Help me beat this dead horse. SE/Dawes/RL?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Help me beat this dead horse. SE/Dawes/RL?

    SE Stout (2009 Red from BD), Dawes Bullseye (same as Deadeye w/bb5's), 2008 Redline Monocog Flite (used green one). All the same price, $350.

    I have scoured the various forums for information about these bikes, and looked for comparisons as much as I could.

    The Redline seems like it might be the best out of the bunch, but it's a 15, and I would probably fit a 17 better in that bike. The geometry doesn't seem all that different between the 15 and the 17 with the exception of about half an inch in the TT. As long as I could get the seatpost high enough for good leg extension would it screw with the ride to put a longer stem on it?

    The Bullseye and the Stout are reportedly the same bike in geometry and build with the differences in the discs on the Bullseye and the looptail frame on the SE. Is there anything compelling about either one of these bikes aside from the obvious differences I've mentioned? If not, I don't know if I love discs enough to weigh that over the SE nostalgia.

    I don't mind getting a used bike, but I wonder about the size on the RL, as well as a couple of posts that I read about that year's downtube breaking 5" below the head tube. It seems like that failure was only on that year's version, so it was either a random thing on a particular run of frames, or it's something that was resolved the following year.

    So in short, the RL may be too small, the Stout, and Bullseye could be had in my size, and aren't very different. If I've missed something, or if someone knows of a deal that puts a better bike into my very limited price range, let me know.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

  2. #2
    nothing to see here
    Reputation: Stevob's Avatar
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    Shop around for another second hand bike that fits. There's better value for money in a nicer second hand frame than in the Bullseye or Stout. Keep looking.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for chiming in. I am in no real hurry, but I love riding my current SS, and I would love to move up to the bigger wheel. I have an old Slingshot that I really haven't ridden in a few years, and in the last year it has sat idly while I have been taking my old school Diamondback Response SS conversion. My DB has Truetemper CrMo tubes. So, I guess my point is that I don't need a high end bike to feel good about being on the trail.

    There is a possibility that I could trade my Slingshot for an IRO model 19. The IRO seems to be built out similar, if not maybe a little nicer than the three bikes I mentioned before. Would that seem like a decent trade, or would it be better to sell the slingshot and wait for the right 29er?

  4. #4
    ilmfat
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    +1 get a better bike used. if the RL were your size, i would say definitely. i had 3 deadeyes. i was not impressed. love the 29er, hate the deadeye.

    id say go for the iro/slingshot trade. sounds like a good bet.

    or if you have a well stocked parts bin, build your own. origin-8 scout frames can be had cheap. you can get a set of handbuilt wheels from universalcycles for 166 (shimano on sx44), plus they have $18 tires. add a salsa grande fork. ur lookin at closer to 500, but itd all be new. im wishin i woulda got a better 29er to begin with. i now have a jabberwocky, a scout (on the way) and one left over deadeye.

  5. #5
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    I've been thinking about a scout. It seems to get pretty good reviews. If I go that route I think I can put my hands on a Surly Instigator fork for under $50, and a lightly used wheelset with Surly hubs, and Delgado rims for around $100 w/tires. That along with parts from the bin should have me rolling along for under $400. That may be the best option, some new, some used.

    Where are you getting your Scout? I've found a couple of places that have prices under $200 w/shipping. If there's a place that has a good price as well as good customer service that would be my preference, even if it's not the lowest price.

    I'll look into the IRO trade. It's a small IRO, but the TT is 24". Based on the TT I'm not worried about the fit. It should be just about right with a 90mm stem.

  6. #6
    ilmfat
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    my lbs is getting the scout for me. hes giving me the frame pretty much at cost cause i took him a kilo wt i couldnt sell. he told me he liked it, but didnt have the funds, so i said screw it and gave it to him. never hurts to get points with the lbs.

    if you got a good deal on forks and wheels lined up, id say go for the scout. cheapest deal goin on a 29er SS frame. ill send you my deadeye frame for 50 bucks plus shipping if you want. but youd be better served by a scout. id go lbs, if it was me. online might save you 20 or 30 bucks, but some sites are not "authorized dealers" (one of the reviewers had a warranty issue).

    looks like every bike shop within 25 miles is an origin-8 dealer, so take your pick.

  7. #7
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    I'm looking at all of the options at this point. There's a 19" 2009 Unit frame on CL now for under 2 bills with fork, handlebar, and stem. He says it has a hundred miles on it, and the pix look clean. Anyway that's a larger size than I've ridden in a few years, but according to the competitive cyclist fit calculator it's in my fit range.

    What size is your Deadeye frame? What steered you towards the Scout? I have to say I like short chainstays, and the Scout would be a good fit in that regard. My current DB has short chainstays, and feels like a big BMX bike. I built up a Trek 930 (long chain stays) as a SS awhile back and quickly went back to the DB. The Trek is a nicer frame in every way you would measure it, except that the ride is not as lively. So, I went back to the cheap DB frame and I have a shiny US made Trek frame hanging from my ceiling.

  8. #8
    nothing to see here
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    Stay away from the 2009 Unit. I had 2 of them, from new, and both frames cracked at identical spots in the sliders. My LBS then upgraded me to a 2010 Unit frame, which has the cracking problem sorted.

    FYI...


    edit...I'm no clyde. 5'6" and ~148lb.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  9. #9
    US Soccer
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    I love my Dawes.....

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob
    Stay away from the 2009 Unit. I had 2 of them, from new, and both frames cracked at identical spots in the sliders. My LBS then upgraded me to a 2010 Unit frame, which has the cracking problem sorted.

    FYI...


    edit...I'm no clyde. 5'6" and ~148lb.
    Good to know about the Unit dropouts. I hadn't heard about that problem before, but two times with the same year it's more than coincidence. I don't like the idea of buying a used frame and then facing this kind of problem. The Unit seems to have had its share of problems. I read that the earlier ones had tubes breaking, and now the 09's have the dropout cracking.

    I'm going to see if the IRO trade works out, if not the Scout is looking better and better.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyName1sMud
    I love my Dawes.....
    Maybe the Deadeye isn't such a bad deal after all. What is it that you love about it?

  11. #11
    beware the grammar police
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtrops


    Maybe the Deadeye isn't such a bad deal after all. What is it that you love about it?
    other than being a tad on the heavy side it has great geometry *(for me) and it lifts the front wheel easy... it climbs *(for me) like a mountain goat with ben-gay rubbed on its butt....

    and it lends itself well to upgrades..... i am uber happy with mine and wouldn't trade it.... *(and i can have pretty much any bike i want due to a very loving wife who bikes with me)....


    owner and founder of www.moto-rush.com motorcycling community

  12. #12
    Two Headed Boy
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    Love the Dawes here! I have a Bullseye and love the Geometry, very stable while remaining nimble and quick through the technical stuff. The brakes are a pain to setup, but once you get them tuned in......aka shimmed or filed.........they work flawlessly! It is a bit of a tank,but hey its 350 new!!! I had 500 to work with since my GF Paragon was stolen off my car at a gas station a while back, and I don't think I could have done better with it.

    No regrets here,
    Nick

  13. #13
    ilmfat
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    the deadeye is perfectly servicable. but you could do better for not much more.

    the tubes are larger and more manipulated. might as well get aluminum. no "steel" ride.

    the wheels suck.

    the cranks heavy.

    all these things can be overcome. but after upgrades, your in scout territory. and resale on DD's sucks.

    good enough that im gonna run it. bad enough im always gonna want more.

    hence the jabber and scout.

    * http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...62#post7882962 post # 1081.

  14. #14
    ilmfat
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    my DD is a 17".

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...82#post7987882 #1259.

    the builds not quite done yet. hopefully the end of next week. u could spend 80 bucks for my frame, but ill just turn around and order a scout. (plus i think i wanna keep it.)

  15. #15
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    Scout it is.

    I'm picking up the Surly/Delgado wheelset today, and I'm going to my LBS to order the Scout. The KM fork (not instigator) has a short steerer, and after a little more research I think I would like the ride of a Voodoo Zombie fork better anyway. The Zombie will cost $20 more, but that's really nothing in the end.

    Thanks for the help in the decision on bargain basement SS 29er's. I'll end up with a nice ride for $350, and it'll be nice to clean out the parts bin a bit.

  16. #16
    ilmfat
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    that voodoo forks a beast. i had one on my first SS, a 26er. id scrounge the change for a salsa, if it were me.

    but it is good enough to get you on the trail. plus v-mount, so you wouldnt need to buy discs right away.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilmfat
    that voodoo forks a beast. i had one on my first SS, a 26er. id scrounge the change for a salsa, if it were me.

    but it is good enough to get you on the trail. plus v-mount, so you wouldnt need to buy discs right away.

    Good to know. I haven't bought the fork yet, so I still have plenty of options. The (2) reviews on mtbr talk about how plush, not my words, the zombie is. Is it possible that it feels more compliant with the larger wheel? There really need to be more reviews of that fork to balance things out a bit.

    Forks I've looked at:

    Tange Prestige 29er: Not much info about it. short 440 a/c.
    Voodoo Zombie: nifty brake compatibility solution, apparently somewhat of a jack hammer
    " " 500: Not much info, 500 a/c version of the zombie without the nifty brake options.
    Origin 8 Scout: Not much info found on this fork. Same paint as Scout.
    Dimension 29er: people seem to like it, but it's apparently stiff
    Salsa Cromoto: compliant ride. Some feel a lilttle loss of control in high speed braking.
    Surly KM: stiff
    Soul Cycles Dillinger: nice ride, is the G4 the same ride or not?
    Kona P2 29er: not much info.

    So, as much as I like prestige, the a-c is too short for the scout. I like the P2 but I'd like to know more about how it measures up. I have a P2 on my 26" SS, and I like it. I guess if people say it's a stiff fork the Zombie won't be a bad option.

    Chime in. Let me know what you know about these forks.

    Thanks,

    Jerry

  18. #18
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    It looks like I can pick up a KHS Solo One fork for $25. It was pulled off of a new bike at the shop, and never ridden. I like that it has posts for V's, so I'll be running the v's up front, and for now I have a bb5 sitting in my parts bin that will take up the rear.

    Unless I hear that this is a terrible fork I'm gonna go with it, and I should be taking the new Scout on the trail this weekend.

    I still have to work out the bottom bracket to get the chainline right, but that may be easier once I have the frame in hand.

  19. #19
    ilmfat
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    for 25 bucks you cant go wrong.

    im hopin minell be ride-able by friday still waiting on tasty bits, but i got enough spare parts to get it up and running.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilmfat
    for 25 bucks you cant go wrong.

    im hopin minell be ride-able by friday still waiting on tasty bits, but i got enough spare parts to get it up and running.
    It's funny that this whole thing started with 3 bikes, and I ended up with another one altogether. Thanks for your guidance. I did a bit of research before I asked, and I was originally very interested in the Scout, so you just kind've nudged me a bit.

  21. #21
    ilmfat
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    keep us posted yo. and keep an eye out for a scout build thread.

  22. #22
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    Picked up the frame today, and it's almost ridable. It's a 17, and it's a big bike. I have a 90mm stem on it, but it seems a little too close. I have an old, OLD, Thompson 120mm/90 degree stem that I may use. I'll make that decision after I get it on the road. The nice thing about faceplate stems.

    I have an old crank on it with the wrong 68mm bb, but it will work until I figure out what I want to do for a crankset. I'm thinking of using a BMX crankset with a chainwheel rather than a spider/chain ring. I think it would look cool, but I have to look into the weight. I like that the chainline is super easy to tweak, and that I can get a chainwheel in any tooth count that I'd be interested in without having to worry about the spider getting in the way.

    $325 into it, and so far:
    KHS fork
    Surly Torsion bar
    Generic 4 bolt 90mm stem
    Ritchey Logic headset
    Bontrager OE seatpost
    Surly new disc hubs
    Salsa Delgado rims
    DT spokes
    WTB Exiwolf 2.3 tires
    ACS Claws 20t freewheel
    KMC Z chain
    Avid BB5 rear brake
    Shimano Acera front V brake

    I'll post pix when I have it road worthy. I still have to put the chain on, and hook up the brakes.

  23. #23
    ilmfat
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    got my frame today too. itll be ride-able tomorrow, but not "done".

    itll still be waitin on a RF evolve stem, red hope collar , and a kalloy carbon post.

    pics manana.

  24. #24
    ilmfat
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    oh, and i "hear" (read) that the sram cranks have removable spiders. even the x-9 and possibly x-7.

    i dont know personally, as i dont like the pre-load bolt being the crank arm bolt also. i tried a stylo once.

    once.

  25. #25
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    Well, after getting a good look at it today it seems like the frame isn't straight.

    I redished the rear wheel to make sure that the rim was in the middle of the locknuts. When it's installed it sits with about 30mm's of space between the rim and the inside of the seatstay on the right, and about 20mm's on the left. It's only off by a couple of mm's between the chainstays, but when you look from the rear of the bike you can see that the wheel is not in line with the seat tube. Also, it looks like the top tube was welded off center to the left on the headtube. From the good reviews I've read about the frame I have to assume this is an anomaly. I'm going to bring it into my LBS to have them look at it, but I think a new frame will probably be coming my way.

    The top tube/head tube problem is weird, but as long as it's straight that won't bug me too much on a budget frame. The crooked rear triangle is more troublesome.

    It has a huge number of little aluminum guides. I think it is ready for just about any setup with the exception of rear V's. The only set of guides I can't understand is going down the left seatstay. Normally I would think they were for a disc brake, but because of the way the caliper is mounted on this frame the routing is along the left chainstay.

    After I get this all sorted out and have some trail miles behind me I'll consolidate all of my rambling posts into something more like a review. Right now it's more like eagerness to get it working right, and maybe a little venting the frustration of having a frame that's not quite up to speed.

  26. #26
    ilmfat
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    the rear spacing on mine is tight. like, i could prolly ride a road wheel tight.

    the stock tensioners are looking to be more trouble than theyre worth. im gonna see if the hardware store has anything that fits it thatll turn it into something like my jabbernuts.

    whelp, turns out they had something that "works", but i might see if lowes has something a little less "pretty sure its striiping my threads"-ish. not that i care too much. got red tensioners comin from isar any day now. prolly throw those on there. in a way, im glad im not diggin the screws.

    dont know if im gonna keep the color scheme on the scout. sometimes im feelin it, but im wondering if the tan tires wouldnt make any bike. funny, i hated the color when i got them, but on the bike? they look dope. got a red collar comin in, and im gonna try a white post.

    but im diggin it.

    definitely a heavy beast. but im pretty sure i really like the geo (never worried about geo too much before, but im gettin old), especially with the inverted mary. i almost gave that bar away too. its like they were made for each other.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Help me beat this dead horse.  SE/Dawes/RL?-scout.jpg  

    Help me beat this dead horse.  SE/Dawes/RL?-scout-2.jpg  


  27. #27
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    New Frame!

    I'm glad I got my frame from my LBS instead of an online site. It made the exchange much easier, and I'm sure I got better service from J&B. Apparently the rep went into the warehouse and hand picked the replacement frame to make sure I got a straight one. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened if it was from an online retailer.

    It looks like I'll be riding it this weekend. My new HBC chainwheel won't be here for a while, but it will still be nice to get it onto the trail.

  28. #28
    ilmfat
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    congrats on the good news man. lookin forward to pics of the build.
    crap! i gotta learn to climb. - 2011

    Climbing ain't so bad. - 2019

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