My Monocog is a PIG!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    ... and if we just ... My Monocog is a PIG!

    Ok, something is wrong here, my Redline Monocog SS hardtail weighs as much as my full suspension geared bike. Granted I havent had them both on the same scale but side by side they are damn close.

    Wondering if it is worth it to put some money into it and try and make it a little more svelte. I think the main culprit is the heavy ass stock wheelset on it. Doesnt help that I have Conti Verticals or something similar on it. Also have a Marzocchi MX Comp that is anything but light. Seriously this bike is by far the best $400 I have spent but it is in need of a serious diet.

    Any suggestions on less expensive lighter wheelsets that arent going to explode under my 200 lb ass? Should I not even worry about it do to the weight of the frame and every other cheap component that is on it?

  2. #2
    i also unicycle
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    i bet it's not that bad. sure it's kinda heavy, but no worse than a surly or similar steel build. wheel would make a big improvement though.
    mtbr says you should know: i work in a bike shop.
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  3. #3
    Obi
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    Idea!

    Monocog=SS and Steel...

    Fully=Gears, and most likely Alu.

    Wheelset suggestions...

    King Hubset, DT 14/15 spokes, Mavic or SUn Rims.

    My ride, with the Maxxis Minions/DH tubes on it right now weighs ~29lbs.
    *Switch over to something more X/C oriented and it'll drop around 4-5lbs.

    A careful speccing will drop the weight pretty quickly, and yeah, a good sus fork'll weigh pretty close, sometimes even less than the factory rigid fork.

    WHY?? Lemme see, O/E Surly 1x1 fork vs. '07 Talas.

    Check out the Save Some Weight forum, plenty of sugg's and tricks there!

  4. #4
    @adelorenzo
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    Time to bust out the drill...

  5. #5
    ravingbikefiend
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    She's no pig...

    I weighed my vintage Kuwahara Cascade the other day...she's a vintage expedition bike with a quad butted steel frame, a spoke holder on the chain stay, and braze ons for everything from full fenders, front and rear racks, and a frame pump.

    Running as an SS in winter drag with a; front fender, rear rack/fender, studded front tire, lights, sprung saddle, and a frame bag with tools she weighed 32.10 pounds.

    Feel better ?

    After the weigh in I added a few more gears (she's now a 1 by 3) but figure that her stripped down summer weight will actually be quite decent and I canna wait to do the next weigh in..
    I ride with 65'er...he's a mountain goat....But then again, we need to throw him in the mud and pack his pockets with lead shot before a scale will read him. - Psycho Mike

    -Environmental stickers don't mean shite when they are stuck to CARS!-

  6. #6
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    Mine weighs under 27 pounds, which is still kinda heavy, I guess, but I don't notice it.

    Fact is, if I had wanted a light bike I wouldn't have bought a $450 steel 29er.
    “The only Zen you find on tops of mountains is the Zen you bring there”---Robert M. Pirsig

  7. #7
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    wheels and tires will make the most noticeable difference- depending on what type of terrain you ride you can choose from a bunch of different wheel options. I run Paul hubs which are nicely-light but not too light, and 717 rims. That combined with Maxxis ADVantage tires and my 205lb butt seems to do well in the rocky hills of PA. If I switch to 2.3 Kendas, my bike swells up an extra 1.5 lbs....but the added cush is nice. Also, I run a RS Reba on mine, plenty stiff, 3.5lbs, and not expensive. 23lbs on the shop scale and plenty durable I could probably get it down to low 22's with lighter cranks, pedals, etc and still maintain good reliability if I wanted, but for now its great.

  8. #8
    donkey
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    Heres what i did to make my 26" monocog lighter, but just as practical:
    Surly Front hub, salsa delgado rim, 2.5" weirwolf
    Paul rear hub, "", 2.3 vertical, white FW
    Thomson laidback post
    original stem and bars, original fork
    evolve xc ss cranks
    pink ck headset
    crank bros candy pedals
    ball bearing 7s, flak jacket housing, speed dial SL levers
    bontrager big earl saddle, lock on grips

    I found that the heaviest thing i took of the bike were the beastly cranks. The crank/bb combo was far, far heavier than any crankset i've ever hefted.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the info especially the comment on the cranks. I think that will be next to go.

    For now I replaced the Conti Gravity's with some 2.1 IRC Mibros. I think the fork is really a pig also but it will have to work.

    I might have to go super cheap on the wheels and get the XT hubs with Rhyno Lite XL's for $150. Can't justify spending more money than that now. Not even sure if it is worth it. Have to look at the weight of both sets of wheels first.

    Aside from that going to put on some new grips and call it done. The stock ones suck.

  10. #10
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    Man go ride a Huffy or equivalent department store weapon. Nothing will seem heavy after that.
    Alternatively buy a downhill bike. That works too!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by obionespeedonly

    Wheelset suggestions...

    King Hubset, DT 14/15 spokes, Mavic or SUn Rims.
    Spend as much on the rear hub alone as he did for the whole bike (and not even a spectacularly light rear hub at that)?

  12. #12
    donkey
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    yeah, i was worried about the cost of my components in relation the cost and quality of my frame but i decided it was worth it cause i love the monocog geometry. I'll ride it till it breaks and then buy something with sliding drops.

  13. #13
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    they may be called rhyno "lite" but that doesn't mean they ARE light...

    if you get singlespeed hubs you should be able to run most any XC rims. i am 230 and can run 32 spoke wheels on my 29er without any problems. how they are built is the important thing!

    i say save up for a nice handbuilt wheelset. tell the guy who's building them you want them as light as your riding style and budget will allow....

  14. #14
    donkey
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    rhyno lites aren't anywhere close to 'lite.' The cross section of the rim was taken from a bmx design. they're intended as budget all mountain and agressive use rims. i've seen them on a lot of dirt jump and street bikes.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbrennan
    rhyno lites aren't anywhere close to 'lite.' The cross section of the rim was taken from a bmx design. they're intended as budget all mountain and agressive use rims. i've seen them on a lot of dirt jump and street bikes.
    ~ 550 grams -- not ridiculously heavy for XC, IMO. There is something to be said for the reliability of a sturdier rim.

  16. #16
    meh... whatever
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterBreath
    Spend as much on the rear hub alone as he did for the whole bike (and not even a spectacularly light rear hub at that)?
    ABSOLUTELY!

    a king wheelset will last forever and can be moved from bike to bike as frame upgrades are made. and come on... its not like the king is a pig. its 355g vs. 244 for the american classic, 262 for the wtb single duty, 245 for the hope, 243 for the dt swiss; and for the freewheel hubs 362 for the surly, 280 for the paul, and 392 for the phil.

    of all these the king has by far the best, most positive, and quickest engagement (72 points, compared to about 24 for most others) and its virtually indestructable. plus when you throw an eno on ether the paul, surly, or phil you add another 157g to it. this makes a phil w/eno a porky 555g (200g or 1/2 lb. heavier than the king), the paul 437g, and the surly 525. when you look at it that way the king really isnt that heavy after all.

    the hadley feels almost identical to the king with 72 points of engagement. its about 100 clams less but is 100g more. doesnt come in cool colors or reek of king bling either.

    riding a king rear ss hub is kind of like single speeding... you just dont get it until you try one.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  17. #17
    donkey
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    just get a paul hub and a white industries freewheel. It'll last forever too, and save you several hundred dollars.

  18. #18
    meh... whatever
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbrennan
    just get a paul hub and a white industries freewheel. It'll last forever too, and save you several hundred dollars.
    indeed... as long as you rarely, if ever, change gearing. then using enos gets expensive.
    enos also have HALF the engagement points of a king.
    its not like the paul/eno setup isnt good, i run a paul wheelset/eno freewheel on one of my bikes. if money is first priority then its a great choice.
    its like i said... until you ride one you just dont understand.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  19. #19
    donkey
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    I have ridden several. I'd recommend playing with your gear ratio while still using the stock monocog cassette hub before investing in an eno. Kings are great, although I find the drag somewhat off-putting. You can't argue with king's environmental preservation policies, they are an all around unimpeachable company - its just a shame their products aren't more accessible. Paul components are, on the other hand, pretty easy to come by. They are available from QBP and can be rebuilt with readily available components and tools. I'm on a college kid budget, so those kinds of things are extremely important to me (and I'd think that they are important to most people who opt for a monocog over an IF or another steel single speed). Its notable that the Paul WORD disk uses sealed bearings (no problems thus far), and Surly uses cup and cone (my personal favorite). I think surly hubs and the wide-ish salsa delgados would make a great wheelset for a single speed bike, while giving your 2.1" tires a slightly larger foot print. With suspension, huge tires aren't a must, but they do compliment a single speed well. Being that singlespeeds do have practical speed limitations, i'd say go with something sensible for your ridng style, terrain, and economic means. The QBP wheelhouse builds surly ss hubs on salsa rims, so you can order them complete. More expensive than rhyno lites, and a little nicer lookin'. You might be able to make the XT/rhyno lite combo work with some axle tugs, but nothing beats a solid axle or the hex bolts on king/paul/phil hubs. Long story short, your bike is worth the money. Good luck, you've got the info now get down to making your bike your own!

  20. #20
    meh... whatever
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    king drag a tad before theyre broken in, then theyre buttah. schmoooooooooove.......

    the wheelset on my niner one9 is king/stans ztr355/revolution 14/15 spokes and its about the same weight as the ac wheelset but three times as strong. makes for a sub 20lb 29er!

    the surly/salsa/eno combo is very nice, its what i run on my karate monkey. bombproof. i huck my monkey, jump it, downhill it, etc. and even though i cracked the drive side chainstay the wheelset hasnt even needed to be trued in over a YEAR! (in the last year its been raced, done the ouachia challenge, been to moab, lots of womble)

    i also run surly/salsa with ghetto fixie mod on my tiki (fixed off road 29er) and havent been able to tear that up yet either.

    for that matter havent torn up the surly hubs on my 1x1 either. rock solid hub.

    oh btw, the surly hubs use sealed cartridge bearings.

    paul hubs are nice too. i have a paul/mavic517/eno wheelset on my scandium kula and other than replacing the bearings once have had zero issues with them either. they now use 90% fill bearings so you wont have the problem i did (bearing cage came apart on one of them). i replaced all with 90% fill enduros and zero probs.

    phil hubs are great. a little heavy, but i ran one on the rear of my 26" steel monocog and despite my best attempts havent been able to destroy it. well, actually i did wreck it, but that was due to not putting enough loctite on the ghetto fixie mod when i moved it over to my monocog flight to ride fixed mountain. spun the threads slowing down whilst going down some gnarly descent (no brakes).

    the wtb single duty hub is also a great hub, i run those on my voodoo aizan. well, i did before i broke the voodoo completely in half anyway.

    so any of the these would be great hubs to base a wheelset on. however, if money is the main issue, and youre looking for a complete wheelset, go for the ac. about 450 for the built set, and it will lighten up your bike considerably while standing up to a moderate amount of abuse if cared for properly and youre not a clyde.

    if you can only do a rear wheel on a budget i agree with nbrennan on the paul/eno setup. but its about 300 built (plus eno) and for another hundred you can have the ac. so i'd just save your pennies a little longer and you can have a very, very nice & light complete wheelset for the price of a king ss hub.

    and nbrennan, you said youd ride your 'cog til it broke? well youre gonna have to beat the ever living hell outta that thing before it will break. both of my 26" monocogs (steel and flight) have been, well... lets say BEYOND abused and are still going strong. the steelie is about to be resurrected once again in the form of a dirt jumper this time. one of the good things about the 'cogs is their durability. the liability of the weight brings with it an asset of strength.
    Last edited by monogod; 03-15-2007 at 11:23 PM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  21. #21
    meh... whatever
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    i see we got somewhat off topic, which was how to make your cog lighter...

    ac wheelset would be the place to start.

    some other things you can do to lighten up your bike other than going to an ac wheelset and lighter tires would be to go to a lighter fork (reynolds steel, carbon, ti), carbon bars, carbon seatpost, lighter saddle, lighter cranks & bb, lighter brakes, etc.

    the biggest place youll lose weight is wheelset/tires and the fork. the bb on the cog is quite weighty too.

    the beauty of it is you can do it piece by piece and shave off 100g here, 200g there, 50g in another spot and before you know it youve dropped several pounds. remember though, that your foundation is a rather heavy frame and fork, but you can still drop a good deal of weight, and you will tell a difference. every 113g is about 1/4 lb. (454g = 1lb.) so it does add up quick. the cog is a great riding frame though, and worth building up.

    by careful parts selection you can dump a ton of weight off a bike. the latest addition to my stable is a niner bikes one9. starting with a lightweight frame and picking each part i was able to put together a sub 20lb 29er ss WITH disc brakes!

    the good thing about upgrading components is you will have them if you ever decide to upgrade your frame. then move your bling stuff to the new frame and return the cog to stock and you have a beater bike/commuter/guest bike/spare bike/mud bike/etc. i still have the very first ss i ever bought (a 26" cog) and though the years have not been kind to it cosmetically (it looks like its been drug behind my truck by a chain) its still solid and sturdy and i can let people ride it without caring if they dump it!

    good luck with it and have fun making it your own, thats half the fun of mtbing.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  22. #22
    Am I getting too bulky?
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    When I want to make my Cog lighter, I just knock off some of the mud that's been caked on for the last year or so.
    I gotta roll, can't stand still, got a flame in my heart, can't get my fill.

  23. #23
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    My 04 Mono-cog weighs 28 with a sus fork on it I'm wondering what yours weighs.
    "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
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  24. #24
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    Hope trial SS hub for the rear. comes in a nice gold colour, too. I don't think you will notice anything above 48 engagement points while riding. the hope is sturdy and sounds great...

    get yourself some Ambrosio rims if you want quality without spending loads of cash. the quorum s.s.c. is a very good rim with 480gr - double eyelets.

  25. #25
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    Meh. For the money you save on a hub that is already lighter, you could buy lighter spokes, rims, tires etc. and end up with a wheel that is much lighter overall, and lighter where it actually counts at that -- away from the hub. I'd sooner go with the Paul/ENO set-up and spend the money saved on rims that might save 100g or more per wheel, more than compensating for the extra 50g at the hub.

    Plus, is the fact that you have to drag the extra King weight around from bike to bike for the rest of your life a good thing?

  26. #26
    Retro Grouch
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    My lightening project

    Quote Originally Posted by gtdrew
    Ok, something is wrong here, my Redline Monocog SS hardtail weighs as much as my full suspension geared bike. Granted I havent had them both on the same scale but side by side they are damn close.

    Wondering if it is worth it to put some money into it and try and make it a little more svelte. I think the main culprit is the heavy ass stock wheelset on it. Doesnt help that I have Conti Verticals or something similar on it. Also have a Marzocchi MX Comp that is anything but light. Seriously this bike is by far the best $400 I have spent but it is in need of a serious diet.

    Any suggestions on less expensive lighter wheelsets that arent going to explode under my 200 lb ass? Should I not even worry about it do to the weight of the frame and every other cheap component that is on it?
    I spent some time and money lightening my Bonty project; ended up loosing 2 lbs.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...ighlight=bonty

    Tires and tubes are the best bang for the buck..

    1G1G, Brad
    Just one more rep and I get the toaster!

  27. #27
    meh... whatever
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterBreath
    Plus, is the fact that you have to drag the extra King weight around from bike to bike for the rest of your life a good thing?
    king hub w/aluminum cog = 350g
    paul disc hub w/white bro eno = 437g (87g - 1/5 lb. heavier than the king)
    paul non-disc w/white bro eno = 377g (27g - 1/16 lb. heavier than the king)

    now i dont know how they teach math where you live , but the way i learned math you told what was heavier by which number was bigger after weighing something. so i must confess im baffled as to just how you deduced the king is heavier than the paul/eno setup.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  28. #28
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    Weight wise, I was still thinking about the "entire wheel you could build for the same money" scenario I layed out.

    Stricly speaking, the CK hub/cog is lighter than the Paul/Eno. I'll grant you that, Mr. Sarcasm. But from a value perspective the latter will allow you to build a much lighter wheel for the same money. Now, if you want to say that "value" is not a primary reason to buy CK, I agree (that was my original point). They look cool, last a long time, work well, blah blah. I never disputed any of that. I simply said that they were expensive and not spectacluarly light (which they still aren't). Plus they seem to make people defensive about their overpriced wheels

    king hub w/aluminum cog = 350g
    DT Swiss 240s SS w/Endless or Boone Cog = ~310g (and $30-60 cheaper).

  29. #29
    meh... whatever
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    chill man... relax... youre being very "un-dude"

    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterBreath
    Weight wise, I was still thinking about the "entire wheel you could build for the same money" scenario I layed out.
    so if you use the same spokes, same rim, same tubes, and same tires the king will STILL be a lighter wheelset than the paul/eno.

    however, as i pointed out AND recommended to lighten his cog, the american classic wheelset is about $100 more than building a paul/eno rear wheel and is MUCH lighter. then you shave substantial weight off the front AND the back.

    Stricly speaking, the CK hub/cog is lighter than the Paul/Eno. I'll grant you that, Mr. Sarcasm.

    so then where does "drag all that extra weight around" come in???

    strictly speaking, the ck hub/cog will build a lighter wheel than the paul/eno.

    But from a value perspective the latter will allow you to build a much lighter wheel for the same money.

    impossible to build a lighter wheel with the paul/eno using the exact same components other than hubs. cheaper? yes. but lighter? no.

    Now, if you want to say that "value" is not a primary reason to buy CK, I agree (that was my original point). They look cool, last a long time, work well, blah blah. I never disputed any of that. I simply said that they were expensive and not spectacluarly light (which they still aren't).

    my king/ztr355 29er wheelset is within a few grams of the american classic 29er wheelset (generally considered the lightest 29er wheelset), but is easily three times stronger and will last far longer.

    value is also more than initial monitary outlay. its longevity, reliability, form, and function. on each of the points the king is superior.

    "money cant buy happiness... but it can buy some damn nice stuff to be miserable with!"

    Plus they seem to make people defensive about their overpriced wheels

    so pointing out fuzzy math makes someone defensive about liking nice toys???? hmmmmmm

    maybe youre just defensive cuz you dont have any!

    king hub w/aluminum cog = 350g
    DT Swiss 240s SS w/Endless or Boone Cog = ~310g (and $30-60 cheaper).

    king hub has 3 times the engagement points and 10 times the bling. to some, that is worth $30-60 and 40g. funny how something *almost* as expensive as the king isnt overspriced.

    dont take it so personally dude, it wasnt a personal flame. just pointing out the FACT that the paul/eno setup isnt lighter than the king. and "overpriced" is realitive anyway. good things cost money. all things considered the king is the best hub out there. 72 engagement points, smooth action, light weight (within 60 grams of the lightest ss hub), gorilla strength (the dt or ac wont hold up to nearly the abuse the king will), 5 year warranty, and to top it all off super sexy king bling. if its not worth it to you, then dont buy a set.

    but c'mn man... dont be ugly about it. play nice and dont rag on others because they choose them. i never ragged on anyone for not using them just pointed out some facts regarding them.

    once you ride a set though, youll understand where your money went. i have numerous mtn bikes with varying wheelsets... paul, phil, surly, dt swiss; and all are wonderful! no need to be ashamed for riding any of them. and i can empathize with your position because years ago i was like those who never understood the logic behind running king hubs. then i rode a set and saw the light... HALLELUJAH!!! CAN I GET A WITNESS?!?!?!

    someday theyll all be kings...
    Last edited by monogod; 03-16-2007 at 06:11 PM.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  30. #30
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    I'm all for playing nice, but if you are going to be an facetious wise-a$$ about my math skills I can go that route too.

    From a value perspective, my opinion is that a Paul/Eno wheelset is superior. Plenty of performance and much cheaper. The steel cog on the ENO will outlast the Al CK anyway, so there's a strike against the durability of that option. For comparably durable cog you'd have to go with the heavier steel and/or spend even more money (hard to imagine such a thing is possible) replacing those Al cogs.

    I'm far from and ascetic when buying bike parts. Even my dusty BMX bike has a King headset . If money is not an issue, CK is a solid choice. But if your budget isn't unlimited the fact is you can build a lighter wheelset if you forgoe the smug satisfaction of having the most expensive blahdy blah and/or the tacky aesthetic of CK hubs (I can say that because I have a mango CK headset on my cross bike ). You can use a trials ENO FW and have just as many engagement points.

    Fuzzy math? Is that like when question why DT Swiss isn't also overpriced when it is cheaper and lighter?

    We're at a stalemate. CK is lighter Paul/Eno is cheaper. Pick your poison. I'm not insulted. Neither should you be. Its just the internet and neither of us is Chris King. Or I'm not, at least.

  31. #31
    meh... whatever
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    [QUOTE=PeanutButterBreath]
    We're at a stalemate. CK is lighter

    after all the bloviation you finally agree with me and then call it a stalemate??? guess the math teacher taught civics too...
    no seriously, we are BOTH winners... oh yeah... no kiddin. the lady who used to drive the little short bus that picked me up for school told me EVERYONE was a winner!!!
    I'm not insulted. Neither should you be.
    no mon, not in the least.

    for you see...

    the dude abides...

    p.s.
    even with a stainless steel cog the ck is lighter... tee hee
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  32. #32
    Retro Grouch
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    Pay your money and take your choice..

    Okay; the word on disc SS hubs..

    Cassette style disc

    American Classic* 244gm $270
    Bontrager 433gm $ 80
    DT Swiss 285gm $400
    King 335gm $400
    Novatec et al 640gm $ 80

    Freewheel (add $75 and 157gm for WB ENO)

    Paul 220/377gm $115/$190
    ENO 332/489gm $150/$225
    Surly 362/519gm $ 80/$155
    Phil Wood* 392/549gm $235/$310

    The ringers

    Shimano XT M765 435gm $ 50
    Shimano XTRM965 372gm $230

    *questionable longevity
    **probably the finest hub of it's kind made

    Brad
    Last edited by aka brad; 03-16-2007 at 10:30 PM.
    Just one more rep and I get the toaster!

  33. #33
    ravingbikefiend
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    When I was kid we had to ride our one speed, coaster brake equipped, 35 pound bikes, 5 miles to school... uphill... both ways... in the snow.

    Excluding professional sponsored racers, I wonder if many of the weight weenies are folks who have to keep lightening their bikes because they simply don't ride enough and if this predilection with reducing weight comes at a cost of actually enoying the ride.

    My 2 main commuters are all around the 30 pound mark and my round trip commute is close to 20 miles over a wide mix of terrain and I never feel like I'm riding a pig.
    I ride with 65'er...he's a mountain goat....But then again, we need to throw him in the mud and pack his pockets with lead shot before a scale will read him. - Psycho Mike

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  34. #34
    meh... whatever
    Reputation: monogod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
    When I was kid we had to ride our one speed, coaster brake equipped, 35 pound bikes, 5 miles to school... uphill... both ways... in the snow.

    Excluding professional sponsored racers, I wonder if many of the weight weenies are folks who have to keep lightening their bikes because they simply don't ride enough and if this predilection with reducing weight comes at a cost of actually enoying the ride.

    My 2 main commuters are all around the 30 pound mark and my round trip commute is close to 20 miles over a wide mix of terrain and I never feel like I'm riding a pig.
    the lighter the bike, the less energy it takes to propel it rapidly over long distances. thats simple physics.

    personally, i'd prefer to ride to school 5 miles in the snow uphill both ways on a 22lb. bike rather than a 35lb. bike. just cuz thats all they had when you were a young'n doesnt make it the best option now.

    call me post modern, but unless its a downhill, freeride, all mountain, or dirt jump bike i think a 30lb. bike is a pig... commuter or otherwise.

    nor do i think the guy is a weight weenie for asking how he could lighten up his cog. its a great bike but it is on the heavy side, and a few choice upgrades here and there turn a decent rig into an exceptional one. just sounds to me like he wants to go faster, farther, and climb better for the same amount of energy expenditure.

    besides, i generally try not to attach a derogatory label to someone or something just because i dont agree with them/it or understand the concept behind it.

    oh, and i think you meant "preoccupation" rather than "predilection". preoccupation is to be captivated or engrossed by a thought, concept, or idea; while predilection is to like or have a natural affinity for something.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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