What is best: Eccentric? Horizontal? Sliding? Rockers?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    What is best: Eccentric? Horizontal? Sliding? Rockers?

    Hi,

    I'm having a 27.5 built for the Tour Divide with an IGH, and I've a question which I think the singlespeeders can probably help answer best:

    What is best: Eccentric? Horizontal? Sliding? Rockers?

    My bike builder can do either. His opinion is to have an EBB as with the Rohloff there will be a lot of forces on the rear dropouts (e.g. Paragon adjustable) and that the chance of a fatal failure there is higher than that of a fatal failure in the EBB.

    Any feedback would be great.

    Cheers,

    KiwiDave

  2. #2
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    I love my paragons, set and forget. Not sure why they would be more of a weakness vs. a traditional brazed on drop out.

  3. #3
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    You can see my take here:

    Bikes and Playgrounds: The Paths to Single Speed

    I really like the Paragon swingers on my Twin Six. Easy to adjust, no issues, look great.
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  4. #4
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    if i had my choice, i would choose sliding vertical drops (like on my Kona Unit), swinging drops second choice.

    EBB would be last on my list. not hating on them, just read too many negatives. there are better systems. even the White Industries Eno hub with vertical drops would be an option over EBB for me.
    Last edited by *OneSpeed*; 08-02-2015 at 07:43 AM.
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  5. #5
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    I do all of these all the time for folks and the bottom line is that you need to decide if you want to be able to adjust the chainstay length, or the BB height. Second you need to decide if you will have trouble with very small differences in saddle/BB distance (rare, but folks with bad knees can often feel just a few mm).

    Some people also decide based on the aesthetics of the different solutions.

    If built decently, all of them will work just fine, Rohloff or no. Personally I'd do the swingers or sliders, but I have bad knees from an old MX wreck and hate EBBs.

    If you do go EBB, use the Niner one. It's fantastic.

    -Walt

  6. #6
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    I am a big fan of the Paragon Slider dropouts. Like Walt said all the popular designs work. I have only have direct build experience with for Paragon Sliders and PF30 EBB. I don't really like the look of the swingers and prefer top tube style cable routing.

    The swingers mesh well with down tube cable routing and IMHO this is not as nice because if you wish to use a dropper post you will need guides on the top tube. When not using the dropper post the guides on top tube look busy. With sliders, you can have one set of guides on the bottom of the top tube that share the routing of the rear brake and a potential dropper post.

    On my bikes I use the hooded style Paragon sliders. Also the Paragon guides on the top tube hold the brake hose. Occasionally I mount my Thomson Dropper post and simply zip tie them to share the guides. Since I only run the dropper post out at Pisgah it is nice to be able to switch back to my normal post and not have unused guides messing with the visual flow.

  7. #7
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    In my experience, each system has it's own pluses and drawbacks.

    The Niner EBB is flawless when set up properly. You can set it up with a higher or lower BB height depending on personal choice. The drawback is that you have to adjust saddle height & position when you switch gears. If you just write down your setting for the different gearing choices, it is no big deal.

    Paragon sliders work great as well. But, your chain stay length is effected by the gear/chain set ups. This can be a benefit and a drawback too. Most people tend to like a shorter chain stay length, and some gearing choices do not allow for the shorter setting without adding a half link.

    Horizontal dropouts has some of the benefits and drawbacks of sliders. You also need to carry a larger wrench for trailside rear tire changes.
    Marty

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
    You can see my take here:

    Bikes and Playgrounds: The Paths to Single Speed

    I really like the Paragon swingers on my Twin Six. Easy to adjust, no issues, look great.
    That was a great blog post!
    Thanks to www.weavercycleworks.com for my awesome bike frames!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcoplea View Post
    Horizontal dropouts has some of the benefits and drawbacks of sliders. You also need to carry a larger wrench for trailside rear tire changes.
    Horizontal dropouts are a little more prone to slipping and it helps to use a chain tug but that only helps the drive side (the disc brake side tends to get pulled towards the rear by braking forces). Horizontal dropouts require you to loosen up the disc brake caliper to change the wheel position. You don't need a larger wrench though - most non QR hubs these days have gone to bolts instead of nuts and use a standard (usually 6mm) allen wrench.

    My preference is sliders. I had serious problems with the sliders on my Voodoo Dambala but none at all with the ones on my Kona Honzo. I had an old set screw EBB on my SIR9 and it worked fine but needed to be pulled out, cleaned, and lightly lubricated twice a year or it would creak. I tried the single bolt version of Niner's newer EBB and it sucked. If Walt says the current 2 bolt version works, I would trust his opinion although I don't like the design because tightening and loosening it will affect the bottom bracket bearing preload.

  10. #10
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    My preference is split shell EBB
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  11. #11
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    Sliders are my favorite, EBB is my least favorite. Horizontals are in the middle (and what I'm currently running).

  12. #12
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    EBB is horrible! DON'T DO IT!

  13. #13
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    What is best: Eccentric? Horizontal? Sliding? Rockers?

    My SS has horizontals used with a chain tug on the drive side. They are a set it and forget it, nothing to break, simple as can be set up. Maybe I'm just lazy but I've changed gearing on it here and there through the years and have never had to change the brake caliper location or loosen it. Can't comment on sliders or ebb other than to say IMO they look more complicated and breakable than I would want. However this particular bike is a dedicated SS and doesn't need the versatility of putting gears on it so the horizontals are all that's needed. I did have an IGH on it for a second, didn't like the hub itself but it worked great in the horizontals with chain tug. Takes a very very small amount of time longer to change a flat than vertical dropouts but how often does that really need to be done.


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  14. #14
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    One more thing, the Surly chain tug has an integrated bottle opener.


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  15. #15
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    I'Ve been using a Singular Hummingbird with Phil Wood EBB (set screw type) for about five years now and it's been faultless, so take all this "EBB's are rubbish" stuff with a pinch of salt, guys. I don't know of anyone who's had a problem with Singular EBB's - simple and just do the job IME.

  16. #16
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    FWIW, EBBs usually run into problems (slipping, creaking, etc) when the manufacturer doesn't bother to ream the shell back to round after joining the tubes. With some attention to detail they work very well, though the Niner is by far the best/least finicky (and I've used them all at one point or another).

    -Walt

  17. #17
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    I've not used any EBB's other than Carver (which was a pain in the ass to adjust) and the Phil Wood set screw type on the Hummingbird - or actually, on three different Hummingbirds, 'cos my wife and I have three between us.
    So I'm hardly very knowledgable on the subject, I only know what works for me.

  18. #18
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    I had the first Niner EBB on my SIR9 which was initially a noisy pain in the ass until I used CarboGrip.

    The Bushnell EBB on my Jones Plus has been flawless.

    I had a VooDoo Dambala with sliders that would move the first time I was out of the saddle on a climb. Hated them. I learned why the dude sold me the frame so cheap!

    My Nimble 9 had Horizontals that I loved. They were set and forget.

    Same with the Krampus, once the Beer Opener was installed on the drive side.

  19. #19
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    I vote for Paragon sliders -- EBB's mess with leg extension / saddle height. That's a royal pain for those riding fixed gear...

  20. #20
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    How do the Rockers work? Loosen all 4 bolts, move the wheel by hand and tighten? I know they look cleaner, but I can't figure out how they work as well as a typical slider with an adjusting bolt...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob1035 View Post
    How do the Rockers work? Loosen all 4 bolts, move the wheel by hand and tighten? I know they look cleaner, but I can't figure out how they work as well as a typical slider with an adjusting bolt...
    They have adjusting screws to push them back.

  22. #22
    SS Pusher Man
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    Personally, I have really like the swingers that I had on my El Mariachi and similar swingers that I have on my Highball.

    Easy to adjust. Quiet. Solid. Does not require moving the brake caliper when dropping the wheel.

    Only issue I have is that SC does make the swinger in 142x12.
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  23. #23
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    Vertical dropouts and a Blackspire Stinger on ISCG tabs for tension adjustment.
    Pros:
    - your dropouts Will - Not - Move
    - no EBB related creaks
    - easy to adjust
    - wheel installation is way easier than with horizontal

    Cons:
    - purists will frown

    "it IS possible that you are faster or slower than anybody else who is having at least as much if not more or less fun"

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy R View Post
    They have adjusting screws to push them back.
    They do? Where?

    photo credit to Waltworks Bicycles: Initial thoughts: Paragon Rockers

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaBass_ View Post
    I had the first Niner EBB on my SIR9 which was initially a noisy pain in the ass until I used CarboGrip.

    The Bushnell EBB on my Jones Plus has been flawless.

    I had a VooDoo Dambala with sliders that would move the first time I was out of the saddle on a climb. Hated them. I learned why the dude sold me the frame so cheap!

    My Nimble 9 had Horizontals that I loved. They were set and forget.

    Same with the Krampus, once the Beer Opener was installed on the drive side.
    I had the same issue on my Voodoo. Removed the paint on the frame where the sliders contacted and it worked better. Didn't cure the issue but it helped. Never liked the frame and also sold it.

  26. #26
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    Another bonus of the paragon slider is the interchangeable drive side drop out, want to run a Derailleur? covered.
    SS? covered.
    Thru axle? Bam.

  27. #27
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    FWIW, I've had a couple of different setups

    -Wedge type EBB (Cannondale 1FG, Fisher Rig): pretty much awful. All the typical EBB issues, noise, moved when they shouldn't, stuck solid when they should move to adjust

    -Sliders A: Voodoo Wanga: Flawless, no issues whatsoever

    -Sliders B: Canfield N9 (1st gen): again, flawless

    -Horizontal drops: (Karate Monkey + Bianchi San Jose) Worked OK with Surly tensioners and QR hubs, however they are really good with bolt-on rear hubs. Getting them set up and the brakes adjusted perfectly is a bit fiddly, but once its done, its fine.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem1 View Post
    Another bonus of the paragon slider is the interchangeable drive side drop out, want to run a Derailleur? covered.
    SS? covered.
    Thru axle? Bam.
    There's some EBB frames that have interchangeable dropouts as well (Niner, Jones)

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    I had the same issue on my Voodoo. Removed the paint on the frame where the sliders contacted and it worked better. Didn't cure the issue but it helped. Never liked the frame and also sold it.
    Man, I removed paint, used Loctite, gorilla torqued the bolts. Nothing worked!

  30. #30
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    My experiences:
    Bushnell and Carver cam/wedge style EBBs -- really sucked big time. They were noisy, slipped unless overtightened, and bound the bearings of the bottom bracket when they were tightened enough to prevent slippage.

    Split Shell EBB with Phil Wood Insert -- absolutely silent (use blue loctite on pinch bolt threads), doesn't move, very easy to adjust. This is what I have on my Black Sheep that has been running a Rohloff for the past 10 years. I'd happily do it again. The problem with setup (seat position having to be adjusted when you switch cogs) is really irrelevant if you're using the EBB to tension for an IGH. If your builder is most comfortable with an EBB, I'd recommend the split shell style with a Phil Wood Insert. If you've find advantage in a moving dropout tensioner and your builder is okay with that, that would work too (and since Walt said it can if built right, then it can).

    White Industries ENO Eccentric Hub: Used this system for the past 8 years on my single speed -- very happy with it. I particularly like that there are NO moving parts on the frame (no sliders or EBBs to set). Not relevant to the OP as he's after something that would work with an IGH.
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  31. #31
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    Everyone - thanks for all the feedback, it was very helpful. I've decided to go with the Niner EBB - I'll post here after the Tour Divide with how happy I am with that solution (fingers crossed I will be happy).

    Should I get them to do something special when inserting it? Loctite?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwidave View Post
    Everyone - thanks for all the feedback, it was very helpful. I've decided to go with the Niner EBB - I'll post here after the Tour Divide with how happy I am with that solution (fingers crossed I will be happy).

    Should I get them to do something special when inserting it? Loctite?
    No loctite on Niner EBB.

    Use grease on the posts, where they insert into the other half of the EBB. Grease the bolt heads where they contact the EBB so you can get the right torque.

    Finally, and most importantly, use Oatey's Pipe Joint Compound on all faces of the EBB that touch the frame. That includes the EBB body and the flange.

    I ran mine bare for several months and it was creak free but after a few really wet rides, it started creaking slightly. I removed it, cleaned it, used Oateys, and it's been silent despite several very wet rides.

  33. #33
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    I use Oatey's but the newest Niner instructions say use nothing at all. I'll probably just keep using Oatey's since it's worked for me.

    Just remember to torque it down to spec. Meaning, get a torque wrench if you don't already have one.

  34. #34
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    Yeah I have the new niner EBB and a torque wrench no problems. I like it better than the horizontal dropouts that are on my fixed road bike

  35. #35
    Oaktown Honkey on Strava
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    I've had 4 NINER EBB set ups. Newest ones are fine, set up with Oaty's, pipe compound. I would not get an EBB, if custom, no way! I used to pedal over logs, 1-2 foot tall, but this is the downfall of the EBB. I would choose system with regular screw in Bottom Bracket. Now I have to stop, lift bike over downed trees/logs, just so I don't mess up chain tension. Other than that one specific issue, I am fine with EBB because of clean look and hassle free brake caliper set up.

  36. #36
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    Never had an EBB, but the Paragon Sliders are excellent. Track ends are a bit annoying unless you have a solid axle with nuts(and dont mind re-setting the brake caliper every time you remove the rear wheel).

  37. #37
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    My Vote is for 12x142 paragon sliders with the ti bolt kit.

    That set up has been flawless for me.

    I have never met an EBB that didn't creak or have issues.
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  38. #38
    Daniel the Dog
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    My Phil Wood EBB on my Singular has been completely problem free!

  39. #39
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    I prefer my ENO rear hub by White Ind. Been racing this setup for 4 full seasons and never once has it given me an issue!!!


  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by perttime View Post
    Vertical dropouts and a Blackspire Stinger on ISCG tabs for tension adjustment.
    Pros:
    - your dropouts Will - Not - Move
    - no EBB related creaks
    - easy to adjust
    - wheel installation is way easier than with horizontal

    Cons:
    - purists will frown
    This. Lighter than sliders/rockers/ebb as well?

    Though, if you want to be able to adjust chainstay length, rockers are my preferred.

  41. #41
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    I have had horizontal on my Titus when it was a SS and it would get loose and slide forward every other ride. I tightened the shit out of my Ti bolt on Hadley SS hub and used Ti prep on the bolts. Now with my Sir9 and the EBB it gets loose about every 4 rides but I still prefer the set up. My chain line stays straight and so does my rotor in between the caliper plus I prefer the the way the brake mounts between stays, looks.
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  42. #42
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    I have cannondale trail 29 with ebb and it's is a pain to switch gears and tighten chain. IN MY OPINION!!!

  43. #43
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    If you can source a Specialized EBB and have a frame built around it I would totally go for it. Ridiculously easy to adjust chain tension. Never slips or makes noise at all. I hate sliders with a passion.

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