HOLY S$#@! that's scary- Phil Wood Hub- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    HOLY S$#@! that's scary- Phil Wood Hub

    so, my new single speed set up is way nicer than anything i've had before, in theory. built some nice PW wood wheels and i have paragon sliders (see this thread for the problems with them). anyway, i'm out for a long ride with a friend and there is this great root section. i don't seem to be on my skills today, nothing is going well, and i don't clear it. pick the bike up and HOLY crap my rear wheel almost falls out of the drops. the drive side bolt-on axle has backed out. thank god my chain tension was good and the other side was still tight or i might have had a better story to tell. anyway, did some brief research- looks like this isn't totally unusual. anyone have this happen to them? any good answers? chris king uses an 8 mm bolt for added torque on their axle bolts.

  2. #2
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    Wow, I've never heard of Phil Wood bolts backing out.
    I've been running my PW hub mostly fixed offroad for the last year and have never had a problem with the bolts backing out. Are you using the Phil Axel Bolt Washers? (As shown in my photo.)
    I'm using a 6mm Pedro's Hex Pedal Driver to get the bolts good and tight. Maybe that would help.

    jw


    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt_Diggler
    so, my new single speed set up is way nicer than anything i've had before, in theory. built some nice PW wood wheels and i have paragon sliders (see this thread for the problems with them). anyway, i'm out for a long ride with a friend and there is this great root section. i don't seem to be on my skills today, nothing is going well, and i don't clear it. pick the bike up and HOLY crap my rear wheel almost falls out of the drops. the drive side bolt-on axle has backed out. thank god my chain tension was good and the other side was still tight or i might have had a better story to tell. anyway, did some brief research- looks like this isn't totally unusual. anyone have this happen to them? any good answers? chris king uses an 8 mm bolt for added torque on their axle bolts.
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  3. #3
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    Hmmm, been running Phil hubs for more than 20 years and have never had an issue such as this, and I'm not that good with pre-ride maintenance.

    I always use a drop of lock-tite on my bolts, however, to insure that I do not get any surprises.

    Any indication of why this might have occurred?

    cheers,

    rody
    As requested by the MTBR gods, I am the voice of Groovy Cycleworks, check it out... http://www.groovycycleworks.com

  4. #4
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    interesting

    so, here is the deal. i built the wheels 3 weeks ago and when i did i tightened the bolts down well. i've ridden the bike 8-10 times since then and hadn't touched the hub or dropouts, though i did have to screw with the tension a few times. here is my set-up. i don't have those nice bolts with washers you're showing and i think that might make a difference. obviously i need to be more diligent with pre-ride checks of these things, but with bolt on i figured just set and forget. i'm hoping this was more of an anomaly than a regular occurrence.
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  5. #5
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    Nice bike. Bad punctuation.

    If you use a big T-handle allen like a Park, you can get plenty of torque on it; use the long side as the handle. Use loctite, too.

    This one's on the house....
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  6. #6
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    why not convert the PH's to QR? Works for me.

  7. #7
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    I think that's more a Dirt_Diggler problem than a Phil Wood issue. .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rody
    Hmmm, been running Phil hubs for more than 20 years and have never had an issue such as this, and I'm not that good with pre-ride maintenance.
    I'm with Rody here. I do use a lot of grease on the threads and a long-handled hex-wrench to make sure things are tight.

  9. #9
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    I've been running a phil hub for 15 years on my ss with the same bolts you have and I've got track dropouts. no locktite just a little grease. Never had an issue, but I have always used a long handle wrench on it

  10. #10
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    well, the votes are in and it sounds like i'm at fault, and potentially an idiot with poor grammar and punctuation skills to boot. not a lot to argue about.

    i put new tires on the bike for a race this weekend, and i tightened everything down good and tight (no loctite though). if it happens again then maybe we can re-open the ballot box.

  11. #11
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    i think there's a general consensus that Dirt Diggler's *rod* is not long enough (despite the misleading mtbr handle)....and that he lacks sufficient energy to torque his own short rod so his Wood stays *on*......so sad.....so very sad......



    i write this knowing full well he's gonna stomp my skinny tattooed butt into the ground at an 8 hr SS solo race this weekend....ugh
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  12. #12
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    i have never ever ever ever had any issue with a phil bolt. ever.

    just to be clear, no problems ever. i suspect there is something else at work...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn
    i suspect there is something else at work...
    like the supernatural?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM
    i think there's a general consensus that Dirt Diggler's *rod* is not long enough (despite the misleading mtbr handle)....and that he lacks sufficient energy to torque his own short rod so his Wood stays *on*......so sad.....so very sad......
    damn...! its a good thing the mrs. doesn't read these forums. right now she thinks she's the only one aware of my problems.

  15. #15
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    Sorry to bump this thread back up, I have not heard or seen our bolts back out before. If this problem continues please let me know. If you are doing heavy ridding you might want to upgrade to a set of out larger washers as was posted earlier.



    I talk to one of our engineers about your adjustable rear drop out and depending on the aluminum, the smooth washer that you show in your picture may allow the bolt to loosen up as that part of the frame flexes.

    Regards,

    Garrett

    Phil Wood & Co.
    Last edited by PW&Co; 04-06-2008 at 11:23 PM.

  16. #16
    used to be uno-speedo....
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    It looks like you have the road bolts as opposed to the bigger mtn bike bolts? Just a guess!

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    Quote Originally Posted by uno-speedo
    It looks like you have the road bolts as opposed to the bigger mtn bike bolts? Just a guess!
    The bolts for our road and mtn bike hubs are the same, the washers are different.

    Regards,

    Garrett
    Garrett from Phil Wood & Co.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt_Diggler
    so, my new single speed set up is way nicer than anything i've had before, in theory. built some nice PW wood wheels and i have paragon sliders (see this thread for the problems with them). anyway, i'm out for a long ride with a friend and there is this great root section. i don't seem to be on my skills today, nothing is going well, and i don't clear it. pick the bike up and HOLY crap my rear wheel almost falls out of the drops. the drive side bolt-on axle has backed out. thank god my chain tension was good and the other side was still tight or i might have had a better story to tell. anyway, did some brief research- looks like this isn't totally unusual. anyone have this happen to them? any good answers? chris king uses an 8 mm bolt for added torque on their axle bolts.
    Dirt,

    I just want to say Phil is totally standup. Not to hijack the thread but check out my PW bb failure. It was on a singlespeed and climbing up hill and heard a loud click and the bearing broke apart and scored the shell with the ball bearings! But I got a new one in less than a week. They couldn't believe it either.
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  19. #19
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    8 hour race saturday- after 81 miles and 12,000 feet of climbing the bolts are tight. all i can think was that i just didn't tighten them down well. i doubt i'll have the problem again.

    agree that PW is the bomb. i have had nothing but the best from their products and great interactions with their service staff. i have PW BBs is my single speed, track, cyclocross, and road bikes, and one other set of their hubs. i've also used their bearing to replace outboard bearings on raceface bottom brackets. i heart PW.

  20. #20
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    so, it happened again. had to have the local LBS change my freewheel cause i don't have a vise and couldn't get it off with the 15" crescent. i raced a local race up in Napa, which was held at the same venue the SSWC will be in august. first lap, 2/3 of the way done, i feel like i just can't pick a good line on the descents, then, when i start climbing i feel the rear end movement and i hear the noise of the axle bouncing around in the drops. pheck.

    the shop and the mechanic i used are both top notch. i'm sure he tightened it "enough" based on his standards, but its obvious that this set-up needs some serious torque put into it. for the record, i haven't had a single issue since my post in april after torquing everything down, but i check regularly. just re-posting as a heads up to others to be diligent and trust no one.

  21. #21
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    I can honestly say

    I've avoided PW hubs because of their boat anchor weight. However, I've had some other really good hubs slip and loosen. White Ind. ENO hub and two different Paul hubs. I've been running a King SS with it's "Fun Bolts" for a long time now and they don't slip, creak or come loose. Awesome setup. However some days that freewheel buzz make we want to stab myself in the eye with the screw driver.
    Everyone has the right to be stupid, but you are abusing the priveledge.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt_Diggler
    so, it happened again. had to have the local LBS change my freewheel cause i don't have a vise and couldn't get it off with the 15" crescent. i raced a local race up in Napa, which was held at the same venue the SSWC will be in august. first lap, 2/3 of the way done, i feel like i just can't pick a good line on the descents, then, when i start climbing i feel the rear end movement and i hear the noise of the axle bouncing around in the drops. pheck.

    the shop and the mechanic i used are both top notch. i'm sure he tightened it "enough" based on his standards, but its obvious that this set-up needs some serious torque put into it. for the record, i haven't had a single issue since my post in april after torquing everything down, but i check regularly. just re-posting as a heads up to others to be diligent and trust no one.
    In other words, you should always double check known issues on your bIke after handing it off to someone else for work. Could have saved yourself some trouble, and probably some labor $$$ if you'd taken in just the wheel for a freewheel swap. Reinstall it yourself and know for sure that everything is tightened up proper.

  23. #23
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    sorry, new computer, double post.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomimcmillar
    In other words, you should always double check known issues on your bIke after handing it off to someone else for work. Could have saved yourself some trouble, and probably some labor $$$ if you'd taken in just the wheel for a freewheel swap. Reinstall it yourself and know for sure that everything is tightened up proper.

    basically yeah. but since i ride into work, the shop, the train, etcetera, its not an option to just take the wheel. its not a short ride either- 16 miles is the shortest route. besides, a single occurrence doesn't make something an issue does it? at least that's what i keep arguing with my therapist and the local law enforcement now, though, its an issue.

  25. #25
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    .......
    Last edited by IntheBush; 07-08-2008 at 06:50 PM.

  26. #26
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    You need chain tensioners. This is common for many riders... that is why so many companies make permanent tensioners.

  27. #27
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    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    You need chain tensioners. This is common for many riders... that is why so many companies make permanent tensioners.
    I believe he's running Paragons. They ARE the tensioners.

    DD - Did you try the drop of blue lock-tite as Rody suggested?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    You need chain tensioners...
    how does a chain tensioner prevent the axle bolts from coming loose?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsdoable
    how does a chain tensioner prevent the axle bolts from coming loose?
    Because one like I'm trying to post a picture of below will help keep the wheel from moving at all. It adds more stability back there. If the hubs is some sort of tensioner system, it depends on the nut to not only keep the frame tight to the hub but also to keep it from slipping forward. An external tensioner or a grub screw from the front through the dropout will keep your chain tight even if the screw were to come loose, which it is less likely to do with what I'm talking about. Not sure if it's clear but it will help. The bike in the picture needs to have the locknut tightened up but this will give you a good idea of what I mean.



    OK, pic didn't work but go to this thread and scroll down.

    https://forums.mtbr.com/singlespeed/greatest-surly-1x1-ever-built-ever-428688.html

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    Because one like I'm trying to post a picture of below will help keep the wheel from moving at all. It adds more stability back there.
    You just don't get it.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bykegnurd
    I've avoided PW hubs because of their boat anchor weight.
    Yea, the way they work just like new every day for 10 years sucks too.

    The front hub on my fixie was formerly on a SS MTB. I bought it in '99, it's on its 3rd rim and if I leave that bike upside down the wheel will oscillate around the valve stem for about half an hour. The 10yo bearings with 10000 hard dirt and commuter miles are <i>amazing</i>.

    I broke the aluminum axle on my current disc hub. I rolled into PW on a Friday evening around 5pm. They replaced the axle with stainless steel to be sure it didn't happen again without question, on the spot.

    Even a boat anchor isn't that reliable.

    I never had the axle bolts back out, but the QR stubs can come loose. This is what happened that led to the axle breaking. I put a dab of locktite on them nowadays.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAKEtheDOG
    I believe he's running Paragons. They ARE the tensioners.

    DD - Did you try the drop of blue lock-tite as Rody suggested?
    Oops - I thought the picture in 'grumpyone' was his bike.

    Blue locktite and reef on it a little more.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PW&Co
    Sorry to bump this thread back up, I have not heard or seen our bolts back out before. If this problem continues please let me know. If you are doing heavy ridding you might want to upgrade to a set of out larger washers as was posted earlier.



    I talk to one of our engineers about your adjustable rear drop out and depending on the aluminum, the smooth washer that you show in your picture may allow the bolt to loosen up as that part of the frame flexes.

    Regards,

    Garrett

    Phil Wood & Co.
    This is the bike I thought it was and tensioners WOULD help this bike. Keeping the bolts from doing two jobs and they will be less likely to back out. This frame looks to be titanium as well and it seems be more difficult to keep things tight in ti, IME.

  34. #34
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    loctite- i bought it, but didn't put it on until after (the last occurrence) because i was problem free after putting some big time torque on it.

    pw- the best stuff there is. i am not, in any way, saying this is a PW issue. this is physics and my one personal maintenance/safety issue that i thought others might find interesting/useful because i know we all must obey by the same laws of physics and some of you probably have similar maintenance habits.

  35. #35
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    Phil Wood replacement bearings

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt_Diggler
    8 hour race saturday- after 81 miles and 12,000 feet of climbing the bolts are tight. all i can think was that i just didn't tighten them down well. i doubt i'll have the problem again.

    agree that PW is the bomb. i have had nothing but the best from their products and great interactions with their service staff. i have PW BBs is my single speed, track, cyclocross, and road bikes, and one other set of their hubs. i've also used their bearing to replace outboard bearings on raceface bottom brackets. i heart PW.
    My RF 180mm Dues X cranks eat the RF Dues bottom brackets. I just keep replacing the the complete BB and have changed my trail bike to the RF DH BB. Are Phil's bearings stronger because they about the same price as replacing the whole BB?
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  36. #36
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    yes. last much longer the a whole new RF BB will too. have someone who knows PW do it and has all the tools to ensure its done well. also, you might find facing the BB on your frame helps keep out water and dust which is hard no all bearings.

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