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  1. #1
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    2018 new models any news yet?

    How long do we have to wait? I'm looking see some info on the Pacer replacement.
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    I think they might be having supply issues. You can't even get a new 2017 Karate Monkey until late May of 2018 at this point. New Disc Truckers and Steamrollers just came out a week or two ago, and are in stock. So if they have news, it'll probably be withheld until products are actually in hand.
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  3. #3
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    That could be forever. I was under the impression the problems were fixed.
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    QBP once announced that they were proudly going to open their own factory in America, I don't remember the year, though I do remember it was said while they still had distribution set up in Ogden, Utah.

    Then they buried that announcement and hoped everyone would forget. I don't know what Q' is on right now. The geo on the Krampus and Monkey is pretty fantastic right now. But I don't have many people who will buy them because of the downgraded drop outs. All the Surly fan customers I know want their MDS chips back.

    And the constantly being out of bikes is driving those same customers to other brands. I don't work for a stocking dealer, but we sure don't mind ordering Surlys for people, and do it regularly. But it seems to be mostly just LHTs and a few Cross Checks we sell at this point. If the Krampus had MDS chips, I can think of at least three people off the top of my head who would buy it. 4 if I include myself. MDS sliders on the current Krampus would be a Trek Stache killer.

  5. #5
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    IN a bid to be more profitable I recall Surly severing a relationship with a third party vendor. Their job was an intermediary between Surly and their various factories. Once they muscled out the middle man things did not go as smoothly as Surly imagined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    IN a bid to be more profitable I recall Surly severing a relationship with a third party vendor. Their job was an intermediary between Surly and their various factories. Once they muscled out the middle man things did not go as smoothly as Surly imagined.
    No, they didn't, but market forces were also at work there. The fat bike bubble popped, with Surly still heavily invested, leading to a fat bike fire sale and a serious fat trimming exercise.

    They are coming back, but they seem to be a bit behind the eight ball in some ways. Hopefully the new 2018 models will get some customers back from the likes of Crust and Elephant with the Pack Rat, while the MidNight Special may offer an alternative to bikes like the Niner RLT.

    I think the main things to look for will be the use of a new type of steel alloy in the all road Pacer replacement, the midnight special, as it will be around US$900 for the frameset. There has to be something special going on with it at that price point.

    The other one will be the extent of fork rake in the pack rat. Low trail forks have never gone well with disc brakes, due to braking force, something elephant found with the NFE. I will be really interested to see what the fork crown looks like on the PR.

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    I'm really anxious for those new models. I love my 2015 Monkey, and I like parts of my Straggler. I want more wins in Surlys corner, I'm rooting for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Low trail forks have never gone well with disc brakes, due to braking force, something elephant found with the NFE. I will be really interested to see what the fork crown looks like on the PR.
    So it may be possible that the Pack Rat is a rim brake bike... Perhaps the idea will be to put it together with inexpensive parts of stuff laying around for use as a beater town bike?
    All good expeditions should be simple in concept, difficult in their execution and satisfying to remember--Alastair Humphreys

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    No, they didn't, but market forces were also at work there. The fat bike bubble popped, with Surly still heavily invested, leading to a fat bike fire sale and a serious fat trimming exercise.

    They are coming back, but they seem to be a bit behind the eight ball in some ways. Hopefully the new 2018 models will get some customers back from the likes of Crust and Elephant with the Pack Rat, while the MidNight Special may offer an alternative to bikes like the Niner RLT.

    I think the main things to look for will be the use of a new type of steel alloy in the all road Pacer replacement, the midnight special, as it will be around US$900 for the frameset. There has to be something special going on with it at that price point.

    The other one will be the extent of fork rake in the pack rat. Low trail forks have never gone well with disc brakes, due to braking force, something elephant found with the NFE. I will be really interested to see what the fork crown looks like on the PR.
    A $900 frame set is encroaching on US made prices. A Gunnar isn't much less than that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    A $900 frame set is encroaching on US made prices. A Gunnar isn't much less than that.
    Hence the anticipation. New alloy? Surly have only ever used 4130 Cromolly, so it will be interesting to see if they move in a new direction with this frame, potentially paving the way for other Surlys with different steel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Hence the anticipation. New alloy? Surly have only ever used 4130 Cromolly, so it will be interesting to see if they move in a new direction with this frame, potentially paving the way for other Surlys with different steel.
    IMO Surly should just stick to simple, affordable, 4130 frames. Very much a case of 'if it ain't broke...'

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    Quote Originally Posted by subversion View Post
    IMO Surly should just stick to simple, affordable, 4130 frames. Very much a case of 'if it ain't broke...'
    Agreed! People buy them for what they are anyway.


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    As people hyperventilate over the "new next", I will ride my sparkly green krampus over to my LBS and pick up parts for my new Moonlander frame......

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    Quote Originally Posted by subversion View Post
    IMO Surly should just stick to simple, affordable, 4130 frames. Very much a case of 'if it ain't broke...'
    +1


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    Quote Originally Posted by subversion View Post
    IMO Surly should just stick to simple, affordable, 4130 frames. Very much a case of 'if it ain't broke...'
    I don't disagree but if I could have a little nicer frame (mid level steel a-la Reynolds 631/725 etc.) that weighed a little less and rode a little nicer and cost a little more, I'd be very interested.

    The two genres I'd be most interested in would be a 29/29+ hardtail or a Monstercross setup.

    I always look forward to what Surly's going to do next, I only wish they could do it faster.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Hence the anticipation. New alloy? Surly have only ever used 4130 Cromolly, so it will be interesting to see if they move in a new direction with this frame, potentially paving the way for other Surlys with different steel.
    I don't believe Surly's customer needs or wants a higher end bike. Their niche has always been an affordable frame you could build up using parts you had lying around. Nobody is going to spend close to a grand on a frame and use components in their parts bin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    I don't believe Surly's customer needs or wants a higher end bike. Their niche has always been an affordable frame you could build up using parts you had lying around. Nobody is going to spend close to a grand on a frame and use components in their parts bin.
    That's probably correct, but correct in the US context. If you follow Blue Lug, the Japanese bike shop chain, on Facebook or Instagram, you can see that Surlys are viewed differently in different markets. I think Blue Lug, and others, would welcome a high end Surly with open arms. With import duties and shipping costs factored in, Surly frames and completes run at about 20-25% more than US prices in some other markets, like Korea, where I'm based.

    I agree that 800-900 dollars is a massive stretch for a frame for a parts bin bike, so while I am watching the new models with a lot of interest, I really hope we're wrong about the pricing.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Hence the anticipation. New alloy? Surly have only ever used 4130 Cromolly, so it will be interesting to see if they move in a new direction with this frame, potentially paving the way for other Surlys with different steel.
    Surly used Reynolds some time ago, my buddy has Cross Check in Reynolds
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Hence the anticipation. New alloy? Surly have only ever used 4130 Cromolly, so it will be interesting to see if they move in a new direction with this frame, potentially paving the way for other Surlys with different steel.
    Yes but Surly has firmly established themselves as a budget bike company. Going up in quality in a very price driven market is suicide. When Honda, Toyota and Nissan all went upscale they started new companies. No one was going to buy a Honda at BMW prides regardless of how good it was. The same holds true for Surly.
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    I don't think anyone was implying that Surly was intending to change up it's entire business model. Offering a select few higher end frames would broaden their horizons and probably draw the interest of people who would otherwise be looking elsewhere.

    My All-City is a good example. They offer the Nature boy and Macho man (and maybe a couple others?) in both 4130 and Reynolds 853. I think there's a market for both. Plenty of manufacturers do the same thing.
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    That's interesting. What grade was the steel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    Yes but Surly has firmly established themselves as a budget bike company. Going up in quality in a very price driven market is suicide. When Honda, Toyota and Nissan all went upscale they started new companies. No one was going to buy a Honda at BMW prides regardless of how good it was. The same holds true for Surly.
    Okay, but that's the US market. I get what you are saying about the US, but like I say above, in many other markets they already have a premium price tag and are not seen as a budget option. Customers in other markets may be more accepting of a slightly higher priced Surly, because they are already considerably expensive.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    That's interesting. What grade was the steel?
    If you're talking about the cc it was the early models with a 1" fork and they were 631.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    If you're talking about the cc it was the early models with a 1" fork and they were 631.
    They did 631 in 1 1/8 as well, for main triangle http://surlybikes.com/uploads/downlo...CheckFrame.pdf
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  25. #25
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    Still no word on the Pack Rat, the MidNight Special or the Joker. Maybe they're holding off until Frostbike2018?

    2018 new models any news yet?-spankthemonkey.png
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-19-2017 at 07:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    Hence the anticipation. New alloy? Surly have only ever used 4130 Cromolly, so it will be interesting to see if they move in a new direction with this frame, potentially paving the way for other Surlys with different steel.
    Surly has done amazing things with 4130.

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    If they do another unicycle I will buy it. Just saying. . . PLEASE SURLY I CAN'T FIND A CONUNDRUM ANYWHERE!


    Also looking forward to new news though on any of the other bikes/updates. I'm in a pretty happy place with my bikes right now, but i could be talked into spending money . . .

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusheleven View Post
    If they do another unicycle I will buy it. Just saying. . . PLEASE SURLY I CAN'T FIND A CONUNDRUM ANYWHERE!


    Also looking forward to new news though on any of the other bikes/updates. I'm in a pretty happy place with my bikes right now, but i could be talked into spending money . . .
    Me too but I want another just because.
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    I'm excited for this bike. I need a new commuter bike with racks and fenders. Not sure if this or a CC will end up in my garage.
    Last edited by Rylan570; 11-14-2017 at 01:02 PM.

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    You were right, it's a rim brake bike, but it has much higher trail than I thought it would, if it had rim brakes.

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    2018 new models any news yet?-23519246_10155857529162556_4999431332778621476_n.jpg
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-15-2017 at 08:28 PM.

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    What size does it go up to? Please say 60cm? If so, still with 650b? It's like the love child of a CC and an LHT.

    Any idea about availability?
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    Tire clearance?
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    I wonder what they did with the tubing. BQ really focuses on thinwall, small diameter steel tubing, while Surlys tend to be a little more stout.

    I'd love to see a manufacturer with the guts to spec a 1" top tube, but I don't think any modern bikes do that. But it's a good way to get a flexible frame without going scary thin on the wall thickness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    I wonder what they did with the tubing. BQ really focuses on thinwall, small diameter steel tubing, while Surlys tend to be a little more stout.
    That's why I was careful to specify "mass market." I agree with you; I'm keen to see what tubing was used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    I don't disagree but if I could have a little nicer frame (mid level steel a-la Reynolds 631/725 etc.) that weighed a little less and rode a little nicer and cost a little more, I'd be very interested.

    The two genres I'd be most interested in would be a 29/29+ hardtail or a Monstercross setup.

    I always look forward to what Surly's going to do next, I only wish they could do it faster.
    You mean like my 10+ year old KM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDKL45 View Post
    That's why I was careful to specify "mass market." I agree with you; I'm keen to see what tubing was used.
    4130, Natch

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    Quote Originally Posted by ErvSpanks View Post
    4130, Natch
    And that will be fine for a mass market randonneur style bike like this.

    This blog post (In defense of Surly) illustrates it perfectly. We can't all have a Boulder Cycles Rene Herse 650B randonneur, and I'm sure many do not actually need or want one as their first foray into 650B low trail territory.

    Having an affordable bike like this will definitely help those who want to try a low trail bike but do not want to jump into the market wallet first.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-15-2017 at 08:47 PM.

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    My point was, if they made it with a 25.4 OD top tube, they could use normal 4130 9/6/9 wall thickness, and still give it a nice flexible feel. Cheap and tough. But I don't think most ordinary consumers would understand why the top tube was so skinny.
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    Cool bike.

    Solves the problem of I want a trucker, but i'm really bad at taking care of my derailleur and need a SS bail out option.

    I also like the front load idea, though I've never tried it. It just seems like for day trips it would provide easy access to a moderate load carry capacity. The tallish looking headtube seems nice too, but it is hard to tell for sure because there still seems to be a lot of Seat to Hbar drop.

    I don't like that it doesn't have disc brakes. One of the bigger reasons that I sold my CC. I thought it would be fine with canti's and after a few weeks decided that I needed v brakes and a few months after that decided that I liked to stop in the rain and mud and that my 1x1 was getting a lot more ride time than the CC was. . . ramble over.

    Almost. . . Also, that the rear brake cable is top routed and has an exposed cable. . . WHY? Now running a tank bag or frame bag is harder to deal with. Fairly minor quibble but it bugged me on the CC too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusheleven View Post
    I also like the front load idea, though I've never tried it. It just seems like for day trips it would provide easy access to a moderate load carry capacity.
    I would really like to have one set up with the 24-pack porteurhouse bag and bright red Rain Dog fenders from Soma to ride brevets on, it would go some way to assuaging my Rene Herse fetish. The PR would make a lovely little randonneur/credit card tourer with some Kool Stop Salmon brake pads for long descents and a pair of Nitto Albatross bars.
    Last edited by PDKL45; 11-16-2017 at 02:32 AM.

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    delete
    Last edited by ak-rider; 01-09-2018 at 10:18 PM.

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    There's a tag to that post that says bikesthathaul. I think this was a reference to the PR. I hope they do re-release the Pugs and Moonlander. The Pugs is iconic and so a part of Surly. Maybe they'll do something with the dropouts like Crust did with the Scapegoat so it doesn't have to have the offset wheel.
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    I could see the Pugs and Moonie getting the Troll/Ogre treatment with a more touring oriented, upright, non-suspension corrected geometry. And I could see myself wanting another Pugsley if that was the case. Leave the offset, it has worked fine for years!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    I could see the Pugs and Moonie getting the Troll/Ogre treatment with a more touring oriented, upright, non-suspension corrected geometry. And I could see myself wanting another Pugsley if that was the case. Leave the offset, it has worked fine for years!
    Why you would have the same bike a second time?? They have enough touring bike in the Surly catalog.
    A Pugsley without the offset is not a Pugsley.
    Me i could see the new Pugs with 44mm headtube, more slack and a geometry more actual for trail riding. A real go any trail bike with short chainstay.
    Maybe a litle bit redondant with the Wednesday

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalpine View Post
    Why you would have the same bike a second time??
    My wife asks me that all the time when I mention buying another Karate Monkey or Steamroller! The answer is, because I miss them dammit and I shouldn't have sold them!

    And the Wednesday is the my personal benchmark for fatbike perfection, no matter what they or anyone else does, it will be tough to outdo that bike IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalpine View Post
    ...A Pugsley without the offset is not a Pugsley...
    And more importantly removes the option to use an inexpensive hub gear like the Alfine.

    I don't want a derailleur on a bike that will go the places a Pug will go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    My wife asks me that all the time when I mention buying another Karate Monkey or Steamroller! The answer is, because I miss them dammit and I shouldn't have sold them!

    And the Wednesday is the my personal benchmark for fatbike perfection, no matter what they or anyone else does, it will be tough to outdo that bike IMHO.
    What do you like better about the Wednesday vs the ICT?
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  49. #49
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    It sure sounds like a lot of good bikes are waiting to be launched.
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalpine View Post
    ...Me i could see the new Pugs with 44mm headtube, more slack and a geometry more actual for trail riding. A real go any trail bike with short chainstay....
    I think slackening the Pug will cause its handling to deteriorate for real go anywhere type riding. The only reason to slacken its HA would be to fit a suspension fork, and that again is a detracting feature for go anywhere riding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I think slackening the Pug will cause its handling to deteriorate for real go anywhere type riding. The only reason to slacken its HA would be to fit a suspension fork, and that again is a detracting feature for go anywhere riding.
    Think you that the Wednesday is not an anywhere riding bike?
    For sure i'm completely for a trail oriented bike
    Maybe i should just sell my Pugs and buy a new more fat frendly trail bike or keep my pugs and ad one bike at my stable.

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    The Pug is of course iconic, but at this point in the evolution of fat bikes, I don't really understand what "updating" it would achieve, that isn't already available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    The Pug is of course iconic, but at this point in the evolution of fat bikes, I don't really understand what "updating" it would achieve, that isn't already available.
    It could be a 10th years anniversary special edition with a different steel and an upgrade geometry. I find the idea very interesting, but for me there are three solutions:
    - 1°oriented touring bike like the ogre or ECR
    - 2°Oriented trail karate Monkey and Krampus but there is already the Wednesday
    - 3° something in beetwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by cassa89 View Post
    What do you like better about the Wednesday vs the ICT?
    The major difference for me is the short chainstays and threaded BB. Two things that are important to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalpine View Post
    It could be a 10th years anniversary special edition with a different steel and an upgrade geometry. I find the idea very interesting, but for me there are three solutions:
    - 1°oriented touring bike like the ogre or ECR
    - 2°Oriented trail karate Monkey and Krampus but there is already the Wednesday
    - 3° something in beetwin
    Yeah....I have a hard time imagining Surly getting into higher end steels, for the reasons outlined above.

    As for being more "touring oriented," the Pugs is already 70º HTA/72º STA (basically the same as the ECR) - how much more upright do you really need to be? Not trying to be argumentative here (ok, maybe somewhat...) but I just don't get the point of a fat bike with really upright, touring geometry. They're intended to be omni-terra machines - meant for going where other bikes don't/can't, incl. rough terrain, and I don't see how being super upright really helps that in any way.

    Beyond that, when the Pugs came out, a 4" tire was as big as you could go. At the time, it opened up all sorts of new opportunities. Now, however, I see no reason to buy a fattie that limits you to a 4" tire - if you're truly using the bike for the situations it's intended for. In loose/deep snow and sand, the added volume of a 5" tire can make a huge difference. With a bike that can accommodate 5", you always have the option to run something smaller if conditions don't require a tire that big, but you don't have that flexibility with a bike limited to a 4" tire.

    The ICT - one Surly fattie to rule them all. It will do everything the Pugs will do, and so much more, including fully-loaded multi-day touring, while being much more fun/manageable when the conditions get rough. The difference between the Pugs and the ICT illustrates how far fat bike design has come in a decade - for the better, imo.

    But if it's true that the Pugs and Moonlander are getting updated, I'll be curious to see what shape they take. Personally, I think there's a fair bit of redundancy in Surly's fat offerings already, and if they're going to keep a longer-wheelbase, more upright fat bike in the lineup, it's should probably just be the Moonlander rather than the Pugs, nostalgia aside.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalpine View Post
    Think you that the Wednesday is not an anywhere riding bike?...
    I'm sure it's perfectly capable on the beaten path.

    However it has the disadvantage that it cannot take a hubgear* and as far as I'm concerned a derailleur disqualifies a bike as a go anywhere bike.

    *Unless you can afford a Rohloff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    ...if they're going to keep a longer-wheelbase, more upright fat bike in the lineup, it's should probably just be the Moonlander rather than the Pugs, nostalgia aside.
    I agree with this. I'd happily change from a Pug to a Moonie for the extra width available.
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    On a not-totally-unrelated note, I've noticed these appearing without much fanfare;
    Handlebars | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruise Willies View Post
    On a not-totally-unrelated note, I've noticed these appearing without much fanfare;
    Handlebars | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes
    VO came out with their version a couple of months ago.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruise Willies View Post
    On a not-totally-unrelated note, I've noticed these appearing without much fanfare;
    Handlebars | Parts and Accessories | Surly Bikes
    Glad I'm not the only one who noticed & liked these... I was trying to find a set-up like this a year or two ago... Anyway re: VO version - only 680mm, Surly Version: 820mm.

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    Hoping for a new 1x1 in February at Frostbike. 44 Headtube Please.

    Would like a Thru Axle Cross Bike w/ Disc Brakes. or see the Steamroller with Canti Mounts or disc mounts
    FGCX PLEASE lol know its not going to happen. . .

    And still waiting on another Unicycle.

    Also would like the MDS Chips back, but I don't see that happening.

  61. #61
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    How about a 27+, 135 spaced, offset frame 44mm head tube Pugs/Moonie...
    Or, my favorite- a 5" tired tandem unicycle.

  62. #62
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    If was just thinking about this post. And lo and behold someone brought it back. Now that the Pacer went away I'm curious to see what if anything will take its place. The Straggler is a work in progress IMO. Surly got it right the first time with the LHT and Cross Check. Let's see if they can come up with another winner for the road crowd.
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

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    The Straggler would be perfect.

    If it had MDS chips and Cross Check geo. And maybe fancier tubes.

    The UNREPLACEABLE hangers on their current mountain bikes are the only reason I haven't bought one. I dig the current geo recipe on the Krampus.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    The Straggler would be perfect.

    If it had MDS chips and Cross Check geo. And maybe fancier tubes.

    The UNREPLACEABLE hangers on their current mountain bikes are the only reason I haven't bought one. I dig the current geo recipe on the Krampus.
    I was under the impression it had cc geometry.
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    I was under the impression it had cc geometry.
    No, It's longer and lower. same HTA and STA, but a lot of tiny differences add up to a bike that feels more stable at speeds, but takes away some of that 'cross playfulness the 'check is known for.

    Cross check was never a particularly good cross racer, but the cross DNA made if funner for us commuters that liked to pretend we were fast.

    It also rides nicer than the Straggler because they don't have to stiffen the fork/frame for a disc brake.

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    I haven't ridden the Straggler, but I'm on a 50 cm Disc Trucker and I wonder if I could even fit on the same size Straggler 650b. I'd probably need to size down! I am banned from purchasing another bike until at least 2019, so I guess I have plenty of time to think about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    The UNREPLACEABLE hangers on their current mountain bikes are the only reason I haven't bought one. I dig the current geo recipe on the Krampus.
    We're at nearly 20 years of Surly mountain bikes, and their derailleur hangers have yet to be a problem.
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    From what authority do you make that statement? Also, with what relevance? If you mess up a derailleur hanger on a Surly, you'll have to pay a frame builder to fix it. That is just a fact.

    Plenty of people,Myself included, prefer replaceable hangers. Better $20 than $150-$300.

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    Mess up a steel derailleur hangar? no such thing, the mech will self destruct long before the quarter inch steel twists itself off.
    Plus, being steel, you can bend it back with this https://www.parktool.com/product/der...e%20%26%20Fork eleventy billion times. My cantilever era monkey is a perfect example of that.

    Sure, there may be the 1 in a bazillion chance that you mess up the rear triangle, but you're talking some serious fall off a car type stuff, and will indeed need more than a hanger.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    I haven't ridden the Straggler, but I'm on a 50 cm Disc Trucker and I wonder if I could even fit on the same size Straggler 650b. I'd probably need to size down! I am banned from purchasing another bike until at least 2019, so I guess I have plenty of time to think about it.
    Banned is such a harsh word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    From what authority do you make that statement? Also, with what relevance? If you mess up a derailleur hanger on a Surly, you'll have to pay a frame builder to fix it. That is just a fact.
    I've owned 8 Surly Bikes, and I work at a Surly Dealer that builds/repairs/maintains dozens of Surly Bikes. Every employee at the shop owns multiple Surly Bikes. We have yet to see a hanger that couldn't be adjusted by the Park Tool mentioned above. It is not a fact that you need a frame builder to fix it. It's steel, it bends. Derailleurs do in fact break before the hanger does. I've seen a hell of a lot more broken replaceable hangers on other bikes, which most shops are happy to sell you for $25+, and will likely have to special order it for you since there are so many damn variations that it's impossible to keep them all in stock. If you tweak a Surly hanger (and I have), a quick adjustment will have you back on the trail in 10 minutes.

    Yes the MDS chips are a nice feature, but not necessary in my book. Plus the MDS frames have longer chainstays than the non-MDS frames!
    Jason
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    You can destroy a mech AND a hanger. Such magical feats happen. Often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    You can destroy a mech AND a hanger. Such magical feats happen. Often.
    "Often?"
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    yeah, a mech and an aluminum (sacrificial) hanger. show me a steel surly hanger thats beyond repair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    "Often?"
    It can and does happen, IF it happens to me, I'd prefer the cheap fix.

    Also "surly STEEEEL hangers"? They're just steel derailleur hangers. There is no magic about them, you sycophant. I'll run them on commuters, but it's not something many people want when investing in a bicycle used off road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    yeah, a mech and an aluminum (sacrificial) hanger. show me a steel surly hanger thats beyond repair.
    I've seen about 6 in the last 3 years. I didn't find that the occasion warranted photography. 1 cross check, 4 karate monkeys and a fatbike.

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    Bent 2017 Krampus hanger FWIW

    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    I've owned 8 Surly Bikes, and I work at a Surly Dealer that builds/repairs/maintains dozens of Surly Bikes. Every employee at the shop owns multiple Surly Bikes. We have yet to see a hanger that couldn't be adjusted by the Park Tool mentioned above. It is not a fact that you need a frame builder to fix it. It's steel, it bends. Derailleurs do in fact break before the hanger does. I've seen a hell of a lot more broken replaceable hangers on other bikes, which most shops are happy to sell you for $25+, and will likely have to special order it for you since there are so many damn variations that it's impossible to keep them all in stock. If you tweak a Surly hanger (and I have), a quick adjustment will have you back on the trail in 10 minutes.

    Yes the MDS chips are a nice feature, but not necessary in my book. Plus the MDS frames have longer chainstays than the non-MDS frames!
    I had my shiny new red Krampus for about one week this past summer & took a good spill, gears were growling at me. I took to LBS where I purchased said bike. Trusted mechanic threw on stand, straightened hangar, retuned gears in about 5 minutes, $10 in coffee jar, all good!

  78. #78
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    Just purchased another Surly, a '17 Krampus. It's actually my 5th Surly.

    I'm very happy with it, is built as a part aggressive HT part bikepacker, it's probably the best bike I ever had.

    But, but but, I really think they need to step up their game in order to stay relevant.
    I'd say they were probably among the most important brands of the last 10 /15 years, if not the most. But part of that relevance was due to riders being fed up with xc weight weinie culture and looking more fun (like bigger tires) or more relaxed activities (like bikepacking).

    Fast forward to present day and more and more mainstream brands are heavily into this kind of thing.

    I chose the Krampus because it gathered this features:
    - modern geo
    - chain tensioning capabilities (because I was once stranded by a broken RD/hanger and vertical dropouts, and wont be ever again)
    - fork compatibility
    - rack and DT braze ons
    - enough tire clearance and geo to run 29, 29+ and 27.5+

    The problem is I think I payed too much for it. Overall finish, paint and decals are still not top notch, far from it.
    Most of the features I mentioned above don't imply a big price tag.

    Lot's of smaller brands (mostly EU) are showing up with very nicely priced frames with lots of great features/geo and a much nicer finish. Nordest, Pipedream, Production Prive, Ragley, etc, etc, etc. If any of those combined big tire+DT braze ons+chain tensioning I'd had one of those vs the Surly.

    I really think Surly needs one of:
    A) keep the quirky innovation flowing
    B) step up the game on finish and some design details and raise the price a little bit and assume a higher market position
    C) lower the prices

    The new Pack Rat wasn't a very good sign for A), IMO.
    B) would be a very weird move, specially with Salsa on the same boat.

    C) would be more intelligent. I don't know their supply chain details, but frequently you can lower prices by changing your operations, without touching the product.
    A great ideal would be to drop the frameset concept at least on their conventional mountain bikes (Krampus and KM).
    Suspension forks are great these days, with ample tire clearances. Even long time rigid aficionados (like me) are now using long travel forks.
    I now have an useless Krampus rigid fork hanging on the garage. Ditching the forks would likely allow them to drop 80-100€ from the frame RSP, but still offering them separately

  79. #79
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    ^ some of that was a bit hard to follow, but I'm not sure I agree. The frames are ED coated internally, then powder coated? Not sure what level of finish your expecting but I think it's on par for the price point. Their decals are the same as they were 15 years ago no? At least if they get worn out you can easily replace them.

    Surly is not a "top notch" brand, it's a high value brand. I think you get a lot of bike for your money.

    You said Surly should either raise their price or lower their price in two consecutive sentences. Which is it? I have no idea what you were trying to say about the Pack Rat?

    I personally I prefer the frameset option as I want to build it up with the components I value, which is rarely what is offered complete from a manufacturer. If you look at the price of Surly forks, removing it from a frameset package would likely only change the price by $50-75.

    Really, if you want a nicer frame, you have to pay for it. They're out there, but they're not cheap. If you can find a "nicer" frame for $600, buy it. You seem more concerned about the finish and unconcerned with geometry or ride quality. Frankly I don't care much about the finish on a mountain bike that's going to show signs of wear in a matter of weeks. The things I value most are geometry, durability, value, ride quality, versatility. Roughly in that order. Surly hits those marks quite well, and you notice decal quality is nowhere on my list, but to each his own. I'm a little surprised someone who has owned 5 of them doesn't have a more clear understanding of what their buying. If you hate it so much, get it powder coated for $100 and make it your own.

    Right off their website: "A few final words about Surly values: UTILITY. VERSATILITY. DURABILITY."

    https://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew/ki
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    Maby I should mention I'm writing from EU, so prices may vary

    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    You said Surly should either raise their price or lower their price in two consecutive sentences. Which is it? I have no idea what you were trying to say about the Pack Rat?
    That's because I think they are currently in middle of the road and should chose a path (ence the "one of:" in my original post). Price wise that path could go up or down. Hope my idea is clear now.

    I mentioned the Pack Rat because that bike is very unoriginal and has a smell of component recycling and design constrains to it (I am skeptical about their explanation on the low vs high trail). I always saw Surly innovating, not following the others.


    I got my my first Surly, an Ogre, in 2012 for €410. It now costs €750. That's +€340 in 6 years, for which you get ED coating and an extra welding operation on the chainstay.

    I paid €700 for my Krampus. I got the same paint that flakes at the touch of a screw, the same peeling away from new decals, the same basic dropouts, the same basic head badge as I got with my first €400 Ogre.

    Let's put this into perspective.
    Nordest Bardino - €550
    Pipedream Moxie - €700
    Pipedream Sirius - €540
    Genesis Tarn - €560
    Ragley BigWig - €487
    Salsa Timberjack - €500
    Production Privee Shan GT - €600
    Santa Cruz Chameleon - €620

    All these frames have either more advanced dropouts (to my taste), better finish, more intricate design features, even more modern geometry or a combination of this points.
    And I'm not even talking about completes, only about frames.
    I still chose the Krampus because is combines some key features (to me), but not because of value or brand loyalty.


    So no, I don't think a €700 Surly frame, as it is, is a great value.

    You speak about being concerned about geometry and ride quality? Surly was never known for their refined ride quality and in these burly, more trail oriented frames, steel gets very hard to distinguish from aluminum when riding. And geometry? Lot's of frames out there with all sorts of geometry.

  81. #81
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    @Ze_Zaskar I agree. Surly seems to have lost their way. If I remember there was a change in management several years ago. Since that time they have become mainstream and less niche in their philosophy.
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

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    There's a couple things I can see we aren't going to agree upon, and that's OK, but I won't waste time trying to change your mind.

    First I don't think this is the right thread for your original post. This thread is about things to come which has nothing to do with the topics you brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    Maby I should mention I'm writing from EU, so prices may vary
    Agreed, that could be a variable but you knew what you were buying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    That's because I think they are currently in middle of the road and should chose a path (ence the "one of:" in my original post). Price wise that path could go up or down. Hope my idea is clear now.
    They're never going to be high end or low end. High value, versatile, durable, etc. Not light, not fancy, not cheap. I really don't understand your complaint here?

    I paid €700 for my Krampus. I got the same paint that flakes at the touch of a screw, the same peeling away from new decals, the same basic dropouts, the same basic head badge as I got with my first €400 Ogre.
    Why are you touching your frame with screws? Again, your complaints are about cosmetics. What's wrong with the head badge? It's way better than having a sticker head badge, or paint that you get from other manufacturers.

    All these frames have either more advanced dropouts (to my taste), better finish, more intricate design features, even more modern geometry or a combination of this points.
    You bought the wrong frame then. If you wanted different dropouts why did you buy the Surly then complain about the dropouts???? Seriously? You just said how these other frames have better finish, more intricate design features, and even more modern geometry. Why didn't you buy the frame you wanted?

    I've never seen anyone complain about their decision because of these very superficial reasons. It just sounds like you regret your decision. You clearly have your expectations too high for the money your willing to spend. You should have bought a nicer frame.


    So no, I don't think a €700 Surly frame, as it is, is a great value.
    Nobody held a gun to your head. Why did you buy it?

    You speak about being concerned about geometry and ride quality? Surly was never known for their refined ride quality and in these burly, more trail oriented frames, steel gets very hard to distinguish from aluminum when riding. And geometry? Lot's of frames out there with all sorts of geometry.
    I couldn't disagree with you more about ride quality between Frame materials, so I won't try to change your mind. Again, if there's another frame out there with geometry that suites you better, why didn't you buy it instead of the Surly?
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    Literally had another destroyed, unreplaceable steel hanger today. Took a hell of a crash to both fold the hanger AND rip the threads out. Fell on the drive side at speed and then slid on ice.

    Big Dummy this time. Not sure how he managed it past his cargo rails. I got him in contact with a local frame builder.

    So, it happens. When it does, it sucks.

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  84. #84
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    Alright my friends enough of steel derailleur hangers. Let's get back to new models. Where the hell are they?
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agwan View Post
    Literally had another destroyed, unreplaceable steel hanger today. Took a hell of a crash to both fold the hanger AND rip the threads out. Fell on the drive side at speed and then slid on ice.

    Big Dummy this time. Not sure how he managed it past his cargo rails. I got him in contact with a local frame builder.

    So, it happens. When it does, it sucks.

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    Gots pix of this most recent episode?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chippertheripper View Post
    Gots pix of this most recent episode?
    I tend to NOT share pictures of my customers misfortunes on social medias. Doesn't really engender trust with them. If he gets it fixed I'll see if I can get his permission to share the "after" photos. It cracked clean at the fold, so I'm hoping he can just lay a weld across the crack and helicoil the threads. Still not sure how he managed it on a loaded Big Dummy with rails, but I'm glad he's okay.

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    I've owned a few Surlys over the years and taken them offroad lots. I've never even come close to damaging a frame in a way that would need professional frame builder to intervene. Is it possible that could happen? Sure. But, if you are worried about $hit out there at the margins of possibility than there are lots of other things to worry about.

    I know lots of folks with Surlys I have never heard of anyone destroying a derailleur hanger.

    I have seen a few Surlys that were crashed to destruction and a few where a weld/tube broke.

    But never seen a destroyed derailleur hanger. It's certainly not something I'll spend even 5 seconds worrying about.
    Safe riding,

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    You seem really hung up on the fact that many people still want a replaceable hanger. And I'm happy that your anecdotal evidence supports your opinion. But hanger alignment, repair and replacement is a near daily task for me. I want the most freedom and the lowest cost to repair on my mountain bikes, so my next bike will be a 27.5 plus instigator instead of a KM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    Alright my friends enough of steel derailleur hangers. Let's get back to new models. Where the hell are they?
    Damn right, let's get this thread back on track. After the leak of the Pack Rat photo--which came directly from the dealer site, as the poster here who posted it said--I think Surly are being kinda cautious in the lead up to Frostbike.

    I don't think we'll see any pics of the new models appearing before the official ones.

    At this stage, it's what?

    MidNight Special (White, all road, 700c/650b Pacer Replacement)
    Updated Pugsley (Orange, no other info)
    Updated Moonlander? (Vague rumors, nothing concrete)
    Unicycle? (Called the Joker? Ridden by gas mask wearing monkeys?)

    Frostbike is about 4 weeks away, so we may see an announcement of at least one of the above in a week or two?

  90. #90
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    I wouldn't hold my breath for a new Pugsley in the coming year. But maybe someday...
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    I wouldn't hold my breath for a new Pugsley in the coming year. But maybe someday...
    It's an iconic name. It really needs to live. Let's face it that bike started a whole class of bikes.
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    It's an iconic name. It really needs to live. Let's face it that bike started a whole class of bikes.
    No doubt. But what does it morph into, that isn't already covered by the Wednesday, ICT and others?

    The only thing I can think of is a fat bike with even more tire clearance than what is currently available, but that requires the evolution of several things in tandem. Could happen, for sure, but I'm not sure we'll see it in 2018.
    "The only way we can truly control the outcome of a ride is not going on it, which is a choice I'm unwilling to make." -K.B.

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    With current market conditions I can't see them happily investing in fatbike R&D

  94. #94
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    I heard a Pugsley rumor. We’ll see what gets released at Frostbike next month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CS2 View Post
    Banned is such a harsh word.
    Said by someone who hasn't seen my credit card statement!

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    Said by someone who hasn't seen my credit card statement!
    We need to to introduce you to the wonderful world of scrounging. I buy old bikes just for one part. Then sell everything else off to defray the cost. Usually it pays off. Sometimes it backfires. We won't talk about that though.
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithhammer View Post
    No doubt. But what does it morph into, that isn't already covered by the Wednesday, ICT and others?

    The only thing I can think of is a fat bike with even more tire clearance than what is currently available, but that requires the evolution of several things in tandem. Could happen, for sure, but I'm not sure we'll see it in 2018.
    I would personally love an updated ICT designed to run a 140mm fork if so desired and a threaded BB with IR dropper post routing. Something like a Chromag nice dreams but at a surly price.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by surlywhore View Post
    I heard a Pugsley rumor. We’ll see what gets released at Frostbike next month.
    You didn't have to wait that long.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    Keep the Rubber Side Down

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    [QUOTE=Ze_Zaskar;13507682]Just purchased another Surly, a '17 Krampus. It's actually my 5th Surly.

    I'm very happy with it, is built as a part aggressive HT part bikepacker, it's probably the best bike I ever had.

    But, but but, I really think they need to step up their game in order to stay relevant.
    I'd say they were probably among the most important brands of the last 10 /15 years, if not the most. But part of that relevance was due to riders being fed up with xc weight weinie culture and looking more fun (like bigger tires) or more relaxed activities (like bikepacking). Quote ] But yet you bought 5? Seems they are doing well. Own a crosscheck, 1x1 and a KM, no issues.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErvSpanks View Post
    You didn't have to wait that long.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    It just did. I got the official intergalactic email.
    A garage full of steel frames means happiness.

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