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  1. #1
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    Phil wood ebb vs niner bio centric

    Hi!

    Finally I decide to buy a steve potts titanium 29er single speed frame.
    Sliding dropouts or ebb? I use a disc brakes
    wich is the best ebb?
    Chain or belt drive? I like use 32x20
    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodood-jab
    Hi!

    Finally I decide to buy a steve potts titanium 29er single speed frame.
    Sliding dropouts or ebb? I use a disc brakes
    wich is the best ebb?
    Chain or belt drive? I like use 32x20
    Thanks
    There is only one EBB worth considering IMO, and that is a split shell (pinch bolt) type EBB. I have been using one for the past eight years and it has been trouble free and completely quiet. I've grown tired of hearing about all the problems with all other types of EBBs.

    And if you asked me if I would go with a split shell EBB over sliding dropouts if I were buying a new custom frame tomorrow, I would say probably. The Black Cat style pivoting dropouts seem really nifty to me, too.

    My roommate got a belt drive Spot a couple months ago. The jury's out. It slips occasionally on super steeps, and he has the tension REALLY tight. He's concerned that it may be so tight that it could be causing premature wear on his CK BB &/or CK hub. Time will tell.

    Personally, I have no problem with a chain.

    Good luck making the decisions that I wish I got to make.

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  3. #3
    Harmonius Wrench
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    Second vote for a split shell EBB. Mine has been trouble free now going on three years. I have an ambivalence towards sliders. They work okay, but I do not like the look at all.

    Belt drive? No way. It is not something I would even consider. I have personally tried it, had it ratchet, (slip), and I have witnessed belt drives ratchet, squeal, and require riders to walk hills that chain driven single speeds were cleaning no problem. I have not seen this with chain drive. Belt drive also has a limited amount of cog choices which may not be what you want. (Mostly larger size cogs to increase tooth contact to prevent slippage, and increase efficiency) The larger cogs may cause problems with clearances if you were going to have a frame designed for big tires. (Seen that issue before with belt drive as well)

    I have a friend with a custom Potts 29"er and it is stunning! I am sure you will be similarly impressed when you get yours. Congrats!
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  4. #4
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    Either split shell, or go with a standard shell and use a FC EBB (less geometry change).

    Issues with expanding types are numerous.

  5. #5
    Teen Wolf
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    no belt drive, use a chain. simple, cheap, proven, easily replaceable.

  6. #6
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    as everybody has an ahole, everybody has an opinion and mine is that EBBs, of all sorts, suck ass, period

  7. #7
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    Pretty simple, Potts can tap into any number of California suppliers:

    1. Black Cat drops in stainless
    2. Paragon Machine Works siding dropouts in titanium
    3. Phil EBB with Paragon Wright vert drops
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  8. #8
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    I've only every used one EBB, which is a Phil Wood w/ a set screw bottom bracket shell on my Singular. Before I actually tried one I thought I wouldn't like an EBB from all the creaking, slipping, and maintenance horror stories you hear.
    But I love it.
    Silent and stays put.
    So far I've got a 4 cog range with the same chain (might be able to get 5 but haven't tried a 21 yet), and haven't found a need to adjust my saddle height or fore and aft.
    I can see how a split shell could be a better design as you are not screwing into the EBB creating little notches (in the 6 months I've had my bike this hasn't been an issue, but it's in the back of my mind).
    Another bonus I've got with the Phil Wood EBB is the precision machined surfaces. In the past I've had longevity issues with outboard bearing bottom brackets. So far this XT set has lasted through the Winter and a wet Spring race season without developing any play, which is a lot better than I have experienced in the past.

    Belt vs. Chain? I change my gear ratio often for different courses, so a belt drive would be too much cash up front for cogs and belts, although they might last longer.

  9. #9
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    I have a Niner Biocentric...had some issues at first that turned out to be installation & torque related (The new ones have solved this problem). Over the last couple months it has now been problem free. Very happy with the ease of use, the amount of throw (more than in internal ebb) and of course the 100g's.
    I no longer deserve a signature. :skep:

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Second vote for a split shell EBB. Mine has been trouble free now going on three years. I have an ambivalence towards sliders. They work okay, but I do not like the look at all.

    Belt drive? No way. It is not something I would even consider. I have personally tried it, had it ratchet, (slip), and I have witnessed belt drives ratchet, squeal, and require riders to walk hills that chain driven single speeds were cleaning no problem. I have not seen this with chain drive. Belt drive also has a limited amount of cog choices which may not be what you want. (Mostly larger size cogs to increase tooth contact to prevent slippage, and increase efficiency) The larger cogs may cause problems with clearances if you were going to have a frame designed for big tires. (Seen that issue before with belt drive as well)

    I have a friend with a custom Potts 29"er and it is stunning! I am sure you will be similarly impressed when you get yours. Congrats!

    Do you have some pictures of Steve Potts 29er???

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodood-jab
    Hi!

    Finally I decide to buy a steve potts titanium 29er single speed frame.
    Sliding dropouts or ebb? I use a disc brakes
    wich is the best ebb?
    Chain or belt drive? I like use 32x20
    Thanks
    If you are strong or big, I would HIGHLY discourage ANY EBB.
    Track ends w/ tug, sliders or that Black Cat thang...................
    Get a chain for $15 and avoid being a beta tester for the belt drive movement.
    Remember, the jack you drop on this frame could feed a family of four for two years
    EricN
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    If you are strong or big, I would HIGHLY discourage ANY EBB.
    ...
    Not sure why you say this. Take me for instance... I'm strong... and big... 200#, 6'3"; I've beat my bike including contested the 100 mile Cascade Cream Puff (~15,000' vertical gain) on my 195mm crank-equipped, split-shell EBB-equipped singlespeed. No problems in eight years... please tell what motivates you to offer this advice. Thanks.

    --Sparty
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  13. #13
    Harmonius Wrench
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodood-jab
    Do you have some pictures of Steve Potts 29er???
    Glad to oblige.

    This is my buddy Ben Witt's rig, he of Milltown Cycle out here in the Mid-West. He got the sliders on his, which is fine, I just prefer the cleaner look of an EBB.

    As you can see though, Steve Pott's work is awesome. Clean and simple, but stunning none the less. From what I hear from Ben, it rides even better.

    Cheers!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Phil wood ebb vs niner bio centric-frostbike10-2-002.jpg  

    Phil wood ebb vs niner bio centric-frostbike10-2-003.jpg  

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Glad to oblige.

    This is my buddy Ben Witt's rig, he of Milltown Cycle out here in the Mid-West. He got the sliders on his, which is fine, I just prefer the cleaner look of an EBB.

    As you can see though, Steve Pott's work is awesome. Clean and simple, but stunning none the less. From what I hear from Ben, it rides even better.

    Cheers!
    nice pictures!

    Thank you

  15. #15
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    I would not do a set screw in ti. I had one, and the ti shell ovalized terribly. I would imagine that most builders would use the Paragon shell, and I can't see how anybody would not end up eventually in the same boat.

    I didn't mind my steel split shell. I didn't like all the contamination, but it never was a problem. Remove, clean, reinstall... easy schmeasy.

    My Bushnell worked great, but it did put some binding issues on my bottom bracket until I went with external bearings. Lotsa anti-seize kept it quiet and proper use of a torque wrench kept it from slipping.

    I didn't mind the sliders on my MOOTS. They did take a little longer to set up, sometimes they clicked while riding (just needed a little lube/grease), and they would sometimes slip a little right after I set the tension. Centering the wheel was probably the biggest PITA... albeit only a few minutes of PITA. I still have my MOOTS, and I like it just fine.


    outdated picture with old PMW hardware that has since been upgraded

    I really like the Niner EBB, but that's not an option in ti, unless you can get someone to make the shell. It's my favorite so far.

    I'd love to try track ends, but then again I've never experienced the whole disc brake/rear wheel removal/aligning the caliper with gear changes... I'm talking out of my ass since I've never had them, but I love the simplicity of it all, that is, assuming it's all that simple.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Not sure why you say this. Take me for instance... I'm strong... and big... 200#, 6'3"; I've beat my bike including contested the 100 mile Cascade Cream Puff (~15,000' vertical gain) on my 195mm crank-equipped, split-shell EBB-equipped singlespeed. No problems in eight years... please tell what motivates you to offer this advice. Thanks.

    --Sparty
    my Bushnell, and split shell (with the Bushnell) both slip; a lot if I just grease the shell (sans teflon tape).
    I had the builder cut the shell, and modify the frame to be a 'pinch bolt' style, after all the issues I had with the EBB. (the builder no longer uses EBB that I know of).
    I now have to wrap the shell in teflon tape to eliminate the LOUD creaking and the slip.
    the modification has made the slip better, but it still wont stay put.
    the tesion will stay 'adequate' for 5-10 hours of rifding, but the chain starts to get a bit loose. No possible way to use it for fixed gear riding (which was one of the hopes when I first bought the frame).
    I finally got a bike with track ends and a chaintug................and now I can finally ride fixed becasue the tension does not 'slip' after being on the bike for an hour.
    maybe I just have a 'lemon' but the tensioner has been nothing but a PITA since I bought the frame in 2006.
    judging by some of the other chatter on these boards, I'm not sure I am alone.

    Sparty, what frame do you ride?
    EricN
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    ...

    Sparty, what frame do you ride?
    My split shell / pinch bolt EBB equipped frame is a custom Vulture. The tolerance between the Co-Motion eccentric and thick-wall BB shell is so close that there's no possible way that anything but grease would fit between them. I'd never be able to get teflon tape around the eccentric and slide it into the shell. When I rotate the eccentric, I have to put some effort into it (even with no tension whatsoever on the pinch bolts) to get the eccentric to move. The shell is perfectly round -- no weld distortion.

    Perhaps the problem is builder to builder. That is to say, experience with materials and general framebuilding experience specific to EBBs. I absolutely feel fortunate that mine works so well considering the horror stories surrounding EBBs I've read here on MTBR over the years. Wade of Vulture Cycles is an awesome builder out of Bend, OR (3 hours from where I live); I have many local friends with EBB-equipped Vultures as well, not one of them has any complaints, EBB or otherwise.

    Sorry, this didn't start out to be a plug for Vulture, but it sure did turn into one.

    --Sparty
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  18. #18
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    So what did you finally decide Phil Woods v. Niner Biocentric? I am in queue for a Steve Potts ti build for my Rohloff (with split stay for the belt option) commuter. After much research I have convinced myself to not go with the sliders - though the pics of the Potts with sliders is enough to make me drool. My concern with sliders are that the designs do not adequate address the torque. Anyway, I am anxious to hear how it went with Steve and what the choice was for the build. If you have pics, please share those too

  19. #19
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    Paragon sliders. No creaking, less fiddle-faddle. Also, if you are getting a custom frame built, realize that changing chainring/cog sizes with an EBB will change your riding position, esp you knee-over-pedal-spindle (KOPS). Adjusting sliders slightly changes the chainstay length, so there is a tradeoff, but I like sliders better.
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  20. #20
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    Ride & Smile

  21. #21
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    But how do the Paragon sliders hold up under the torque of the Rohloff? Overall, I would prefer sliders - but am concerned that a loaded bike (used for commuting) with Rohloff would put too much torque on the Paragon sliders. I want to believe that a Potts built ebb should be silent (even my cheap tandem ebb works flawlessly). I can live the ergonomic adjustments, a tweak here and there with the saddle/seat stem should cover the KOPS dimensions.

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Glad to oblige.

    This is my buddy Ben Witt's rig, he of Milltown Cycle out here in the Mid-West. He got the sliders on his, which is fine, I just prefer the cleaner look of an EBB.

    As you can see though, Steve Pott's work is awesome. Clean and simple, but stunning none the less. From what I hear from Ben, it rides even better.

    Cheers!
    Nice bike!

    Ben is a legend in wheel building here in MN.

    I can see a huge advantage to a EBB especially if you use a DOS ENO. I saw Martini change one a weekend or so ago with ease I think it took maybe a minute.
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