When tubless tires burb, it hurts.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    When tubless tires burb, it hurts.

    It was a typical ride up past Sand Point on my SASS with 650b Kenda Nevegal 2.35 tubeless tires. Reduce the pressure to about 25lbs in the front tire and ride down. I was still feeling chipper, I decided to ride the single tracks that parallel the last mile of the fire road. Halfway back, there is a steep downhill; it's as wide as the fire road with lots of roots, very uneven, and highly rutted. 2/3 the way down my front tire slid into a rut; I heard a pop and I was airborne. My left forearm took the brunt of the landing, and even then it was only a couple of inches of road rash, but the fall was entirely unexpected (the tire should have just rolled out of the rut). I checked the bike over, and there was no apparent damage, until I noticed the front tire was flat. Hmmmm, never had a flat with my tubless tires before. I checked the rut and saw what was probably the culprit; a hooked shape root (ask your GF or wife to show you the end of a crochet hook for reference). My guess is the root managed to dislodge the bead from the No Tubes Rim and the rapid loss of air from the 2.35 tire resulted in the immediate cessation of forward movement. This theory was confirmed when I re-filled the tire with air. The first C02 cartridge filled it up halfway, but the tire was loosing air. The second resulted in the snapping sound of the bead re-seating in the rim and the holding of air. So, neither my bike or I are pretty much no worse for wear. There is a pain and dark area in the first knuckle of my right ring finger (no ring) that I can't explain, but I'll take it over a dislocated finger any day. So I guess there are four modes of Singlespeed; peddling, resting, walking, and falling; pretty much in order of occurrence.
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  2. #2
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    I was riding along, got about an inch off the edge of the trail into the weeds, and a root like you described grabbed my wheel and tossed me on the ground. Had nothing to do with burping the tire in my case. It was like hitting a wall. Ouch.
    Chasing bears through the woods drunk with a dull hatchet is strongly not advised

  3. #3
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    Man that sucks. I caught a hole that was covered by tall grass while cutting the inside of a turn yesterday on my first rigid ride. It was enough to knock my weight back and caused me to catch a slap in the nads from my saddle. You know, enough to send that nice feeling up into your gut and cause you to slow down and take a few breaths. I would have rather fallen given my circumstances!

  4. #4
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    this happened to isuckatriding not too long ago.
    thats why i have tubes in my wheels.

  5. #5
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    tubeless*

  6. #6
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    Precisely

    Quote Originally Posted by veloreality
    this happened to isuckatriding not too long ago.
    thats why i have tubes in my wheels.
    +1.

    Happened twice recently to my roommate. Not good either time.

    Personally I run tubes.

    --Sparty
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    We get old because we quit riding.

  7. #7
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    Sounds more like pilot error than a mechanical. What ever lets you sleep at night...
    BBI certified, 12+ years as mechanic

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by djriddle
    Sounds more like pilot error than a mechanical. What ever lets you sleep at night...
    you may be right.................but you sound like a bitter little BI^CH.
    maybe leave the 'sleep at night' part out next time
    EricN
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    you may be right.................but you sound like a bitter little BI^CH.
    maybe leave the 'sleep at night' part out next time
    You are the one calling names. Dropping the pressure in tubeless leads to all kinds of issues - but what do I know I'm just a bicycle mechanic.
    BBI certified, 12+ years as mechanic

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by djriddle
    You are the one calling names. Dropping the pressure in tubeless leads to all kinds of issues - but what do I know I'm just a bicycle mechanic.
    yeah, apparently BBI certified for 12+ years.............................

    the point I was making was about the 'sleep at night' comment.
    it smacks of condescending and arrogant judgement of a situation that you were not witness or participant of.

    I am sure you were just having fun, but the tone of the post was easily misinterpreted.
    like it or not, many people dislike bike shop mechanics for this EXACT type of behavior.
    I am sure you are much more a diplomat for your profession than that, so I was simply trying to bring to your attention something that I would have found personally offensive (coming from a professional as yourself) if it were in fact a serious comment.
    EricN
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  11. #11
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    Obviously we are getting off on the wrong foot. The post seems to implicate the tire while indicating a tire pressure below what is recomended. I was pointing out this irony with sarcasm. The next time someone drops their tire pressure so low that their tire comes off the rim it could be a physically crippling event or a loss of life.

    Would you call someone smart for playing Russian roulette and/or call someone else names for telling them not to?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by djriddle
    Obviously we are getting off on the wrong foot. The post seems to implicate the tire while indicating a tire pressure below what is recomended. I was pointing out this irony with sarcasm. The next time someone drops their tire pressure so low that their tire comes off the rim it could be a physically crippling event or a loss of life.

    Would you call someone smart for playing Russian roulette and/or call someone else names for telling them not to?
    Agreed. Less than 30PSI and your asking for trouble. These are not "runflats" guys. When the pressure is low its very easy to break the bead/seal.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9
    Agreed. Less than 30PSI and your asking for trouble. These are not "runflats" guys. When the pressure is low its very easy to break the bead/seal.
    I went back to tubes for that reason. Ghetto tubeless was letting me run as low as 20psi on rocks on a rigid bike ridden by a 195lb rider. I was very impressed, until I started noticing how many tiny burps I was getting on harder hits even at my normal pressures (mid to upper 20s) and a bit freaked when I heard and felt the bead unseat on one particular turn. It didn't even burp much air, but it was enough to toss me. Tubes seem to be a bit better job at locking the bead against the rim compared to ghetto. I would like to try UST or another tubeless system like Bontragers though.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by djriddle
    Obviously we are getting off on the wrong foot. The post seems to implicate the tire while indicating a tire pressure below what is recomended. I was pointing out this irony with sarcasm. The next time someone drops their tire pressure so low that their tire comes off the rim it could be a physically crippling event or a loss of life.

    Would you call someone smart for playing Russian roulette and/or call someone else names for telling them not to?
    agreed, but let's be honest here................
    the whole point of tubless is the ability to run LOWER pressure; MUCH LOWER than manufac spec in fact.
    do many on these boards follow that spec? maybe.
    I personally run my tubed tires less than manufac recommendations.
    (less than the OP on my tubed front even)
    is there a reason for the specs, sure.
    are there many running 'ghetto' tubeless on non recommended tire, absolutely.
    will people do things that are considered unsafe, or not recommended with their mountain bikes and equipment.............as much as possible usually.

    I think the point of the post was to cite a situation where a catastrophic bead loss, resulting in an instataneous FLAT is extremely pernicious.

    the premise being:
    a tubless tire in said event, does NOT behave the same way a tire with a tube would.
    I would argue a tubed tire would NOT have had the same result if the bead had slipped (as in the case of a tubless setup)
    a catastrophic deflation at speed is trouble for ANY tire; however in this case, I believe the premise that a ‘hooked’ root was sufficient to unseat the bead of said tire and cause a violent crash.
    a tubed tire would not be AS susceptible to this particular failure.
    not to say that a tubed tire could not fail in a dangerous manner, just not in this particular case.

    the whole point of this website is to ‘Review’ products and share experience of certain setups.
    Mountain biking can and IS AN EXTREMELY dangerous activity; consequently it is nice to have information about ‘issues’ that can potentially have negative effects on your equipment and personal safety.

    you play Russian Roulette everyday you throw a leg over your bike.
    We do it despite the fact it is unsafe………………in many (if not most) cases because of it.

    so I guess I just want you to see that even though we may not have the knowledge of equipment you shop employees do, most of us share a passion for this thing that can literally take us to the edge, and possibly injure and permanently change our lives.
    I personally want to know as much as I can about the durability and performance of equipment………………..especially the type that is NOT used within the narrow verbiage that lawyers have crafted for the liability sticker.
    don’t hate on us because we are trying to be unsafe as possible, safely as possible.
    you know what I mean??
    EricN
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  15. #15
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    Wow, thanks Mr Salty, you said it as well as I could. I guess the mechanics need more information. My wheel choice was a Stans No Tubes ZTR 355 650b. One of Stans claims is their rim socket is more aggressive and holds the bead more securely. I chose the Kenda Nevegal 2.35 tires because of their volume, aggressive tread, they are on the recommended list from Stans and face it 650b tire choices are pretty thin. My plan was to run low pressure in the front tire with a rigid fork. While 25 lbs may sound low, as Mr Salty said, low pressure is a reason to buy tubeless. Yes the Nevegals are rated minimum 30 lbs, I don't think that means the tire will jump off the rim at 28 lbs. Combining a large volume tire, which tolerate lower pressures, the aggressive rim socket and the nature of tubeless tires, I still have no fear continuing running the tires @ 25 lbs. I have been running with this setup for over 6 months on some extremely rough terrain with no problems at all. If there is a weakness it's there is not a tube pushing the tire bead into the socket, so If you run into a punji stick, tubeless will knock out the bead and tubed will likely puncture the sidewall. Either way the technical nature of the trail and a flat tire would assuredly have resulted in a crash. Next time I will likely go with a wire bead, which Stans recommends on 29er conversions. Oh, and BTW this doesn't even exist in the same matrix as "smart".
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    agreed, but let's be honest here................
    ...
    you know what I mean??
    Well freakin' said.

    Personally I've never run tubeless because I have no desire to run pressures that low. At my weight and riding style I've folded tires at pressures that are generally only considered attainable with tubeless. Why would I want to run so low that my tire would fold? And frankly I don't quite get it... I'm only 195#, 6'3"... is it my "high" center of gravity? Assertive riding style? It doesn't seem like my weight would be the cause... I'm fairly skinny for my height.

    As for living on the edge, yeah Babies, that's what I'm talkin' about! Oh hell yes, the thrill of bringin' it to the edge and then back again gets the blood pumpin' bigtime. I'll take all o' that I can get and yes, I've paid the price a few times (4 busted ribs so far, etc., etc.)

    As for shop "mechanics" I would never malign anyone by painting with a broad brush but I will say I've been in bike shops... supposedly reputable ones... where it didn't take long to figure out that I knew more than the person I was talking to, and in some cases I was out and out lied to, whether knowingly or not (it doesn't matter).

    Also had my a$$ saved a few times by amazingly knowledgeable shop employees.

    "Everyday riders"... well the truth is some of us are so neck deep in this awesome sport of mountain biking that our passion simply takes us there... and farther yet... and takes our wallets there, too... and ruins our marriages... etc., etc...

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    We get old because we quit riding.

  17. #17
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    I don't work in a bike shop anymore, but that doesn't change the fact that I have around 25,000 hours experience doing professionally what most people on here do as a hobby. Of course that time hack doesn't include at least that many hours riding hardtails, fullies, single speeds, BMX, road, etc. in five states during my life. I do not own a car.

    While Salty seems to think there is some kind of hostility on my part towards the community, I could argue that with the thousands of bicycles I have repaired and sold that I have been and continue to be a part of the community in a way he will never understand. Anyone who came into the shops that I have been service manager of knew that I would only allow safe and reliable bicycles to leave my shop. We saved many lives. When I lived in Colorado Springs I did work for USA Triathalon, the Olympic Training Center (road, track and MTB) and where ever I worked I was sought out as a mechanic by sponsored and unsponsored professionals because they cannot afford mechanical failures. I've built more custom bikes and custom wheels than I can remember. I was once offered a job at BBI and had to turn it down because I had just broken my left arm in a mountain bike crash such that I needed two screws in my left elbow (funny bone) - I was in a cast for 16 weeks and the doctor took off the cast not because I was healed but because I needed to start moving the joint. I have so many scars on my body from cycling that I sometimes can't remember where I got them all. I once hit 73 mph on a road bike going south on 67 from Cripple Creek, Colorado to Divide in a hail storm. I rode 58 miles, some of it on the Contintal Divide in one day on a single speed on the Monarch and Rainbow trails west of Salida, Colorado. I dream about wrenching and/or riding at least weekly and every time I drink a beer I forget more about bicycles than most people will ever know about them.

    If you have hostility towards me and the way I think about bikes then you have hostility toward cycling. Despite the idea that bikes make us rebels, the truth is that few things are more conformist that riding a bike that doesn't work right while being too ignorant to know the difference. From three year old kids who were riding before they could walk to 98 year old former world class racers I have always sought to make the rider's experience better. I did it so I could share my love of this sport, not to exclude anyone from it. Shame on anyone who says otherwise.
    BBI certified, 12+ years as mechanic

  18. #18
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    Overqualified.

    And no fun.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by djriddle

    If you have hostility towards me and the way I think about bikes then you have hostility toward cycling. Despite the idea that bikes make us rebels, the truth is that few things are more conformist that riding a bike that doesn't work right while being too ignorant to know the difference. From three year old kids who were riding before they could walk to 98 year old former world class racers I have always sought to make the rider's experience better. I did it so I could share my love of this sport, not to exclude anyone from it. Shame on anyone who says otherwise.
    Your kidding right? I'm guessing you are overstating your world view a bit and "me thinks you protest too much". Your profile say you are in the Army. That is much more impressive to me; god bless you and keep you safe. Oh and cut back on the beer a little too.
    Last edited by aka brad; 06-18-2010 at 12:45 PM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    There is a pain and dark area in the first knuckle of my right ring finger (no ring) that I can't explain, but I'll take it over a dislocated finger any day.
    Turns out I did dislocate the finger, well hyper-extended it anyway; I finally reset it and it feels much better.
    Last edited by aka brad; 06-18-2010 at 12:43 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    ... Yes the Nevegals are rated minimum 30 lbs, I don't think that means the tire will jump off the rim at 28 lbs. Combining a large volume tire, which tolerate lower pressures, the aggressive rim socket and the nature of tubeless tires, I still have no fear continuing running the tires @ 25 lbs. ...
    Hasn't your set-up just communicated a message to you?

    I run converted tubeless, and low pressure (only in specific instances). But I also believe that there is such a wide range of conversion possibilities/terrain/riding styles, that you have to find what works for you. When your set-up talks back, you may want to listen; figure out how to not be in that position again.

    (Nevegals have great grip) X (low pressure) = super-duper grip + (wide tire + thinner profile rim) + rut + root = ?

    Tubeless also works very well at "normal" pressure. Better than tubed (pressures being equal), IMHO.

    Not saying it's a bad set-up, just that a result happened. (as you felt )

    Healing vibes to ya.

    P

  22. #22
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    aaah the friday night ss forum fights.
    tubes rule!! stan's drools! (or rather, burps)


    ok, but seriously... like mr P said, your setup just gave you a message dude... when your tire folds over or rips itself off the rim, you're running the wrong psi.
    hooked root may have torn the tire off regardless, but if the tire's carcass is under less tension because of lower psi, it's more likely to pop off because it won't be able to resist as well. more tension in the sidewalls may have prevented the tire from wedging itself in as much. (may not, but it bears consideration)
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    Turns out I did dislocate the finger, well hyper-extended it anyway; I finally reset it and it feels much better.

    NICE............glad it is a minor reminder of gravity.
    Keep on doing your thing
    EricN
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by djriddle
    I don't work in a bike shop anymore, but that doesn't change the fact that I have around 25,000 hours experience doing professionally what most people on here do as a hobby. Of course that time hack doesn't include at least that many hours riding hardtails, fullies, single speeds, BMX, road, etc. in five states during my life. I do not own a car.

    While Salty seems to think there is some kind of hostility on my part towards the community, I could argue that with the thousands of bicycles I have repaired and sold that I have been and continue to be a part of the community in a way he will never understand. Anyone who came into the shops that I have been service manager of knew that I would only allow safe and reliable bicycles to leave my shop. We saved many lives. When I lived in Colorado Springs I did work for USA Triathalon, the Olympic Training Center (road, track and MTB) and where ever I worked I was sought out as a mechanic by sponsored and unsponsored professionals because they cannot afford mechanical failures. I've built more custom bikes and custom wheels than I can remember. I was once offered a job at BBI and had to turn it down because I had just broken my left arm in a mountain bike crash such that I needed two screws in my left elbow (funny bone) - I was in a cast for 16 weeks and the doctor took off the cast not because I was healed but because I needed to start moving the joint. I have so many scars on my body from cycling that I sometimes can't remember where I got them all. I once hit 73 mph on a road bike going south on 67 from Cripple Creek, Colorado to Divide in a hail storm. I rode 58 miles, some of it on the Contintal Divide in one day on a single speed on the Monarch and Rainbow trails west of Salida, Colorado. I dream about wrenching and/or riding at least weekly and every time I drink a beer I forget more about bicycles than most people will ever know about them.

    If you have hostility towards me and the way I think about bikes then you have hostility toward cycling. Despite the idea that bikes make us rebels, the truth is that few things are more conformist that riding a bike that doesn't work right while being too ignorant to know the difference. From three year old kids who were riding before they could walk to 98 year old former world class racers I have always sought to make the rider's experience better. I did it so I could share my love of this sport, not to exclude anyone from it. Shame on anyone who says otherwise.
    I get it.

    your initial reply came across as an authority figure, not one of the brethren.
    not hostility, as much as a member of the 'FUN POLICE'.

    I am NOT questioning your passion, expertise or credentials.
    neither of us can judge what is 'right' for each other.
    one of the many 'freedoms' that comes with this sport.

    be safe and enjoy your time.

    C.
    EricN
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  25. #25
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    73MPH in a hail storm???!!!! Your face must look like the surface of the moon.

  26. #26
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    Thankfully the hail was slushy and I had Oakleys on so I didn't get any uglier, but it made the road a little slippery. Some of those tour busses seemed to get nervous, but I had very good brakes (Campy baby) and I know a half decent mechanic. Makes you feel like a bird or something. I did occure to me that if I came off the bike there would be just a long pink stripe and some smoking Sidis left!
    BBI certified, 12+ years as mechanic

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Hasn't your set-up just communicated a message to you?
    Well yes and no. It is just as possible that with higher air pressure the root would have punctured the tire instead of forcing the bead out of the socket. I have seen tubed tires fail under similar situations, left with a gaping wound in the sidewall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    When your set-up talks back, you may want to listen; figure out how to not be in that position again.
    I will go along with this. I drop the pressure down for a relatively high speed, but bumpy ride. I always carry some extra CO2 to pump the tire back up. Just to be safe, I'll probably start keeping the pressure above 30 lbs from now on. While I may not fear riding at 25lbs, it would make my wife really mad if she found out, and I do fear her.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by djriddle
    Thankfully the hail was slushy and I had Oakleys on so I didn't get any uglier, but it made the road a little slippery. Some of those tour busses seemed to get nervous, but I had very good brakes (Campy baby) and I know a half decent mechanic. Makes you feel like a bird or something. I did occure to me that if I came off the bike there would be just a long pink stripe and some smoking Sidis left!
    I caught some hail during the Solvang Century a few years back and it wasn't slushy. I was wearing Rudy Projects and rain gear so it wasn't so bad except the bridge of my nose. The hail was the size of large peas and stung my nose like crazy.
    Just one more rep and I get the toaster!

  29. #29
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    Glad your finger is OK. I didn't mean to imply that you earned you injury, just that I knew some of the numbers that added up to it. If I could make a list of all the stuff I've had to learn the hard way on a bike it might save people alot of wear and tear. I know I'm a smart-a$$ but I mean well.

    Thanks for the blessings too, but I'm no longer in the Army. Just a student now. Gotta change that profile...
    BBI certified, 12+ years as mechanic

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomn
    I went back to tubes for that reason. Ghetto tubeless was letting me run as low as 20psi on rocks on a rigid bike ridden by a 195lb rider. I was very impressed, until I started noticing how many tiny burps I was getting on harder hits even at my normal pressures (mid to upper 20s) and a bit freaked when I heard and felt the bead unseat on one particular turn. It didn't even burp much air, but it was enough to toss me. Tubes seem to be a bit better job at locking the bead against the rim compared to ghetto. I would like to try UST or another tubeless system like Bontragers though.
    Hmmm. Thats interesting. The whole reason you went back to tube is the reason I left them. I'm 215 loaded and I like running a low pressure upper 20's to low 30's, depending on the trail, and found tubeless to be the way to go to keep from shearing the valves off the tubes. My problem was the tire slipping around the rim under hard braking. This over time would force the tube around with the tire and would eventually tear the stem away from the tube. I tried everything from different rim tapes to talc power to prevent this but after 10 torn stems in 2 months I switched to tubeless. I run ghetto up front and UST in the rear. No flats for 2 years Which is pretty impressive considering I ride in the SW Rocky Mountains (and I do mean "Rocky").

    I dont run less than 25 cuz although it smooths out the small bumps handing is severely degraded.
    "I think im gonna go to walmart and look at the mountain bikes and see if i can salvage the rear frame."- Nick_Knipp 3/21/12

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bobby9
    Hmmm. Thats interesting. The whole reason you went back to tube is the reason I left them. I'm 215 loaded and I like running a low pressure upper 20's to low 30's, depending on the trail, and found tubeless to be the way to go to keep from shearing the valves off the tubes. My problem was the tire slipping around the rim under hard braking. This over time would force the tube around with the tire and would eventually tear the stem away from the tube. I tried everything from different rim tapes to talc power to prevent this but after 10 torn stems in 2 months I switched to tubeless. I run ghetto up front and UST in the rear. No flats for 2 years Which is pretty impressive considering I ride in the SW Rocky Mountains (and I do mean "Rocky").

    I dont run less than 25 cuz although it smooths out the small bumps handing is severely degraded.
    weird, haven't had that happen to me yet. Was this on multiple wheelsets or could you possibly have a set of rims that were a little undersized or a set of tires that are a bit oversized? I think I remember hearing about some tires such as the Rampage having a tendency to spin on the rim

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