Spiderless Chain Rings? What size? What spline? Who is looking for them?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Spiderless Chain Rings? What size? What spline? Who is looking for them?

    After looking high and low for an option for a Spiderless chain ring other than HBC, I am looking for some market data to see if there is demand for a production run of Spiderless chain rings made from high quality CNC'd 7075 Aluminum by a large company that has been making bike components for over 35 years. the 1st run may be available in only one color (black), and maybe in only 1 or 2 tooth sizes, but if demand is there more sizes and anodized colors can be included later on.

    So, a couple questions i have:

    1) what is the most popular spline type? Sram? Middleburn? White Ind?

    2) What is the most popular tooth size? 32? 34? 36?

    3) What is the most you would pay for this? would you pay $40 w/ free shipping?

    4) Would you be interested in buying multiple sizes?

    I am not a company, just an end user looking for options that may exist for a product that seems to have a demand...

  2. #2
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    I don't see it, but to answer your questions:
    1) Probably equal, with SRAM gaining market share since the design change.
    2) Probably 32t
    3) $0... I like the color options and the all-around business model of HbC.
    4) No

    Tolerance becomes more important on spiderless rings, and my guess is that a big company, which will almost undoubtedly sub the manufacturing to an overseas producer, would have a much harder time with QA/QC.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 12-01-2011 at 03:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    I don't see it, but to answer your questions:
    1) Probably equal, with SRAM gaining market share since the design change.
    2) Probably 32t
    3) $0... I like the color options and the all-around business model of HbC.
    4) No

    Tolerance becomes more important on spiderless rings, and my guess is that a big company, which will almost undoubtedly sub the manufacturing to an overseas producer, would have a much harder time with QA/QC.
    These would not be farmed out overseas, they would be made in the USA, sizes and colors may expand with demand, also spline types. Thanks for your answers

  4. #4
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    HBC is doin fine by me. Thanks anyway.

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    HbC does it for me too. Sorry.

  6. #6
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    1) what is the most popular spline type? Sram? Middleburn? White Ind? if you limit yourself with just popular spline, it will be hard to compete with HBC.

    2) What is the most popular tooth size? 32? 34? 36? if your chainring choices is limited, it will be hard to compete with HBC.

    3) What is the most you would pay for this? would you pay $40 w/ free shipping? 40 for a mass produced ring, no. i rather go custom and pay extra. but then again, it depends on what company will produce these rings.

    4) Would you be interested in buying multiple sizes? yes.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  7. #7
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    Sounds like it to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by darrinw2001 View Post
    ...

    I am not a company, just an end user looking for options that may exist for a product that seems to have a demand...
    And if there is one thing I learned about manufacturing in working with my wife's biz, do it for realz or don't bother. Doing it half-assed will mean you get stuck with a lot of product you can't find a distributor to move for you... or do internet direct sales.

    That means colors, sizes, good quality, and compatible with lots of cranks out there.

    You forgot M952 XTR/M739 XT spline.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishcreek View Post
    1) what is the most popular spline type? Sram? Middleburn? White Ind? if you limit yourself with just popular spline, it will be hard to compete with HBC.

    2) What is the most popular tooth size? 32? 34? 36? if your chainring choices is limited, it will be hard to compete with HBC.

    3) What is the most you would pay for this? would you pay $40 w/ free shipping? 40 for a mass produced ring, no. i rather go custom and pay extra. but then again, it depends on what company will produce these rings.

    4) Would you be interested in buying multiple sizes? yes.
    Just like everything in Mountain biking, not everyone wants or needs custom, handmade products so there is room for lots of different manufacturers. There is a trade off for everything, if you want custom, you pay more and wait, for mass produced, you may pay less, get it faster, but may have a little less quality. Thanks for your answers

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    And if there is one thing I learned about manufacturing in working with my wife's biz, do it for realz or don't bother. Doing it half-assed will mean you get stuck with a lot of product you can't find a distributor to move for you... or do internet direct sales.

    That means colors, sizes, good quality, and compatible with lots of cranks out there.

    You forgot M952 XTR/M739 XT spline.
    And doing market research before jumping into it is also smart.. which is what this is. Thanks for the information!

  10. #10
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    Make one that fits my Trek

  11. #11
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    DW...if I were in the market it would be a 32t, SRAM spline, $40 is fair, and multiple sizes would be great down the road

    It would be great to see some competition for HBC. Perhaps that will motivate him to step up his customer service skills.
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  12. #12
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    I would have to disagree that it would be difficult to compete with HBC. Yes, options are nice, but waiting over two months (or far longer) is a deal breaker for me and surely for others. As long as it's made in the US I don't care if it's made by one guy are a factory. It must be possible to keep the quality high enough on a larger scale. Personally, I would love to see some of the HBC type products more readily available. I would focus on SRAM and Shimano cranks. $40 seems fair. I use 32. Don't forget about 30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atom29 View Post
    I would have to disagree that it would be difficult to compete with HBC. Yes, options are nice, but waiting over two months (or far longer) is a deal breaker for me and surely for others. As long as it's made in the US I don't care if it's made by one guy are a factory. It must be possible to keep the quality high enough on a larger scale. Personally, I would love to see some of the HBC type products more readily available. I would focus on SRAM and Shimano cranks. $40 seems fair. I use 32. Don't forget about 30.
    Thanks for the information!

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    it looks as if Sram/Truvativ offer the most readily available new cranksets with removable spiders. The S1400 seems to have been discontinued, but the X9, X0, XX, and the Truvitiv AKA seem like they will be around awhile. So far 32T seems like it is the most popular, and silver or black is a good color to start with, and of course in 3/32" 8/9/10 speed comp.

    IF these go into production they will be done in smaller batches, Made in the USA, so quality control can be assured. These also will be able to ship immediately when ordered and be at a price that is competitive. They will be made of high quality 7075 Aluminum and will be warrantied for at least 1 year for manufacturer defects. These will not be custom handmade to order pieces, but will be a top quality product for those who wish to have a Spiderless chainring and not have to go the custom route. Even if it is to try it out before buying a custom one from HbC or someone else.

    so, Silver or Black?

  15. #15
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    I don't see it being worth the time and trouble. Your not talking about a single run if your making spider-less rings for different spline designs as well as the different sizes. You'd need to keep ready inventory for the no wait time too. It's a niche market for these at best.

  16. #16
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    Yeah it is pretty niche. But then again so was single speed at one point. And so were 2x9/10 systems. Ideas go from niche to mainstream rapidly. It is a gamble as to which niche idea to put your money on.

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    I'm sure that HBC will be making adjustments to shorten their wait time and remedy the customer service issues shortly. It's not at all unusual to experience the issues with the business side of the operation. Once these are addressed there isn't a large enough market to be worth the investment of time, money.

    The support for HBC is largely due to attention to detail and quality of material that Dan puts into all his parts, You could make rings equal to the quality of HBC but not better. IMO


    Quote Originally Posted by atom29 View Post
    I would have to disagree that it would be difficult to compete with HBC. Yes, options are nice, but waiting over two months (or far longer) is a deal breaker for me and surely for others. As long as it's made in the US I don't care if it's made by one guy are a factory. It must be possible to keep the quality high enough on a larger scale. Personally, I would love to see some of the HBC type products more readily available. I would focus on SRAM and Shimano cranks. $40 seems fair. I use 32. Don't forget about 30.

  18. #18
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    I wish you the best of luck and i hope it works out for you. If you cater to the people who want it now, it'll make less drama for me . But just a forewarning, there's a reason why i have to offer a ton of options, because just a few won't even sell enough to keep the lights on. 7075 isn't cheap or easy to get in the sizes and quantity i order. If you're farming the work out, there's going to be too many hands in the cookie jar to make much of anything from my experience. I manage to make it work somewhat by doing EVERYTHING in house myself with little overhead and offering many options.
    I'm sure you have your business plan and you probably have it figured out, i'm just sharing my experiences, for what it's worth, which may be nothing to ya.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by atom29 View Post
    Yes, options are nice, but waiting over two months (or far longer) is a deal breaker for me and surely for others.
    Waiting over two months is extremely unusual.
    Based on nothing more than a gut feeling from the posts here and Dan's stated volume, my guess would be <1% of the rings and cogs he makes in a year.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    Waiting over two months is extremely unusual.
    Based on nothing more than a gut feeling from the posts here and Dan's stated volume, my guess would be <1% of the rings and cogs he makes in a year.
    I'm not sure of the percentage, but yea, it's generally pretty small in the grand scheme of things, not that it's an excuse. Of course the people with good experiences never really have a reason to come on here looking for threads about me to post in, so that pretty much just leaves the people who complain, and the regulars in here that support me. But i'm well aware that's my own fault.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy8 View Post
    Once these are addressed there isn't a large enough market to be worth the investment of time, money.
    Every market experiences growth and competition. HBC sells plenty of custom Cogs and regular bcd chainrings even though there are tons of options for them out there. having another option for Spiderless chainrings may grow the market for them even more, which could even increase HbC's business making them. I have a buddy of mine who ordered a HbC spiderless chainring and I really liked how the setup looked so i want one for my 1x9 setup.. I am not they type that needs handmade custom stuff to make me feel special so I would have preferred to order a pre-made CR that I could have gotten a lot sooner..

    No matter what HbC does, if he continues to make products custom to order it will always take much longer than a pre-made ready to go product. BTW, my buddy just got a notice his order he did on 10/2/2011 has shipped this last week.. much longer than a 1 month Max window HbC gives on their website... Some don't mind waiting 1 to 2 months for a product, some do...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrinw2001 View Post
    BTW, my buddy just got a notice his order he did on 10/2/2011 has shipped this last week..
    That's actually incorrect. Nothing went out within the past month that was that old.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISuckAtRiding View Post
    That's actually incorrect. Nothing went out within the past month that was that old.
    I am just going by what I was told.. not really looking to argue, but everyone knows custom one man shops will take longer than a pre-made ready to ship product, no doubt..

    But since you joined in on the thread Dan, what is your opinion on why no other company is selling Spiderless CR's? I gather from your post on your website "How to make your own Spiderless Chain Rings" a little competition from some mass produced rings wouldn't worry you, right? is the market that small that no other company wants to bother? I would have thought that even some smaller players like Paul Components or someone similar would step up..

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrinw2001 View Post
    it looks as if Sram/Truvativ offer the most readily available new cranksets with removable spiders. The S1400 seems to have been discontinued, but the X9, X0, XX
    XX ain't spiderless... just FYI.
    Oh, and X7 is.

    I think you're off the mark with demand. There just aren't hundreds of people looking for pre-fab, mass produced rings in one or two configurations. My two cents.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrinw2001 View Post
    I am just going by what I was told.. not really looking to argue, but everyone knows custom one man shops will take longer than a pre-made ready to ship product, no doubt..

    But since you joined in on the thread Dan, what is your opinion on why no other company is selling Spiderless CR's? I gather from your post on your website "How to make your own Spiderless Chain Rings" a little competition from some mass produced rings wouldn't worry you, right? is the market that small that no other company wants to bother? I would have thought that even some smaller players like Paul Components or someone similar would step up..
    If you're about to jump into this market, trash talking would be competition based on hearsay doesn't speak well of you... especially if it's wrong ("that's what i was told" is no excuse). Nor does characterizing potential customers as buying niche/custom parts "to feel special."
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrinw2001 View Post
    I am just going by what I was told.. not really looking to argue, but everyone knows custom one man shops will take longer than a pre-made ready to ship product, no doubt..

    But since you joined in on the thread Dan, what is your opinion on why no other company is selling Spiderless CR's? I gather from your post on your website "How to make your own Spiderless Chain Rings" a little competition from some mass produced rings wouldn't worry you, right? is the market that small that no other company wants to bother? I would have thought that even some smaller players like Paul Components or someone similar would step up..
    I'm just saying i know who you're talking about, and i don't care if you post facts, just make sure they're true first, especially if it's somewhat negative.

    And the more the merrier, have at it!
    It is America afterall

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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    XX ain't spiderless... just FYI.
    Oh, and X7 is.

    I think you're off the mark with demand. There just aren't hundreds of people looking for pre-fab, mass produced rings in one or two configurations. My two cents.
    actually the 2012 X7 is not, I know this because I ordered one and the spider was not removable. SRAM X7 2X10 Crank | SRAM I called Sram and they told only the X9 and above were spiderless, Not the X7.. but the S1400 model , which was technically an X7 for some reason was (which I did buy) but has been discontinued SRAM S1400 2X10 | SRAM .

    I may be off the mark on demand, that is why I am asking.. I certainly am not going to dump $$ into something with little demand, but if demand is there, demand will grow just like all segments of MTbing have.

  28. #28
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    if you can produce a bolt-on cog for $25 shipped, i think it will be a better market for you.
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  29. #29
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    6 bolt ISO cogs.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
    If you're about to jump into this market, trash talking would be competition based on hearsay doesn't speak well of you... especially if it's wrong ("that's what i was told" is no excuse). Nor does characterizing potential customers as buying niche/custom parts "to feel special."
    It is pretty obvious you are a Loyal HbC customer and Dan has a bunch of them i am sure. But it is really hearsay on both parts. Thanks for your input.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrinw2001 View Post
    It is pretty obvious you are a Loyal HbC customer and Dan has a bunch of them i am sure. But it is really hearsay on both parts. Thanks for your input.
    Actually it's not hearsay on my part. I have the records, i know exactly when your friend's ring was ordered and shipped.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    6 bolt ISO cogs.
    How about 6 bolt ISO cogs, and itty bitty 6/iso spiders that fit a variety of cranksets. My reason for going spiderless was to get a 30t chainring on my xt m739 crankset. If a small spider with a 30t ring was available I might have gone that route instead.

  33. #33
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    ooo.. iso spider. since we already derailed the thread, how about a threaded spider for freewheel? or a threaded spider for a threaded cog.
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  34. #34
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    Hey Darrin, stop being a puss. Grow some marketing balls, sink some cash, get some product, and get back to us after all that. Until then, take your red chicklet and gtfo. No one cares about your plans to have who now made at the what when, which in all likelihood won't ever happen anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaskaranddriver View Post
    Hey Darrin, stop being a puss. Grow some marketing balls, sink some cash, get some product, and get back to us after all that. Until then, take your red chicklet and gtfo. No one cares about your plans to have who now made at the what when, which in all likelihood won't ever happen anyway.
    thank you for your input...

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrinw2001 View Post
    After looking high and low for an option for a Spiderless chain ring other than HBC, I am looking for some market data to see if there is demand for a production run of Spiderless chain rings made from high quality CNC'd 7075 Aluminum by a large company that has been making bike components for over 35 years. the 1st run may be available in only one color (black), and maybe in only 1 or 2 tooth sizes, but if demand is there more sizes and anodized colors can be included later on.
    .........

    I am not a company, just an end user looking for options that may exist for a product that seems to have a demand...


    Am I outta line here if I ask the name of the large company under consideration for this project? I'm sure others are curious as well (or maybe not).

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrinw2001 View Post
    But it is really hearsay on both parts.
    Both of which parts?
    Thank you for your input.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
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