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  1. #1
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    Ever heard of "Add **** To Ignore List"?

    I just spent about 20 minutes adding users to my ignore list, and it is an amazing thing!!!!!!!
    Really!!!!!!!!!!!

    Instantly the posts become alot more informative and much less inflamatory.
    Try it, I think you'll like the results.
    Anybody you add to your ignore list their posts all shrink up, and go away. For good. I like it.
    Just click to view their public profile " their avatar" and on the top-ish right click add user to ignore list, the next page is a confirmation page, click the submit button and viola!!!!!!!!!!

    Less flame, more fun and information.....which is what most of us normal people are here for right?
    It takes a while to add everyone that you don't want to hear from, but it is well worth it.

    Just pick your favorite most flamed post and its easy to find everyone within a few threads.
    Look, whatever happens, don't fight the mountain.

  2. #2
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    Nice one guess you guys are riding tomorrow aye.
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  3. #3

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    Don't live in a vacuum. It would be in your "club's" best interest to:
    1. Not live in a vacuum. Jack from Ibex has been banned for 30 days and outside, there's an entire site against your group.
    2. Take the suggestions people are making, in an effort to maintain mtbr as a community for all, not for some.
    3. The f88ers are the least of your group's worries. The bulk of them are gone and in a place under their own rules. Let them be because it's over.

    There are many reasonable people being lumped into "bashing". I am not one of them. I have made an effort to be critical of the faults of both sides in this, and increasingly, I am finding myself with the rest of the forum, against Ibex due to the disgusting behavior of Jack, a so-called "nice guy" that uses the personal information of unhappy customers against them, and searches for information on those who don't like his practices. Prior to this, the problem was the posters of the Ibex forum, and their practices being construed as spam. Even educated criticisms were being dismissed by them as bashing.

    Antonio mentioned in another thread that mtbr can't ban everyone, and I'm sure many are willing at this point to be martyrs.

    Do the right thing.

  4. #4
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    Please let this stupid thing end. As much as you are the first to complain when non ibex owners come here. You started an thread that would obviously attract attention. Please, everyone just take their share of the blame and let this all end.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogonfr
    Nice one guess you guys are riding tomorrow aye.
    Yep, tomorrow. Looking forward to it too. Haven't be able to get a ride in all week and am dying here.
    Look, whatever happens, don't fight the mountain.

  6. #6
    thats right living legend
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    This is gonna get funny.

    Nice try JC.
    Can't stop, Won't stop.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    This is gonna get funny.

    Nice try JC.
    I agree, wheres that picture of the ostrich with its head in the sand? Everyone needs to address the issues that have been laid out and do their own part to correct the problems.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tunelvision
    I agree, wheres that picture of the ostrich with its head in the sand? Everyone needs to address the issues that have been laid out and do their own part to correct the problems.

    This is what makes me think it won't end. One side has decided to let things go and see if anything changes, while the other has refused to accept any responsiblity and continue doing what led to this. I wish a Mod would address this.

    if they don't want to talk to anyone except fellow Ibexians why do they even come to this website?

  9. #9
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    I just want to say thank you to all the [email protected]'s for posting in this thread...

    Per the OP- I'm now putting all of you of the ignore list... have a great day with your "struggle" to put down Ibex. You are only helping Ibex by drawing more attention to the company...there is no such thing as bad publicity.

  10. #10
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyJ
    Per the OP- I'm now putting all of you of the ignore list... have a great day with your "struggle" to put down Ibex. You are only helping Ibex by drawing more attention to the company...there is no such thing as bad publicity.
    That only appy's to celebrity's.

    Not the best for sales.
    Last edited by blackagness; 03-21-2008 at 02:31 PM.
    Can't stop, Won't stop.

  11. #11
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    No such thing as bad publicity, huh I had a guy read thru the craziness these past few days and pick a GT I-Drive from Performance Bike instead of an Ibex. You sure about that statement?

    Was the tire recall a good thing for Ford or Firestone? Yeah, this applies to celebrities in a celebrity-obsessed culture and even that has its limits. How do you think Michael Jackson's publicity affected him? Think he is appreciative of his publicity? People don't like shady stuff.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyJ
    Per the OP- I'm now putting all of you of the ignore list... have a great day with your "struggle" to put down Ibex. You are only helping Ibex by drawing more attention to the company...there is no such thing as bad publicity.
    Well, I don't totally agree. I was getting pretty close to getting a Burnt Orange Asta X9 for the wife to ride, (she loved the color, I liked the components & price) but after some of the stuff I have read on these forums, I am now going to get another Fuel EX, or a Trance X. I think the bikes are probably pretty good for what you pay, but I cannot support a company who's owner carries on and does some of the things Jack does. I'm not bashing, just stating what I have observed. Jesse.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    No such thing as bad publicity, huh I had a guy read thru the craziness these past few days and pick a GT I-Drive from Performance Bike instead of an Ibex. You sure about that statement?

    Was the tire recall a good thing for Ford or Firestone? Yeah, this applies to celebrities in a celebrity-obsessed culture and even that has its limits. How do you think Michael Jackson's publicity affected him? Think he is appreciative of his publicity? People don't like shady stuff.
    Just depends how good your PR dept is - Ford did a great job on the Firestone tire issue. I worked in a tire shop during all that madness- Ford was more to blame for the tire issue- only a small percentage of those tires were actually defective. Would you recommend 28 PSI on a 4500+ lbs 4x4 v8 SUV hauling a trailor? ford did, for perspective Geo Metro's usually run between 26 to 28 PSI. P-rated tires shouldn't have been put on those Explorers in the first place.
    Michael Jackass...Jackson is doing great in Asia- hell he was even able to buy Neverland back!
    I think your friend missed out on a great bike because of the BS on this board- and that's a shame..not to say the GT isn't a good bike either.

  14. #14
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    IBEX people/riders,

    For the love of GOD, STOP posting these stupid threads and replies.

    If you really like your bike go ride and STFU..

    TIA

    Jake

    PS Now, back to quiet time

    Much better
    <embed allowScriptAccess="never" src="https://www.heavy.com/ve/52e28ff4e67565a07943fef35d744220" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="512" height="512"></embed><div style="margin-top:5px;margin-left:30px;"><a href="https://www.heavy.com/channel/2090">More videos from the "Babealicous" channel at Heavy.com</a></div>

  15. #15
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    Ford closed three plants back then. It took 25,000 vehicles out of production and threw that into the recall to address consumer needs more quickly. It was a huge ripple effect; 25,000 vehicles times an average $22,000; you're looking at a 5 to 5 ˝ billion dollar decision. That was just for Ford. It cost Bridgestone $350 million dollars. What part of this is a good effect from bad publicity?

    Mikey isn't doing very well at all. He owes hundreds of millions of dollar to so many creditors. He just about manages to borrow and make enough to pay the most pressing debt and then starts trying to scrounge for more. His record sales have also been declining and declining. You think this is benefiting from bad publicity?

    Anyway, bad publicity is bad publicity, unless you happen to be Paris Hilton and Jack is no Paris.

  16. #16
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    FINE!! I will not share any info on that contact lens solution recall

    Thanks for the linky- good one for Friday.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Please let this stupid thing end. As much as you are the first to complain when non ibex owners come here. You started an thread that would obviously attract attention. Please, everyone just take their share of the blame and let this all end.

    We all just need to take a ride on the............
    <object width="400" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eEUKW99ohuw&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eEUKW99ohuw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="400" height="350"></embed></object>

  18. #18
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    aye. over the next week I don't really have any time to worry about all this mess because I've got a race coming up
    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky View Post
    My butthole would pucker and invert until I was inside-out before I got to the bottom.

  19. #19
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    Before I'd consider putting anyone on an ignore list, I'd like to find out which posters may actually have a legitimate issue with an Ibex bike that the company has refused to correct in the past year. I encourage anyone with such knowledge to post links.

    Since most of the hate in this forum stems from people asserting they've established their opinion of Ibex based poor quality reviews or personal experiences, finding the actual negative reviews or posts of legitimate quality issues by Ibex owners would be relevant to making an informed decision on exactly who is truthful and who is not.

    More recently, the naive assertion that a persons true identity can't be discovered or revealed on the Internet by anyone who obtains the information from any number of freely available sources, not to mention services that will locate people for a fee, is fueling a great deal of the current hate expressed toward Ibex and Jack in particular.

    People seem to believe they are entitled to a degree of personal privacy to say anything they want while hiding behind an alias. The fact is, most anyone using the Internet is traceable by perfectly legitimate and legal means, and realizing this fact is the first step to taking personal responsibility for what you say in a public forum.

    In any event, separating those with legitimate concerns from the trolls is the right way to use the "ignore" function.

    Anyone afraid of being identified on the Internet should not use it.
    Perhaps realizing this alone will stem much of the rhetoric and hate expressed in MTBR.

  20. #20
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    Honestly, I've only added 3 people to my ignore list, 1 of which was someone who doesn't even post in the Ibex forum, the other 2 are simply flame baiters and trolls. I still read all replies in my subscribed threads through my email, it just makes it easier to navigate through the forums.
    Btw, my initial post in this thread was highly sarcastic, if you didn't catch that.
    Look, whatever happens, don't fight the mountain.

  21. #21
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    Yes, I realized it.

    Even so, I have used the function on trolls in other forums.

    However, the current problems around MTBR seem to be much more politically based over a period of time rather than just one or two guys wanting to start fights anywhere they can...

  22. #22
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    Yes, I agree Tgorle. Some new accounts have been trolling and flaming, those were the ones I was reffering to. I'm not saying to ignore people because they have an issue or a problem. If thats the case the should and have been heard. It's the trolls that bug me.
    Look, whatever happens, don't fight the mountain.

  23. #23
    ride hard take risks
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    There must be privacy on the net its only a computor & you cant see me.
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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    More recently, the naive assertion that a persons true identity can't be discovered or revealed on the Internet by anyone who obtains the information from any number of freely available sources, not to mention services that will locate people for a fee, is fueling a great deal of the current hate expressed toward Ibex and Jack in particular.

    People seem to believe they are entitled to a degree of personal privacy to say anything they want while hiding behind an alias. The fact is, most anyone using the Internet is traceable by perfectly legitimate and legal means, and realizing this fact is the first step to taking personal responsibility for what you say in a public forum.


    So IF I were to post your name and address on a public forum that would be ok? How about your phone number? How about your wife and kids name? And your kids elementary school? Its all public information after all.


    Ok lets assume I'm not that bold and I just IMPLY that I have that information and IMPLY that I will use it if you don't do what I would like. This would be no big deal?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by explodingtaco


    So IF I were to post your name and address on a public forum that would be ok? How about your phone number? How about your wife and kids name? And your kids elementary school? Its all public information after all.


    Ok lets assume I'm not that bold and I just IMPLY that I have that information and IMPLY that I will use it if you don't do what I would like. This would be no big deal?
    Dont think that's what he meant. I have posted my name & phone number on line, I take down personal information every day including credit card # over a phone, we get orders over the net we dont but many companies sell this info for others to use at there discretion. It's a sad fact of life we have no privacy.
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  26. #26
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    This is not meant for any particular person here just a general statement.

    I think we all know about the "Ibex wars" last week and Jack's actions. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion. But right now its most important that we keep them to ourselves and move forward with making this a good community of MTB riders. Jack issued an apology, the Mods took some action. It is what it is. Lets stop arguing and debating it and move on!!!

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    This is not meant for any particular person here just a general statement.

    I think we all know about the "Ibex wars" last week and Jack's actions. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion. But right now its most important that we keep them to ourselves and move forward with making this a good community of MTB riders. Jack issued an apology, the Mods took some action. It is what it is. Lets stop arguing and debating it and move on!!!
    Ditto time to move on and heal..

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by explodingtaco


    So IF I were to post your name and address on a public forum that would be ok? How about your phone number? How about your wife and kids name? And your kids elementary school? Its all public information after all.


    Ok lets assume I'm not that bold and I just IMPLY that I have that information and IMPLY that I will use it if you don't do what I would like. This would be no big deal?
    The point is that the information is out there and available whether you like it or not.

    If everyone realized that their true identity can be traced, and therefore they can be sued for libel and slander, they'd be far more careful about presenting facts to support assertions or opinions before attacking a company or individual.

    Point being, you should have no expectation of anonymity in an Internet forum.

    In regards to the post by Ray Dolor above:
    Banning someone from posting freely available public information found elsewhere on the Internet may be the assumed right of the forum administrator, but it's arguably a wrongheaded form of censorship.

    To advertise the fact you have no right of privacy is perhaps the best method to enforce civility on behalf of the membership.

    My information is easily found by visiting my band website linked in my signature. Any registered owner of a website domain has their information published on the Internet. It is because I'm not hiding that you can trust I offer my opinions and assertions as if we were speaking face to face.
    Although I tend to write in far more thoughtful and civil language than I speak in person...
    Last edited by tgorle; 03-25-2008 at 09:48 AM.

  29. #29
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    Mods please lock this thread. It is no longing contributing anything and is going to escalate into the problems we've had in the past week.

  30. #30
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    paranoid?

    I believe this thread has contributed useful information that should be read and understood by everyone.
    It is in fact the best way to guarantee members moderate themselves from now on.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    paranoid?

    I hope that wasn't directed at me.

    Edit: Well if you are freely stating your opinion I'll state mine.

    Yes, I believe that we should all act on this site in the manner we would in person. But I also believe in privacy. Not for any of the reasons you want but because what if we anger an unstable person. Say you and I are in a political discussion about , maybe aborption, and we have very strongly differing views. I am unstable and see your address and attack you. its a real threat in today's world. One that you seem to be neglicting to think about.

    Also, we've been over this 100 times but I see you are justifying Jacks behavior. Jack went into customer records and found personal information. Maybe he should have posted the credit card numbers too? As I can verify and other members have said before, that is posted all over the walls of every office you will ever work at. That is at least against the companies policy and at most a serious crime.

    Also, opinions are not libel or slandor. I have only seen one person commit what could possibly be a crime here and that was Jack.

    Jack admitted he was wrong, and issued an apology. We have all decided to keep our views to ourselves but you seem intent on starting another firestorm here.

  32. #32
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    Lock it? NO..
    Move it to Site Feedback? YES..That is what it has become, rhetorical feedback..

    The MTBR community deserves a chance to heal after this fiasco..

  33. #33
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    If I were an MTBR admin, I'd make a statement about Internet privacy expectation into a sticky.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle


    If I were an MTBR admin, I'd make a statement about Internet privacy expectation into a sticky.
    Nice edit..lol

    So, PM/email one of the Administration> http://forums.mtbr.com/showgroups.php

    Francois and Gregg are on line right now...

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Jack issued an apology, the Mods took some action. It is what it is.
    No he did not. He apologized on behalf of the offended for being offended.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    If everyone realized that their true identity can be traced, and therefore they can be sued for libel and slander, they'd be far more careful about presenting facts to support assertions or opinions before attacking a company or individual.
    Slander? Libel? Ha . . . I have seen nothing even close on MTBR.
    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    In regards to the post by Ray Dolor above:
    Banning someone from posting freely available public information found elsewhere on the Internet may be the assumed right of the forum administrator, but it's arguably a wrongheaded form of censorship.
    What is not arguable? But the Admins do not have an "assumed" right, that have ABSOLUTE and COMPLETE right. They own the space this message is stored on and can do with it what they will, they can also ban anyone for any reason and have every right to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    Any registered owner of a website domain has their information published on the Internet.
    Most people have their information published, but not the owner of Ibex. This person who we assume to be the owner of Ibex and Ibexbikes.com (although cannot know for sure) is registered anonymously

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    I hope that wasn't directed at me.

    Edit: Well if you are freely stating your opinion I'll state mine.

    Yes, I believe that we should all act on this site in the manner we would in person. But I also believe in privacy. Not for any of the reasons you want but because what if we anger an unstable person. Say you and I are in a political discussion about , maybe aborption, and we have very strongly differing views. I am unstable and see your address and attack you. its a real threat in today's world. One that you seem to be neglicting to think about.

    Also, we've been over this 100 times but I see you are justifying Jacks behavior. Jack went into customer records and found personal information. Maybe he should have posted the credit card numbers too? As I can verify and other members have said before, that is posted all over the walls of every office you will ever work at. That is at least against the companies policy and at most a serious crime.

    Also, opinions are not libel or slandor. I have only seen one person commit what could possibly be a crime here and that was Jack.

    Jack admitted he was wrong, and issued an apology. We have all decided to keep our views to ourselves but you seem intent on starting another firestorm here.
    I never saw what Jack posted.
    I'm simply addressing the principle of posting previously published name/address/phone information found on the Internet. That we should have no expectation of privacy for information commonly found in a phone directory. And, that far more information is freely available in many Internet published State/County property records. Legal records are public records as well.

    An individual's personal financial and health information is guarded for obvious reasons.
    But, legalities aside, there is no guarantee it won't be published or exploited at any given time.

    But, back to your original post, I have to laugh at the irony that hoping a "paranoid?" comment wasn't directed at you was exemplified by definition in your response.

    Also, your concern that an unstable person should be feared is irrelevant when put into perspective. The fact that we're identifyable should inhibit arguments in the first place.
    If you choose to be fearful that anyone you converse with on the Internet might be an unstable individual, you have the freedom to not communicate or expose yourself to any such environment. Again, you are free to live in fear. That is your perogative.

    I had a very close friend with manic despression commit suicide after suffering prolonged Internet forum attacks. I know all too well what kind of damage can be done by people who believe they are anonymous and face no accountability for their malicious words and actions.


    Many people make assumptions without presenting any factual support.
    The definitions of Libel and Slander are very liberal.

    Libel - 1. Any written, printed, or pictoral statement that damages a person by defaming his character or exposing him to ridicule. 2. The act of presenting such a statement to the public.

    Slander - 1. The utterance of defamatory statements injurious to the reputation or well-being of a person.

    I submit the acknowledgement of these definitions would alter the communication style of many forum participants around here, and elsewhere. And, I believe any reasonable person taking these definitions literally would find numerous occurrances of libel throughout threads in MTBR. The primary thing that would need to be established in a Civil Court of Law would be the actual monetary damages resultant from such libel. Unless the damages can be proven to exceed the costs involved, most cases of libel won't be pursued.
    But, that doesn't mean it isn't happening, and that people here aren't guilty of it.
    The problem with the Internet is that some people mistakenly take for granted that it's a free for all.

    It all comes down to having the wisdom to cover your ass before you open your mouth.
    Last edited by tgorle; 03-25-2008 at 11:08 AM.

  37. #37

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    Just because public records are out there, it doesn't mean someone is freely allowed to use them for malicious purposes. WHen you shop with Ibex, it's pretty much understood and I'm sure it's backed by any court in the country, that you're not giving Jack your personal info so he can either commit a crime, fraud, or otherwise harass you using it.


    In terms of the management of the site, other bad events in history have put the burden of blame on people who did not take a stand and act accordingly to the warning signs of something happening. To some extent, it has resulted in hypersensitivity, but in some cases, it at least removes the burden of blame from those enabling the person exhibiting the bad behavior. This is not the only time this has happened. Last time, a mod simply closed the thread and let it be in an unfair fashion to the poster Jack was going up against. In any event, I don't think this is the last time Jack does something boneheaded.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    I never saw what Jack posted.
    I'm simply addressing the principle of posting previously published name/address/phone information found on the Internet. That we should have no expectation of privacy for information commonly found in a phone directory. And, that far more information is freely available in many Internet published State/County property records. Legal records are public records as well.

    An individual's personal financial and health information is guarded for obvious reasons.
    But, legalities aside, there is no guarantee it won't be published or exploited at any given time.

    But, back to your original post, I have to laugh at the irony that hoping a "paranoid?" comment wasn't directed at you was exemplified by definition in your response.

    Also, your concern that an unstable person should be feared is irrelevant when put into perspective. The fact that we're identifyable should inhibit arguments in the first place.
    If you choose to be fearful that anyone you converse with on the Internet might be an unstable individual, you have the freedom to not communicate or expose yourself to any such environment. Again, you are free to live in fear. That is your perogative.

    I had a very close friend with manic despression commit suicide after suffering prolonged Internet forum attacks. I know all too well what kind of damage can be done by people who believe they are anonymous and face no accountability for their malicious words and actions.


    Many people make assumptions without presenting any factual support.
    The definitions of Libel and Slander are very liberal.

    Libel - 1. Any written, printed, or pictoral statement that damages a person by defaming his character or exposing him to ridicule. 2. The act of presenting such a statement to the public.

    Slander - 1. The utterance of defamatory statements injurious to the reputation or well-being of a person.

    I submit the acknowledgement of these definitions would alter the communication style of many forum participants around here, and elsewhere. And, I believe any reasonable person taking these definitions literally would find numerous occurrances of libel throughout threads in MTBR. The primary thing that would need to be established in a Civil Court of Law would be the actual monetary damages resultant from such libel. Unless the damages can be proven to exceed the costs involved, most cases of libel won't be pursued.
    But, that doesn't mean it isn't happening, and that people here aren't guilty of it.
    The problem with the Internet is that some people mistakenly take for granted that it's a free for all.

    It all comes down to having the wisdom to cover your ass before you open your mouth.
    The irony of my paranoid comment wasn't lost on me. I'm glad we could agree on something.

    Honestly are discussions are getting very close to political. It won't be long until the Bill of Rights is brought up. You are debating the old debate of where freedom of speech ends and libel/slander begins.

    You seem to take the stance that everyone here is responsible for their own actions. I believe we have a resonable expecation of privacy. However, as I'm sure you are aware, I've been very critical of Jack. I did not say anything I wouldn't say to his face.

    You are debating a moot point that is really not the issue here. There is no way in hell anyone here is guilty of libel or slander. However, Jack broke the law. There is no way of defending that. The troubling thing is that he escalated a heated discussion to something it wasn't. What was the next step? Show up at that persons house? Don't overlook that point.

    Are you implying that I am living my life in fear? That is a bold acusation from someone that takes such a stand as yourself. Is the free speech or are you slandering?

    Yes it is possible to find out everything about people, but do you want it posted on the internet?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Just because public records are out there, it doesn't mean someone is freely allowed to use them for malicious purposes. WHen you shop with Ibex, it's pretty much understood and I'm sure it's backed by any court in the country, that you're not giving Jack your personal info so he can either commit a crime, fraud, or otherwise harass you using it.


    In terms of the management of the site, other bad events in history have put the burden of blame on people who did not take a stand and act accordingly to the warning signs of something happening. To some extent, it has resulted in hypersensitivity, but in some cases, it at least removes the burden of blame from those enabling the person exhibiting the bad behavior. This is not the only time this has happened. Last time, a mod simply closed the thread and let it be in an unfair fashion to the poster Jack was going up against. In any event, I don't think this is the last time Jack does something boneheaded.
    You've probably committed libel by asserting Jack is a bonehead and will be a bonehead in the future.... nice job. You have to prove malice by proving damages in your assertion, otherwise it's groundless.

    Theoretically, if I posted a guy's name and address in order to identify the individual who was attacking me behind an alias, the act of exposure of the real name is designed to hold the person accountable through peer pressure if nothing else. There is no malice as there is no cause of damages to that individual for being factually identified as who he/she is.
    If I decided to knock on his door and tell him face to face what I think of him, he can react however he chooses at that time. We will both be responsible for the consequences. Personal responsibility is an obligation to society.

    The very plea to withhold this kind of exposure would be to support an individual's right to instigate anonymous attacks resulting in libel. This is simply wrong.

    All in all, some people need to man up and start being responsible.
    Last edited by tgorle; 03-25-2008 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    You've committed libel by asserting Jack is a bonehead and will be a bonehead in the future.... nice job. You have to prove malice by proving damages in your assertion, otherwise it's groundless.

    If I posted a guy's name and address in order to identify the individual who was attacking me behind an alias, the act of exposure is designed to hold the person accountable through peer pressure if nothing else. There is no malice as there is no cause of damages to that individual for being factually identified as who he/she is.

    The very plea to withhold this kind of exposure would be to support an individual's right to instigate anonymous attacks resulting in libel. This is simply wrong.

    All in all, some people need to wake up and start being responsible.
    Seriously man, do you really think it was acceptable to post a users real name and address? Maybe its you that needs to wake up.

    I agree people should be responsible here but that is a bit extreme when you don't agree with someone's opinion. This is from soneone who doesn't even use their real name here.

    There was no libel. An opinion is not libel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Seriously man, do you really think it was acceptable to post a users real name and address? Maybe its you that needs to wake up.

    I agree people should be responsible here but that is a bit extreme when you don't agree with someone's opinion. This is from soneone who doesn't even use their real name here.

    There was no libel. An opinion is not libel.
    I've been critical of Jack on occasions as well, but no more than expressing an alternate opinion. Never to the point of personal attack.
    In a civilized society, differing opinions can be expressed in a civil manner.

    At the point an opinion degrades to character assualt or inciting public ridicule, it has exceeded the right of free speech and reached the boundaries of libel.

    You have the right to free speech, and you have the obligation and legal responsibility to face any consequences for those freely expressed words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    I've been critical of Jack on occasions as well, but no more than expressing an alternate opinion. Never to the point of personal attack.
    In a civilized society, differing opinions can be expressed in a civil manner.

    At the point an opinion degrades to character assualt or inciting public ridicule, it has exceeded the right of free speech and reached the boundaries of libel.

    You have the right to free speech, and you have the obligation and legally responsibility to face any consequences for those freely expressed words.
    Right. I agree with every word you said. But what you are arguing for is the dramatic escalation of an agrument like Jack has done.
    I'll give two examples.

    Example 1: If I call my doctor a horses @ss and a liar he is able to insult me call me names whatever. (This is fine and generally how our society works) Similiarly if I pulled a gun on my doctor he would be allowed to pull a gun on me. But pulling a gun on me for disagreeing is an unresonable escalation of the problem.

    Example 2: If i call my doctor names and he responds by posting my personal information in a public place. then he has commited a crime. Simliar to if I called my doctor names and he shot me. Again an unresonable escalation of an arguement.

    it is the ridiculous escalation of an arguement that is the problem, and I think you are missing that. I think it should be simliar to the laws of self defense. You are able to respond with appropriate force.

    It was a low blow by Jack and you are completely missing that. You are free to face the consequences of your actions. As long as the consequences are within reason

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Right. I agree with every word you said. But what you are arguing for is the dramatic escalation of an agrument like Jack has done.
    I'll give two examples.

    Example 1: If I call my doctor a horses @ss and a liar he is able to insult me call me names whatever. (This is fine and generally how our society works) Similiarly if I pulled a gun on my doctor he would be allowed to pull a gun on me. But pulling a gun on me for disagreeing is an unresonable escalation of the problem.

    Example 2: If i call my doctor names and he responds by posting my personal information in a public place. then he has commited a crime. Simliar to if I called my doctor names and he shot me. Again an unresonable escalation of an arguement.

    it is the ridiculous escalation of an arguement that is the problem, and I think you are missing that. I think it should be simliar to the laws of self defense. You are able to respond with appropriate force.

    It was a low blow by Jack and you are completely missing that. You are free to face the consequences of your actions. As long as the consequences are within reason
    Your logic fails to distinguish the private argument between you and your doctor versus the public argument within an Internet forum. If your private argument with your doctor was expressed on the Internet and you made public assertions that damaged the reputation of the Doctor publicly, you could be sued for libel.
    This is precisely why many court settlements contain non-disclosure agreements so that reputations are not further damaged beyond public record of the existance of the case itself by revealing the complete assortment of facts and charges therein.
    Last edited by tgorle; 03-25-2008 at 02:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    Your logic fails to distinguish the private argument between you and your doctor versus the public argument within an Internet forum. If your private argument with your doctor was expressed on the Internet and you made assertions that damaged the reputation of the Doctor publicly, you would be sued for libel.
    And if the details were true?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    Your logic fails to distinguish the private argument between you and your doctor versus the public argument within an Internet forum. If your private argument with your doctor was expressed on the Internet and you made assertions that damaged the reputation of the Doctor publicly, you would be sued for libel.
    BS, you are missing the big picture. For example. how many protestors (in public) do you see saying negative things about abortion clinics, nuclear plants, hell even windmills in PA are being heavily protested. That is NOT libel. Those protestors rarely have true facts, do the companies fire back, yes occansionaly they do. How many times are protestors sued? Ever read the readers comments in the newspapers? How often are those people sued? I think I've even seen people walk through Washington DC with hateful things to say about the US goverment. Are they all sued too?


    You are failing to take a rational veiw on this. You are merely twisting facts to prove your viewpoint and you are making a weak arguement.

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    The person whos name was put out I dont believe bought a Ibex bike.
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    The one was 2006 was. He had a thread where Jack searched for his personal information that is NOT publically available, including his professional credentials, then waved them on the board in a seemingly subtle manner to anyone but himself and the customer, making sure the dissatisfied customer was not going to win his debate with Jack. The case was that Jack used his personal information given to him as a customer to perform a background search and then "win" an internet argument about the customer not liking the Ibex experience.

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    BS?
    Well, you're entitled to your opinion of what constitutes a rational view or weak argument.
    I'm just using common sense combined with an above average IQ.

    Public protests are within our rights as members of this society. Still, when a protestor breaks the law, he/she is subject to arrest at the sole discretion of the arresting party. Still, with your claims of what is libel and what is not based on public protests, you fail to present an equitable example.

    Oftentimes, the decision to file a lawsuit is based on whether it is in the would-be plaintiff's best interests to create a public record determining the true facts for disclosure. Many companies may feel that tolerating local public protests are preferable to a legal inquiry which may result in far wider media attention and resultant negative publicity on a far larger scale should the facts bear out and possibly magnify the protestor's actual claims. This is why they are inclined to settle 95% of every civil claim before it goes to trial.

    Speaking of politics, the Bush Administration has been violating our individual civil liberties and privacy for years now under the guise of anti-terrorism, even going to the extent of attempting to make the communication industry exempt from any liability in their wrongdoing by conspiring in illegal wiretapping and eavesdropping of the American public. Every phone call and email in this country is being recorded. Your claim to privacy being honored in this forum should be the absolute least of your concerns.

    Now, the government's argument that only those with something to hide need to be worried should apply equally to your stance here. You can't have it both ways, pal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    And if the details were true?
    Truth, or a reasonable expectation of establishing the truth, would most likely be determined by the plaintiff's attorney at the time a lawsuit is being contemplated by the plaintiff. If they decide to pursue legal action, the truth will be determined during trial, with the possibility of providing at least partial vindication of the defendant. I would suspect that even if some facts are on the side of the attacker, the degree at which a reasonable statement of the facts descends into derogatory public defamation resulting in libel is something that the court decides on a case by case basis.
    In other words, situations may arise where a person with the facts on his side takes his zealotry too far and ultimately gets himself into trouble.

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    It's also notoriously hard to prove libel and slander.

    Notoriously hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    It's also notoriously hard to prove libel and slander.

    Notoriously hard.
    Yes, it is.

    And there are examples where a guy doing a stupid thing can win a defamation lawsuit. For example, the old WSU football coach gets hired at Alabama and then gets caught with strippers at a party, resulting in his firing when the story was broke by Sports Illustrated. Everything in the Sports Illustrated story was allegedly true. Still, Mike Price was awarded $20 million in damages resulting from their publication of that story that cost him his job.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    BS?
    Well, you're entitled to your opinion of what constitutes a rational view or weak argument.
    I'm just using common sense combined with an above average IQ.

    Public protests are within our rights as members of this society. Still, when a protestor breaks the law, he/she is subject to arrest at the sole discretion of the arresting party. Still, with your claims of what is libel and what is not based on public protests, you fail to present an equitable example.

    Oftentimes, the decision to file a lawsuit is based on whether it is in the would-be plaintiff's best interests to create a public record determining the true facts for disclosure. Many companies may feel that tolerating local public protests are preferable to a legal inquiry which may result in far wider media attention and resultant negative publicity on a far larger scale should the facts bear out and possibly magnify the protestor's actual claims. This is why they are inclined to settle 95% of every civil claim before it goes to trial.

    Speaking of politics, the Bush Administration has been violating our individual civil liberties and privacy for years now under the guise of anti-terrorism, even going to the extent of attempting to make the communication industry exempt from any liability in their wrongdoing by conspiring in illegal wiretapping and eavesdropping of the American public. Every phone call and email in this country is being recorded. Your claim to privacy being honored in this forum should be the absolute least of your concerns.

    Now, the government's argument that only those with something to hide need to be worried should apply equally to your stance here. You can't have it both ways, pal.
    Well it doesn't seem that that post is even directly addressing the original topic we were talking about but I'll respond

    I hope you aren't implying you are more intelligent than me.... I'll leave it there. Like I said before, I have no time for internet tough guys

    Though my examples of libel are a stretch(I'll agree). I don't see one example from you either. The fact is its a tough thing. Thats why you don't hear much about it.

    Since you bring my political views into it. I'll do the obviously stupid thing and tell you want I think rather than what you claim I think. I am registered as a libertarian. Look up what our views are before you make claims about my personal beliefs, pal. So my beliefs there say that free speech is exactly that. I'm not the one pushing for legal action from anyone. You are the one throwing terms like libel and slander around.

    Perhaps you are the one who can't have it both ways. You are saying posting personal information is alright, but talking negative about a company is wrong. You can't have it both ways pal.

    I am guessing you are opposed to free speech then?

    Like I said before weak. You are very skilled at internet arguements since you can focuse on a few points and make strong case while completely glazing over other parts of the story.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    Yes, it is.

    And there are examples where a guy doing a stupid thing can win a defamation lawsuit. For example, the old WSU football coach gets hired at Alabama and then gets caught with strippers at a party, resulting in his firing when the story was broke by Sports Illustrated. Everything in the Sports Illustrated story was allegedly true. Still, Mike Price was awarded $20 million in damages resulting from their publication of that story that cost him his job.

    Ha! that is crap!!! first of all you shouldn't be fired for going to a strip club!!!! and second of all you shouldn't "win" $20 million for getting fired!!!!


    If this thread is going to evolve into a discussion about libel/slander/privacy/frivolous lawsuits... I'm in!!!


    there should be no expectation of privacy outside of your own home (and yard)... not in your car, workplace, park, store, or internet forum...

    I advocate privacy for doctors/patients, merchant/customer, library, and political voting...

    if information was posted from a business transaction between a merchant and a customer... that is wrong. Even if the information announced was public knowledge else wear. The problem w/ the incident that has resulted in this thread is that it is more likely that the info was only derived from another forum... not a business transaction. And the sole purpose of the "info" was to prove a point. A point that was lost in anger and frustration. I believe it came out very wrong and was taken a completely different way than Jack wanted... And the Mods stepped in to do some damage control, which is why they are so necessary. They cleaned up the mud-slinging party that we created.

    I should be able to state whatever I want in this forum... But, I should also be cognizant of what results will come of it. And I must be responsible for how other people respond to my statement... am I just trying to get a rise? or do I have a point to put across? If I have a point I must present it in a form that will result in understanding and contemplation, not anger and frivolous tirades.

    Free speech is not a trade-off because someone important says it is... it is a trade off because others will respond in both positive and negative ways to what one says.
    "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!..." -- Dennis the Peasant

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Well it doesn't seem that that post is even directly addressing the original topic we were talking about but I'll respond
    I think we may agree that the OP's point was made and addressed appropriately. This thread may now grow into a fruitful discussion on the many nuances of the balance of privacy and free speech as it relates to an online forum.

    P.S. I'd be much happier to debate that... as opposed to whatever we were trying to do last week
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    Keep in mind that the time we are referring to was when Jack posted the information of a former customer. Not when he posted the info on blackagnes

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Keep in mind that the time we are referring to was when Jack posted the information of a former customer. Not when he posted the info on blackagnes

    gotcha twas not cool to do so...
    "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!..." -- Dennis the Peasant

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    I'm just using common sense combined with an above average IQ.
    Not only is this highly doubtful, but down right nonsensical, I do not believe for one second that you have an above average IQ. In fact I think you are a moron. You argue by taking things to the extreme, and you use your own loose translation to "prove" your argument. You sir only prove you are average at best and most likely that is a stretch.

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    Ok, now sue me for libel. You know you want to except you could not win.

    (FYI: I didn't mean anything in the previous post, just proving a point. But to call yourself "above average" is a little weak, let other people do that . . . carry on. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    ...
    I hope you aren't implying you are more intelligent than me...
    There you go again... hoping.

    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    ...Since you bring my political views into it. I'll do the obviously stupid thing and tell you want I think rather than what you claim I think....
    You made your political views clear by your protest analogy. Obviously stupid? Perhaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Perhaps you are the one who can't have it both ways. You are saying posting personal information is alright, but talking negative about a company is wrong. You can't have it both ways pal.
    I never said talking negative about a company was wrong.
    This isn't much of a challenge when you don't pay attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    I am guessing you are opposed to free speech then?
    Nope. I'm opposed to Internet trolls. Are you paying attention yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Like I said before weak. You are very skilled at internet arguements since you can focuse on a few points and make strong case while completely glazing over other parts of the story.
    Thanks...

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    aaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhhh.... well it was looking like an intelligent twist, but alas...
    "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!..." -- Dennis the Peasant

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgorle
    There you go again... hoping.


    You made your political views clear by your protest analogy. Obviously stupid? Perhaps.


    I never said talking negative about a company was wrong.
    This isn't much of a challenge when you don't pay attention.


    Nope. I'm opposed to Internet trolls. Are you paying attention yet?


    Thanks...

    There you go. You proved what almost everybody here already knew about you. To bring this back on topic I will be trying out the ignore feature on you. I can get mindless babble on plenty of other forums. I don't need it here

    For everyone else: I will gladly debate these issues with you. Just please present intelligent arguments. havnmonkey, I'm looking in your direction You seemed eager to intelligently argue this

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    i think it's outta gas... I can't really debate "he said... she said " very well... my area of expertise is debating the philosophy behind the reasonings... not really into debating the people...

    well, shoot... Here's one if I may (since I feel that the OP won't mind): The city adjacent to the one I work for just enacted a "no baggy-pants ordinance"...

    "I've seen a lot of styles come and go, but I ain't seen no style like this one yet,"
    ----hmmmm, grammar anyone????

    and this is how I think it relates to the above debated topic:"We think that the community has a right to define what indecent exposure is," quotes from Riviera Beach Mayor Thomas Masters:

    http://www.wpbf.com/news/15565430/de...subid=10101641

    i think this is utter absurdity... How can I make a law telling you that your pants are too saggy and I can see your boxer shorts?????? unless they are bare-assed I don't think this will fly in court.

    However, I don't wear my pants hanging off my ass and I do think it is moronic... but that's just my opinion and why I wear a belt... But the community decided w/ 72% of the vote So is the ordinance justified if it is supported by nearly three quarters of the local voters?
    "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!..." -- Dennis the Peasant

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    There you go. You proved what almost everybody here already knew about you. To bring this back on topic I will be trying out the ignore feature on you. I can get mindless babble on plenty of other forums. I don't need it here

    For everyone else: I will gladly debate these issues with you. Just please present intelligent arguments. havnmonkey, I'm looking in your direction You seemed eager to intelligently argue this
    Dascro, you either have trouble following a comprehensive thought process, or simply can't acknowledge losing the debate, so you assert an incorrect interpretation of what you think I said and then fire blanks.

    And taco boy... I'm not going to enter an argument with troll bait.
    Bring something to the table, or carry enough breadcrumbs to find your way home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by havnmonkey
    i think it's outta gas... I can't really debate "he said... she said " very well... my area of expertise is debating the philosophy behind the reasonings... not really into debating the people...

    well, shoot... Here's one if I may (since I feel that the OP won't mind): The city adjacent to the one I work for just enacted a "no baggy-pants ordinance"...

    "I've seen a lot of styles come and go, but I ain't seen no style like this one yet,"
    ----hmmmm, grammar anyone????

    and this is how I think it relates to the above debated topic:"We think that the community has a right to define what indecent exposure is," quotes from Riviera Beach Mayor Thomas Masters:

    http://www.wpbf.com/news/15565430/de...subid=10101641

    i think this is utter absurdity... How can I make a law telling you that your pants are too saggy and I can see your boxer shorts?????? unless they are bare-assed I don't think this will fly in court.

    However, I don't wear my pants hanging off my ass and I do think it is moronic... but that's just my opinion and why I wear a belt... But the community decided w/ 72% of the vote So is the ordinance justified if it is supported by nearly three quarters of the local voters?
    Yeah I've been following this one on the news. I can't figure it out on several levels.
    I'm sure we've all seen this, and I see some moron with their pants hanging low and some type of boxer shorts showing underneath. I agree it looks dumb but how can anyone decide its offensive. What blows my mind what else is apparently still allowed. Ever see a girl wearing there pants at a normal level and a thong showing(not that I mind in some cases) what about some of those tops women wear. They barely cover anything.

    I know NOTHING about the area they did this in but it seems like they are doing it as a "catch-all" to harass a certain group. Is there a lot of gang activity? Maybe they plan to use this when they see several suspected gang members hanging out so they can generally harass them. I don't think its about seeing some patterned fabric of boxer shorts. If this holds up, where does it stop. No grateful dead shirts? no skater clothing, bike shorts or rock and roll shirts?

    It's a pretty disturbing idea that apparently is one step away from a free society and towards an 1984 world where we all wear uniforms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Ever see a girl wearing there pants at a normal level and a thong showing(not that I mind in some cases) what about some of those tops women wear. They barely cover anything.
    This is considered excellent taste & great exercises for the imagination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogonfr
    This is considered excellent taste & great exercises for the imagination.
    Oh I agree. But move up here to western PA and tell me how you feel about it. I'd say out of 100 women i see dressed like that, only 10 should be dressed like that The rest would be better off wearing a muumuu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    Oh I agree. But move up here to western PA and tell me how you feel about it. I'd say out of 100 women i see dressed like that, only 10 should be dressed like that The rest would be better off wearing a muumuu.
    Not if you go to State College.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    I know NOTHING about the area they did this in but it seems like they are doing it as a "catch-all" to harass a certain group. Is there a lot of gang activity? Maybe they plan to use this when they see several suspected gang members hanging out so they can generally harass them. I don't think its about seeing some patterned fabric of boxer shorts. If this holds up, where does it stop. No grateful dead shirts? no skater clothing, bike shorts or rock and roll shirts?

    It's a pretty disturbing idea that apparently is one step away from a free society and towards an 1984 world where we all wear uniforms.
    Ummmm... I don't think the Mayor's purpose is to fight the gangs in the area, I think a bunch of the citizens really want to "better" this troubled city... I've met a lot of the citizens who are active in the community and they are indeed trying to bring their city out of the stinkhole it sits in.

    However, that being said it is a predominately black area w/ a VERY large gang population... In fact I would argue that the all the cities in this area have some of the most dangerous streets in the country (per capita)... And yes it definitely would give me another tool to use against the overwhelming presence of gangbangers and dealers in the area... However I really don't feel it is constitutional.

    To give you an idea of the violence... I can't go to work w/ out hearing a "shots-fired" call each day... now, granted that most of the time there are no injuries and all involved parties are nowhere in the area and all the witnesses in the area say "I didn't see nuthin' man" (seriously you can count on having no witness 90% of the time). But I'd say once a week we find a victim stumbling down the street w/ a couple holes in him... and of course he says "I didn't see nuthin' man."

    But, back to the "indecency" topic; Riviera Beach is really trying to better itself. Whether it will work or not (I have serious doubts) is to be seen...
    "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!..." -- Dennis the Peasant

  69. #69
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    I've heard that from some of my friends. They all eagerly await the first warm days of spring for the scenery. Maybe its worth the 3 hour trip, ride some trails and see some wonderful state college scenery.

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    State College has some of the best trails in the country, IMO, and it's much of a well kept secret. A humble approach to things.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    I've heard that from some of my friends. They all eagerly await the first warm days of spring for the scenery. Maybe its worth the 3 hour trip, ride some trails and see some wonderful state college scenery.

    hmmm... yes I've seen the good ...but I've also noticed an alarming trend in the spring break crowd... get ready for it.... okay here it is....skinny girls in halter tops and tight pants and Natty Light guts yeah, they weigh 110 lbs but 15 of 'em hang over their fashionably large belts quite the turn off...
    "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!..." -- Dennis the Peasant

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by havnmonkey
    hmmm... yes I've seen the good ...but I've also noticed an alarming trend in the spring break crowd... get ready for it.... okay here it is....skinny girls in halter tops and tight pants and Natty Light guts yeah, they weigh 110 lbs but 15 of 'em hang over their fashionably large belts quite the turn off...
    I've seen that too. Very scary

    Since this is already so far off topic I'll drag it further.

    I'm not sure what a beer gut is. is there something in beer that gives you a large stomach, or is it just the additional calories that make you put on weight everywhere? Please someone shed some light on this mystery.

    I am concerned because I drink a fair amount of beer I stay in great shape and am a pretty solid 6'1'' 190lbs. But if I don't stop will I suddenly have a big stomach on my otherwise fit body?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dascro
    I've seen that too. Very scary

    Since this is already so far off topic I'll drag it further.

    I'm not sure what a beer gut is. is there something in beer that gives you a large stomach, or is it just the additional calories that make you put on weight everywhere? Please someone shed some light on this mystery.

    I am concerned because I drink a fair amount of beer I stay in great shape and am a pretty solid 6'1'' 190lbs. But if I don't stop will I suddenly have a big stomach on my otherwise fit body?

    only if you start wearing Ed Hardy halter tops and Jnco pants hanging down so low that we all can see your Winnie the Pooh under britches.
    "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!..." -- Dennis the Peasant

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