SS with two ratios / one chain length?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Idea! SS with two ratios / one chain length?

    (Been kicking this one around a while, and need outside input. I think this is a situation where me having only "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".)

    I have a SS conversion with the Forte / Performance tensioner kit and a 42/32/22 crankset. I like 42/16 (2.6:1) on the road and 32/20 (1.6:1) or 32/18 (1.8:1) on the trail. The spacers and sprockets in the Forte kit allow me to line up two sprockets on the rear with two chainrings in front. If there was some combination of sprockets that allowed a single chain length, I could change from one ratio to another by manually moving the chain from one pair of cogs to the other and adjusting the offset on the tensioner.

    Is there some combination of chainrings and sprockets that will let me run a single chain length? For example, I can get close to the ratios I want with 35/14 and 32/18. The total tooth count is close, 49 and 50. But the sprocket diameters and chainstay length clearly factor into equation, and I guess link length as well.

    The alternatives are either (1) retain the difference in chain length (via a removable/replaceable segment) or (2) use two separate chains. The second option has the practical advantage of not wearing the chain as fast as the sprockets.

    So, elegant or stupid? Be honest!

  2. #2
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    search dingle

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    Honestly? Just put a derailleur, shifter and cassette on it... problem solved.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneBadWagon
    search dingle
    That might be the most effective two-word post I've encountered. Lots of useful results, and clearly not an original idea on my part.

    DA, I know gears are an answer. However, I've tasted SS -- and would sooner add a second full SS bike than re-gearify this one.

  5. #5
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    eno also makes something called the double/double.

    the crank has 2 gears, and the freewheel has 2 gears...

    http://www.whiteind.com/ENO-cranks-specs.html
    Ibis Tranny 29


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by zelig
    would sooner add a second full SS bike than re-gearify this one.
    So adding another gear is not re-gearifying?

    I'm curious what people think, is it still a singlespeed at that point?

  7. #7
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    Easy enough that someone could've answered...

    As long as you gain and lose the same number of teeth, front vs. rear, you're golden.

    For example, I run a 36/32 up front and a 21/25 out back. So 36/21 for almost all of my riding, and 32/25 as a "granny" for LONG STEEP stuff that really isn't SSable in a reasonable all-around ratio.

    I don't

  8. #8
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    it's still single speed if you do this. it's like... dual single speed. you have to manually change the chain, it's just nice to have an option.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by zelig
    I can get close to the ratios I want with 35/14 and 32/18. The total tooth count is close, 49 and 50. But the sprocket diameters and chainstay length clearly factor into equation, and I guess link length as well.
    Run a 36/32 in front and a 14/18 in the rear. Then you could switch between 36 x 14 & 32 x 18, with one chain length and no chain adjustment required.
    Does that combo do it for ya?
    Todd............. If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Speeder
    As long as you gain and lose the same number of teeth, front vs. rear, you're golden.
    Beauty!


    Quote Originally Posted by 32seventeen
    Run a 36/32 in front and a 14/18 in the rear. Then you could switch between 36 x 14 & 32 x 18, with one chain length and no chain adjustment required.
    Does that combo do it for ya?
    I think it will -- it's one of the best combos I have been able to arrive at with the spreadsheet I've been playing with.

    One more thing...

    Having sifted through the "dingle" search results, it seems this is still a touchy subject among SS purists. It gives me a sincere appreciation for all the considerate, objective feedback I've received here. Thank you all.
    Last edited by zelig; 12-29-2007 at 09:52 PM. Reason: emphasis added, so I don't have to quote myself

  11. #11
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    How about a Schlumpf speed drive?

  12. #12
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    I just finished setting up a Cross Check dingle-style with 34 & 38 rings and 15 & 19 cogs. That gives me a 67"ish gear on the road and 48"ish gear on the trails, with 172.5 cranks and 700x35 tires. I thought about the WI double double, but aside from the steep $370 entry fee, the 3-tooth difference didn't give me the range I wanted.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamjam
    I just finished setting up a Cross Check dingle-style with 34 & 38 rings and 15 & 19 cogs. That gives me a 67"ish gear on the road and 48"ish gear on the trails, with 172.5 cranks and 700x35 tires. I thought about the WI double double, but aside from the steep $370 entry fee, the 3-tooth difference didn't give me the range I wanted.
    I have a feeling that is quite common with the White Industries setup.

  14. #14
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    Dingles are sweet.

    Screw the purists. I run a 38/34, 16/20 x 29". The 38x16 gets me to and from the trail head without driving me bonkers. It can be a challenge with an ebb though as there is "some" chain length difference.
    Jeff

  15. #15
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    I tried with the forte kit, but couldn't get both a 32:16 and 32:20 to work with the same chain, so I just grabbed another chain, problem solved.

  16. #16
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    Ive gotta 3 ratio option setup on my monocog29er.

    36x16 for road/fire road jamin'
    32x20 for allround offroad duties
    28x24 for playing/trials/granny climbin'

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by presslab
    How about a Schlumpf speed drive?
    That is an interesting piece of gear.
    Does anyone know if these units are suitable for XC mountainbiking.
    How crud proof are they?

  18. #18
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    I've done it on a cheap build using 38/48 biopace rings and 28/18 cogs.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  19. #19
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    two speeders

    I thought this was the SINGLESPEED forum. Two ratios is not a singlespeed, no matter how slow you shift; or if you need a wrench to do it !!!!

  20. #20
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    How about an internally geared rear hub? The SRAM I-motion three sounds like what you are looking for.

    The singlespeed fundamentalists will try to burn you as a heretic, but who cares what they think?
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeMendo
    I thought this was the SINGLESPEED forum. Two ratios is not a singlespeed, no matter how slow you shift; or if you need a wrench to do it !!!!
    Get out of here with that mess. If you can't shift it during a ride, it's good enough for me. Seriously, I live 8 miles away from my local trail. Do you know how much it sucks riding through traffic on Rampages with 32x18? Sucks.

  22. #22
    meh... whatever
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    I thought this was the SINGLESPEED forum. Two ratios is not a singlespeed, no matter how slow you shift; or if you need a wrench to do it !!!!
    oh brother...

    dont pay any attention to this kind of tripe. statements like this are generally made by posers who singlespeed because it is "kewl" or "hip" or "in" and/or because they feel like they are making a statement.

    the fact is that any bike that is designed not to be shifted while riding, thus only allowing the rider ONE GEAR RATIO for whatever comes down the trail is a singlespeed.

    on a singlespeed bike, cogs/rings of various tooth counts can be swapped either in a garage or at the trail head or for convenience kept bolted to the bike (i.e. a dingle speed) requiring that the wheel be loosened and the chain be moved and wheel retightened. but they are all still singlespeeds.

    i have several setups like this. one of which is on my fixed karate monkey. 32t up front with a 17/21 fixed cog in the rear. i use an enclosed cam qr with tug and it takes about 30 seconds to change ratios. one for flatter smoother stuff or commuting (29er fat tire fixed gear inner city riding is a blast!), and one for hilly off road stuff. the dingle cog saves the trouble of having to flip the rear wheel around at the trail head. its awesome!
    Last edited by monogod; 12-29-2007 at 04:12 PM.
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  23. #23
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    ... and if we just ... Update! (Like anyone cares!)

    Guess BikeMendo skipped post #10 and bumped this thread wanting an update? Alright, then!

    I am currently at 36/16 and 32/20 and can swap without removing the wheel, though I still need a wrench for the pinch bolt on the Forté tensioner pulley. (Chainline, ya know.) Also have a 14t sprocket standing by for a little more road range. More importantly, a dear old bike I had given up on has been reborn as both a weekday commuter and a rigid SS trailbike. It was cheap and I am happy.

    (I apologize if my chosen path to happiness offends anyone.)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    oh brother...

    dont pay any attention to this kind of tripe. statements like this are generally made by posers who singlespeed because it is "kewl" or "hip" or "in" and/or because they feel like they are making a statement.

    the fact is that any bike that is designed not to be shifted while riding, thus only allowing the rider ONE GEAR RATIO for whatever comes down the trail is a singlespeed.

    on a singlespeed bike, cogs/rings of various tooth counts can be swapped either in a garage or at the trail head or for convenience kept bolted to the bike (i.e. a dingle speed) requiring that the wheel be loosened and the chain be moved and wheel retightened. but they are all still singlespeeds.

    i have several setups like this. one of which is on my fixed karate monkey. 32t up front with a 17/21 fixed cog in the rear. i use an enclosed cam qr with tug and it takes about 30 seconds to change ratios. one for flatter smoother stuff or commuting (29er fat tire fixed gear inner city riding is a blast!), and one for hilly off road stuff. the dingle cog saves the trouble of having to flip the rear wheel around at the trail head. its awesome!
    Hi monogod,
    I like the dingle idea, but I am a little bit concerned about chainline, Is really a problem or not? And the dingle cog is only for fixed right, are there any freewheel options out there, besides the double double from WI, they only have 2t difference, a bit small IMO.
    thanks

  25. #25
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    Here is mine... 32X20 and 36X16... I just shaved a little bit off the axles (ghetto eno) to account for the slight bit of chain growth.
    Ignore the so called "Purists". You'll be smiling as you pass them to get to the trailhead or save some coin by not having to put your bike on a rack to get to the trails...




  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    the fact is that any bike that is designed not to be shifted while riding, thus only allowing the rider ONE GEAR RATIO for whatever comes down the trail is a singlespeed.
    Maybe I'm just stupid... but I don't understand how SHIFTING to another gear ratio mid-ride is not A SECOND GEAR RATIO.

    Don't get me wrong, please do whatever floats your boat. But IMO... I would not call that a singlespeed anymore.
    Last edited by dumbaSS; 12-30-2007 at 08:33 AM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by raposu
    Hi monogod,
    I like the dingle idea, but I am a little bit concerned about chainline, Is really a problem or not? And the dingle cog is only for fixed right, are there any freewheel options out there, besides the double double from WI, they only have 2t difference, a bit small IMO.
    thanks
    no, chainline is not a problem at all. the offset is very, very slight and minuscule. and yes, the dingle is a fixed cog only.

    wi is the only fw that i know of that is a dos, and yes, it would be nice if there were a greater tooth count difference.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    Maybe I'm just stupid...
    i dunno about all that, but we cant help but notice your user name IS "dumba</>ss".

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    I don't understand how SHIFTING to another gear ratio mid-ride is not A SECOND GEAR RATIO.
    no one said it wasnt A SECOND GEAR RATIO. it is simply one that cannot be used while riding. imho unless one is a staunch/elitist "ss purist" that still doesnt disqualify it as a singlespeed.

    perhaps a more in depth explanation is in order...

    if you lived or traveled anywhere that you frequently rode varying terrain, some of it flatter and faster and some of it mountainous or lots of climbing; or if you traveled some place requiring a long ride on the road to get to the trails (i.e. moab) you would see the reasoning behind it. for example, in moab you have to ride many, many miles (10-25+) to get to some of the trails. doing so with trail gearing means you spin... A LOT... wasting a lot of time and energy getting there slowly.

    so (to use flip for an example) riding TO the trails he would use the 36/16 to cover ground faster. then at the trail head he puts it on the 32/20 and rides the trails.

    get it now?

    for instance, if you ever go to moab riding up to lps is ok on trail gearing because it is a long, drawn out climb of over 14 miles. but riding trail gearing to hurrah, amasa back, sovereign, baby steps, gemini bridges, burro, etc really SUCKS and wastes a ton of time and energy.

    so you ride TO the trail on the "road" gearing, and ride ON the trail on the "trail" gearing. its not so you can stop and switch gearing to clean a particular section, or go faster on a particular section.

    btw, is your cog or fw permanently affixed to your hub? if not, then the possibility exists to change to A SECOND GEAR RATIO and, according to your logic, is not a "true/pure" singlespeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    I would not call that a singlespeed anymore.
    and no one will think the worse of you for doing so as they fly past you on the road riding to the trail head while youre spinning like a hamster on crack in a wheel. to each his own, bro!

    but the bottom line is it doesnt matter if my "imho", flips "imho", or anyone elses "imho" and your "imho" dont line up. we're still ridin!!! so happy trails!
    Last edited by monogod; 12-30-2007 at 05:27 PM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    btw, is your cog or fw permanently affixed to your hub? if not, then the possibility exists to change to A SECOND GEAR RATIO and, according to your logic, is not a "true/pure"
    Grasping there... big difference between the capability of doing something and actually doing something. I do not carry extra gears with me in any way when I'm on a singlespeed ride.

    So when you say "one is all you need" you really mean one to get you to the trails, a different one to get you around the trails, and a switch back to the original one to get you home again. Sounds like two to me.

    But as you said... to each his own, enjoy your doublespeed.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    Grasping there... big difference between the capability of doing something and actually doing something.
    so by this logic if someone set up a dingle and never changed it then it would still be a singlespeed since they never actually changed gears. for that matter, by your logic a gearie who chose not to shift would also be riding a singlespeed.

    after all, "big difference between the capability of doing something and actually doing something."**

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    I do not carry extra gears with me in any way when I'm on a singlespeed ride.
    nor do you probably ride 10, 20, or more miles TO the trail on your singlespeed ride but transport your "pure" singlespeed to the trail via your automobile; and THATS why you dont get it. or if you do, you either LOVE to spin and waste tons of energy or are in no hurry to get there.

    and just cuz you dont carry extra gears with you doesnt mean it cant be done. you have the option to carry different gears with you, and you have the option to change to A SECOND GEAR RATIO at home before you load up your bike and DRIVE IT TO THE TRAIL. thus is not a "pure" singlespeed. nor is it a "pure" singlespeed if you have EVER changed the gearing on it. i mean, after all... you ARE a purist, arent you?

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    So when you say "one is all you need" you really mean one to get you to the trails, a different one to get you around the trails, and a switch back to the original one to get you home again.
    nope. means on the trails.**

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    sounds like two to me
    it is. but what you fail to miss is that it is like having TWO BIKES**. its like getting a road ride AND a mountain ride all in one. one bike to ride to the trails on without spinning like a hamster on crack, and one bike to ride the trails on.

    get it now?

    if you have any ss/fixed road bikes, are they geared the same as your ss mtn bike? no? well why is that?????

    **guess you picked the right user name after all...

    EDIT: meet us in moab next year (i go twice a year) and ride with us. youll "get it" then.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    it is. but what you fail to miss is that it is like having TWO BIKES**. its like getting a road ride AND a mountain ride all in one. one bike to ride to the trails on without spinning like a hamster on crack, and one bike to ride the trails on.

    get it now?
    Yeah I get it now... it's like a bike with two gears.

  32. #32
    meh... whatever
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbaSS
    Yeah I get it now... its like a bike with two gears
    two gears [speeds] which cannot be shifted between while riding, thus the rider only has access to a SINGLE speed.
    Last edited by monogod; 12-30-2007 at 07:28 PM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  33. #33
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    There is no getting through to him.

    I like the advantages of the dinglespeed, I just don't know if I want the extra weight. Plus if I did it I would have to do a 17/19 WI DOS to match a 17/19 Surly Dingle... now if WI did a 17/20 or a 17/21 to match the other Surly Dingles I would be buying them right now. I just have two chains and two wheelsets, one fixed, one freewheel. 32/14 for the street with Big Apples and 32/18 for mountain biking. The Karate Monkey is too fun of a bike to not ride it on the street as well as off road.

  34. #34
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    I have a commuting trek that has 1 chainring and 2 cogs. I managed to use something like a 17/19 and the tensioner takes up the slack. Very easy to switch and good for getting to the trail and low enough for hills. Does fine and is kept simple.
    Opinions are like A-holes. Everybody has one and they usually stink.

  35. #35
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    Ebb

    Another option is one front chainring and two cogs in the back. I run 32x20 for the trails and an extra 16T surly cog in the back next to the 20T. The EBB covers enough tension distance to cover both cogs. Works very well.
    "Nothing is free."

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  36. #36
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    B_Aero... i did that with my peace 9'r. that's the beauty of cogs, you can fit whatever you want on the hub.

    now i have WI freewheel. just one gear ratio for me. 32:16. should be OK
    Ibis Tranny 29


  37. #37
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    Maximum tooth difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by B_Aero
    The EBB covers enough tension distance to cover both cogs. Works very well.
    I'm putting together an XXIX. Do you know what the maximum tooth difference an EBB can cover? Right now you're running a 4 tooth difference, have you ever had a bigger gap than that?

    Thanks,
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  38. #38
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    Purest and bike snobs of all sorts will tilt their nose upwards if you don't do something that conforms to their OPINION. Ride the way that makes you happy and don't give a hoot about anybody else. And I thought SS'ers were the most laid back and welcoming bunch on this forum.

  39. #39
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    Ride what you want !!!

    Yo, dumbass!!;
    and monogod, et al. You got me all wrong. I couldn't give a flying $*#@ what you ride.
    Whatever trips your triggershifter. Just don't call it a singlespeed unless it are one !!!!!!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeMendo
    Yo, dumbass!!;
    and monogod, et al. You got me all wrong. I couldn't give a flying $*#@ what you ride.
    Whatever trips your triggershifter. Just don't call it a singlespeed unless it are one !!!!!!
    Have you ever tried a different gear ratio on your bike at all? Well if so, then its not a single speed either. There is no defining of mechanical procedure that will constitute if something is a single speed or not. AS LONG AS THERE IS NO DERAILLEUR AND SHIFTER IT IS A SINGLE SPEED. PERIOD! To switch from one gear ratio to another on a dual cog/dual chain ring setup requires tools just like if you went and took a cog out of your Camelbak. It just simplifies things a bit.

  41. #41
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    I have an old Schwinn Mesa that I converted to a rigid 2x2. Once I get my second chainring this week I will be running 32/14 & 26/20. Lower gearing than most of you, but I'm not much of a masher and it helps for getting through the snow. It's fun to mess around on.

  42. #42
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    So what kind of cranks are you guys using to make your double singlespeeds (or whatever you want to call them)? Mountain triples? Road compacts?

    And if I have an Eno Dos on one side and a fixed cog on the other, does that make it a three speed? :rollseyes:

  43. #43
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    I used a 42/32/22 mountain triple -- cheapest thing I could find with replaceable 'rings. I think it was ten bucks at Nashbar. (Then I had to replace the perfectly-good 42 with the 36...)

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