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  1. #1
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    North American Handmade Bicycle Show - PVD Pics


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    I'll take the bait!

    "Runner up was the internal hydraulic job on the Soulcraft. This was a funny bike. A real road bike with disks. Problem is a real road bike needs a suspension fork to run disks, which this bike lacked."

    ?????

  3. #3
    ali'i hua
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    great pics- some neat stuff- but why all the negative/derogatory comments?

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    funny...

    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    "Runner up was the internal hydraulic job on the Soulcraft. This was a funny bike. A real road bike with disks. Problem is a real road bike needs a suspension fork to run disks, which this bike lacked."

    ?????
    gotcha! My Salsa Las Cruces has a disk brake/carbon fork, and I treat it more like a road bike than its intended use. Same goes for my Rock Lobster adventurriffic 29er/commuter/SS/road/fun bike.

    Should I put suspension forks on them? did I miss the boat on discs, asphalt, and rigid forks?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowSSer
    great pics- some neat stuff- but why all the negative/derogatory comments?
    I was wondering that myself. That sort of posturbation seems really out of place here.

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    http://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?tit...e:IMG_8053.jpg

    Nice bikes, but what's going on here? Is that cable going to saw through the frame?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by quaffimodo
    I was wondering that myself. That sort of posturbation seems really out of place here.

    I guess you've missed PVD's earlier threads. He is the ultimate authority on everything. Do it his way, or do it the wrong way and let him belittle you. That's why there is a PVDwiki, we're just living in his world.
    I love mankind - it's people I can't stand. ~Charles M. Schulz

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastCoast
    http://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?tit...e:IMG_8053.jpg

    Nice bikes, but what's going on here? Is that cable going to saw through the frame?
    Internal housing probably.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by quaffimodo
    I was wondering that myself. That sort of posturbation seems really out of place here.
    It has been too long since I took Psych... so I can't remember if this behavior is rooted in his mother not hugging him enough or his dad kissing him on the lips through adolescence.

    bb

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    nice pics. can the attitude.
    looking for 20-21" P team

  11. #11
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    world

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch
    I guess you've missed PVD's earlier threads. He is the ultimate authority on everything. Do it his way, or do it the wrong way and let him belittle you. That's why there is a PVDwiki, we're just living in his world.
    I didn't know I was. So everything out there is wrong? Dammit!

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    wow now you are getting nasty

    Quote Originally Posted by b1umb0y
    It has been too long since I took Psych... so I can't remember if this behavior is rooted in his mother not hugging him enough or his dad kissing him on the lips through adolescence.

    bb
    amazing PVD just expressed a opinion on what he liked or did not like and gets flamed by a bunch of you (bb being the worst) just for expressing a opinion. So opinions are met with personal insults and hostility. It is just a opinion, the whole point of a review is to get a opinion and different reviewers give different opinions. If you don't agree with PVD that is fine but what is up with the personal attack.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by peitro
    amazing PVD just expressed a opinion on what he liked or did not like and gets flamed by a bunch of you (bb being the worst) just for expressing a opinion. So opinions are met with personal insults and hostility. It is just a opinion, the whole point of a review is to get a opinion and different reviewers give different opinions. If you don't agree with PVD that is fine but what is up with the personal attack.
    then why post a link to your pics if you know that some (well, many, clearly) people might have an issue with your personal comments about your pics? either remove the useless drivel about the pics or dont post them at all.

    i'd have to venture a guess that most of us are in awe of a truly handmade bicycle in this mass-prduced age and would never post a negative comment about something like a dropout eccentric or using portions of a frame as the hydraulic brake line (for example) being a stupid idea- they're both a rather novel way of re-thinking old issues.

    and you're defending "oggle some gay bikes" and "a real road bike needs a suspension fork to run disks" ?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by peitro
    amazing PVD just expressed a opinion on what he liked or did not like and gets flamed by a bunch of you (bb being the worst) just for expressing a opinion. So opinions are met with personal insults and hostility. It is just a opinion, the whole point of a review is to get a opinion and different reviewers give different opinions. If you don't agree with PVD that is fine but what is up with the personal attack.
    go read through his previous post's.
    looking for 20-21" P team

  15. #15
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    Just for expressing an opinion...

    Quote Originally Posted by peitro
    amazing PVD just expressed a opinion on what he liked or did not like and gets flamed by a bunch of you (bb being the worst) just for expressing a opinion. So opinions are met with personal insults and hostility. It is just a opinion, the whole point of a review is to get a opinion and different reviewers give different opinions. If you don't agree with PVD that is fine but what is up with the personal attack.
    For the record, he has since gone back and changed several of his comments. The one in which I was referring to had something to do with Paul brake levers and some reference to "cool if you are a homosexual" (his words were not so PC). While that may be an opinion, it isn't appropriate. I am glad to see that he has edited his remarks.

    Next time, be wary of the fact that the internet is a fluid medium and get the whole story before you tell me what an evil person I am (yes I am). FWIW, psychology isn't nasty.

    bb
    Last edited by b1umb0y; 03-06-2007 at 12:48 PM.

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    Geez, dude.

    People are just contributing their opinions. No need to bite their heads off!

  17. #17
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by peitro
    amazing PVD just expressed a opinion on what he liked or did not like and gets flamed by a bunch of you (bb being the worst) just for expressing a opinion. So opinions are met with personal insults and hostility. It is just a opinion, the whole point of a review is to get a opinion and different reviewers give different opinions. If you don't agree with PVD that is fine but what is up with the personal attack.
    Any chance you know pvd personally? You guys both live in the same area. Just curious, especially since it's your first post.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowSSer
    then why post a link to your pics if you know that some (well, many, clearly) people might have an issue with your personal comments about your pics? either remove the useless drivel about the pics or dont post them at all.

    i'd have to venture a guess that most of us are in awe of a truly handmade bicycle in this mass-prduced age and would never post a negative comment about something like a dropout eccentric or using portions of a frame as the hydraulic brake line (for example) being a stupid idea- they're both a rather novel way of re-thinking old issues.

    and you're defending "oggle some gay bikes" and "a real road bike needs a suspension fork to run disks" ?
    The suspension fork part I really don't get. Unless he is trying to say that there aren't many road forks available with disk tabs. At which point, he may want to check out some cyclecross forks

    I do hope, however, that people that have a concern or complaint about any of the frames shown on the show -sorry, it sounds bad- I hope people still voice their "negative" comments. Why? because from those comments potential issues of the design can come. If you think that something is a stupid idea, well say it, because, you know what? it may be!

    I'll step down from the soapbox now.

  19. #19
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    odd

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Any chance you know pvd personally? You guys both live in the same area. Just curious, especially since it's your first post.
    that is kinda odd.

    To me, its all art. Some is funcional, innovative, smart, and simple. Other stuff's just whacky, and that's what makes NAHBS so much cooler than Interschlong.
    But if NAHBS was in Vegas, in its own little area...nah, I don't think that would ever happen.

    I give credit to the NAHBS guys, and I am not saying this because I am the guy behind the website...I give them credit because they think outside of the box. Some are successful, some are legends, some are financially strapped, and while some have made a name for themselves, others are still trying to get noticed.

    I bet the big comanies go there undercover, just take snapshots of independent ideas, and later it gets applied to their big box brands because Jimmy the engineer only cares about lightweight crap and overpriced "our brand is so awesome" bikes.

    I'm for the little guy. As a matter of fact, I have not bought a big name brand in a while. For old schmoes like me (is 33 old?) that have been riding for a while, inventiveness and independent crafts are it.

  20. #20
    pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenK
    The suspension fork part I really don't get. Unless he is trying to say that there aren't many road forks available with disk tabs. At which point, he may want to check out some cyclecross forks.
    so many people have no idea how a road bike works. it's a simple system, but most of what is going on is not visible. study up a bit on how a bicycle works and you will find that you will have to agree with me.

  21. #21
    pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1umb0y
    For the record, he has since gone back and changed several of his comments. The one in which I was referring to had something to do with Paul brake levers and some reference to "cool if you are a homosexual" (his words were not so PC).
    That was my only edit. I have little respect for the fixed gear fashionista croud. I edited because the lever was really nice, the end user will be the absolute dolt.

  22. #22
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    ride?

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    so many people have no idea how a road bike works. it's a simple system, but most of what is going on is not visible. study up a bit on how a bicycle works and you will find that you will have to agree with me.
    huh?
    I've been riding my Salsa with discs on, and anyone who wishes to ride it, I am sure they get the idea.

    Cycling is a controlled fall, just like standing.

  23. #23
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    brake

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    That was my only edit. I have little respect for the fixed gear fashionista croud. I edited because the lever was really nice, the end user will be the absolute dolt.
    I also have a brake on both fixies I own...because I like my face and because where I ride we have too many steep hills to descend.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin

    Cycling is a controlled fall, just like standing.
    and flying is throwing yourself at the ground and missing

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    so many people have no idea how a road bike works. it's a simple system, but most of what is going on is not visible. study up a bit on how a bicycle works and you will find that you will have to agree with me.
    Please, please, please grace us with you vast knowledge of how this new-fangled thing called a road bike works. Oh yeah, and please tell me why I need a suspension fork if I want to put a disc on my road bike.

    Maybe if you just answered peoples questions instead of insulting them people would actually listen to you!

    Mark

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    so many people have no idea how a road bike works. it's a simple system, but most of what is going on is not visible. study up a bit on how a bicycle works and you will find that you will have to agree with me.
    Sorry, but I'm still not following you. Please elaborate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    That was my only edit. I have little respect for the fixed gear fashionista croud. I edited because the lever was really nice, the end user will be the absolute dolt.
    Where does all this hate come from?

    bb

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    i guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenK
    Sorry, but I'm still not following you. Please elaborate.
    I guess what he's trying to say is: um, like when you get on like, a road bike, you have to be like, all cool n' Oakley with your Mini Cooper roof rack and join a plethora of clicky friends that also ride like, expensive roadbikes...brah...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    I guess what he's trying to say is: um, like when you get on like, a road bike, you have to be like, all cool n' Oakley with your Mini Cooper roof rack and join a plethora of clicky friends that also ride like, expensive roadbikes...brah...
    Oh, like, Campy doesn't make, like, disc brakes? and, like, Lance didn't, like, use them?

    And, like, I'd still want him to answer the question? no trying to dodge, no insults just a simple answer: why do you need a suspension fork when you use disc brakes?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollister
    nice pics. can the attitude.
    nice pics, and the attitude wasn't as bad as I expected. I was at the show on Fri. and Sat. as well. It was my first time going and I couldn't get enough. Well, maybe by Saturday night I could.

    the internal brake line on the Soulcraft was pretty cool I thought. And that bike belongs to a guy at Formula brakes, so I'm sure he knows what he wants, and doesn't *need* a susp. fork.

    all of the racks and custom rack mounts built into the frames were amazing - loved it. What was kinda funny was seeing the pattern of builders displaying, not necessarily in this order:

    a fixie
    a townie/internal geared/fendered/racked bike
    a 29'er mtb, preferably SS

    if there was a 26" geared mountain bike in a booth I'd do a double take and think "who let THAT in here???"

    Personal Faves:

    Rock Lobster
    Piererra
    Moyer
    Ahearne

    off-hours was just as much fun. On Friday night the MutherFluxers played at my hotel bar. The band is comprised of Paul Sadoff (Rock Lobster) on guitar, Ross Shafer (Salsa) on vocals and guitar, Brian Baylis (Masi, etc) on drums and Dave Garoutte (DKG) on Bass. Rocking out to the tunes in the bar were Chris King, Craig Calfee, Wes Williams, Bruce Gordon, welders from Seven, etc. Way cool scene.

  31. #31
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    I understand.

    When a genius comes along that is truly ahead of his/her time, the world often views them as an cynical idiot....


    However, an idiot is rarely regarded as a genius simply because they are cynical.
    My ego is bigger and better looking than yours.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowSSer
    and flying is throwing yourself at the ground and missing
    Haw haw! Actually walking is controlled falling. Standing is just standing.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Haw haw! Actually walking is controlled falling. Standing is just standing.
    sorry- i was proving my nerdness with a hitchikers guide quote.

    and to add to the silliness, a Delta pilot i know made the comment that a landing is just a controlled crash.

  34. #34
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    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by PVD
    That was my only edit. I have little respect for the fixed gear fashionista croud. I edited because the lever was really nice, the end user will be the absolute dolt.
    OK, you got me to chime in..you win.

    1. Ever ridden a fixie for a while? If you have, you wouldn't say that. Yeah some are on the bandwagon, but there are those that actually benefit from riding a fixie. Most are not just shop folk, but actually professionals in their given fields, and work in S.F. and Oakland, which if I wanna read into your post, is where you're referring to? Now, what about a singlespeed?

    2. "..absolute dolt." Huh?? Seems that someone's trying to make something that although, may seem rare use, would be a benefit to some select individuals. Like, lemme see where this has been covered before, oh yeah, a "Customized", ooopppsss, "ala PVD" chainguide plate mount, modified ebb, bash gaurd, (hold it, those are for fags or something like that, right?)

    The thing about trying to be the wise man at the top of the mountain is, you actually look forward to the occasional visits to learn from you. What is being presented is counterintuitive. You disagree with even yourself?? Hmmm, instant accessibility of the internet factor or not, maybe think before typing away, or at least as we see it, have someone proof your written works and contributions.

    I really appreciate the time you take to make contributions, but as I said, I sometimes have to take 'em with a grain of salt. I don't see any continuity at all, except what everyone points out, the bashing.

    Remember the lines from the Bar scene in Good Will Hunting??

    But then again, what do I know?? I'll let my peers judge that.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood
    off-hours was just as much fun. On Friday night the MutherFluxers played at my hotel bar. The band is comprised of Paul Sadoff (Rock Lobster) on guitar, Ross Shafer (Salsa) on vocals and guitar, Brian Baylis (Masi, etc) on drums and Dave Garoutte (DKG) on Bass. Rocking out to the tunes in the bar were Chris King, Craig Calfee, Wes Williams, Bruce Gordon, welders from Seven, etc. Way cool scene.
    wish i woulda heard about that

    oh, i checked her ms page
    looking for 20-21" P team

  36. #36
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    .................. Way cool scene. [/QUOTE]

    You got that right! I thought I was dreaming throwing down FatTires with those masters of the trade. Portland next year will ROCK..........
    "Roll your own......." Smokebikes.com

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    so many people have no idea how a road bike works. it's a simple system, but most of what is going on is not visible. study up a bit on how a bicycle works and you will find that you will have to agree with me.

    You have absolutly no control over yourself, do you?!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    That was my only edit. I have little respect for the fixed gear fashionista croud. I edited because the lever was really nice, the end user will be the absolute dolt.
    Crap, I guess I have some soul searching to do.
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    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood
    if there was a 26" geared mountain bike in a booth I'd do a double take and think "who let THAT in here???"
    Oh sh!t, here we go. I've got a 2003 Dean w/26" and gears for sale over on the Vintage Retro board. Wait for it, wait for it....
    Tuff Schist

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    nice to have you back, Peter

  41. #41
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    still no answer eh?
    looking for 20-21" P team

  42. #42
    pvd
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollister
    still no answer eh?
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    thats what i thought


    teaching is your day job, yes?
    looking for 20-21" P team

  44. #44
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    Oh please....

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    Life would be so much easier if everyone would just hurry up and realize that I am always right about everything!
    My ego is bigger and better looking than yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    Pot, meet kettle?

    What I found interesting, is your caption for the bike from Vicious Cycles, a rigid 29er w/ disc: "The King of rigid forks."

    Why not an obtuse opinion on that? Can't wait to read your doctoral dissertation on why a disc equipped rigid mtn bike fork is fine, but unacceptable for use on the road.

    And this post of yours that I've quoted....just reeks of you being an arrogant a$$.
    All hale the ginormous intellect that is PVD and his wiki.

  46. #46
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    I think you are bluffing. Or maybe making some flat-footed allusion to motorcycles.

    I noticed the handy <a href="http://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=Handmade_Bicycle_Show_2007&diff=41 35&oldid=4134" target="blank">history</a> feature on your little wiki site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pudgerboy
    nice to have you back, Peter
    Peter? Who's Peter?
    Tuff Schist

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    so if I ride my Salsa with disc brakes (its just a mud friendly road bike in a sense), there's still something wrong the manufacturer did? and they didn't tell me?

    If I put discs on a rigid Karate Monkey...and god forbid, a road bar....will I just won't be able to pedal it?

    this is stupid.

  49. #49
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    ... and if we just ... amen

    Quote Originally Posted by tomimcmillar
    All hale the ginormous intellect that is PVD and his wiki.
    aaaaaaaaaamen

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    That's the whole point: people think that your statement is completely baseless. And I say that your statement is completely baseless based on the fact that people successfully use a front disk brake on a road bike without a suspension fork.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenK
    And I say that your statement is completely baseless based on the fact that people successfully use a front disk brake on a road bike without a suspension fork.
    success? road bike? a real road bike? that soulcraft is one of the very few that i have seen, and i would dare not ride more than 20 miles on the thing. It would take me a few days to recover.

    some people are using the term "road bike" very loosly.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view.
    Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    I think I can explain why you have that view. Now if you can tell me why I think you have that view, then I'll tell you why you think a road bike needs a suspension fork to run a disc brake.

  53. #53
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    That logic course came in handy...

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?
    You haven't made any points, nor any argument. You made a claim. In the absence of other people arguing in favour of your claim, you conclude that they are unwilling or unable to do so, a logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    Ad hominem.
    Unsupported assertions:
    'knowledge of the motivations or reasons for your claim compels agreement with that claim'
    'the absence of agreement with your claim is evidence that people are not smart enough to state why you make that claim'

    Funny how you chastise others for not employing reason when you cannot employ it properly yourself.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    ...i would dare not ride more than 20 miles on the thing. It would take me a few days to recover.
    Please try not to blame everyone else - MTBR members, manufacturers, etc. - for your seemingly poor ability, or rather inability, to ride a bike for more than 20 miles.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    success? road bike? a real road bike? that soulcraft is one of the very few that i have seen, and i would dare not ride more than 20 miles on the thing. It would take me a few days to recover.

    some people are using the term "road bike" very loosly.
    Ok... then define a "road bike" because, to me, a Salsa Las Cruces seems to qualify. And people here have already told you that they successfully ride them with a disk brake mounted on a rigid fork.

  56. #56
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    I'm all ears

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    so many people have no idea how a road bike works. it's a simple system, but most of what is going on is not visible. study up a bit on how a bicycle works and you will find that you will have to agree with me.
    I have studdied how a bicycle works (from a basic physics point of view up) and have a pretty reasonable science / engineering background so I am really interested in how a suspension fork might be essential for use on a disc brake equipped road bike (and I am discounting mundane things like disc tabs etc...)

    I can only guess it is something to do with the front wheel maintaining contact with the road despite uneaven surface conditions thanks to the inherant "sag" of a correctly set-up suspension fork....but I could be wrong.

    "" (waits for reply)

    Alex
    "Put any one on one of these singlespeed bikes and they could not help but have fun"
    -
    Otis Guy talking about klunkers c1976

  57. #57
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    shot in the dark...

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    success? road bike? a real road bike? that soulcraft is one of the very few that i have seen, and i would dare not ride more than 20 miles on the thing. It would take me a few days to recover.

    some people are using the term "road bike" very loosly.
    then you're a weight weenie. Disc brake sets are heavy as compared to road brakes. Is this it?

    Enlighten us, please. I ride my Salsa pseudo roadie bike a lot. My preference for stopping? Discs. Why? personal preference. I am not going to suggest or tell anyone else that they're better then anything else out there. I like them and that's what I ride.

    My new Land Shark is a cross bike/roadie...canti only. Which is better? which one will out maneuver?

    I still don't know what I am doing wrong...and I do ride my Salsa with discs more than 20 miles on a given day. I commute on it for crying out loud...34 miles of love on the road...with discs. Of love...
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenK
    a Salsa Las Cruces seems to qualify...
    that is not a road bike.

  59. #59
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    are you sure?

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    that is not a road bike.
    define a road bike.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    that is not a road bike.
    DEFINE a road bike, then. Or, easier, define why the Salsa Las Cruces does not qualify as one.

  61. #61
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    What is this, the Matrix? "There is no spoon."

    What a loon.

  62. #62
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    probably...

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenK
    DEFINE a road bike, then. Or, easier, define why the Salsa Las Cruces does not qualify as one.
    he's probably going to say: because its like, orange? and its got clearance for 700x38 tires? and bla bla, like bla, because it's not ti, and it doesn't have carbon stays, like, it doesn't fit the color of my mini cooper? and this this and that, brah...

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    he's probably going to say: because its like, orange? and its got clearance for 700x38 tires? and bla bla, like bla, because it's not ti, and it doesn't have carbon stays, like, it doesn't fit the color of my mini cooper? and this this and that, brah...
    My guess is he will go on the geometry, the head tube angle is less than (insert favorite number here) and any bike that has a head tube angle slacker/steeper than (insert favorite number here) doesn't qualify as a road bike.

    So, again pvd, define a "road bike" and tell us why would you need to run a suspension fork to use a front disk brake on it.

  64. #64
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    triathlon...

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenK
    My guess is he will go on the geometry, the head tube angle is less than (insert favorite number here) and any bike that has a head tube angle slacker/steeper than (insert favorite number here) doesn't qualify as a road bike.

    So, again pvd, define a "road bike" and tell us why would you need to run a suspension fork to use a front disk brake on it.
    I'm with you...is a triathlon specific bike then, a road bike?
    What about a touring bike? is that not a road bike?

  65. #65
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    Fellas, you all give him a bit too much credit to actually come up with a sound reason to run a suspension fork on a road bike. I guaraneffintee you that the reason he'll give is something as asinine as:

    "Well, disc brakes have no place on a road bike, they're a mountain bike thing, and all mountain bike MUST be equipped with a suspension fork - these are my rules, I make them up this crap - ergo, if you insist on running a disc brake on a road bike, then you must mount that brake onto a suspension fork."

    It's that sort of moronic circular logic that's driven pvd to the heights of mental masturbation that he's clearly so proud of. There's no argument here grounded in physics or any actual proper science.

  66. #66
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    you guys don't know the difference between a road bike and a cross bike? obviously, any point that i was making about disk brakes and road bikes is missed by all of you, except Alex-SSP who actually tried to reason things through.

    i'm impressed by how little you folks know about bikes. good work.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    you guys don't know the difference between a road bike and a cross bike? obviously, any point that i was making about disk brakes and road bikes is missed by all of you, except Alex-SSP who actually tried to reason things through.

    i'm impressed by how little you folks know about bikes. good work.
    Define a road bike, then and explain why would you need a suspension fork to use disc brakes.

  68. #68
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    foo'

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    you guys don't know the difference between a road bike and a cross bike? obviously, any point that i was making about disk brakes and road bikes is missed by all of you, except Alex-SSP who actually tried to reason things through.

    i'm impressed by how little you folks know about bikes. good work.
    I've seen "road bikes" with discs from indy Fab. yes, a road bike with discs. Not space for anything bigger than a 700x28. They have an option for either disc, or road brakes.

    Would discs handle any different? perhaps. Maybe not. Depends who you asking.
    What if I ride a road bike, like an old school Paramount with old Sugino parts. Let's say, I decided to put a Softide stem on it. And I also had Waterford Bikes slap (as in welded) on new canti brake bosses...no wait, disc brake bosses, with a bit of reinforcement. Frame geometry is still the same, the only difference is that it now has disc brakes...

    Is it not a road bike?

    What if I called my Surly steamroller a fixcross...and I had Erik from Peacock Groove weld some disc tabs...and...you're useless to this board.

  69. #69
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    ok, i'll bite.

    a road fork is built to flex, that is the reasoning behind the bend and material choice. the possible argument being the bending would mess up the disc alignment. causing possible slowing... maybe binding if you REALLY try.

    I don't see it being a factor though, since the caliper is mounted so close to the dropout.

  70. #70
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    so like, the flex is above the dropout and caliper mount... get it? all other arguments are gay.

    you're gay, i'm gay, this site is gay, we're all gay for being here....

    go ride you posers.......

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    any point that i was making about disk brakes and road bikes is missed by all of you
    You never made any point. I re-read the thread and your wiki page you linked to in the first post. The only claims I could find about road bikes and disk brakes are as follows:

    "a real road bike needs a suspension fork to run disks"
    "[a road bike is] a simple system, but most of what is going on is not visible"
    "a Salsa Las Cruces is not a road bike"

    That's it. And you turn around and blame people for missing your point. I am not surprised people attack you personally.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastCoast
    https://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?ti...e:IMG_8053.jpg

    Nice bikes, but what's going on here? Is that cable going to saw through the frame?

    That is the Vanilla Cycles Project Speedvagen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacha White
    ďWith this bike, I got rid of everything thatís not necessary. Thereís an integrated seatpost, no cable stops, and no cantilever bosses (which make the brakes lighter and stiffer). Iím also selecting custom tubesets for each one. We worked directly with our tubing manufacturers to deliver a proprietary ĎVanilla SSL tubesetí.

    The geometry has been dialed in over time from my own preferences and from team input.

    With this bike, Iíve put in all the design and thought on the front end (of the process). Itís less about one-off details and hours of me whittling down a lug than my other bikes, and more about just making a badass tool for racing.

    The Speedvagen is a way to stay connected with a scene (cyclocross) that is near and dear to my heart.Ē








    More on Vanilla Cycles and the NAHBS at BikePortland
    aLaN AT BikeMojo DOT com

  73. #73
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    Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by ofg3216
    ok, i'll bite.

    a road fork is built to flex, that is the reasoning behind the bend and material choice. the possible argument being the bending would mess up the disc alignment. causing possible slowing... maybe binding if you REALLY try.

    I don't see it being a factor though, since the caliper is mounted so close to the dropout.
    the argument would be that the disc brake forces, which are only on one leg, force the flexible road fork to bend sideways. So you'd need a stiffer fork that wouldn't be quite as comfortable.
    There is some truth behind that, which is one of the reasons why they put a smaller, doublesided disc on this experimental roadbike:
    http://www.canyon.com/_en/technology...e3q3eagkseabk7

    however, a disc equipped crossbike with 23mm 110psi street tires is a roadbike, and there are quite a few people who ride them like that. according to pvds theory, this would be impossible because the fork has to be so hard that you die or something. not true. first of all, a big part of the fork flex happens in the steerer tube, not in the fork legs. second, fork flex is overrated. reduce your tire pressure by 10psi and you have 5 times the effect. or install different bars. or stem. or even bartape. the canyon bike was a weightweenie project and they must have figured that 2 140mm discs and a lighter fork and hub were better than one 160-180mm disc with a stiffer fork + hub. By no means would this "require" a suspension fork...

    i get the feeling that this "roadbike must have sus fork" statement was made hoping that noone would get it.

    like, "thomson stems are completely USELESS for serious road training!!!"

    (don't you people get it? it's totally obvious: the X4 only come in 31.8 clamp diameter, that way you have to run a oversized bar, that way your HRM won't fit that easily on the handlebar, and training without HRM is useless!)
    wanted: Cannondale Lefty w/ V-brake studs

  74. #74
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    Disc's, RoadBike...






    The End!
    PROFESSIONAL THREAD KILLER!



    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    Maybe I will just start hanging out in the "Recycle Bin" forum.

  75. #75
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    Whoa, is that yours??? More pics of rics irish road bike please!

  76. #76
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    Disc brakes on road forks..

    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    The answer is simple. With disc brakes you can run 700c, 650b or 26" mountain wheels on the same bike, given the right tire choice. We just built a bike for a woman in Boston that will accept the following combination of wheels/tires...

    700c (or 29er)
    26" mountain
    96er (26" rear- 700c front)
    650 B

    Pretty hard to do that with rim brakes...


    Best,

    Davis Carver
    www.carverbikes.com

  77. #77
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    rics irish roadster

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Whoa, is that yours??? More pics of rics irish road bike please!
    Mine? Negative!

    http://www.philwood.com/pspecialprojects.htm
    PROFESSIONAL THREAD KILLER!



    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    Maybe I will just start hanging out in the "Recycle Bin" forum.

  78. #78
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    this is a road bike. You cant get closer to 'road' than this. Do i win a prize? oh, and I'm brilliant with god-like bike skills, and you're stupid. I'll tell you why.

    No i wont you minxes, as i stand behind my large inflatable penis in a playful yet coquettish manner.

    Yes you. not you. next to you. yes. S-T-O-O-P-I-D stoopid. what were we talking about again? TAXI!!!
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  79. #79
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    Waste of time.

    This thread is a waste of electrons. (how many posts to this tread have anything at all to do with single speeds?)

    There has been practically zero useful information presented here. I think from now on I will simply choose to not view anything presented by this OP. I urge others that feel this way to act similarly.

    I apologize for participating in this uselessness.
    My ego is bigger and better looking than yours.

  80. #80
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    still no answer.
    looking for 20-21" P team

  81. #81
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    Levi's bike

    Land Shark for Levi. The Levi.

    link

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    Land Shark for Levi. The Levi.

    link
    Somebody call Levi quick! Tell him he's gonna die if he rides that thing!

  83. #83
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    fenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Somebody call Levi quick! Tell him he's gonna die if he rides that thing!
    and it comes with eyelets for fenders! and it can be ENO'd! (there, SS content)

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Why? Nobody here is willing or able to even speculate as to why a road bike would need to have a suspension fork to run a front disk brake. I know. It's pretty simple, but why would i just give the answer when instead of any well reasoned arguments to my points, all i see are personal attacks?

    I really don't think that anyone here is smart enough to even state why I would have this view. Why? Because if you knew why someone would say such a thing, you would be compelled to agree, and i see little agreement.
    I know why I have little interest in discs on road bikes.
    I know why Co-Motion does not use front disc brakes on their road tandems.
    These may or may not be part or all of your reasons and I refuse to speculate what they may be.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  85. #85
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    That Vanilla is gorgeous. As most Vanillas are...
    "Whereas Motoman's bike looks like an industrial, TinkerToy experiment gone horribly wrong." - Aquaholic

    Ti
    Misfit

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat
    Internal housing probably.
    cycling news confirms there is a guide tube in the frame: http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007...brake_routing2

    Drilling the seatpost for the rear brake cable was an old 'cross trick: light, low friction but you lost your brake if the post slipped down.
    mtbtires.com
    The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common

  87. #87
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by unit
    This thread is a waste of electrons. (how many posts to this tread have anything at all to do with single speeds?)

    There has been practically zero useful information presented here. I think from now on I will simply choose to not view anything presented by this OP. I urge others that feel this way to act similarly.

    I apologize for participating in this uselessness.
    No apologies needed!! Reading PVD's posts is akin to telling your new dog,

    "Good Puppy...here's a treat!"-right before it takes a sh!t on your dining room rug.
    Just Spinning Along.

  88. #88
    34N 118W
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    egads!

    builders don't know!
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  89. #89
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    check out the Phil Wood website...... for more pics.

  90. #90
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    ohmy. I do SO love these pvd trainwrecks! Makes the day at work interesting, if not even funny.

    What I would like to know, is just HOW did this pvd character get so dang smart?
    Just a regular guy.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    ohmy. I do SO love these pvd trainwrecks! Makes the day at work interesting, if not even funny.

    What I would like to know, is just HOW did this pvd character get so dang smart?
    He drank the Kool-Aid serum or smartypantyness

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