    Pacenti (23mm)
    Grand Bois (23mm)
    Velocity - various from 23-25mm+

    And probably others.

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2:01 View Post
    "Plenty" to choose from. Ok, not that many, but enough to not worry about sourcing them.

    HED Belgium (25mm)
    Pacenti (23mm)
    Grand Bois (23mm)
    Velocity - various from 23-25mm+

    And probably others.
    I'd ignored those as I thought they were more suited to 32-35c tires. I mean, if 19mm rims and 23-28c go together, you can see my logic here. Leads me to think that 27mm+ rims would be optimized for the 47c tires. It would seem Surly would agree as their 650b rim brake bike doesn't clear these bike tires...

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by islander View Post
    I'd ignored those as I thought they were more suited to 32-35c tires. I mean, if 19mm rims and 23-28c go together, you can see my logic here. Leads me to think that 27mm+ rims would be optimized for the 47c tires. It would seem Surly would agree as their 650b rim brake bike doesn't clear these bike tires...
    I don't see why they wouldn't work. My MTB tires are 60mm+ that ride on Crest (23mm) to Flow (30mm). I had P35's (35mm) and wider as well. For me, the narrower and lighter rims worked better (emphasis on lighter).

  124. #124
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    700c works for light touring too...but we've got a 650b bike optimized for handling whilst it carries front loads. So my point is that everything should be in the same 'optimized' vein here if you buy into the idea of the PR. Sure, you can put all kinds of tires on 25mm rims, I'm just saying 47c's aren't at their best in this situation...

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    The longer I look at PR the more I like new Polyvalent, ticks almost all boxes, https://velo-orange.com/products/polyvalent
    Two strictly personal things are still keeping me on the fence:
    - Don't like a color one bit
    - Not clear if 650bx2.35 would fit

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    From Surly's product description:

    "...In an effort to jumpstart your front cargo carrying dreams, we include a 24-pack rack on the complete bike version.
    You are right, it does but still not listed in complete specs

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    The longer I look at PR the more I like new Polyvalent, ticks almost all boxes, https://velo-orange.com/products/polyvalent
    Two strictly personal things are still keeping me on the fence:
    - Don't like a color one bit
    - Not clear if 650bx2.35 would fit
    I actually like that color. Reminds me of my Krampus.

    I would think 650bx2.35 wouldn't fit, if they're limiting it to 47mm in that wheel size. No sliding or horizontal dropouts to adjust tire fit, so I'd think that would be tough.

    Overall, it seems like a hodge-podge of specs. 1" threaded (!) headset, 135mm hub, 68mm BB, disc brakes, brazeons up the wazoo. I'm all for retro bikes, but they are over doing it. Front fork with the anything cage mounts on top of the rack.....just seems like a cluster of mess to me......

    I like the wider tire clearance, which I wish Surly would implement on some of their touring/road bikes as well. i.e. LHT - I still don't get why 29 (or 650b) x 2.2" clearance would be hard to do on a bike like that. Fatties don't fit that well...

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    The longer I look at PR the more I like new Polyvalent, ticks almost all boxes, https://velo-orange.com/products/polyvalent
    Two strictly personal things are still keeping me on the fence:
    - Don't like a color one bit
    - Not clear if 650bx2.35 would fit
    The new Piolet color is worse, however. Plus, I don't think the tire clearance will stretch that far, unfortunately.

    To fit tires like that, I have a faux Troll project in the works and have decided to put off a low Trail Randonneur/Porteur mashup bike until I can have one with discs, an unthreaded 1 1/8 steerer and massive tire clearance, which will require a custom frame or an announcement from Surly of a Pack Rat Disc with better tire clearance in the coming years...

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    The new Piolet color is worse, however. Plus, I don't think the tire clearance will stretch that far, unfortunately.

    To fit tires like that, I have a faux Troll project in the works and have decided to put off a low Trail Randonneur/Porteur mashup bike until I can have one with discs, an unthreaded 1 1/8 steerer and massive tire clearance, which will require a custom frame or an announcement from Surly of a Pack Rat Disc with better tire clearance in the coming years...
    I LOVE new Piolet color! I would likely reduce my tire clearance requirement if Poly had Piolet color and just pre-order it now.
    Having said that - 26x2.3 fits with fenders so there is a chance 650Bx2.35 slick will fit without. Worst case scenario I would leave wheelset with 650Bx2.35 on 1x1 and lace new one for 26 and put on rat trap pass.
    But I can't get over the color and if I were to repaint - shipping to Canada, exchange rate, customs and repaint would put it very close to Crust frame

  130. #130
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    I think their hodge podge of specs were all considered, functional choices. Or maybe I just mostly agree with them for that sort of bike. Kind of like the Crust Romanceur, but cheaper and not as cool.

    That being said, I've had two VO bikes (Polyvalent and Camargue), and found the tubing too stout for my taste. Considerably more so than my Surlys.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2:01 View Post
    I actually like that color. Reminds me of my Krampus.

    I would think 650bx2.35 wouldn't fit, if they're limiting it to 47mm in that wheel size. No sliding or horizontal dropouts to adjust tire fit, so I'd think that would be tough.

    Overall, it seems like a hodge-podge of specs. 1" threaded (!) headset, 135mm hub, 68mm BB, disc brakes, brazeons up the wazoo. I'm all for retro bikes, but they are over doing it. Front fork with the anything cage mounts on top of the rack.....just seems like a cluster of mess to me......

    I like the wider tire clearance, which I wish Surly would implement on some of their touring/road bikes as well. i.e. LHT - I still don't get why 29 (or 650b) x 2.2" clearance would be hard to do on a bike like that. Fatties don't fit that well...
    http://www.bikingtoplay.blogspot.com/
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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    I LOVE new Piolet color!
    Ha!

    Rat Trap pass tires would be perfect; they go really well with Elephant NFE frames as well.

    Seen the Breezer Doppler? No frameset option, and more of a mid-trail design, but nonetheless a likable bike.

  132. #132
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    What a weird bike this Pack Rat turned out to be. Canti brakes and skinny 26" tires on a brand new mass produced model in 2017?

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Ha!

    Rat Trap pass tires would be perfect; they go really well with Elephant NFE frames as well.

    Seen the Breezer Doppler? No frameset option, and more of a mid-trail design, but nonetheless a likable bike.
    Yep, saw it but no completes for me, looking for frame only

  134. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2:01 View Post
    I actually like that color. Reminds me of my Krampus.

    I would think 650bx2.35 wouldn't fit, if they're limiting it to 47mm in that wheel size. No sliding or horizontal dropouts to adjust tire fit, so I'd think that would be tough.

    Overall, it seems like a hodge-podge of specs. 1" threaded (!) headset, 135mm hub, 68mm BB, disc brakes, brazeons up the wazoo. I'm all for retro bikes, but they are over doing it. Front fork with the anything cage mounts on top of the rack.....just seems like a cluster of mess to me......

    I like the wider tire clearance, which I wish Surly would implement on some of their touring/road bikes as well. i.e. LHT - I still don't get why 29 (or 650b) x 2.2" clearance would be hard to do on a bike like that. Fatties don't fit that well...
    I have Krampus in Moonlit Swamp and VO is not reminding me of that.
    I don't see hodge-podge - all standard stuff and I don't mind 1" threaded at all. I have 3 or 4 vintage frames with threaded and they are doing just fine, actually much more convenient to raise/lower the stem.
    I don't think anyone expects you to use all braze-ons at once, whatever you need for your build.

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    ...I don't see hodge-podge - all standard stuff and I don't mind 1" threaded at all. I have 3 or 4 vintage frames with threaded and they are doing just fine, actually much more convenient to raise/lower the stem...
    On a bike that may be ridden long distances, it is a major advantage.

    Back tweaking after big miles on your bike? Adjust bar height in a few seconds.

    It's the main thing I miss on modern bikes.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    I have Krampus in Moonlit Swamp and VO is not reminding me of that...
    Perhaps not up close with the metallic paint job of the Surly. But that is a close match...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Surly Pack Rat-krampoly.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    On a bike that may be ridden long distances, it is a major advantage.

    Back tweaking after big miles on your bike? Adjust bar height in a few seconds.

    It's the main thing I miss on modern bikes.
    I've had rando bikes, and you naturally have to set it up for distance riding. If you have to adjust the bar height mid-ride, then you've had it set up wrong to begin with.

    But if you're looking to set up your current bikes with a quill stem, there are several 1.125" threaded headsets available, including King and Ritchey (given that your bike is not so modern that it's got 44mm HT).

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2:01 View Post
    I've had rando bikes, and you naturally have to set it up for distance riding. If you have to adjust the bar height mid-ride, then you've had it set up wrong to begin with...
    I was waiting for a purist to say that, but I'm not a purist...

    Things happen on a ride. That's all I need to know to justify a quill stem.

    Sometimes it's handy to be able to drop your position right down for a headwind, sometimes it's nice to jack it right up for cruising, and other times, a change is as good as a rest.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I was waiting for a purist to say that, but I'm not a purist...

    Things happen on a ride. That's all I need to know to justify a quill stem...
    Oh, I'm no purist! But I can't think of one ride, century, multi-day bikepacking, that I've ever wanted the bars raised higher than I had it originally set up. I have, however, changed stems to adjust fit and with a quill stem, it would've been a pain in the neck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Sometimes it's handy to be able to drop your position right down for a headwind, sometimes it's nice to jack it right up for cruising, and other times, a change is as good as a rest.
    I think that's the whole premise behind the drop bars.

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2:01 View Post
    ...I think that's the whole premise behind the drop bars.
    And sometimes it's nice to be able to lower them even more...

    However, you do it your way, I'll do it mine. (I've done plenty long distance riding, touring etc and I know what works for me, just as you obviously know what works for you.)
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    However, you do it your way, I'll do it mine.
    Nobody was telling you to do any different. Good luck to you.

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    BMC posted some details around MCD frame and said Road Plus will share some details, Sneak A Peak - Monstercross Disc - Black Mountain Cycles
    Looks like MCD is pretty close so hoping Road Plus is on the same timeline

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2:01 View Post
    Nobody was telling you to do any different. Good luck to you.
    Not taken as such. Just pointing out it's nice to have the option to have the adjustment, even if you never use it.

    Meanwhile I was mulling over the use of 650b wheels on the Packrat.

    Around the same period that the 650b randonneur bikes were in their heyday, we preferred 27" wheels on our UK equivalents. We had moved on from our equivalent (26 x 1⅜") which was 590mm instead of 584mm ERD.

    650b was for shorter riders.

    An observation, not a criticism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmrfstar View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Surly could have overcome the low stack height by using a 1" threaded headset with a height-adjustable quill stem - and turned the bike world upside down. This would further differentiated the bike from other Surlys.
    Hello,

    Like you I'm surprised to see the stack height on the Surly chart.
    I know it's not accurate because of the head angle but if I try to measure the stack by the addition of fork length,head tube and bb drop and compare with CrossCheck and LHT I find something between the other two with nearly same effective top tube length.

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    Anyone seen one / ridden one yet?

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    They haven't landed at distributors yet. Could be anywhere from today to June before they do.
    Jason
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    UK distributor has the smaller sizes as in stock on their website so.assumed they were already out there in the US

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    Warming to the front loader idea. Have been looking in to it and probably going to experiment on the LHT.

    What I can't get my head round is why go rim brake on 650b? Looking around you are limited to probably 4 or 5 rim choices if building from frameset. Also if you want to run tubeless (currently in vogue around these parts) there is a choice of only 2 rim braked tubeless ready rims available as far as I can see. Piacenti Brevet and Velocity A23s. Discs would have offered a much wider choice.

  149. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by EssexBoyUK View Post
    Warming to the front loader idea. Have been looking in to it and probably going to experiment on the LHT.
    I tried that ^^ combo and didn't enjoy it on my LHT. The steering geo is not conducive to a PR style rack. The wheel wants to flop to either side so you have to maintain a death grip on the bars relative to a more conventional load.

    Give it a shot to see for yourself, but borrow a rack to save $$ incase you don't like it.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I tried that ^^ combo and didn't enjoy it on my LHT. The steering geo is not conducive to a PR style rack. The wheel wants to flop to either side so you have to maintain a death grip on the bars relative to a more conventional load.

    Give it a shot to see for yourself, but borrow a rack to save $$ incase you don't like it.
    Thanks for the information Vik. I was thinking bout getting a rack with top platform and pannier lowriders for a bit of versatility. Something like a Specialized Pizza rack. Would probably only use the platform for light commuting loads (change of clothes, lunch etc.) and brevet duties so hopefully wouldn't compromise handling too much.

  151. #151
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    Gorilla Monsoon, https://www.instagram.com/p/Be0kDt_jtMh/
    Pack Rat with through axles or Midnight Special's brother from another mother?

  152. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    Gorilla Monsoon, https://www.instagram.com/p/Be0kDt_jtMh/
    Pack Rat with through axles or Midnight Special's brother from another mother?
    I think it's going to be a 650b bike with clearance for 2.25 tires, disc, and triple bosses on the fork--an all road touring machine. I came across a photo on AC's Flickr page of a bike like that a long while back and asked a question about it. They never responded and removed the picture. It's the bike I had hoped the Pack Rat would be. Then again, had the Pack Rat been made in a 60cm size I would have probably purchased a frame by now and put it together with parts I have laying around. Who knows, maybe Surly will surprise us at Frost Bike next week.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

  153. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfltroll View Post
    I think it's going to be a 650b bike with clearance for 2.25 tires, disc, and triple bosses on the fork--an all road touring machine. I came across a photo on AC's Flickr page of a bike like that a long while back and asked a question about it. They never responded and removed the picture. It's the bike I had hoped the Pack Rat would be. Then again, had the Pack Rat been made in a 60cm size I would have probably purchased a frame by now and put it together with parts I have laying around. Who knows, maybe Surly will surprise us at Frost Bike next week.
    The 650B (not plus) version of the Velo Orange Piolet perhaps?

    I'll be at Frostbike next week, I'm hopeful for the all the mysteries to be revealed!
    Jason
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  154. #154
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  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
    Looks rad. Hopefully the geometry will work for me. I imagine it'll be a little more spendy than a Surly.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

  156. #156
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    Anybody got one or seen one yet?

  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by EssexBoyUK View Post
    Anybody got one or seen one yet?
    I've seen it. It's a nice looking bike. Both the ones I've seen were in shops, standard builds. They don't make them in my size and the tire clearance isn't that spectacular so the PR doesn't really hold interest for me.

    Now the BFD I saw parked at the grocery the other day... that was something to see.
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

  158. #158
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    I saw one at Frostbike and thought it was pretty "meh" when up against the Midnight Special. QBP says they won't be out until June! This bike will be a flop, wait to pick up on closeout next year. It had potential, but it's about 5 years too late I think.
    Jason
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  159. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I currently own a disc brake road bike and a canti brake road bike...I have owned a semi-custom low trail rando bike with cantis. I'd much rather have a compliant fork and cantis than a super stiff fork and discs.

    I have not found canti brakes lacking despite being 200lbs geared up and living in the PNWet.

    One of the reasons I got the disc road bike was I figured it would be nice to have wheels compatible across the fleet and I was figuring 29er disc wheels would do the trick. But, then came Boost and Super Boost and I realized the chances of every getting 3 or 4 bikes all on the same hub standard so I could swap wheels was unlikely.

    If I suddenly got a big pile of cash I'd sell both my current road bikes and get a another rando-esque rig built [slightly different from my last one] and it would have cantis. Since that's unlikely to happen I'll just ride the rigs I have.
    Tradition surely dies hard.

    My only rim brake bike is hanging in my shop, I seldom ride it, and I will never own another rim brake bike again as long as I live.

    Ten years from now, people will have forgotten rim brake bikes ever existed.

  160. #160
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    Anyone riding one yet? I just caught up with the Path Less Pedalled review.

  161. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Anyone riding one yet? I just caught up with the Path Less Pedalled review.
    Thinking about it. Been riding 650b on the LHT the last few months. Wheels are nice but still feels like riding a Trucker i.e. stiff, uninspiring and speed sapping when unloaded.
    Hoping the PR will have a bit more of a responsive ride and with the canti's the frame and forks might be a little less stiff than disc braked offerings. Also pretty good price point compared to MS, VO Polyvalent etc. I have all necessary parts to build one up including a nice set of Paul Neo Retros, some nice Rivendell DT shifters and just bought an Ostrich rando front bag as well which would go perfectly.
    Not a lot of info out there though. Path Less Pedalled review doesn't give much away. There is a page on the 650b Google group and a couple of people have them and like them. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...0b/OWUUjjdDVwE
    Also there a guy on Facebook called Barry (look up bike rides with Barry) riding around Europe on one.
    Have a cheeky bid on Fleabay on a Pacer frame at the moment. If that falls through I'll be ordering a PR frame when I get back from vacation in a couple of weeks.

  162. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Anyone riding one yet? I just caught up with the Path Less Pedalled review.
    ive been on one since early june... also seen my LBS building up a few.. so they are around.

    been using it as a commuter, errander, explorer... its a tank and can haul a lot.. the tires are comfy and can handle bumps or slight offroading.. this bike is great

    Surly Pack Rat-20180805_111339.jpgSurly Pack Rat-20180805_111509.jpgSurly Pack Rat-20180805_111625.jpg

  163. #163
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    OK I'll own up. I've also bought a Pack Rat. Frameset arrived last week. Will be a parts bin build with wheels from my 650b LHT experiment (LHT returns to 26"). Wheels and bars fitted at the weekend. Had to use a stack of spacers to get the bars up to where I wanted them. WTB Byways 27.5 x 47mm comfortably fit with guards so road plus no problem. Just need to clean up my drivetrain bits and add cables and we're away.

    By my unscientific estimation, myself and typingofthedead are only two of 6 builds I have found on various sites and FB pages. Surely there must be more PR's out there????

  164. #164
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    First Hundred Miles on the Pack Rat

    So here it is. Built from parts bin and 650b wheels from my LHT experiment. The only bike I can compare it to is the LHT so here goes.

    Originally when the PR was released Surly said that tyre clearance was 42mm. It is a true road plus frame and easily accepts the WTB Byways I had lying around. Easily 6-7mm clearance on the chainstays and acres between fork crown and seatstay bridge. This also means plenty of room for guards. The ride feels very smooth as you would expect with the bigger tyres and combined with the frame soaks up any road chatter. Combined with a fairly relaxed riding position it feels a really comfortable ride.
    I've only rode it briefly without any luggage but handling feels quick when naked. Put a bag on the front and this dampens the steering quite a bit making for quite smooth and predictable handling. Out back with no load, shorter stays and thinner tubing the rear end feels very light and when climbing and accelerating the bike picks up very easily.
    What I don't like. I had to use a ridiculous amount of spacers to get the bars up to where I wanted them. Even with an aggressively low riding position you would need 6-8 cm of spacers. On a 58cm frame with US size 12 feet I am getting a couple of mm toe overlap and can only fit a smaller 500ml bottle in the lower bottle cage. This can probably be fixed with smaller 42mm tyres and adjusting the front guard which I will probably do eventually.
    Apart from slightly smaller tyres I think the only thing I am going to change is the front chain ring from 50t to 48t for better chainline and cassette spread.
    I built this bike as a long distance road bike and for that I think it is going to be a winner. It is slightly faster than the LHT but not a lot, maybe 2-3 kph but it is very comfortable.
    Word of the week is 'ACE'.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Surly Pack Rat-img_20181012_073909.jpg  

    Surly Pack Rat-img_20181012_073856.jpg  

    Surly Pack Rat-img_20181012_073848.jpg  


  165. #165
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    Surly Pack Rat-surly_packrat_my19_30503_001-930x390.jpg

    Thoughts on the new Haze Gray color?

  166. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Surly_PackRat_MY19_30503_001-930x390.jpg 
Views:	744 
Size:	103.0 KB 
ID:	1225618

    Thoughts on the new Haze Gray color?
    Whilst I am sick of the major bike manufacturers releasing so many bikes in black and/or grey, Surly to their credit has heaps of different colour options.

    But nonetheless I am now normally uninterested in any more grey bikes, but I will admit that this Haze Grey is one of the better looking shades of grey I have seen, certainly much better than the Grey on the Disc Trucker.

    I'm surprised they have already changed the colour though, has the bike even been out for 12 months yet?

  167. #167
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    i like the look of the new one.. i own the original.. interesting that it has the smaller rack, and tan walled tires

  168. #168
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    It's about 1 year. It used to be 2 year stretches of the same color, but they have been changing every 12 months or so in recent times. I didn't notice the 6 pack rack change, but the new tires look good. I wonder if they will release a disc brake Disco Rat in a couple of years?
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-21-2018 at 12:06 AM.

  169. #169
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    some more pack rat love

    wanted to share a pack rat xmas time picture that had all the old ladies hootin and hollerin at my tree

    Surly Pack Rat-20190116_185725.jpg

  170. #170
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    Has anyone attempted to fit 26" wheels to a size 56 frame?

    Why may you ask? Because I'm cheap and have zero interest in buying a 650b rim brake wheelset. I already have all the parts to set up a PR single speed, just no wheelset.

  171. #171
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    Servus!

    Quick question to verify tyre clearance: From Surly's page I understood there is clearance for 650b with 47mm width *including* fenders/mudguards. So I can expect to mount some Compass Switchback Hills (27.5x48) with some Honjo fenders to a Pack Rat? Can someone please confirm?

    Thanks!
    Marc

  172. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by spankbomb View Post
    Has anyone attempted to fit 26" wheels to a size 56 frame?
    I assume this will not work, as the brake pads will not correctly line up with the rims.

  173. #173
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    Just building up a Pack Rat. First of all - 47mm tyres with correctly sized fenders do not work - I will need to downsize to approx. 42mm.

    Now I have a question... Bike is not finished yet, but the first test ride revealed brake squeal and shudder on the front. Built it with Tektro CR-720 brakes and KoolStop Dual Compound. Toed in. I assumed the massive Surly steel fork would not flex that much?! Any tips? The Surly complete comes with CR-720, so I assumed this brake would be a safe bet?

    Thanks!
    Marc

    P.S.: Pictures will follow, once the rat is complete

  174. #174
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    Caseonline. You sure about the fenders? I have Bluemels Matt 53 on my Rat and have mounted a set of WTB Byways and Panaracer Gravel King 47's no problem. Pictures up thread leaning against the Maldon road sign. I have a set of Pacenti Brevet rims on mine which have internal rim width of 19mm.

  175. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by EssexBoyUK View Post
    Caseonline. You sure about the fenders? I have Bluemels Matt 53 on my Rat and have mounted a set of WTB Byways and Panaracer Gravel King 47's no problem. Pictures up thread leaning against the Maldon road sign. I have a set of Pacenti Brevet rims on mine which have internal rim width of 19mm.
    Hi! Finally some action in this thread...

    No, I am not sure about clearance. I have Compass / Rene Hersť Switchback Hills on Ryde ZAC421. These rims are fairly wide, with an inner width of 21mm. But I was considering Honjo XL Fenders, 62mm wide. Will try Babyshoe Pass tyres (42mm) now, with Honjo Std (62mm, but different shape). Let's see...

    I fumbled on the bar tape. Argh... Well, bar tape is a consumable, right?

    Cheers,
    Marc

  176. #176
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    Not very much love for this bike! I still kinda want one though. Has anyone towed a child trailer with one, how does it handle? Also curious how it would be on a dirt road tour, like forest service roads. I feel like my mountain bike isnít really necessary for most of the riding I do but I also donít want to get beat up too bad! Was curious how some 47s ride on semi rocky dirt roads. Thanks for any thoughts!

  177. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFrahm View Post
    Not very much love for this bike! I still kinda want one though. Has anyone towed a child trailer with one, how does it handle? Also curious how it would be on a dirt road tour, like forest service roads. I feel like my mountain bike isnít really necessary for most of the riding I do but I also donít want to get beat up too bad! Was curious how some 47s ride on semi rocky dirt roads. Thanks for any thoughts!
    ive had this bike since june of 2018. sometimes i catch myself thinking that its an odd bike. no disc breaks. interesting geometry that is a bit aggressive, which sort of clashes with the front load and endurance aspects. it can fit 2.2'' mtb tires. the lack of love is likely due to its semi strange fit in the world of modern offerings.. that said i love this bike

    never done a child tow.. i do all sorts of hauling (groceries, soil, etc) on it, and it handles load like a champ. also handles offroad well, and if you threw on some 2'' mtb tires it would probably do what you need and be a badass bike camping rig

  178. #178
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    T
    Quote Originally Posted by typingofthedead View Post
    ive had this bike since june of 2018. sometimes i catch myself thinking that its an odd bike. no disc breaks. interesting geometry that is a bit aggressive, which sort of clashes with the front load and endurance aspects. it can fit 2.2'' mtb tires. the lack of love is likely due to its semi strange fit in the world of modern offerings.. that said i love this bike

    never done a child tow.. i do all sorts of hauling (groceries, soil, etc) on it, and it handles load like a champ. also handles offroad well, and if you threw on some 2'' mtb tires it would probably do what you need and be a badass bike camping rig
    Somehow missed this reply! Thanks for talking the time. Hopefully by the time I get a chance to go ride one they will still be there! They are old stock so possibly even get a great deal on them. Or just the frame and build it up. Wish the shop was t so far away...

  179. #179
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    Anyone selling a 58cm frameset?

  180. #180
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    The stack height given by Surly on their website is wrong.
    You can refer to this page.

    https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geo...4b070014b4a8a8,

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