Specialized Goes Electric with the Pedal Assist Stumpjumper FSR Turbo Levo 6Fattie- Mtbr.com
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    Specialized Goes Electric with the Pedal Assist Stumpjumper FSR Turbo Levo 6Fattie


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    Did not see this coming.
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    Before the whining about e-mtbs starts:

    I love to earn my descent, as well. But this is a great offering for people who want to continue riding after injuries or when they grow older. It's also a great way to share the riding experience with someone not as used to riding / climbing a lot.

    Share the trail.

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    crazy! i tried to embed the show here but it didnt work

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    Allllll of the strava kom's!!!!!!!!!!
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    Quite a good article actually. However they've unintentionally cited a "bonus" that might backfire:

    "... when you race your buddies up a 10-minute, root-infested traverse instead of just pushing your bike, that's a pretty big bonus. "

    Sure, sounds fun if ALL parties in the ride have the same advantage. It would get real old for me to see Buddy "A" casually pedal up stuff he can't really do otherwise, while we struggle, or have to push. Suspect Buddy "B" would eventually punch Buddy "A" in the throat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Before the whining about e-mtbs starts:

    I love to earn my descent, as well. But this is a great offering for people who want to continue riding after injuries or when they grow older. It's also a great way to share the riding experience with someone not as used to riding / climbing a lot.

    Share the trail.
    I hear this argument all the time. However what percentage of the actual e-mtb users have you seen who fall into this category. So far I'd say < 5%

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    I would like to see the e-bikes get their own special designation/group for legislative purposes. I do not want to see any group suddenly become disadvantaged because they are all lumped together if the issue is mostly due to the impact (or potential impact) of one relatively small segment of that group.

    If they have their own designation, it makes it simpler to include them or exclude them based on their own unique impact/issues, while not impacting other groups (namely mountain bikes that are solely pedal powered). I absolutely see them having their place, but I don't see that place necessarily being every place a pedal powered MTB can go. JMHO.

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    I suspect if you rocked up to a race on one of these they wouldn't let you anywhere near the start line.
    But if you are an older rider or not so serious about riding then it would be a good way t get onto trails that you normally wouldn't.
    for the rest of us the only engine I will rely one is my two legs and out of shape fat ass lol.

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    What we need to really get this e-mountain bike thing going is charging stations on the trails. I bet Starbucks would pay for the stations if we would let them sell coffee there.

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    The only guy I've ever seen ride an electric assist bike on dirt is 74 years old. I was just glad to see him out on the trail at that age.

    Downside: he flatted and had to call his wife for pick up since there was no practical way to do trailside tube replacement.

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    My daughter has 35 years less than I am, so this kind of technology makes me have a hope that when she be in hers 20's I will be able to go out and share the trails with her at my 60's, for me this are good news.
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    The only caveat I can see is this;

    You ride one of these full squish e-bikes out on the trail because it can take you places that you can't normally go on a leg powered bike.
    Said e-beastie then has a technical failure (be it electrical, mechanical, animal, vegetable, mineral, what ever)
    Good luck dragging what now is at best a 20kg + boat anchor back out to the trail head with your poor ageing / injured / unfit body, huh?

    To anyone who then tells me "oh, but regular man powered MTBs break too", I will nod, agree, and then make the observation that those fine men and women (and kids too) that are able to pedal their asses out into the green and pleasant stuff tend to be fit and able bodied enough to drag said bike out again under their own steam should things go awry in all but the most extreme circumstances.

    If you ain't fit enough to pedal it in, you sure as hell ain't fit enough to carry it out.

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    ^^^

    Ha, the above sounds like one of the scenarios at the start of the Dual Survival TV show!

    -snowmobiler gets stranded in mountains when running out of gas
    -canoeist capsizes in the deep bush
    -e-cyclist goes too far into the woods

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    I can't imagine riding one of these as it defeats the entire purpose of riding for me, but all of the objections I hear to other people riding them seem to be philosophical. The comparison to them and motorcycles makes no sense - we're talking about something that clearly uses a bicycle as the donor vehicle and doesn't produce the idle power of a motorcycle. It also produces no additional noise or emissions, and almost certainly causes no real additional trail wear (particularly since the riders of these bikes will generally produce less of their own power than serious mountain bikers).

    Vangaurd said it best - share the trail. As long as bikers, hikers, hunters and equestrians get to use the trails, so should these folks.
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    At my 37 still strong un the Bike, don't know st 60, so this is a good option if get weak or injured with age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Before the whining about e-mtbs starts:

    I love to earn my descent, as well. But this is a great offering for people who want to continue riding after injuries or when they grow older. It's also a great way to share the riding experience with someone not as used to riding / climbing a lot.

    Share the trail.
    If that's the true intent, let's vet them via a program like the handicap parking spot decal program. No decal, no e-bike on trail.

    If this isn't the real reason for e-bikes, then let's just call a spade a spade, mkay?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Mumphry View Post
    ... It also produces no additional noise or emissions, and almost certainly causes no real additional trail wear.
    ...
    That's not quite true. Technically speaking, the source of the electricity could be "dirty" (coal), and thus the e-bike is responsible for emissions - just not at the point of use.

    As for abnormal trail wear, I wouldn't have suspected that either, but in the review of the bike cited in this thread they specically called out trail wear as a potential problem. Seems like the aggresive modes tend to really spin out with more force than a typical rider.

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    Point of use is all I'm talking about, and really all that matters in this context. If emissions tied to electrical generation should come into play then by the same logic emissions tied to the manufacturing of the bike, or even the emissions generated by the car that transports the bike should as well.

    The review may have called out a potential problem, but that doesn't equal a measurable problem. I'm sure these bikes allow less aggressive riders to behave more aggressively, but until I see everyone on my local trails obeying mud etiquette and showing up for trail days I'm not willing to advocate the banning of certain kinds of bikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Mumphry View Post
    Point of use is all I'm talking about, and really all that matters in this context. If emissions tied to electrical generation should come into play then by the same logic emissions tied to the manufacturing of the bike, or even the emissions generated by the car that transports the bike should as well.
    I disagree. Comparing a regular bike to an ebike, they both took similar energy to build the frame, tires, components, etc. So the basic structure is equal and a wash.

    However, the ebike loses WRT manufacturing because it includes a battery, motor, gearbox and electrical controls that a regular bike doesn't include. All those things take more energy to make.

    The car driving to the trail is also a wash essentially. You have to transport both to the trail head. But the ebike loses a bit here since it weighs about double a regular bike so, that equals a lose of fuel economy in comparison.

    So an ebike absolutely takes more energy to make and use than a regular bike. I don't know how much that really matters, but it is different.
    Last edited by Chader09; 07-08-2015 at 07:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost_HTX View Post
    The only caveat I can see is this;

    You ride one of these full squish e-bikes out on the trail because it can take you places that you can't normally go on a leg powered bike.
    Said e-beastie then has a technical failure (be it electrical, mechanical, animal, vegetable, mineral, what ever)
    Good luck dragging what now is at best a 20kg + boat anchor back out to the trail head with your poor ageing / injured / unfit body, huh?

    To anyone who then tells me "oh, but regular man powered MTBs break too", I will nod, agree, and then make the observation that those fine men and women (and kids too) that are able to pedal their asses out into the green and pleasant stuff tend to be fit and able bodied enough to drag said bike out again under their own steam should things go awry in all but the most extreme circumstances.

    If you ain't fit enough to pedal it in, you sure as hell ain't fit enough to carry it out.
    Very good point.
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    I'm so bummed the technology is so good.
    I'm going to absolutely hate seeing these things out on the trail.

    In Washington, everyone I have talked to is adamant that they are motorized and should only be allowed on motorized trails. But enforcement will be almost impossible.

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    I've given this some additional thought and;

    All the cougars, bears, coyotes, badgers, wolverines, foxes etc... would end up being much better fed than currently... Just think of all that physically decrepit ape steak e-pedaling itself out into the woods only to go empty for juice / break down.

    Mmmmmmanwich! It's what's for dinner!

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    you aren't old until age becomes your excuse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    I disagree. Comparing a regular bike to an ebike, they both took similar energy to build the frame, tires, components, etc. So the basic structure is equal and a wash.

    However, the ebike loses WRT manufacturing because it includes a battery, motor, gearbox and electrical controls that a regular bike doesn't include. All those things take more energy to make.

    The car driving to the trail is also a wash essentially. You have to transport both to the trail head. But the ebike loses a bit here since it weighs about double a regular bike so, that equals a lose of fuel economy in comparison.

    So an ebike absolutely takes more energy to make and use than a regular bike. I don't know how much that really matters, but it is different.
    I still disagree. The concern here is the affect it has on the habitat in which it's being ridden or otherwise used; not it's overall impact on the global environment. If I ride a pedal assisted mountain bike from my house to the trail and you drive your non-assisted bike in your Hummer to the trail then my entire ride likely produces fewer emissions that your startup. It simply isn't realistic to compare the environmental impact of every riders daily activities; only the ride itself and the environment in which that happens really matters here. In this case, the e-bike adds no additional pollutants to it's environment in the way motorbike would, and I think it's very unlikely it causes a measurable amount of additional trail wear.
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    It will be interesting to see if Specialized does ever market it in the US...my guess is no, because of the backlash they would get. I think eBikes sneaking into the market in a significant way will significantly hurt access...as those against bike access are able to make the argument that mountain bikes are synonymous with engine powered. People laying down on this and smoking the peace pipe saying "share the trail" or pretending that this is for disabled access are going to hurt things. Thankfully the IMBA and every other MTB group of significance is lined up on the right side of the issue. Europe is different...Specialized better make sure they are lined up on the right side too or they will be hurt, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Mumphry View Post
    I still disagree. The concern here is the affect it has on the habitat in which it's being ridden or otherwise used; not it's overall impact on the global environment. If I ride a pedal assisted mountain bike from my house to the trail and you drive your non-assisted bike in your Hummer to the trail then my entire ride likely produces fewer emissions that your startup. It simply isn't realistic to compare the environmental impact of every riders daily activities; only the ride itself and the environment in which that happens really matters here. In this case, the e-bike adds no additional pollutants to it's environment in the way motorbike would, and I think it's very unlikely it causes a measurable amount of additional trail wear.
    That is a deliberately lopsided comparison.
    Then, why not assume the regular biker comes from 200 miles in that gas guzzler compared to the ebiker arriving from his back yard? Stack the deck to emphasize your point, but it is simply misleading.

    If you want a true comparison, you have to balance the process to match as many variables as possible. That is just part of any scientific process to get accurate, comparable results. In this case, that would mean assuming two riders arrive from the same distance in the same method (whether that is on bike or in a similar car).

    Besides, do you really think someone would bypass using a car to get their ebike to the trail? That is counter to a huge reason someone would buy one in the first place (the need to avoid too much or strenuous cycling effort).

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    If an e-bike will go uphill without pedaling, it's a dirtbike. This one is just 250 watts, but if you look at youtube, there are massive motors and even two-wheel-drive.

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    Can't say I'm a fan of this concept. Sure there have been points raised in benefit for potential riders who might have been injured, or disabled, or who otherwise would not be able to ride a bike (fat and lazy not included) And for those potential users, yay for them - these could help provide them another avenue of mobility. However I do believe that will be a very small sect of the user base for these.

    My concern really lies in the fact that as a community, Mtn. bikers have come such a long way in gaining access to trails that this can really jeopardize all that, if their use is not governed properly. Where I live, the parks that do allow biking have rules, one of which being "no motorized vehicles"

    These have a motor, plain and simple. Don't mess up our trails and risk our access.

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    Pretty cool bike if you ask me.

    Did anyone actually watch the video? It is pedal assist, you have to pedal it to make it go. No traditional motorbike throttle. You can't make it rip and shred terra firma just by twisting a handgrip or thumbing a lever.

    Whether it will be allowed at certain mtb parks - who knows.
    Anyone ride the Rubberhead Classic in Canada, mid 90's... race and trials??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chadio View Post
    Whether it will be allowed at certain mtb parks - who knows.
    The National Forest Service has already classified and banned e-bikes.

  32. #32
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    This thing is pretty stealthy as far as e-bikes go. I think anyone would be hard-pressed at a distance to tell, unless of course they saw you climbing something impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MudSnow View Post
    The National Forest Service has already classified and banned e-bikes.
    The Fed Gov has also banned marijuana - care to visit Colorado or Washington?
    Anyone ride the Rubberhead Classic in Canada, mid 90's... race and trials??

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    Regarding access - as a guy who has enjoyed most forms of off-road recreation:

    4-wheeling (street legal vehicles)
    atv - straddle and side by side
    snowmobiling
    dirt biking
    observed trials motor and pedal
    mountain biking

    I can tell you this without question: the vehicles themselves do nothing to abuse or jeopardize legal access to the back country. What does it then? Irresponsible parameciums who do not give a flying feck about anyone or anything or anywhere, leaving a trail of garbage and destruction everywhere they go, and there is a disgusting amount of them in the Pacific Northwest.

    Been doing this gig since 1980, btw.
    Anyone ride the Rubberhead Classic in Canada, mid 90's... race and trials??

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    access is a huge issue, but let's face it - a big reason bikers recoil so vehemently from these things is the purity of muscle based effort. We're all not the same playing field, everyone is playing to some combination of genetics and effort and commitment over time. You strain for every gain in ability, and honestly congratulate and compete with those better and worse than you. The idea of being motored over by some goober who has never suffered is the real psychological would of these things. Its bad enough having someone wearing slacks and a rubber band around their right ankle pass you on a paved commuter trail but to see some hack who has a single year of riding time motoring up an anaerobic redline tech climb that one can only clear on a good day and yet is still a point of pride in your biking resume just seems intolerable.

    I think as much as any other reason that is why I hate them.

    Now OTOH, as a global solution to transportation, you have to recognize the brilliance of it. As the technology gets better they will be even more efficient and beguiling. I was pretty impressed they were getting 4-5 hour mountain rides out of them. Imagine if we have a 2:1 battery or motor breakthrough one of these days how that will revolutionize e-cars and that will be great for so many aspects of global life but it will make it impossible for many people to maintain purity. For example what about a Di2 size battery and a front only motor hub that adds 1/2 lb but gives you a burst of motor 2wd assist on a tech climb ? Although with the proliferation of 1*11 drivetrains, will we even have trails with tech climbs in our future ? Ruh roh, I just commented on two controversial topics in one post.

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    ^ great post, Scoob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chader09 View Post
    That is a deliberately lopsided comparison.
    Then, why not assume the regular biker comes from 200 miles in that gas guzzler compared to the ebiker arriving from his back yard? Stack the deck to emphasize your point, but it is simply misleading.

    If you want a true comparison, you have to balance the process to match as many variables as possible. That is just part of any scientific process to get accurate, comparable results. In this case, that would mean assuming two riders arrive from the same distance in the same method (whether that is on bike or in a similar car).

    Besides, do you really think someone would bypass using a car to get their ebike to the trail? That is counter to a huge reason someone would buy one in the first place (the need to avoid too much or strenuous cycling effort).
    You're missing the point. I'm saying it's unrealistic to compare all the pollution associated with the production and use of any bike, because production and use will inevitably vary making it completely impossible to accurately measure environmental impact of two individual bikes.

    My example was simply to illustrate this - not to suggest that two riders in the scenario represented the most likely use cases. Again, the only thing really relevant here is do e-bikes pollute the environment in which they are used more than non-assisted bikes, and in this case the answer is no.

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    The direct usage may not expel any emmisions, but the magic electrons required to run an ebike must come from some source (coal fired power plants, hydro-electric dams, wind, solar, nuclear, etc.)

    Clearly some of those are "cleaner" than others. Therefore in some cases, ebike are dirtier than a normal bike while others may be neutral, in terms of true emmisions to operate it.

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    And again, if you're suggesting that offsite pollution needs to be considered then you may as well consider all the pollution associated with riding and not simply riding itself. Should I get special access because I live close enough to ride to the trails everyday vs those who drive? By the offsite pollution logic we'd be better off getting rid of parking lots than we would e-bikes.

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    I like the idea especially for someone that might be older and still wants to get out on the trail but their legs aren't what they used to be.

    Being that it's pedal assist, I don't think you can call this an e-bike. That's like like calling the Toyota Prius an electric car. It's not an electric car. It uses a gas motor with electric assist. In the case of the this bike, it's a human motor with electric assist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost_HTX View Post
    The only caveat I can see is this;

    You ride one of these full squish e-bikes out on the trail because it can take you places that you can't normally go on a leg powered bike.
    Said e-beastie then has a technical failure (be it electrical, mechanical, animal, vegetable, mineral, what ever)
    Good luck dragging what now is at best a 20kg + boat anchor back out to the trail head with your poor ageing / injured / unfit body, huh?
    Not any different than someone who rides a motorbike/ATV/snowmobile off into the backcountry. Sh!t happens and you figure out a way to get it out of there?


    Would you rather have to drag out a 200lb motor bike or a 44 lb pedal assist bike?

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    Quote Originally Posted by prj71 View Post

    Being that it's pedal assist, I don't think you can call this an e-bike.
    It's a pedelec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
    Not any different than someone who rides a motorbike/ATV/snowmobile off into the backcountry. Sh!t happens and you figure out a way to get it out of there?


    Would you rather have to drag out a 200lb motor bike or a 44 lb pedal assist bike?
    Neither. I would rather go ride my rigid 26er and have the presence of mind to take with me my cellphone (assuming I have reception out in the green and fragrant), a multi tool, a couple of links of chain & the required connector pins, a tube patching kit, a tube, maybe a rear derailler hanger, some cable ends and some food and water. With that you can fix more or less all of the common faults that can happen to your bike, should the unforeseen occur out in the backcountry - not that we have a lot of "backcountry" around Oslo. Note that the above would most likely not help in extreme situations, though.

    I can see the point you are making but it isn't really the same thing. In fact what you are doing is lumping e-bikes/pedelecs in with motorbikes and atvs which is where I think they should be. They don't belong on mtb trails. They are not bicycles.

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    "They don't belong on trails ..."

    is what the hikers say all the time, and the statement is directed at anything on two wheels, whether e- or not.

    The only non-biped they accept has four legs.

    We shouldn't become elitist just because we still can make it up there unassisted. There is no "right or wrong way" of biking. If this gets people on mountains who otherwise would have stayed at home, I'm all for it.

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    FWIW, hikers would not be able to identify it as an e-bike anyway. It's fairly stealth, and the pedal-assist nature would pretty much hide it from "the walkers".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    "They don't belong on trails ..."

    is what the hikers say all the time, and the statement is directed at anything on two wheels, whether e- or not.
    I see what you did there. You misquoted me. I wrote "They don't belong on MTB trails". There is a subtle difference between what I wrote and what you quoted.

    I agree that there is not a right or wrong way of biking. I don't care if someone rides a road bike, a hybrid, a 29er a 26er a 650b, full squish, full rigid, hard tail, down hill, tricycle, unicycle, tandem, velocipede, penny farthing, fixie, BMX, a sit-up-and-beg-bone-rattler, SS, 3x10, 2x10, 1x11, 96er, 32er, mechanical shift, Di2, hydro brakes, mech brakes, rim brakes, disc brakes, or even a fat bike So long as it is purely pedal powered. That to me is the defining feature of a "bicycle". Add in a motor and you turn it from a bicycle into something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost_HTX View Post
    ...
    I don't care if someone rides a road bike, a hybrid, a 29er a 26er a 650b, full squish, full rigid, hard tail, down hill, tricycle, unicycle, tandem, velocipede, penny farthing, fixie, BMX, a sit-up-and-beg-bone-rattler, SS, 3x10, 2x10, 1x11, 96er, 32er, mechanical shift, Di2, hydro brakes, mech brakes, rim brakes, disc brakes, or even a fat bike So long as it is purely pedal powered. That to me is the defining feature of a "bicycle". Add in a motor and you turn it from a bicycle into something else.
    What, you don't like miniature clown bikes? Jerk.

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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost_HTX View Post
    I see what you did there. You misquoted me. I wrote "They don't belong on MTB trails". There is a subtle difference between what I wrote and what you quoted.
    I see what you do here. You are nitpicking.

    Now tell me that you are only riding "MTB trails" and what separates them from just "trails". Are they designated with a bike sign in your area?

  49. #49
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    If we're talking about MTB-only designated trails, which in the US generally mean they're private, then certainly they can exclude whatever they like. If we're talking about shared-use trails, it makes no logical sense to bad pedal assist bikes. It's a purely philosophical move that employs the same logic hikers use to try to exclude bikers as a whole.
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  50. #50
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    Here is a video of an "pedal assist" Haibike I saw on another forum. Not a Spesh...but gives a good visual of how it actually works. Guy that owns it says that it can't spin the rear wheel.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmC60E8d-jo

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    I see what you do here. You are nitpicking.

    Now tell me that you are only riding "MTB trails" and what separates them from just "trails". Are they designated with a bike sign in your area?
    Not nitpicking at all. Just pointing out that you distorted what I wrote.

    For what it's worth I'm from Scotland, but now living in Oslo, Norway and we really don't have this issue that you guys in the USA have with access / sharing the trails etc.

    It's part of the culture to be out in the "Marka" as the Norwegians call it. No one *****es or whines about hikers / horses / mtbs and we all get along just fine so long as we are considerate of each other. Don't bomb past horses or hikers, let people know you're coming, be friendly and say hello ("hils på" as the Norwegians say).

    There are two/three types of marked path that I am aware of here;

    There are gravel roads (grusvei) marked with red signs which are usually well maintained and used by everyone - horses, hikers, bikers & those who have cabins / farms etc out there so you might meet the odd car / truck but no too often. No motorbikes, ATVs etc are allowed on these roads (or anywhere in the "Marka" as far as I know). These roads seemingly go on forever and all eventually link up or lead out to somewhere civilised. You can ride 100s of kilometres on these without coming out of the trees and easily stay out all day and not get bored.

    There are also smaller tracks that are marked with blue signs. These guys can be fun to ride as they go right into the forest and are (at least where I live) technical, rocky, rooty, often muddy and can be very twisty-turny too. These tracks are seasonal (summer for hikers and bikers, winter they are ski tracks). You are just as likely to run into a Deer or Elk as you are a hiker on some of these.

    So - to make a long story short; no. We don't have mtb specific trails where I am. We also don't have the issues you have. We are lucky to have a city with a population of less than 800,000 and access to forest area that is almost 900 square km. A far bigger issue in Oslo is that of mixed use paths in the city and car vs pedestrian vs cyclist interaction there.

    Now - if someone wants to go ride their e-bike on the gravel roads out there then I have no issue with it. They will not affect anyone at all & these roads are already used by trucks and cars (albeit very lightly). If they want to go ride their e-bike on the smaller tracks? I would be a little less happy about it (mainly because I see it as "cheating" - having an electric motor do the work for you) but that is my hang up and fair play so long as it doesn't hurt of affect others.

    But - should the use of e-bikes start to erode, damage and wear out these tracks THEN I am strongly against them. Why? Because then they are affecting others negatively - they would be damaging the tracks and calling negative attention to mtbers in general.

  52. #52
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    Do any of you live in an area where these are allowed on non-motorized trails? In Colorado and Utah anything with a motor is a motorbike and only allowed on the trails that normal dirtbikes are allowed on. I agree that if these were allowed on MTB/hiking/horse trails that that'd be opening a new segment but as is they are just under-performing dirtbikes. I'd rather ride something like a KTM Freeride 250 on the trails these are allowed on.
    Keep the Country country.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudSnow View Post
    If an e-bike will go uphill without pedaling, it's a dirtbike. This one is just 250 watts, but if you look at youtube, there are massive motors and even two-wheel-drive.
    Due to most potential customers not being in the US, anything designed for mass production will abide by the european pedelec laws. 250W, 15mph cutoff.

  54. #54
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    Do European pedelec laws consider them to be non-motorized vehicles if under 250w and 15mph? Can they use bike paths and non-moto trails in Europe? Our paved bike path network in Summit Country expressly forbids any kind of motor, doesn't matter the power or speed. On dirt the forest service considers anything with a motor to be motorized so "pedelecs" can only be used on trails that allow dirtbikes.
    Keep the Country country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost_HTX View Post

    But - should the use of e-bikes start to erode, damage and wear out these tracks THEN I am strongly against them. Why? Because then they are affecting others negatively - they would be damaging the tracks and calling negative attention to mtbers in general.
    A peddle assist bike, which is being discussed here, would do none of that.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    Do European pedelec laws consider them to be non-motorized vehicles if under 250w and 15mph? Can they use bike paths and non-moto trails in Europe? Our paved bike path network in Summit Country expressly forbids any kind of motor, doesn't matter the power or speed. On dirt the forest service considers anything with a motor to be motorized so "pedelecs" can only be used on trails that allow dirtbikes.
    Yep they are considered bicycles and have to use bike paths/lanes and are allowed in the forest where regular bicycles are allowed.

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    I will know I'm old the day I actually consider riding one of these. That'll be a sad day for me. I'm closer to 70 than 40, and fully expect to keep on riding as I currently do for another decade at least. After that, maybe it'll be time to start hiking again.

  58. #58
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    So do you think US laws will change to allow these on bike paths and trails where motor vehicles are banned? Right now the forest service and BLM authorities say they're dirtbikes and my county government bans any kind of motor from the paved bike paths.
    These might just remain a European novelty.
    Keep the Country country.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    So do you think US laws will change to allow these on bike paths and trails where motor vehicles are banned? Right now the forest service and BLM authorities say they're dirtbikes and my county government bans any kind of motor from the paved bike paths.
    These might just remain a European novelty.
    UNfortunately US lawmakers do not use as much common sense as in europe. So its anyone's guess what will happen in a few years. But from what i can tell, ebikes are so much fun that they are becoming more and more popular in spite of "pure" cyclists' opposition. Once they reach a critical mass of users, they will lobby like any other group and they might get some attention sooner or later

  60. #60
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    I've rode the bike, awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_G View Post
    I've rode the bike, awesome.
    Anymore info? What was awesome about it?
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    I can't believe some of the people commenting in here. The only reason they seem to be against pedal assist bikes are their own egos. You get all bent out of shape because someone with an electric advantage beats you up a hill? Seriously!? How American of you to not mind your own business and enjoy your own damn ride! Good for them, they passed you. Oohhhhh!!!! Get over yourselves. Pathetic.

    I've been riding most of my life but an underlying condition is causing me considerable pain on my rides. It's causing me to shorten my rides lure and more as the years go on and I'm in my mid 30s! I'm SERIOUSLY considering one of these as they'd effectively double my ride time. And yet, I've got to be concerned how other riders perceive me in the trail because of my choice of bike? You wouldn't know I had this issue if you saw me, but believe me it's there. Someone earlier mentioned how an electric assist rider would get a throat punch by his friends because he's effectively cheating on the climbs. The way I see it, it's people like YOU who deserve the throat punch.

    Like I said, mind your own damn business and enjoy your ride! It's not a dirt bike guys. Far far from it!

    Some of the egos are insatiable. Just ride your bikes and shut your narrow minded mouths!


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  63. #63
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    Having ridden one of these bikes I can say it certainly changed my view on the subject of e-bikes. it doubles what you put in and yes climbing hills was a dream, but descending was no difference apart from feeling the extra weight, but hey it was like the DH rigs of the past that had the weight of a small moon, your arms certainly had the workout after a 3 hour ride. I doubled my normal ride time and felt as if i had done my normal ride and was at the limit, but had done an extra 15k of riding.

    I had been off the bike for a while dude to snapping two of my ankle ligaments, which a year later still haven't recovered so i'm limited on just how much I could ride and I have to say borrowing this at the start gave me more confidence to push more riding and even though i only did two rides on the bike it helped me get back on my bike and enjoying the trails i love. Having said that i now feel the pain of hills with out the power assist to get up them.
    I do feel they are here to stay and I don't have an issue with it.
    Home trails Swinley Forest UK

  64. #64
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    Ultimately, while I do believe pedal assist at least partially defeats the entire purpose of riding - for me, anyway - insisting that they are motorcycles and not bicycles is like insisting that my son's power wheels is a Tesla. In fact, because a motorcycle doesn't have pedals, that comparison is less valid than the Powerwheels/Tesla one.

    Furthermore, there's no evidence that e-bikes wear or damage trails to greater extent than regular mountain bikes. If I am heavy, ride aggressively with aggressive tires and can put down the average of 3 watss/kg per hour on my mountain bike, I'm almost certainly causing more wear than a lighter, more moderate rider on an e-bike. That coupled with the fact that there is no added noise or onsite emissions or pollution seems to support access for the current crop of e-bikes.
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    I watched the e-bike race at SOC and came away impressed. At first I didn't realize they were e-bikes and thought, " man these guys are flying up hills!" But then I realized it was the e-bike race. Looked like a ton of fun. Definitely brings a new look to racing. I raced the XC course and going up the last hills back to the finish line had me wishing for a 250w motor in my bike...

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