surly 1x1 rear horiz. track issues- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    surly 1x1 rear horiz. track issues

    I run my surly 1x1 with disc brakes...most of you have probably seen a pic of it somewhere in this forum. the pink one...anyways, i rode it for awhile with just bolt-on skewers and would occasionally have the wheel slip but not often. then it slipped on the trail again and i stripped the bolt-on skewer.

    i go out and buy a surly tuggnut and some new salsa ss skewers to replace the ruined bolt-ons. chain tension is amazing and everything seems to be okay. i just went to pisgah for a week and everything was okay but on some really fast descents where the wheels took some major shots the wheel would get dislocated. i have the skewer on REALLY tight.

    just because of this i'm considering selling the frame because i simply cant have that happening during my endurance races. any suggestions?

  2. #2
    paintbucket
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    How dislocated? Given the tugnut it really doesn't sound like axle movement to me, but if it is it might just be that putting lots of tension on the chain is setting the tugnut tensioning bolts into the dropout just a bit, and letting the axle pull forward. I'd also look at chain line just out of habit, and Plan B would be a solid axle and track nuts (with a chain tug).
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooglin
    How dislocated? Given the tugnut it really doesn't sound like axle movement to me, but if it is it might just be that putting lots of tension on the chain is setting the tugnut tensioning bolts into the dropout just a bit, and letting the axle pull forward. I'd also look at chain line just out of habit, and Plan B would be a solid axle and track nuts (with a chain tug).
    It might be i have too much tension on the chain...it doesnt move much when you push on it. very tight. i hadnt tried adjusting that. and to answer your quesiton re: dislocation. enough to slam the tire into the chainstay, grind through the paint and bring me to a quick stop to readjust it i have to simply release the skewer, move the tire back to the middle and i'm good to go. messing with the tuggnut has not been required yet.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    It might be i have too much tension on the chain...it doesnt move much when you push on it. very tight. i hadnt tried adjusting that. and to answer your quesiton re: dislocation. enough to slam the tire into the chainstay, grind through the paint and bring me to a quick stop to readjust it i have to simply release the skewer, move the tire back to the middle and i'm good to go. messing with the tuggnut has not been required yet.
    1--That's too much tension.

    2--So its slipping in the off-side dropout. Put a tugnut on that side as well (can you do that with disks?). Sounds like the disk grabbing the rotor/hub has the leverage to overcome the skewer and pull the axle forward.
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooglin
    1--That's too much tension.

    2--So its slipping in the off-side dropout. Put a tugnut on that side as well (can you do that with disks?). Sounds like the disk grabbing the rotor/hub has the leverage to overcome the skewer and pull the axle forward.
    yes, it's always slipping to the left. it must be the chain is too tight and now that i think about it it's probably occuring during very heavy braking and not from hard shots from the rocks. makes sense. i can't use two tugnuts i dont think because the skewer probably won't reach that far. the tuggnut is pretty thick plus it has a washer.

  6. #6
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    simple

    it's gotta be twin chain tugs w/ a solid axle and tracknuts.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by a nice cake
    it's gotta be twin chain tugs w/ a solid axle and tracknuts.
    That simply isn't an option. Wish i had known more about the type of dropouts before the frame purchase!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    That simply isn't an option. Wish i had known more about the type of dropouts before the frame purchase!

    why isn't it an option? what hub are you running?

    (no offense, but i just can't imagine even considering running horizontal drops w/o a bolt-on rear!)
    Last edited by a nice cake; 05-08-2004 at 09:19 PM.

  9. #9
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    Does your axle...

    extend to flush with the outside edge of the tuggnut? I had problems with the axle being just alittle to short to come through the tuggnut forcing all the pressure onto the QR skewer. Didn't catch this for some reason, and it would work perfectly until I hit something hard, or had a major pedal effort, then the axle would slip.

    I'm sure if I change the axle out for a slightly longer one this problem would go away. I like bolt on hubs much better, they never slip.

    MC


    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I run my surly 1x1 with disc brakes...most of you have probably seen a pic of it somewhere in this forum. the pink one...anyways, i rode it for awhile with just bolt-on skewers and would occasionally have the wheel slip but not often. then it slipped on the trail again and i stripped the bolt-on skewer.

    i go out and buy a surly tuggnut and some new salsa ss skewers to replace the ruined bolt-ons. chain tension is amazing and everything seems to be okay. i just went to pisgah for a week and everything was okay but on some really fast descents where the wheels took some major shots the wheel would get dislocated. i have the skewer on REALLY tight.

    just because of this i'm considering selling the frame because i simply cant have that happening during my endurance races. any suggestions?

  10. #10
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    Is the axle moving BACKWARDS on the disc side?

    That's something we've found on our Gimp Dirt Jump frames, and can be made WORSE with a chaintug as that spreads the clamping force load from the skewer/nut.

  11. #11
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    A little tech - as the rear brake grabs the brake disc, it creates a moment that tries to rotate the rear wheel about the brake pads, resulting in the axle moving backwards in the dropout.

    It's like the force that's generated by a front disc brake that can make the axle move when you haven't clamped the QR up properly (and can in the worst situations push the axle completely out of the front fork, causing big face/ground interface problems)

  12. #12
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    For more discussion, see this thread

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=2912

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    A little tech - as the rear brake grabs the brake disc, it creates a moment that tries to rotate the rear wheel about the brake pads, resulting in the axle moving backwards in the dropout.
    Good info brant. That's where I was trying to go last night, but I was having a hard time picturing the force directional arrows.
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

  14. #14
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    For some reason you seem to want to blame the frame for this problem. Why is it the frame's fault the wheel is slipping?

    Answer: It's not. You are trying to use a bolt-on skewer for a purpose other than what it's made for. You need a bolt on axle and all of your problems will be solved.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by riderx
    For some reason you seem to want to blame the frame for this problem. Why is it the frame's fault the wheel is slipping?

    Answer: It's not. You are trying to use a bolt-on skewer for a purpose other than what it's made for. You need a bolt on axle and all of your problems will be solved.
    Wouldn't a bolt-on axle be a hassle to change during a race? I dont really know how it works nor have i ever seen one. If it's as quick and simple as a quick release to change the wheel i'll consider it otherwise i'll have to continue looking for a new frame.

  16. #16
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    A bolt on axle might well solve the problems, but it's not helped that the evil forces of disk brake reaction force are conspiring against him :-)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    A bolt on axle might well solve the problems, but it's not helped that the evil forces of disk brake reaction force are conspiring against him :-)
    The wheel ALWAYS moved to the left. The more i think about it it seems obvious the disc brake is what is causing the movement. it only happened going down hill at very fast rates where massive braking was occuring although at first i didnt attribute it to braking thinking it was just hitting rocks although i guess the hard shots from rocks could be doing this but it never happened up north where i normally ride where the rocks are aplenty but the hills arent nearly as long or steep. It's unforunate i didnt know this about the frame before i got it! i like my pink bike

  18. #18
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    Crazy thought: Might it be possible to use a chaintug IN REVERSE! To anchor against a bit of the dropout and keep the wheel from being pushed backwards? I haven't got a detail shot of the dropout, so don't know. But this could be a good fix. You'd probably have to cut off a locating lug, but I'm sure an enterprising garage bodger could make something.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Wouldn't a bolt-on axle be a hassle to change during a race?
    No more than a bolt-one skewer. Besides, how often are you doing wheel changes in a race? Hopefully not often or you've got other issues to worry about.

    Bolt on w/ chaintugs:

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  20. #20
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    Alright maybe I'm crazy...but why not just use a V-brake on the rear? The disc 1x1's have the bosses for it. If you're racing it makes wheel changes easier and it's lighter to boot. The rear brake contributes so little to the overall braking performance of a bike that I would doubt you would even notice any loss switching to a V. This would save you a lot of $$$ on buying a new frame with a very simple fix. So anyhow...there's my suggestion for what it's worth.

  21. #21
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    Just bad karma because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I run my surly 1x1 with disc brakes...most of you have probably seen a pic of it somewhere in this forum. the pink one...anyways, i rode it for awhile with just bolt-on skewers and would occasionally have the wheel slip but not often. then it slipped on the trail again and i stripped the bolt-on skewer.

    i go out and buy a surly tuggnut and some new salsa ss skewers to replace the ruined bolt-ons. chain tension is amazing and everything seems to be okay. i just went to pisgah for a week and everything was okay but on some really fast descents where the wheels took some major shots the wheel would get dislocated. i have the skewer on REALLY tight.

    just because of this i'm considering selling the frame because i simply cant have that happening during my endurance races. any suggestions?
    How would you feel if someone painted you pink and rode you hard?

    Just kidding.
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  22. #22
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    hmm....it just occured to me that y'all were saying bolt on SKEWER (as opposed to axle). what is the point of a bolt on skewer?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Inbred
    what is the point of a bolt on skewer?
    Theft prevention.
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  24. #24
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    I like my bolt on skewers

    Just run a rear v brake, that's what I had to do on my KM to stop it from slipping but I was also using 185's
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  25. #25
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    A brief discussion on the wheels board not too long ago revealed that bolt-on skewers can achieve tension that a regular QR would need to be hammered shut to develop! Based on this, I plunked down my change for a set from www.oddsandendos.com... I think it's true about the tension thing - the bolt-on is MUCH more effective than the regular qr - but it still wasn't enough to hold the wheel in place on my Chameleon. (I think I might suffer the same braking forces that spooky does, but can't say for sure.) I eventually got a little gung ho and shot the opposite end off my bolt-on skewer across the room, and nearly took my face off doing it. Back to a regular qr for me...
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDizzle
    A brief discussion on the wheels board not too long ago revealed that bolt-on skewers can achieve tension that a regular QR would need to be hammered shut to develop! Based on this, I plunked down my change for a set from www.oddsandendos.com... I think it's true about the tension thing - the bolt-on is MUCH more effective than the regular qr - but it still wasn't enough to hold the wheel in place on my Chameleon. (I think I might suffer the same braking forces that spooky does, but can't say for sure.) I eventually got a little gung ho and shot the opposite end off my bolt-on skewer across the room, and nearly took my face off doing it. Back to a regular qr for me...
    i had the same bolt-ons from oddsandendo.com. they were great but i knew when i got them i would end up stripping them eventually. i'm not so sure how much tighter they actually get because to get them super tight you end up stripping them unless you are VERY careful and when sweating, out of breath, and pissed your wheel moved on the trail it's hard to stay calm and not strip them

  27. #27
    paintbucket
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Inbred
    what is the point of a bolt on skewer?
    Mine are purple and titanium Who needs a point?

    OTOH, I don't run them on an SS either.....
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

  28. #28
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    Looks like i'll be selling my pretty pink frame and fork on ebay or the classifieds in a few weeks. Shame...i really like the ride. It seems the surly is a v-brake only beast unless you take a bunch of measures to make it work with discs that i'm just not really willing to do. I can't help it, i'm a weight weenie and dont like having to slap two chaintugs on, bolt on axle, etc. and that still might not fix it. i'm horrible mechanically as well and can't handle the stress

    I would like to get one from on-one but i just read they are built for 100mm forks and i just bought an 80rlt and really like it. probably going to get a kona 'a' with a remote lockout lever or if i cant find any opinions or information on it i'll get the unit. Luckily i live sorta near vicious cycles and shall head up there before building up the new frame and have them spruce my paint job up a bit...

  29. #29
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    Thanks. I'd consider custom made but two months is a long time to wait when it's peak riding season and the big enduro races are going to start in june for me. I thought with the kona the sliding bolt thing was comparable to the EBB but actually better according to some because it was lighter, didnt creak, and worked just as well. I'm definitely going to call kona before i make any purchase though to avoid any more problems. still have the peyto?

  30. #30
    Kam
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    good luck...

    hey sean, this is kam, we spoke briefly over the phone when you were interested in my peyto ebb ss frame a couple of months ago.

    sorry life with the surly isn't working out. if you want a ss frame and want to use discs, a regular qr rear hub and have the advantage oof quick tire changes...then i (and alot of other ss'ers here on this board) will tell you ya gotta go ebb. check out www.tetcycles.com. tom's "special" of ss frames with a bushnell ebb is just freakin' crazy. i think his turn around time is about 2 months, maybe abit less. i seriously considered tet for a 29er ss frame before i placed an order for a kelly roshambo.

    if you're looking at the kona a and unit, beware, that frame also uses horizontal dropouts and you may find yourself in the same situation (the problem you are having with your surly). hopefully it was the rear disc brake that was causing the problems, but you can also get slippage from the drivetrain.

    my kelly frame will have sub 11 dropouts like your surly and i thought about trying to use a salsa qr with the king classic rear hub i will be using. after thinking about it, it looks like i am going to be ordering the heavy duty rear axle/bolt on option for the rear hub from king tomorrow.

    i'm kinda wondering how ss life will be without an ebb, but i will be using v-brakes so i'm sure i'll get used to it.

    cheers and good luck.

    Oh, and by the way, i really enjoyed your pisgah post...great write up!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Looks like i'll be selling my pretty pink frame and fork on ebay or the classifieds in a few weeks. Shame...i really like the ride. It seems the surly is a v-brake only beast unless you take a bunch of measures to make it work with discs that i'm just not really willing to do. I can't help it, i'm a weight weenie and dont like having to slap two chaintugs on, bolt on axle, etc. and that still might not fix it. i'm horrible mechanically as well and can't handle the stress

    I would like to get one from on-one but i just read they are built for 100mm forks and i just bought an 80rlt and really like it. probably going to get a kona 'a' with a remote lockout lever or if i cant find any opinions or information on it i'll get the unit. Luckily i live sorta near vicious cycles and shall head up there before building up the new frame and have them spruce my paint job up a bit...

  31. #31
    Kam
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    cool...

    yea, i think sliding dropouts are great. i think on-one has a nice tinbred with sliding dropouts...try emailing brant.

    peyto's sold, the guy is lovin' it. the geo. never really suited me well, but it rode smoother than any other hardtail i had ever ridin'.

    cheers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Thanks. I'd consider custom made but two months is a long time to wait when it's peak riding season and the big enduro races are going to start in june for me. I thought with the kona the sliding bolt thing was comparable to the EBB but actually better according to some because it was lighter, didnt creak, and worked just as well. I'm definitely going to call kona before i make any purchase though to avoid any more problems. still have the peyto?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Looks like i'll be selling my pretty pink frame and fork on ebay or the classifieds in a few weeks. Shame...i really like the ride. It seems the surly is a v-brake only beast unless you take a bunch of measures to make it work with discs that i'm just not really willing to do. I can't help it, i'm a weight weenie and dont like having to slap two chaintugs on, bolt on axle, etc. and that still might not fix it. i'm horrible mechanically as well and can't handle the stress
    Man, if you're a weight weenie then a v-brake would be lighter than a disc anyhow, and much less hassle in a race! It seems like you're trying to come up with a reason to get rid of your bike, although if you are indeed a weight weenie I'm surprised you can sleep at night with a surly in your house, they're built like tanks! Just make sure you think long and hard about selling your bike or you might end up regretting it. I have a surly and I love it, I'll never part with it, it just rides sooo good! But do what is best for you, I just hate for a surly to be orphaned!

  33. #33
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    I must be right with Jesus then.................

    Interesting thread.

    I have a 04 Redline with Avid cable discs,a nutted rear axle and tugs on both sides. I weigh about 200 and am not a smooth rider, in fact I would describe my riding style as............. "Huh,I missed a rock back there?-I better go back and pound it back down into the ground with my front tire"

    I've had the rear wheel off a couple times and have never ever had a problem with the rear axle moving. Sure isn't anything special I am doing!

    Geo

  34. #34
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    On-One EBB frames are built for 80 to 100mm forks. And work well with either.

    80mm makes the frame handle faster (71deg head) whilst the 100mm makes it handle slower (70deg head)

  35. #35
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    Try these chain tugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    I run my surly 1x1 with disc brakes...most of you have probably seen a pic of it somewhere in this forum. the pink one...anyways, i rode it for awhile with just bolt-on skewers and would occasionally have the wheel slip but not often. then it slipped on the trail again and i stripped the bolt-on skewer.

    i go out and buy a surly tuggnut and some new salsa ss skewers to replace the ruined bolt-ons. chain tension is amazing and everything seems to be okay. i just went to pisgah for a week and everything was okay but on some really fast descents where the wheels took some major shots the wheel would get dislocated. i have the skewer on REALLY tight.

    just because of this i'm considering selling the frame because i simply cant have that happening during my endurance races. any suggestions?
    Hi,

    I'm running Deore Hubs with QR skeweres on my Pink 1x1 and everything is fine. No real slippage, perhaps a bit of tension required at the end of each ride. I'm using BMX chain tugs on both sides. Check the photo. They cost $20 for two, the same price as one tuggnut and apart from the fact I can't open beer bottles with them, they do everything I need!

    Rob
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TACSTS
    Man, if you're a weight weenie then a v-brake would be lighter than a disc anyhow, and much less hassle in a race! It seems like you're trying to come up with a reason to get rid of your bike, although if you are indeed a weight weenie I'm surprised you can sleep at night with a surly in your house, they're built like tanks! Just make sure you think long and hard about selling your bike or you might end up regretting it. I have a surly and I love it, I'll never part with it, it just rides sooo good! But do what is best for you, I just hate for a surly to be orphaned!

    I do have limits. I'm not obsessive about weight just prefer lighter weight. I have magura sl and they weigh less than most v-brake setups. The frame isnt THAT much heavier and it doesnt really bother me. Sizing is an issue i havent mentioned i dont think in this thread. I feel the frame is a tad small for me on the TT and standover. Had i been able to test a surly out beforehand i would've gotten a 20" instead of my 18". i use a long stem and my seat is a few inches higher than my dh easton riserbars putting more weight than i'd prefer up front.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    On-One EBB frames are built for 80 to 100mm forks. And work well with either.

    80mm makes the frame handle faster (71deg head) whilst the 100mm makes it handle slower (70deg head)
    Thanks for letting me know that. the surly i ride right now is 71 and i like the way it handles.

  38. #38
    indigosky
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    Hey English Bob,

    Quote Originally Posted by English Bob
    Hi,

    I'm running Deore Hubs with QR skeweres on my Pink 1x1 and everything is fine. No real slippage, perhaps a bit of tension required at the end of each ride. I'm using BMX chain tugs on both sides. Check the photo. They cost $20 for two, the same price as one tuggnut and apart from the fact I can't open beer bottles with them, they do everything I need!

    Rob
    What brand are the tugs, and where are they available? Thanks!

  39. #39
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    I use Crupi

    Quote Originally Posted by indigosky
    What brand are the tugs, and where are they available? Thanks!
    Hi,

    They're made by crupi (http://www.crupibmx.com/axle_tensioners_nuts.htm). You can order from their site, they may be on QBP's list? Try Google. I'm in the Netherlands and got them though www.bike2build.nl.

    And I think that riderx, higher up in this thread is using them aswell, but he doesn't clean his bike as often as I do .

    Note, I am using a QR and not a solid bolt, so there is a little bit of room for play. The Surly Tugnutt has a washer that reduces the diameter down to that of a QR. Anyway, I've been fine so far and I don't mind re-tensioning every once in a while.

    I'd be interested if anyone has any other experience with crupi on their Surly.

    Rob

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by English Bob
    And I think that riderx, higher up in this thread is using them aswell, but he doesn't clean his bike as often as I do
    Yep, those are Crupi. I needed to replace the stock screws with longer ones, but otherwise have no complaints.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed
    I like my bolt on skewers

    Just run a rear v brake, that's what I had to do on my KM to stop it from slipping but I was also using 185's
    So you've discovered the 185's slip more than a 160's? I'm in the process of putting discs on my KM and have been debating which size rotor to use. I'm having to use the Monkey Nuts due to the front der(forgive me) clearance issue. I have a feelijg this will cause better chances of slippage.

    I've been very close to snagging some 185's for more power, but the 160's will most likely work as well ,if not better, than my V's.

    Lemme know.

  42. #42
    Back of the pack fat guy
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    Picture of a solution for you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookykinkajou
    Looks like i'll be selling my pretty pink frame and fork on ebay or the classifieds in a few weeks. Shame...i really like the ride. It seems the surly is a v-brake only beast unless you take a bunch of measures to make it work with discs that i'm just not really willing to do. I can't help it, i'm a weight weenie and dont like having to slap two chaintugs on, bolt on axle, etc. and that still might not fix it. i'm horrible mechanically as well and can't handle the stress

    I would like to get one from on-one but i just read they are built for 100mm forks and i just bought an 80rlt and really like it. probably going to get a kona 'a' with a remote lockout lever or if i cant find any opinions or information on it i'll get the unit. Luckily i live sorta near vicious cycles and shall head up there before building up the new frame and have them spruce my paint job up a bit...
    Spooky -

    Here's a pic of the rear of my 1x1 - disc brake + two tugs + bolt on axle = no wheel slippage. I had the same setup on my SISS and never had any problems with wheel slippage there either. Seems a shame to waste that 1x1, but sounds like you may also have the common biking malady of upgradeitis!
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthpig
    Spooky -

    Here's a pic of the rear of my 1x1 - disc brake + two tugs + bolt on axle = no wheel slippage. I had the same setup on my SISS and never had any problems with wheel slippage there either. Seems a shame to waste that 1x1, but sounds like you may also have the common biking malady of upgradeitis!
    If the frame fit perfectly i'd consider slapping all the stuff on the rear but since i'm not totally happy with the 18" size(need 20") i'm looking for other options. right now i'm leaning towards the kona line either the unit or maybe the "a" if i can get some feedback from people or kona themselves.

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