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Thread: Hub choice

  1. #1
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    Hub choice

    Hey, I am sure this has been covered on another thread, but the search isn't working very well for me right now. I am building up my first single speed. Is it better to build a wheel with a single speed specific hub or is it better to just use a regular hub with a single speed adapter. It looks like XT hubs can be had fairly cheaply right now so that was my first choice. What other reasonably priced hubs would be recommended?

    Thanks

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    I used to think SS specific hubs were the way to go. Now, I'm on my second wheelset with a standard freehub and really can't tell the difference.

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    SS hubs exist for a reason. they are the proper tool for the job. however it can be done either way. there is a LOT of info out there if you look.
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  4. #4
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    For a first singlespeed, using a regular wheel that you already have might be the best choice. If you decide to stay with SS, then get a "specific" hub or wheel. I'm among the happy users of Hope SS/Trials rear hubs. They are loud, which you 1) like, 2) hate, or 3) don't worry about.

    "it IS possible that you are faster or slower than anybody else who is having at least as much if not more or less fun"

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    My mate is a dedicated SSer. He's ridden all sorts of combos but I think he is a fan of something simple and unusual like a free sprocket on a fixed hub or something like that. I'll send this to him but he's not going to be able to answer until tomorrow.

  6. #6
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    SS specific hubs are great, but your choices are very, very limited. if one is available, go for it, but don't make it a deal breaker.

  7. #7
    Clyde on a mission!
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    I wouldn't hesitate to use a regular XT hub rather than an SS specific one.

    The advantage of an SS specific hub is that the flanges will be perfectly symmetrical, the freehub on one side taking up the same amount of space as the disc brake on the other side. In theory that makes the wheel stronger than one build on a regular hub, where the slightly bigger freehub makes the flanges slightly lopsided. In reality though, every geared rider uses a slightly lopsided, regular freehub without any strength issues.

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    My SS hub is quite loud as well. I had assumed that the SS specific hub might use larger (stronger) palls to handle the high torque better. Anyone know if that is the case?
    Quote Originally Posted by perttime View Post
    For a first singlespeed, using a regular wheel that you already have might be the best choice. If you decide to stay with SS, then get a "specific" hub or wheel. I'm among the happy users of Hope SS/Trials rear hubs. They are loud, which you 1) like, 2) hate, or 3) don't worry about.

  9. #9
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    SS hubs provide less dish than a geared hub. This results in a stronger wheel. Geared riders don't have problems with more dish BECAUSE of gears. Use of gears provides less torque on the drive mechanism than a SS hub. Lots more torque applied to a SS hub during riding.

    That said, if this is your first SS, try it on a geared hub with spacers. If you decide to stick with it, you'll want a SS frame and wheel set. But beware, once you try it you may never go back
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  10. #10
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    Mate's commentary:

    "The reason for riding single speed will determine which hub you want to use.

    If you are only riding to the local coffee shop to hang out with your hipster mates then anything will do the job, not much will see hard use.
    If you are going to ride the bike properly then an XT hub will do the job, but i would strongly suggest a single speed specific rear sprocket and a chain ring/chain with matching widths.
    If you are looking to ride single speed because you are looking to do tricks/crash alot and generally break everything you touch then a true single speed hub is what you need, and you should be thinking about a SS frame as well.
    With regards to SS rear hubs, for the money a Hope trials hub is worth thinking about.
    All of the hubs types above should allow a good chainline by simple casettte spacers.

    And if you are after something bullet proof then a single speed hub with a screw on BMX style freewheel combined with a Trials Specific freewheel, like an ENO or Echo freewheel will be hard to break, this would then mean chainline will be adjusted with cranks or BB width, so more thought in parts choice will be needed before buying anything.

    Once you are single speeding another factor to keep in mind is crank length, 170mm is a bit short in my mind, I would look into a 175mm crank.

    Anything you choose will work for single speed, the most important thing is to get on your bike and have fun."

  11. #11
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    I am a big person. I can put out a lot of wattage. I am fit and can do it a lot. I have a standard hub with no problems.

  12. #12
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    I love SS specific hubs. I don't see much advantage though. I would be more concerned with points of engagement. My 72 POE on King hub is great. My 24 POE, on cheap hub for road rides (I don't use King wheel set for road rides), is horrible and annoying. The DISH of the wheel is non issue for me. I think a 10 speed cassette, in granny gear, puts way more torque on the spokes than any single speed rider can.

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    Thanks for all the info. Now most XT hubs are quick release. Is that a problem? Are the newer thru axles less likely to slip? Is there a kit to convert to bolt on? Is bolt on better?

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    Hope SS hubs are great, but very expensive. I got a set of Hope regular hubs on Stan's Flow rims and use the surley cog and spacers. Hub and Rim have lasted over a year now, but I just had to re-lace the rear wheel because the butted spokes started snapping one by one. You can usually pick up a regular wheelset for a lot cheaper.

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    Do you have track ends?

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    Just for the sake of conversation, doesn't the reduced gearing add to the length of the fulcrum, reducing the torque? If you shift into a gear equal to a 34:18 and climbed at the same or greater speed (on the same wheel size), then, you would be applying more torque.
    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    I love SS specific hubs. I don't see much advantage though. I would be more concerned with points of engagement. My 72 POE on King hub is great. My 24 POE, on cheap hub for road rides (I don't use King wheel set for road rides), is horrible and annoying. The DISH of the wheel is non issue for me. I think a 10 speed cassette, in granny gear, puts way more torque on the spokes than any single speed rider can.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankyone View Post
    My SS hub is quite loud as well. I had assumed that the SS specific hub might use larger (stronger) palls to handle the high torque better. Anyone know if that is the case?
    With Hope, it seems to be a brand feature, not model specific. Cannot comment on other brands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskybiker View Post
    ... most XT hubs are quick release. Is that a problem? ...
    What frame do you have, or what kind of dropouts?
    I'm not a purist, so am happily using converted "regular" frames with vertical dropouts. There, quick release vs. bolt-on doesn't make much difference.

    "it IS possible that you are faster or slower than anybody else who is having at least as much if not more or less fun"

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    I have a Breezer Thunder One frame with an eccentric BB and vertical dropouts

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    Quote Originally Posted by azjonboy View Post
    Use of gears provides less torque on the drive mechanism than a SS hub. Lots more torque applied to a SS hub during riding.
    I have to disagree there, you can't deduct that one system applies more torque than the other.

    Try looking at it from the rear wheels perspective. A twisting force is applied to the end of the hub. This force rotates the wheel. It doesn't matter one bit to the wheel whether that twisting force is applied by a single speed setup, geared setup, an engine or if pixies are turning it with a phillips head screwdriver.

    In other words, the torque applied to the rear hub is directly proportional with the speed the wheel is driven forward. If the geared rider is riding faster than the single speed rider, the geared rider is applying more torque to the rear hub than the SS rider - assuming that each bike and rider weighs the same and rides the same terrain. So your generalization is only true if the SS rider rides faster than the geared rider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankyone View Post
    Just for the sake of conversation, doesn't the reduced gearing add to the length of the fulcrum, reducing the torque? If you shift into a gear equal to a 34:18 and climbed at the same or greater speed (on the same wheel size), then, you would be applying more torque.
    Nope. Reducing the gearing (e.g. switching from 34x18 SS to 22x36 geared) increases the torque multiplication. A geared bike can deliver more torque to the ground per unit torque applied than an SS. The trade off is cadence. And on a geared bike, most riders will choose cadence over maximum torque in a climb because staying aerobic and spinning 90'ish rpms is more efficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    I have to disagree there, you can't deduct that one system applies more torque than the other.

    Try looking at it from the rear wheels perspective. A twisting force is applied to the end of the hub. This force rotates the wheel. It doesn't matter one bit to the wheel whether that twisting force is applied by a single speed setup, geared setup, an engine or if pixies are turning it with a phillips head screwdriver.

    In other words, the torque applied to the rear hub is directly proportional with the speed the wheel is driven forward. If the geared rider is riding faster than the single speed rider, the geared rider is applying more torque to the rear hub than the SS rider - assuming that each bike and rider weighs the same and rides the same terrain. So your generalization is only true if the SS rider rides faster than the geared rider.
    You're overlooking cadence. Think of each pedal stroke as a power pulse. The magnitude of the pulse and the frequency combine to determine speed. If I double cadence I can halve the magnitude and still go the same speed. Conversely, if I halve the cadence but double the magnitude. So the geared bike can deliver more twist to the rear wheel due to torque multiplication, but that isn't necessary because the rider can spin at 80rpm instead of grinding away at 40rpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskybiker View Post
    I have a Breezer Thunder One frame with an eccentric BB and vertical dropouts
    You don't need to worry about slippage then, a good QR will do the job.

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    Interesting conversation!
    I agree that the larger the mechanical advantage the higher the wheel torque.
    "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world". Archimedes
    True, Wheel torque could be increased by gearing, crank length and wheel diameter. "Crank torque" or "leg pain" was more what I was talking about! That is the part "we" have to provide.
    I have ridden lot's of geared bikes, and pumped up my share of steep stuff, and as the bike speed approaches zero and the grade 45% you still provide the power, but now other handling problems have surfaced. You tell me where geared bikes stall out. At that point, depending on fitness and genetic gifts, we are all providing nearly the same torque.
    When you have chosen one gear, you provide torque until you stall out because you have limited your system. Usually you are providing the maximum amount of torque your puny legs can provide (heavy guys can provide more torque, because it's limited by gravity"). "Mr Crank" don't know "Mister Wheel". "Mr Crank" just knows that you are busting his ass! or vise versa!

  24. #24
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    I got Hope evo 40t standard hub on my SS and I weigh a buck 70 so to me it has a lot to do not only with how you ride but your physical size as well. I don't have as much mass coming down on my bike as a 250 lb clyde so........ It works for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by perttime
    With Hope, it seems to be a brand feature, not model specific. Cannot comment on other brands.
    Yea their loud.......but you get used to it. I now think loud means it's working.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by iowamtb View Post
    Yea their loud.......but you get used to it. I now think loud means it's working.
    I use my Hopes to alert other trail users that they are not alone in the woods Also, on the rare occasions that I'm riding with others, people can hear where I am even if they don't see me.

    "it IS possible that you are faster or slower than anybody else who is having at least as much if not more or less fun"

  26. #26
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    I have both types of hubs, Hope trials SS and a formula hub which is quick release. I use a XT skewer on the formula hub and have no slippage issues with my Jamis which has track ends, on my other Jamis I use the Hope hub which has the sliders. Both bikes see the same trails and other than the POE on the Hope hub they both work fine for eastern PA rocky, rooty, hilly, trails and my 210 LBS carcass.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by solo-x View Post
    You're overlooking cadence. Think of each pedal stroke as a power pulse. The magnitude of the pulse and the frequency combine to determine speed. If I double cadence I can halve the magnitude and still go the same speed. Conversely, if I halve the cadence but double the magnitude.
    I agree to your points about magnitude and frequency, since the power output is torque multiplied with rpms.

    Quote Originally Posted by solo-x View Post
    So the geared bike can deliver more twist to the rear wheel due to torque multiplication, but that isn't necessary because the rider can spin at 80rpm instead of grinding away at 40rpm.
    The geared bike only delivers more twist to the rear wheel if the rider is able to power the bike forward faster than his single speed buddy.

    Lets at least agree that the harder you twist the hub of a rear wheel, the faster the bike goes, right?

    That must also mean, that the bike travelling the fastest has the highest twisting force applied to the hub of the rear wheel, assuming that the weight of rider and bike are the same, both have the same rolling resistance against the ground and the wheels are the same size.

    It really doesn't matter how the twisting force is delivered, whether it's geared, SS or due to faerie dust, the wheel that receives the highest twisting force to the hub moves forward the fastest, completely oblivious to how that force is generated.

    Now as a rider it might be more comfortable delivering the power at a certain combination of cadence and torque delivered at the pedals, but I promise you that if you're passed by a rider of similar weight with a similar size rear wheel he's applying more torque to his rear hub than you are, no matter what kind of geared or SS setup he has.

  28. #28
    Oaktown Honkey on Strava
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    Ah, that was fun! Now let's talk about how loud hubs, alert hikers that you are awesome! My brother is a deaf hiker, he already hates you. So please yield to hikers always, no matter how awesome your wheelset is. Some people just can't hear you, even though you think they should. I am so Troll like! Sorry. But kind of just having fun everyone.

  29. #29
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    Blueskybiker, did you figure out hubs yet? I am a huge fan of Shimano, having owned 2 XT, and 1 XTR, wheelset, along with an MT 65 wheelset. I unloaded all of 'em once people started breaking rear freehub body's. I cannot recommend Shimano hubs, as this forum is jammed with stories of breakage. There is no problem using a regular 10 speed hub with spacers for a singlespeed, it's that simple. I use singlespeed hubs, now that I am fully committed to SS. They are cool. But I have to pay more for the cool factor. It's kind of bling factor. The high engagement hubs are so much nicer for cadence, than my cheap 24 point of engagement hub, which is annoying on my spare SS wheelset. But it also works fine. Shimano has replaced everything (3 items, over the years) I have ever broken within warranty period. Period. Awesome company in my opinion. But I would look elsewhere for pre 2015 hubs.
    Last edited by hoolie; 05-23-2015 at 10:31 AM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    I have to disagree there, you can't deduct that one system applies more torque than the other.

    Try looking at it from the rear wheels perspective. A twisting force is applied to the end of the hub. This force rotates the wheel. It doesn't matter one bit to the wheel whether that twisting force is applied by a single speed setup, geared setup, an engine or if pixies are turning it with a phillips head screwdriver.

    In other words, the torque applied to the rear hub is directly proportional with the speed the wheel is driven forward. If the geared rider is riding faster than the single speed rider, the geared rider is applying more torque to the rear hub than the SS rider - assuming that each bike and rider weighs the same and rides the same terrain. So your generalization is only true if the SS rider rides faster than the geared rider.
    you seem to be confusing torque with power. they're totally separate things. speed is more related to power, and little to do with torque. in this case torque has more to do with acceleration. example: a rider maintaining 18mph on flat ground is making almost no torque and just using power. a rider going 8mph while accelerating (or up an incline) could be producing more torque than the other rider. so speed is not the determining factor.

    think of a car engine, every manufacturer gives two specs, horsepower and torque. going down the highway at 60mph a car only needs a little torque to maintain speed. but if the car is stationary it needs a lot more torque to get up to that speed.

    most cars can't spin their tires at 60mph. not enough torque due to gearing. but the same car can spin its tires while stationary because the gearing increases torque.

    power:speed torque:acceleration

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Lets at least agree that the harder you twist the hub of a rear wheel, the faster the bike goes, right?

    That must also mean, that the bike travelling the fastest has the highest twisting force applied to the hub of the rear wheel, assuming that the weight of rider and bike are the same, both have the same rolling resistance against the ground and the wheels are the same size.

    It really doesn't matter how the twisting force is delivered, whether it's geared, SS or due to faerie dust, the wheel that receives the highest twisting force to the hub moves forward the fastest, completely oblivious to how that force is generated.

    Now as a rider it might be more comfortable delivering the power at a certain combination of cadence and torque delivered at the pedals, but I promise you that if you're passed by a rider of similar weight with a similar size rear wheel he's applying more torque to his rear hub than you are, no matter what kind of geared or SS setup he has.
    again not accurate. "twisting force" generates acceleration. the harder you twist, the faster you accelerate. once you are up to speed, you stop producing a high level of torque and use power to maintain speed.

    in the case of a geared bike, the gears magnify torque and increase your acceleration.

    put two exact clones of the same rider side by side, one on geared bike and one on SS. in a race off the line the geared bike accelerates faster because more torque is being generated through the hub. get it? there's no way the SS can accelerate at the same speed, even though the riders produce the same amount of power.

    pressure on the pedals is not linear to torque on a hub (or outright speed) except on a SS.

    i hope i got all that across so it made sense?
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BENKD29 View Post
    you seem to be confusing torque with power. they're totally separate things.
    No, you seem to be confused about basic physics. Power = torque * cadence (converted to radians per second). They are very related.

    Have a look at this power and torque graph from a BMW motorcycle:
    Hub choice-bmw_k1300r_dyno.jpg

    Lets pick a number. At 4000 rpm I read something like 114 Nm and 48 kW.

    First we need to convert the rounds per minute to radians per second.

    4000 rpm = 66.7 rounds per second.

    Each round is two times pi, so 66.7 rounds per second turns into 418.7 radians per second.

    114 Nm * 418.7 rad/s = 47728 Watts or 47.7 kW <- which matches the reading of 48 kW perfectly.

    Lets try another. Peak torque is 140 Nm at 8250 rpm.

    140 Nm * (8250 / 60 * 6.28) rad/s = 120312 W = 120.3 kW <- which again fits perfectly with the power curve hitting 120 kW at 8250 rpm.

    Feel free to try with other numbers or find another dyno graph on the internet to play with, it always matches as long as you convert the units properly before multiplying.

    Power = torque * cadence but depending on the units used you might need to do a conversion first.

    I hope the above makes it absolutely clear how power, torque and cadence are connected on each other, which pretty much invalidates your speculations on whether torque or power makes a bike accelerate or maintain speed. Power makes a bike accelerate. Power makes a bike maintain speed. Power is generated from a combination of torque and cadence.

    Next time you're out driving your car, try doing a steady 40 mph in fifth gear, then floor the accelerator and see how fast you get to 60 mph. Your engine will probably be around the peak torque at those speeds in fifth gear.

    Bring the speed back down to 40 mph, shift into third gear, floor it once more and get to 60 mph. Your engine should be around it's peak power at those speeds in third.

    I'm absolutely convinced that you'll get from 40 to 60 faster by letting your engine rev in third gear, that's why it's wise to downshift before doing an overtaking maneuver. You sacrifice torque by downshifting to get a higher cadence, because it's the combination of torque and cadence that's important, not torque in itself. The combination of torque and cadence is called power.

    Then what about driving your car up a steep hill dragging a heavy trailer? You're in fifth gear and the car is struggling, going slower and slower despite having the engine revs right around the peak torque number. At some point you downshift to bring the engine revs up, sacrificing a higher torque number for a higher cadence, getting a better combination of torque and cadence. Once again, the combination of torque and cadence is called power, so you downshift to get the engine to rev closer to the peak power rpm.

    So no matter if it's acceleration or getting up a hill, power is what you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by BENKD29 View Post
    in the case of a geared bike, the gears magnify torque and increase your acceleration.
    Only if you manage to keep up the cadence at the same time, otherwise we should all be riding with a 5 tooth chain ring and 50 tooth cog to get a shitload of torque magnification. A 5:50 setup allows you to put a whole lot more torque to the rear wheel, but because you can't do a cadence of 500 rpm, you'll be easily outrun in every aspect by the rider using a regular 32:20 at 90 rpm. You have to aim for the best combination of torque and cadence, not just torque in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by BENKD29 View Post
    put two exact clones of the same rider side by side, one on geared bike and one on SS. in a race off the line the geared bike accelerates faster because more torque is being generated through the hub. get it? there's no way the SS can accelerate at the same speed, even though the riders produce the same amount of power.
    If the riders produce the same amount of power they will be accelerating the same and going the same speed, no matter how they are geared.

    Look at it this way. Both riders produce 200 watts, just to pick a number.

    Rider A produces the 200 W by spinning a low gear ratio fast. He is sitting and spinning. He can't really produce a big torque number to the pedals sitting down, but he makes up for it by spinning fast and using the low gear to magnify the torque to the rear hub, but at the same time the rear hub spins slower than the crank. The 120 rpm at the crank is reduced to 60 rpm at the rear hub, because the gearing is 1:2.

    Rider B produces the 200 W by standing and mashing. He can't really produce a high cadence, but boy does he stomp those pedals into huge torque numbers. Because he runs a high gear the torque is reduced going to the rear hub, but the rear hub spins faster than the crank, in fact the 2:1 ratio ensures that the rider doing 30 rpm at the crank turns into the hub spinning at 60 rpm.

    To be honest it's easier just to look at the power number. If the riders produce 200 W it can't really go anywhere but the rear hub. A tiny bit is lost due to friction in the bearings, but a chain drive is pretty efficient, so 200 W put into the pedals turns into pretty much 200 W delivered to the rear hub otherwise you would be able to feel the bearings, chain ring, cogs and chain heating up.

    Which brings us back to the beginning, it doesn't matter one bit to the rear hub how those 200 watts are produced, just as it doesn't matter if you spin the rear hub at 60 rpm by putting 120 rpm to the crank and using a 1:2 gearing or by putting 30 rpm to the crank and using a 2:1 gearing. To the rear hub and the rear wheel it just doesn't matter.

  32. #32
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    ok, i'm not going to argue. that's not what this thread is about.

    I may not have clearly or 100% accurately explained what i was trying to say. but this issue has been covered thoroughly. I'll just say that i disagree with 90% of that ^.
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BENKD29 View Post
    ok, i'm not going to argue. that's not what this thread is about.

    I may not have clearly or 100% accurately explained what i was trying to say. but this issue has been covered thoroughly. I'll just say that i disagree with 90% of that ^.
    Ben I read your above post about torque and what you say is spot on. I didn't read the post below yours from the mad scientist though. Torque gets you UP TO SPEED and HORSEPOWER maintains speed once you get there.

  34. #34
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    FFS people, singlespeeds are not harder on parts, typically just the opposite. aesthetically I think a SS specific hub looks better, I would start with a used or inexpensive prebuilt geared wheel, figure out gearing and chainline and upgrade down the road.
    If you have horizontal dropouts, a bolt on type wheel will work better than a quick release although a QR will work
    I've been inside too long.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by iowamtb View Post
    Ben I read your above post about torque and what you say is spot on. I didn't read the post below yours from the mad scientist though. Torque gets you UP TO SPEED and HORSEPOWER maintains speed once you get there.
    That's the spirit, God forbid you'd actually learn something from science when your gut feeling clearly works so much better for you - no matter if it's correct or not..

  36. #36
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    Iowamtb you got a link to a thread that covers this? I'm looking for a good thread to help me explain what i mean. i know it's been covered. i found a few...

    http://forums.mtbr.com/clydesdales-t...bs-889135.html

    http://forums.mtbr.com/singlespeed/s...bs-889129.html

    Power output vs RPMs
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    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by KgB View Post
    FFS people, singlespeeds are not harder on parts, typically just the opposite.
    Stick a geared chainring and sprocket on your single speed and see how long it lasts

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Stick a geared chainring and sprocket on your single speed and see how long it lasts
    you can do this with no problems

  39. #39
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    It looks like XT hubs can be had fairly cheaply right now so that was my first choice. What other reasonably priced hubs would be recommended?

    Thanks
    My SLX rear hub has 36 POE, supposedly better freehub mechanism (no oversized axle, so more room for the ratchet mechanism) than XT, works fine and is so dirt cheap I can hardly justify getting anything more expensive.
    Ride more!

  40. #40
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    Geared hubs work fine in a single speed configuration and there is no perceptible change in terms of power and climbing ability as compared to a wheel with a single speed hub.

    On bikes that have an eccentric bottom bracket, a skewer works for me. For single speed frames with sliders I have to use something with more grip to avoid axle slippage. In that scenario, Chris King hub with fun bolts or DT Swiss 240 with similar optional big bolts is my preference mainly because the bearings last for many years with minimal maintenance.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BENKD29 View Post
    Iowamtb you got a link to a thread that covers this? I'm looking for a good thread to help me explain what i mean. i know it's been covered. i found a few...

    http://forums.mtbr.com/clydesdales-t...bs-889135.html

    http://forums.mtbr.com/singlespeed/s...bs-889129.html

    Power output vs RPMs
    Ben no I dont. I am a retired auto mechanic and retired just short of 20 years in the business. what I stated about torque and horsepower is what I was taught at Lincoln Technical Institute back in 1992 from one of my many knowledgeable instructors. It's a fact. Sandrenseren I personally don't care about science that you spew even though I am sure on paper all the math adds up. You don't need to be a nerd to understand it. Torque is what twists driveshafts, rips motor mounts, breaks axles, crankshafts, explodes transmissions blah blah blah. You want me to go on? Horsepower doesn't do this shit torque does. Without sufficient horsepower you can not maintain your speed once you hit it. Every vehicle/engine combo has a,sweet spot. I don't think I need to say anymore and I don't need pens paper and calculators to figure this out.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by iowamtb View Post
    Ben no I dont. I am a retired auto mechanic and retired just short of 20 years in the business. what I stated about torque and horsepower is what I was taught at Lincoln Technical Institute back in 1992 from one of my many knowledgeable instructors. It's a fact. Sandrenseren I personally don't care about science that you spew even though I am sure on paper all the math adds up. You don't need to be a nerd to understand it. Torque is what twists driveshafts, rips motor mounts, breaks axles, crankshafts, explodes transmissions blah blah blah. You want me to go on? Horsepower doesn't do this shit torque does. Without sufficient horsepower you can not maintain your speed once you hit it. Every vehicle/engine combo has a,sweet spot. I don't think I need to say anymore and I don't need pens paper and calculators to figure this out.

    Single speeding for 3 years now.....riding all my life. On my third rear wheel in as many years.....

    I ride the bike hard. Hope this third set is the ticket, better be for the price.....
    Dave

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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbnuts View Post
    Single speeding for 3 years now.....riding all my life. On my third rear wheel in as many years.....

    I ride the bike hard. Hope this third set is the ticket, better be for the price.....
    What kind of wheels and hubs have you been using? A friend of mine at my LBS talked me into going with a Hope. He uses them too and he rides hard. He uses cassette hubs and I decided too also. Now me not tearing one up wouldn't be a basis for anything as I don't get to ride that much but he rides up to 5 days a week 15-30 miles each ride and he hasn't torn his up that I am aware of.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by iowamtb View Post
    What kind of wheels and hubs have you been using? A friend of mine at my LBS talked me into going with a Hope. He uses them too and he rides hard. He uses cassette hubs and I decided too also. Now me not tearing one up wouldn't be a basis for anything as I don't get to ride that much but he rides up to 5 days a week 15-30 miles each ride and he hasn't torn his up that I am aware of.
    First set were the stock stout SL wheels that came on the bike...they lasted about 1 season. The second set were Easton XC one SS specific, they lasted less than a season. The current set are Roval Control SL with DT 240 hubs.....fingers crossed.

  45. #45
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    anyone have a 36 hole ss hub (non-disc) they'd be willing to part with? PM me...

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by iowamtb View Post
    Ben no I dont. I am a retired auto mechanic and retired just short of 20 years in the business. what I stated about torque and horsepower is what I was taught at Lincoln Technical Institute back in 1992 from one of my many knowledgeable instructors. It's a fact. Sandrenseren I personally don't care about science that you spew even though I am sure on paper all the math adds up. You don't need to be a nerd to understand it. Torque is what twists driveshafts, rips motor mounts, breaks axles, crankshafts, explodes transmissions blah blah blah. You want me to go on? Horsepower doesn't do this shit torque does. Without sufficient horsepower you can not maintain your speed once you hit it. Every vehicle/engine combo has a,sweet spot. I don't think I need to say anymore and I don't need pens paper and calculators to figure this out.
    One last stab at this before I give up.

    I don't doubt your experiences, only your conclusion that horsepower doesn't do the shit torque does is wrong.

    Lets say I have a table with the edge hanging out half a foot past the table legs. If I put my 250 lbs body on the edge of that table I'm generating 500 foot pounds of torque, but nothing twists or bends or explodes. Actually nothing happens because there is no movement.

    Now imagine an old meat grinder, one of those butcher things for making minced meat with a funnel at the top and a big, round wheel for turning the grinder by hand. Imagine the wheel has four spokes, each a foot long. Now you take a 10 lbs weight with a hook and hangs it from one of the horizontal spokes. That's 10 foot pounds of torque right there and the wheel turns a quarter of a revolution and stops with the weight at the bottom. Half an hour later you move the weight onto the spoke that is now horizontal and once more 10 foot pounds of torque is applied. Not much work is done that way and not much meat gets ground.

    Now say you speed up and move the 10 pound weight every 10 seconds or maybe even every single second. Still exactly the same torque as it's exactly the same 10 pound weight being moved, but you get a whole lot more work done.

    What I'm trying to say is the torque applied in itself isn't all that useful, you also need to look at how often it's applied.

    500 foot pounds of torque is useless when it's my fat ass on the edge of a table once. 500 foot pounds of torque applied a 1000 times a minute (1000 rpm) is a lot more useful. 500 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm is a completely different beast, in fact six times as much as 500 foot pounds of torque at 1000 rpm.

    So what tears up those motor mounts and twists those driveshafts isn't the torque alone, but the combination of torque and frequency. I sure as hell couldn't twist a driveshaft by gripping it with a half foot long wrench and applying all my weight to it, but adding the same 500 foot pounds 3000 times a minute might just do the trick.

    And whether you like it or not the combination of torque and frequency is called power.

    Once again, I'm not doubting your experiences, the engines that twisted those driveshafts undoubtedly had a lot of torque, but I'm willing to bet that they had that torque at a relatively high rpm number resulting in quite a lot of power at that rpm too.

  47. #47
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    Easton One SS wheelset lasted me 1 ride. It broke on first ride. Not because I am hardcore, it sucks. Bad machining inside hub ratchet. Your 240 hubs, will last, and last, and last........

  48. #48
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    I always go with a geared hub for one reason. Resale value. Trying to sell a single speed whilst is a pain in the ass. Not many people are specifically looking for them. If you buy a geared version you can sell them no problem. I have also converted to 1x10 a few times for big alpine rides and with a ss hub, you are SOL.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    One last stab at this before I give up.

    I don't doubt your experiences, only your conclusion that horsepower doesn't do the shit torque does is wrong.

    Lets say I have a table with the edge hanging out half a foot past the table legs. If I put my 250 lbs body on the edge of that table I'm generating 500 foot pounds of torque, but nothing twists or bends or explodes. Actually nothing happens because there is no movement.

    Now imagine an old meat grinder, one of those butcher things for making minced meat with a funnel at the top and a big, round wheel for turning the grinder by hand. Imagine the wheel has four spokes, each a foot long. Now you take a 10 lbs weight with a hook and hangs it from one of the horizontal spokes. That's 10 foot pounds of torque right there and the wheel turns a quarter of a revolution and stops with the weight at the bottom. Half an hour later you move the weight onto the spoke that is now horizontal and once more 10 foot pounds of torque is applied. Not much work is done that way and not much meat gets ground.

    Now say you speed up and move the 10 pound weight every 10 seconds or maybe even every single second. Still exactly the same torque as it's exactly the same 10 pound weight being moved, but you get a whole lot more work done.

    What I'm trying to say is the torque applied in itself isn't all that useful, you also need to look at how often it's applied.

    500 foot pounds of torque is useless when it's my fat ass on the edge of a table once. 500 foot pounds of torque applied a 1000 times a minute (1000 rpm) is a lot more useful. 500 foot pounds of torque at 6000 rpm is a completely different beast, in fact six times as much as 500 foot pounds of torque at 1000 rpm.

    So what tears up those motor mounts and twists those driveshafts isn't the torque alone, but the combination of torque and frequency. I sure as hell couldn't twist a driveshaft by gripping it with a half foot long wrench and applying all my weight to it, but adding the same 500 foot pounds 3000 times a minute might just do the trick.

    And whether you like it or not the combination of torque and frequency is called power.

    Once again, I'm not doubting your experiences, the engines that twisted those driveshafts undoubtedly had a lot of torque, but I'm willing to bet that they had that torque at a relatively high rpm number resulting in quite a lot of power at that rpm too.
    I understand what your saying. And I never claimed to be an expert on everything but it was always widely known that high rpms won't blow anything UNTIL you get too high. Thats the redline. But low rpms and LUGGING with plenty of torque will wreak havoc. Example in my younger days I had less sense and I decided to go half and half with a friend of mine who raced a stock car at our local track but had a limited budget. So I became half owner and we had a "bigger limited budget" lol. We had one engine that was a 360ish stroker small block chevy that was dynoed around 450 hp. Nothing spectacular but we raced in a claimer class so you had to keep the money down for fear of losing your engine. One night coming out of turn 2 at a lower rpm and speed my driver gave it some juice to hit the straightaway and smoke flew everywhere. The back of the crank broke off and ripped the clutch and bent the input shaft and broke the tranny case. We found out that the GM Forged crank that was in that engine had a habit of this due to being tempered too hard and not having enough flex. Long story short lugging is harder on stuff than revving high and having higher torque values and HP readings at a given rpm. To me lugging is the same as "your fat ass on the table" (you said it not me) I don't know that's my take. My neighbor across the street is an ex Boeing employee of 30+ years who writes software and some of it was top secret missle software I have been told. He now works in Eastern Iowa for some corporation writing software and comes how on the weekends. As nice a guy as he is I will say I will never let him put air in my tires or change a tire lol. He's a GENIUS but that doesn't make him practical. Take care.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrock450 View Post
    I always go with a geared hub for one reason. Resale value. Trying to sell a single speed whilst is a pain in the ass. Not many people are specifically looking for them. If you buy a geared version you can sell them no problem. I have also converted to 1x10 a few times for big alpine rides and with a ss hub, you are SOL.

    That was a deciding factor for me as well.

  51. #51
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    This tread cracks me up OP: either wheel will work fine. I usually run geared hubs on my SS bikes so thy are easy to resell and can be swapped to our geared bikes.

    That said, anyone with a basic grasp of gearing should understand that the internals of a geared hub, on a geared bike, experiences more torque on a regular basis than any SS rider can put out. For a given torque applied at the cranks, a SS bike has a fixed torque multiplication factor based on the chosen gearing. Put out the same torque at the crank on a geared bike, in a lower gear, and the hub internals see a much higher amount of torque.

    This, combined with the extreme traction available to fat bikes, for example, are they they are notorious for trashing hub internals. Bike heavy bike, tons of traction, low gears == boom!

    Your legs and the crank will often see higher toque levels on a SS... but that is different than what the hub sees. Also remember that doesn't mean you're putting out higher power on the SS, as power is force x speed.

    That said, a SS rider can generate a lot of shock loading on the hub. But that is really a offshoot of the typical SS riding style (i.e. on/off) more than anything else.

  52. #52
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    Absolutely love my Chris King SS hub. I started off using spacers on my Hope Pro 2 hub and it worked fine. But the lack of engagement points really showed on the SS. I don't notice it at all on a geared bike. When I switched to the CK, it was heavenly. So even if I don't get another CK hub in the future if I ever get another SS hub...it will without a doubt have high engagement points.
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    Einstein has rolled over in his grave. I don't think he required any torque or power to do it.

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