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  1. #1
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    Very un-singlespeed

    Now that 10-speed cassettes are fairly commonplace in road bikes, surely it's only a matter of time before manufacturers begin offering 30-speed mountain bikes. And if that wasn't enough, I just read something about Shimano holding a patent on a 14-speed cassette. Not some internal hub like a Rohloff - a cassette. So that's 42 speeds, when matched with a standard triple chainring set upfront.

    Oh my.

    I have geared bikes - 2 of them - that I still love (horses of courses sorta thing), but I'm committed to singlespeed bikes now. I'm constantly reminded why making the switch to a single gear setup was absolutely the right way to go. The other day I was hanging out in the bike shop and some dude comes in, thrilled that he'd been out on the trails in the subzero temperature, but well pissed off that both his derailleurs froze up on him, leaving him unable to switch gears on his ride. Another day, I was up on a hill that was lightly covered with snow and ice. Guy on top of the hill using his multi-tool to chisel out bits of snow and ice from his derailleurs and between his chainrings... the whole time freaking out that he won't be able to ride his bike out of there. "Dude, mellow out, just don't shift and keep pedalling." He looked at me like I had two heads.

    And yet I find it a bit odd that I am probably the only one of my riding friends who has experienced this 'epiphany' of sorts. Doesn't make me a better person or anything, maybe just a bit different. They all think I'm some retarded glutton for punishment. And yet I see nothing punishing about riding with without multiple gears. I just don't know how to use every last one of those supposed 42 speeds!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    Now that 10-speed cassettes are fairly commonplace in road bikes, surely it's only a matter of time before manufacturers begin offering 30-speed mountain bikes. And if that wasn't enough, I just read something about Shimano holding a patent on a 14-speed cassette. Not some internal hub like a Rohloff - a cassette. So that's 42 speeds, when matched with a standard triple chainring set upfront.
    14?!? Holy Carp! Imagine the (negative) wheel dish on that - or is Shimano planning on forcing eveyone to adopt a new rear wheel spacing "standard"?
    Sometimes more is just more.... simplify... one is enough.
    this space left intentionally blank

  3. #3
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    I'd hate to adjust the limit screws on that 14 speed derailleur! Mmm. mudcaked cassettes.

  4. #4
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    gears

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    Now that 10-speed cassettes are fairly commonplace in road bikes, surely it's only a matter of time before manufacturers begin offering 30-speed mountain bikes. And if that wasn't enough, I just read something about Shimano holding a patent on a 14-speed cassette. Not some internal hub like a Rohloff - a cassette. So that's 42 speeds, when matched with a standard triple chainring set upfront.

    Oh my.

    I have geared bikes - 2 of them - that I still love (horses of courses sorta thing), but I'm committed to singlespeed bikes now. I'm constantly reminded why making the switch to a single gear setup was absolutely the right way to go. The other day I was hanging out in the bike shop and some dude comes in, thrilled that he'd been out on the trails in the subzero temperature, but well pissed off that both his derailleurs froze up on him, leaving him unable to switch gears on his ride. Another day, I was up on a hill that was lightly covered with snow and ice. Guy on top of the hill using his multi-tool to chisel out bits of snow and ice from his derailleurs and between his chainrings... the whole time freaking out that he won't be able to ride his bike out of there. "Dude, mellow out, just don't shift and keep pedalling." He looked at me like I had two heads.

    And yet I find it a bit odd that I am probably the only one of my riding friends who has experienced this 'epiphany' of sorts. Doesn't make me a better person or anything, maybe just a bit different. They all think I'm some retarded glutton for punishment. And yet I see nothing punishing about riding with without multiple gears. I just don't know how to use every last one of those supposed 42 speeds!
    IMO - multigeared bikes = lame

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    IMO - multigeared bikes = lame
    So, are SS's like Cialis for gearies?

    If so, and you cannot get off your SS after 4 hours of hard riding, should one seek emergency medical attention immediately?



    (ff)

  6. #6
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    The 14spd cassette would have like a 38t or bigger granny, climbing up on the spokes, actually sidding inward of the most inward end of the cassette body.
    Would probably required a funky wheelbuild too, to angle the driveside spokes in enough to have the frisbee-sized cassette slide over them.

    Chain that's way narrower, because it uses less parts per link. the left links connects to the right link, connects to the left link, etc, not 2 links next to each other. Not easy to get to work I'm sure, but Shimano must have wanted the patent before someone else would come to the idea. I think it was meant for a 2x14 setup rather than 3x14. On thing it could improve : their ever-moving chainline on cranks.

    Derailers are ancient technology, I wish frame gearbox and Rohloff kind of stuf improved at a better rate.

    Must be that the world (apparently) doesn't revolve around bikes. If Nasa and Eta would be competing to make the best bicycle rather than the trickest rocket, we'd now not be stuck with 26" wheels, straight bars and failing derailers :-)
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  7. #7
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    I've seen the 14 speed patent.

    Same spacing as now, different chain. One front chainring, sweet, not more front shifting.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  8. #8
    I'm feeling dirty, you?
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    Still hanging on a wimpy derailleur hanger.

  9. #9
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    I've converted 3 local riders to SS-ing due to derailleur maintenance issues in the winter. Ofcourse I've made sure they do not convert using a tensioner.

    On the Shimano 14-speed patent, it is from 1999, and uses a narrower chain with a single solid U-shaped narrow link, which allows them to put standard 9-speed cogs much closer together. A special main derailleur pulley is used to handle tha chain. The cassette fits on a standard 8-9-speed freehub.

    <img src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/516/234259Shimano_14-s_chain.gif">
    <img src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/516/234259Shimano_14-s_cassette.gif">

    The patent shows 2 front chainrings.

    Cheers,

    Tom
    Last edited by itsdoable; 01-25-2005 at 11:00 AM.

  10. #10
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    That is a pretty wacky design! I wonder if they really plan on using it, or if they just want to keep someone else from using it!

    I have to agree with Cloxxki about the frame gearbox and internal geared hub. Maybe they are working on it, but it seems to me that it makes a lot more sense to have a single chainring, a single cog, and an internal gearbox, whether in the hub or the frame. If the Rohloff wasn't so damn expensive, I would have one on my dually! If Shimano really put their mind to intenal gearboxes, they would be lighter, cheaper and more reliable than the Rohloff hub.

  11. #11
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    Gears are simply too inefficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    That is a pretty wacky design! I wonder if they really plan on using it, or if they just want to keep someone else from using it!

    I have to agree with Cloxxki about the frame gearbox and internal geared hub. Maybe they are working on it, but it seems to me that it makes a lot more sense to have a single chainring, a single cog, and an internal gearbox, whether in the hub or the frame. If the Rohloff wasn't so damn expensive, I would have one on my dually! If Shimano really put their mind to intenal gearboxes, they would be lighter, cheaper and more reliable than the Rohloff hub.
    Unless a major breakthrough in materials engineering occurs gearboxes on bikes will never make it to the highest performance level. Their inherent inefficiences will see to that. A perfect chain system can be up to 98% efficient. With today's technology I think gearboxes( something usable in a bike) are around 70 % efficent. That's a lot of human energy converted into heat instead of forward motion.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    ... A perfect chain system can be up to 98% efficient. With today's technology I think gearboxes( something usable in a bike) are around 70 % efficent ...
    I think your numbers are a bit off, I'd definitely notice a 30% loss on my Rohloff or Nexus or SRAM. There are published numbers, and the best of both worlds differ by ~1% (99% for derailleurs & 98% for a planetary gear system). But 1% over a 30 day tour is alot. More important, its the 1.5lb weight penalty of the gear box that keeps it off the elite performance stage (except in DH & freeride)

    Cheers,

    Tom

  13. #13
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    no

    Quote Originally Posted by firefox
    So, are SS's like Cialis for gearies?

    If so, and you cannot get off your SS after 4 hours of hard riding, should one seek emergency medical attention immediately?



    (ff)
    no, I just rub out cancer and watch COPS with a side of KFC...and a cold Miller High Life.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Unless a major breakthrough in materials engineering occurs gearboxes on bikes will never make it to the highest performance level. Their inherent inefficiences will see to that. A perfect chain system can be up to 98% efficient. With today's technology I think gearboxes( something usable in a bike) are around 70 % efficent. That's a lot of human energy converted into heat instead of forward motion.
    Care to provide a reference for those numbers? Otherwise, it seems a bit contrived.

    (ff)

  15. #15
    Medium?
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    Efficiency described by Rohloff

    http://www.rohloff.de/index.php?lang...IRKUNGSGRAD&d=

    <a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">Google</a> is your friend.

  16. #16
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    Swapping your tubes from butyl to latex is 1% right there!

    Between a cheap and high-end tire with the same tread, there's more than a 1% difference.

    Heavy breakfast -> whose counting percentages? Quarts!

    Sunshine over rain : I'm way faster, and it's not a resistance thing!
    New girlfriend : at least 2%
    New girlfriend in pits at a race : another 3%

    Pro's love shaping there bikes for perfect low air drag.
    Ever notice how at high speeds, the rear derailer takes the most wind hanging right down?

    If Shitmano comes up with a lighter, properly shifting alternative to Rohloff, I'll have to try it. If I still have a gear-oriented bike to put it on, that is.
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  17. #17
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    ROTFLMAO!

    ... now my converted 7-speed freewheeled SS bike has a clearance of 3.5mm between cogs, but! for a 14-speed cassette!
    It's not just a simple half the clearance, it's even less when you factor in the space the extra cogs take. Yes they could get around it with thinner cogs but at the cost of durability?

    An internal gear system is pretty much the best multi-speed option for MTBikers, Rohloff yes it is expensive, but against a full 2005 XTR drivetrain ( even if with Rohloff you have to supply your own brake levers) the Rohloff has incredible value, XTR chainrings are buttery smooth and equally soft, a Rohloff will supply your with a lower low and higher high gear ratios then a derailleur drivetrain.
    One fault I'd pick at the Rohloff is the weight distrabution at the rear, my friend has his set up on a Specialized Epic with disc brakes, with the Rohloff, disc brakes and the Epic suspension setup all rear of the rider, in-saddle climbing could result in more climb wheelies.

    The biggest problem as stated before by moi, is debris, for F sake this is MTBiking, dirt is main part of the fun. You'll cake the 14-speed cassette like 5 times as faster against a 9-speed with anything, doesn't even have to be clay based or high sand content mud.

    Waste of time!, as all of us have worked out, you don't have to have a 9-speed craziness cos we singlespeed or some fixie. And mud affecting the one speed drivetrain is pretty much a non-issue.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    If the Rohloff wasn't so damn expensive, I would have one on my dually! If Shimano really put their mind to intenal gearboxes, they would be lighter, cheaper and more reliable than the Rohloff hub.
    totally. i want a nice 3 speed internal hub. the biggest weakness of SS is road flats when getting to the trails. and the occasional super long granny grunt that is more fun to ride than walk.
    Only boring people get bored.

  19. #19
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    My idea exactly. I now have a ghetto 3spd derailer setup on the commuter, and apart from use of baaaad ooool d cabels and crappy derailer setup, the bike gives me about the same spirituality as a SS. I shift occasionally, and only at times where the 2nd gear is just no fun anymore, be it spin or push. Also great for training, I can make a power workout out of my commute just by shifting to the 3, and a cooling down-recovery-climb-bad Dutch headwind coast by going to the 1. I'd love such gearing with something less creaky and fail-prone.
    3spd is cool, 7 enough, 14...naaaaah, only for rides with race plates!
    Klok - XC - Skate - Ski

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonowee
    ROTFLMAO!
    ... now my converted 7-speed freewheeled SS bike has a clearance of 3.5mm between cogs, but! for a 14-speed cassette!
    It's not just a simple half the clearance, it's even less when you factor in the space the extra cogs take. Yes they could get around it with thinner cogs but at the cost of durability?
    ....
    Waste of time!, as all of us have worked out, you don't have to have a 9-speed craziness cos we singlespeed or some fixie. And mud affecting the one speed drivetrain is pretty much a non-issue.
    The patent shows the maximum number of standard 9-speed cogs that can fit on a standard 9-speed freehub using this chain. The spacing between cogs is reduced because you only need to make room for the thickness on one link plate, not the 2 required for normal chains. Spoke clearance is moot, it just makes room for the chain to get stuck in there.

    Patents show the inovation and it's maximun limits, they don't necessarily get made that way, or at all. But I can see this working on a road bike.

    Personally, I'm a SS/internal gear user, as dictated by the weather & riding conditions I have.

    Cheers,

    Tom

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddy
    http://www.rohloff.de/index.php?lang...IRKUNGSGRAD&d=

    <a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">Google</a> is your friend.
    It was more of a request to provide references for the numbers that Rivet was quoting. You're link is interesting, but it still doesn't address the 70% efficiency quote... unless I missed it (I am only human).

    Thanks for the link. Google is nice. But I already knew that.

    (ff)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefox
    It was more of a request to provide references for the numbers that Rivet was quoting. You're link is interesting, but it still doesn't address the 70% efficiency quote... unless I missed it (I am only human).

    Thanks for the link. Google is nice. But I already knew that.

    (ff)
    Here is an excerpt from the link :

    "Through special constructive developments like an increased number of teeth per gear and the choice of using roller bearings for the planetary gears, running the gearbox within an oil bath and extremely rigid construction of the overall gearbox, the working efficiency of the Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14 is brought up to 96% (for gears #1 to #7) and 98% (for gears #8 to #14)."

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    Here is an excerpt from the link :

    "Through special constructive developments like an increased number of teeth per gear and the choice of using roller bearings for the planetary gears, running the gearbox within an oil bath and extremely rigid construction of the overall gearbox, the working efficiency of the Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14 is brought up to 96% (for gears #1 to #7) and 98% (for gears #8 to #14)."
    Yep... Got that. However, it only answers half the question... right? What about those numbers pertaining to the frame type(s)?

    (ff)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonowee
    I'd hate to adjust the limit screws on that 14 speed derailleur! Mmm. mudcaked cassettes.
    Exactly!

    That wouldn't last too long in New England. HA.
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  25. #25
    6x7=Dont Panic!
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    I wonder how much those chains would cost... And there is no way its light! Probably 350g+ for the xtr level. I'm on a 1x9 now, and find that that range is way more than enough for me. Which I guess is why I am building a ss. Maybe it would have a beaan advantage on road bikes, but there is no need for that many gears on a mtb ever!
    Herro prease

  26. #26
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    I've thought about taking a set of Campy 10-speed bar ends and using a set of Paul's thumbies, a Campy long cage Record carbon rear deraileur and creating a 30-speed Campy setup. Then I get on my Spot and go for a ride...

  27. #27
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    Rode a Jones Ti with a 4spd cassette the other day... that was money! I think the spread was 12:19:26:32. Just enough to allow you to get out of trouble (or into) but without the constant shifting and fiddling around that comes with 27+ gears.

    Moto

  28. #28
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    They had me at 8

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinWheelz
    Now that 10-speed cassettes are fairly commonplace in road bikes, surely it's only a matter of time before manufacturers begin offering 30-speed mountain bikes. And if that wasn't enough, I just read something about Shimano holding a patent on a 14-speed cassette. Not some internal hub like a Rohloff - a cassette. So that's 42 speeds, when matched with a standard triple chainring set upfront.

    Oh my.

    I have geared bikes - 2 of them - that I still love (horses of courses sorta thing), but I'm committed to singlespeed bikes now. I'm constantly reminded why making the switch to a single gear setup was absolutely the right way to go. The other day I was hanging out in the bike shop and some dude comes in, thrilled that he'd been out on the trails in the subzero temperature, but well pissed off that both his derailleurs froze up on him, leaving him unable to switch gears on his ride. Another day, I was up on a hill that was lightly covered with snow and ice. Guy on top of the hill using his multi-tool to chisel out bits of snow and ice from his derailleurs and between his chainrings... the whole time freaking out that he won't be able to ride his bike out of there. "Dude, mellow out, just don't shift and keep pedalling." He looked at me like I had two heads.

    And yet I find it a bit odd that I am probably the only one of my riding friends who has experienced this 'epiphany' of sorts. Doesn't make me a better person or anything, maybe just a bit different. They all think I'm some retarded glutton for punishment. And yet I see nothing punishing about riding with without multiple gears. I just don't know how to use every last one of those supposed 42 speeds!
    Still run XTR 8 speed on my gearie, hopefully I can still get cassettes when my supply runs out.

  29. #29
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    Wait on these bad boys

    Quote Originally Posted by endure26
    I've thought about taking a set of Campy 10-speed bar ends and using a set of Paul's thumbies, a Campy long cage Record carbon rear deraileur and creating a 30-speed Campy setup. Then I get on my Spot and go for a ride...

    http://www.moonheadmachine.com/index...lay&page_id=21

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Speeder
    You need to find some Campy "bullet shifters" and then you'd be pimp!
    RennenDesignGroup.com
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  31. #31
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    Yeah, I had more than enough at 8 speeds too. All my geared bikes are 8 speed, including my road/touring/cyclocross bike. I am always looking for deals on nice 8 speed cassettes!

  32. #32
    Hansel, so hot right now.
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    Alright, alright, alright.

    14 speeds is insane. But let us keep one thing in mind...they haven't exactly perfected 10 speed on road bikes, much less mount bikes. This stuff is a ways off, in my humble, but educated opinion.
    Seriously, I don't think that running a 14 speed cassette, as we currently envision it, is really feasible. The 10-speed stuff, Campy and Shimano, is VERY touchy. We have had some issues with 10-speed shifting on certain bikes (who WILL remain nameless) because this or that causes a bit too much friction or not enough friction and it f@cks with the shifting. SO, by that logic, if you get a tiny, and I do mean TINY amount of friction that will cause a DA or Ultegra 10-speed to not shift spot on, I can't even begin to imagine how much a small piece of debris stuck in any part of the shifting mechanism on a 10-speed mountain bike would be. Hell, on my eight speed, or even on my six and seven speed stuff I remember that some dirt that would work its way into a housing or a corroded cable would raise Cain. A 10-speed set up would only magnify that problem. Granted there are better shifting systems out on the market today, but, still, it would be an issue.
    And, let us not forget this too, that the chains are most certainly smaller for a 10-speed system. There are again much more fickle and if not install properly, easier to break, even on the road spectrum. That would only be magnified when put on a mountain bike application.

    Wow, did I just ramble f@cking on and on or what.
    Sh!t.

    What forum is this? Oh yeah....Singlespeeding.
    Sheesh.
    Let's take this talk over to the tech weenies side.

    LESS GEARS MORE BEERS!
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    Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way.
    So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me.
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