Full Suspension SS better?- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 68 of 68
  1. #1
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829

    Full Suspension SS better?

    To all:

    Still pondering this SS thing!

    Do you think Full Suspension SS with all the Bells and Whistles would benifit us better than the Non-Suspended or Hardtail?

    Not that Non-Suspended or Hardtails aren't great!

    If you look at the progression of Mt Biking we came from Non-Suspended through Hardtail and then Full Suspension. Although we still have a mix of all of the above.

    Ideas?
    Proformance Cycle
    [email protected]

  2. #2
    large member
    Reputation: mud'n'sweat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,838
    FS and SS do not agree very well. Even the FS frames made to be a SS like the Kona A do absolutely nothing but rob precious energy when hammering up a climb. Hard tail or rigid are the best ways to roll imho.

    Afterall, most of us ride SS because we grew tired of parts and gadgets constantly needing to be adjusted and maintained. SS is suppose to be pure, simple and effective in the eyes of many.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gatman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    578
    FS = need chain tensioner

    you will also get some bob when you stand up to climb

    most take there shock off of the front too, so I don't think anyone is needing the rear shock to make it "better"

    I have a FS with all the bells and whistles and it sits in the corner and collects dust while I take my HT SS out for rides.

  4. #4
    In the rear with the gear
    Reputation: RemfSS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    494
    SS and Rigid are a match made in heaven! If you want to get a little more performance, get a 29er SS Rigid!
    Get some Cycle Snack!

    Iron Horse MKIII
    Q Ball 29er
    Fetish Fixed-ation 69er

  5. #5
    ravingbikefiend
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,322
    Non suspended = rigid.

    My rigid has gears and my hardtail is the SS, these bikes work really well for me in these configurations and I guess one could convert a FS into a SS although SS'ing is as much about simplicity and freedom from things like suspensions as it is is building great performing bikes.

    I have another rigid coming and it may very well turn into another SS depending on which way I decide to go with the project... sometimes gears are a good thing too.
    I ride with 65'er...he's a mountain goat....But then again, we need to throw him in the mud and pack his pockets with lead shot before a scale will read him. - Psycho Mike

    -Environmental stickers don't mean shite when they are stuck to CARS!-

  6. #6
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Quote Originally Posted by mud'n'sweat
    FS and SS do not agree very well. Even the FS frames made to be a SS like the Kona A do absolutely nothing but rob precious energy when hammering up a climb. Hard tail or rigid are the best ways to roll imho.

    Afterall, most of us ride SS because we grew tired of parts and gadgets constantly needing to be adjusted and maintained. SS is suppose to be pure, simple and effective in the eyes of many.
    I see your point. I'm not trying to make the comparison between the two. I come from a motorcycle background, We still have Ridgid class in vintage motorcycle racing but, no one races it! Having seen 4 inches of travel with no jumping to the now, 13 inches of well dampened travel, and the aerial circus.

    I think SS could benifit from the correct suspension. I guess we are not there yet, but we will see SS using Suspension. Lockout and Stable Platforms. I know riding Non-suspended vs Hardtail the Hardtail is a plus on root infested trails. You can't unweight on downhill off-camber stuff on non-suspended. It causes your line to change to the very outside of the trail. The hardtail just sucks it up. Allowing more line selections. I know it's picky and it's only one situation.

    I guess I'm just throwing out ideas. I do see the pure nature of Singlespeeding
    Proformance Cycle
    [email protected]

  7. #7
    Nat
    Nat is online now
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Nat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    13,432
    No, no, no. There's nothing worse than standing up to grind up a hill and having the rear suspension mush all around.

    If I wanted stable platforms, linkage-this, virtual-that, I'd buy a full-blown gearie FS (which I will).

    Shift paradigms, not gears.

  8. #8
    local trails rider
    Reputation: perttime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    12,212
    For getting up rocky climbs FS SS might really make sense. I know that I can do better on some rocky climbs on my big hit FS than on my much lighter but still tough HT (gearies both).

    The main issue I can see is "chain growth" during suspension action. Most constructions have this and a pretty substantial spring loaded tensioner would be needed.

    The rear deraileur is a pretty vulnerable part, so getting rid of it would be great news, unless I had to replace it with something equally vulnerable.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: itsdoable's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,902
    FSSS:


    STSS


    HTSS


    R(igid)SS


    They all have thier places, and are all fun. Which is why re ride, right? There's nothing like conserving momentum with a FSSS on a fast techincal downhill - or picking your way through a rock garden on a rigid ride.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Just J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    6,588
    I think the Funk La Ruta would make a good FS SS...

  11. #11
    just 1 more
    Reputation: azjeff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,153
    Nice bunch of bikes. Isn't the last one a soft tail?
    Last edited by azjeff; 05-30-2011 at 08:30 PM.
    bikes, guns, dogs....perfect

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: calzonical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    750

    Dean Ace SS - FS

    deanASS.JPG
    <p>
    Here's my Dean Ace SS-d. I rode this setup Solo at 24 hrs in the Old Pueblo this year. Very smooth ride.

  13. #13
    Ouch, I am hot!
    Reputation: Dirdir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,764
    I have never used a FS single speed, so I really have no business making comments about it. However, I can speculate. Many people talk about the simplicity and pureness of single speeding. Fine, these people make good points. However, I really don't care about all that crap. I don't think FS and single speed is a good combo. On a single speed, the rider needs to stand up to climb all the time. Standing up and mashing up a climb on a FS, lockout or not, sucks and is not a very good way to climb hills. I almost never stand up on my FS. When I do, it is for brief moments in time. I stand up on my single speed all the time. Another reason I don't think it is a good idea is because I like the feel of direct power transfer a hardtail provides.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: itsdoable's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,902
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    ....I don't think FS and single speed is a good combo. On a single speed, the rider needs to stand up to climb all the time. Standing up and mashing up a climb on a FS, lockout or not, sucks and is not a very good way to climb hills. I almost never stand up on my FS. When I do, it is for brief moments in time. I stand up on my single speed all the time....
    I stand up to climb on my FSSS all the time. And I still have fun. Doesn't suck at all. Sprinting is OK too. Lets just say you can take alot more speed into the start of a rocky climb than I can when I'm rigid. And maintain it. But doing it rigid is fun too.

  15. #15
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    To all:

    Lot's of great pics and points being viewed!

    I remember in 1993 showing up at a xc mt bike race in Coburn, being told my Cannondale SV 3000 was a downhill bike. A few years later most others were riding Full Suspension.

    Just like all who hated Full Suspension claming weight and bobbing on uphills we all learned a diifferent way to ride. More sitting and less monkey motion was the reward. Enjoying the downhills also.

    So I see people are going back to 21 or 18 speeds or less. Shimano and Sram wanted us to buy, buy, buy, new, new, new, parts every year. 27 speeds is overkill. Soon we will see 30 speeds! How many people even know what gear they are in for a given situation? Do any of them know inches of gear? Remember BMX? We were all over that gearing stuff!

    So here we are:

    Singlespeed are the new------------NEW!

    Now if Shimano and Sram can figure a way to sell us more stuff to make Single speeds better!--------------------------Haaa! Lets see them pull that one off!
    Proformance Cycle
    [email protected]

  16. #16
    Combat Wombat
    Reputation: BrianU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,406

    I'm sure someone would think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    To all:

    Still pondering this SS thing!

    Do you think Full Suspension SS with all the Bells and Whistles would benifit us better than the Non-Suspended or Hardtail?

    Not that Non-Suspended or Hardtails aren't great!

    If you look at the progression of Mt Biking we came from Non-Suspended through Hardtail and then Full Suspension. Although we still have a mix of all of the above.

    Ideas?
    There always a market for people looking for an easier way to do things. I can remember a time when mopeds were popular, so anythings possible.

    Brian

  17. #17
    large member
    Reputation: mud'n'sweat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Just like all who hated Full Suspension claming weight and bobbing on uphills we all learned a diifferent way to ride. More sitting and less monkey motion was the reward. Enjoying the downhills also.
    Well, that is just it. The old "sit and spin" technique is not so common in the SS side of riding unless you are riding terrain that typically wouldn't necessitate FS anyhow.

  18. #18
    highly visible
    Reputation: GlowBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,179
    I could definitely see the benefits of FS for singlespeeders once we arrive at a system that (1) is indifferent to pedaling input yet (2) remains fully active to react to bumps, even in the out-of-the-saddle climbing, and (3) doesn't require a chain tensioner. The ability to react to bumps can dramatically improve traction, something we SSers can always use more of.

    We are NOT there yet, but I think it may eventually be possible. I'll be demoing several different FS systems over the next few weeks. Like Nat, I plan to buy these for geared purposes ... BUT I am interested to see how the latest designs handle standing climbs.

    Although I like simplicity and low maintenance, so-called "purity" is a meaningless abstraction to me. If I could have a FS SS that improves my climbing traction without wasting too much precious energy, but still saves me from the skipping, squeaky chains that are inevitable in wet conditions with derailers and tensioners ... hell yeah, sign me up!
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

  19. #19
    ravingbikefiend
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    2,322
    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    To all:

    So I see people are going back to 21 or 18 speeds or less. Shimano and Sram wanted us to buy, buy, buy, new, new, new, parts every year. 27 speeds is overkill. Soon we will see 30 speeds! How many people even know what gear they are in for a given situation? Do any of them know inches of gear? Remember BMX? We were all over that gearing stuff!
    There's a crapload of hype that I don't buy into and I don't own more than one bike with more than 21 gears. That is simply because I need the available 11-34 wide range to handle everything from towing a trailer and be able to run out at high speed. This gives the bike a 28 to 114 gear inch range.

    I have a new old bike coming with a 3 by 8 set on 700c wheels that will probably get some gear reduction therapy to bring it down to a 2 by 8... it is going to be used for a combination high speed commuting and fast xc trail use so some high gearing (100 gear inches) and a little range for off road riding is a must. Mind you...keeping the 3 by 8 would give me 130 gear inches on the top end of things which would make long downhills a great deal of fun and downright scary.
    I ride with 65'er...he's a mountain goat....But then again, we need to throw him in the mud and pack his pockets with lead shot before a scale will read him. - Psycho Mike

    -Environmental stickers don't mean shite when they are stuck to CARS!-

  20. #20
    local trails rider
    Reputation: perttime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    12,212

  21. #21
    local trails rider
    Reputation: perttime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    12,212
    I have some rocky climbs where I do better with my Yeti AS-X at 34/21 gearing than with my Banshee Scirocco at 32/21, both gearies at the moment, both out of the saddle.

    I just had to figure out what it would take to make the AS-X single speed.
    Looks like the BB to dropout distance would vary about 1.2 inches through the suspension stroke. I suppose that means that I would need a tensioner that can take up about 2.5 inches (+ a bit) of slack. Does that sound about right?

    A Rohloff tensioner could certainly cope with that. I wonder how much slack tensioners like Surly Singleator and DMR Tension Seeker2 can handle.

  22. #22
    Category Winner
    Reputation: teamdicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,045
    Not mine, but my friends. He built it up as an experiment for the Wilderness 101. He has been riding it ever since. It's a single speed monster truck.
    5" up front and 4-6" adjustable in the rear.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by teamdicky; 10-12-2006 at 04:29 AM.
    WWW.TEAMDICKY.COM

    I get paid 3 every time I post on MTBR.

  23. #23
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Quote Originally Posted by BrianU
    There always a market for people looking for an easier way to do things. I can remember a time when mopeds were popular, so anythings possible.

    Brian
    Holy God-------------------MOPEDS!

    Now we need 13 inch travel mopeds!

    I'm on it-------------------------building one today. I think I will put 185mm cranks on it for the pedalling sections.

    How about a KX 500 2 stroke motor? Got any for sale?

    No if I can just find a FAT CHICK

    Hee Hee Hee Hee Ya YA you said MOPED
    Proformance Cycle
    [email protected]

  24. #24
    Combat Wombat
    Reputation: BrianU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    1,406

    You might be on to something there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Holy God-------------------MOPEDS!

    Now we need 13 inch travel mopeds!

    I'm on it-------------------------building one today. I think I will put 185mm cranks on it for the pedalling sections.

    How about a KX 500 2 stroke motor? Got any for sale?

    No if I can just find a FAT CHICK

    Hee Hee Hee Hee Ya YA you said MOPED
    Paint it pink and you will probably sell a million.

    Brian

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bikeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    3,971
    I think there is some merit to a FS SS, depending on your terrain and wishes. I don't think there exists a perfect FS design for singlspeeding, but if I were to get one, I think the IBIS Bow Ti design would be it. No chain growth issues, the suspension stiffens up when standing for the climbs, and no pivots to worry about. If only I had an extra couple grand lying around, I would try it out!

    itsdoable: Is that your Bow Ti? If so, I am VERY interested in how it rides.

    Thanks,
    Mark

  26. #26
    Hoops - Big and Small
    Reputation: Crash_Burn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,083

    Bells and Whistles

    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Do you think Full Suspension SS with all the Bells and Whistles would benifit us better than the Non-Suspended or Hardtail?
    I enjoy riding my Big Single, it's a steel frame along with the wheels and down tube wire/spring, I can go pretty fast and not get beat up to much.

    This is mainly my exercise bike when all I have is an hour or so to put in.

    The BB does move a bit - I notice more movement in high speed G out situations.

    I run it as a Dingle, the foothills where I ride can pretty steep in sections.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  27. #27
    highly visible
    Reputation: GlowBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,179
    I agree, the SlingShot or a compliant softtail are our best SS options so far, if we want to improve traction and ground tracking compared with hardtails.
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation: itsdoable's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,902
    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    itsdoable: Is that your Bow Ti? If so, I am VERY interested in how it rides.
    Yes, it is my '97 Bowti, and in it's life, it's had 8-speed derailleurs, Rohloff Speedhub, various disc adapters, and it's been a FSSS fot the last 4 years. The ride is good, it's designed for a short travel fork (in '97 it was called a long travel fork!) which suits SS'ing, and the rear suspension move less than most front forks when standing, even with the OEM Fox Alps-5 shock (which still works!). I think it rode best with a Stratos ID valved FOX fork, but the old SID-XC I currently have on it works well too. The most common question about it is flex, and it is noticable... when you are running a true skinny (log ride without slats), there is a 'vague' on the rear wheel compared to a hardtail, you're not sure where the rear wheel is on the log unlike a hardtail.

    Any of the high pivot URT's (Catamount, Shwinn) make decent tensioner-less SS's. The Current Haro Sonic frames would be nice too, tensionerless-able and they have a platform that allows them to be sprinted efficiently - have not tried one yet (hard to fine here) but I sure would like to.

    We're doing a 6-hour epic ride this weekend, but I'll probably take a rigid SS (not becuase it's more efficient, but because 4 of us have agreed to ride SS & rigid - because it's fun.

  29. #29
    In the rear with the gear
    Reputation: RemfSS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    494
    How do you account for the slack in the chain when moving to the lower cog up front on your Dingle?
    Get some Cycle Snack!

    Iron Horse MKIII
    Q Ball 29er
    Fetish Fixed-ation 69er

  30. #30
    Hoops - Big and Small
    Reputation: Crash_Burn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,083
    I use it in two settings

    34x22 and 40x16, basically a climbing gear and a commuter gear.

    since they use the same amount of teeth 56 the brake pads end up on the rim in both settings.

    It takes me maybe a minute to switch gears. Loosen quick release, Loosen fork dropouts, move chain. Tighten everything up and go.

    I'am using an aluminum cog on the 22, Endless Cog seems to be wearing pretty good.

    Probably time to rotate the drivetrain 90 or 180 degrees to even out the wear.

  31. #31
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    Quote Originally Posted by itsdoable
    Yes, it is my '97 Bowti, and in it's life, it's had 8-speed derailleurs, Rohloff Speedhub, various disc adapters, and it's been a FSSS fot the last 4 years. The ride is good, it's designed for a short travel fork (in '97 it was called a long travel fork!) which suits SS'ing, and the rear suspension move less than most front forks when standing, even with the OEM Fox Alps-5 shock (which still works!). I think it rode best with a Stratos ID valved FOX fork, but the old SID-XC I currently have on it works well too. The most common question about it is flex, and it is noticable... when you are running a true skinny (log ride without slats), there is a 'vague' on the rear wheel compared to a hardtail, you're not sure where the rear wheel is on the log unlike a hardtail.

    Any of the high pivot URT's (Catamount, Shwinn) make decent tensioner-less SS's. The Current Haro Sonic frames would be nice too, tensionerless-able and they have a platform that allows them to be sprinted efficiently - have not tried one yet (hard to fine here) but I sure would like to.

    We're doing a 6-hour epic ride this weekend, but I'll probably take a rigid SS (not becuase it's more efficient, but because 4 of us have agreed to ride SS & rigid - because it's fun.

    Just wondering if the GT I -Drive fits into this?
    Proformance Cycle
    [email protected]

  32. #32
    highly visible
    Reputation: GlowBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,179
    Quote Originally Posted by Crash_Burn
    I use it in two settings

    34x22 and 40x16, basically a climbing gear and a commuter gear.

    since they use the same amount of teeth 56 the brake pads end up on the rim in both settings.

    It takes me maybe a minute to switch gears. Loosen quick release, Loosen fork dropouts, move chain. Tighten everything up and go.
    Nice. Dinglespeeds are awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by itsdoable
    The Current Haro Sonic frames would be nice too, tensionerless-able and they have a platform that allows them to be sprinted efficiently - have not tried one yet (hard to fine here) but I sure would like to.
    Wow, wasn't aware of that. Does sound promising. We'll have to see how people feel about this design after another year or two and the initial hype has worn off a bit more.
    Last edited by GlowBoy; 10-13-2006 at 04:02 PM.
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: itsdoable's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,902
    Quote Originally Posted by Proformance Cycle
    Just wondering if the GT I -Drive fits into this?
    Only if you remove the 'dog-bone' and use the bb shell as an ecentric but putting a set-screw or somesort of clamp to prevent it from moving. Then it's a low pivot URT. Someone did this a while ago (posted in MTBR) but the frame broke shortly after

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    545
    Try a Thudbuster
    "The man is richest whose pleasures are the cheapest" Henry David Thoreau (obviously a single speeder)

    "...everytime you throw something away your load gets lighter..."

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    61

    Good job! Fs Ss

    I recently converted my Epic to SS and I won't be going back to gears. I rode it for the first time over the weekend, at the Corba event, and it rides great. No problems w/ dropping a chain and the suspension worked great, the bike seemed a lot faster and easier to ride. I demo'd a S-works stumpjumper as well and the stumpy was not nearly as quick or easier to ride w/ gears.

    The only issue was the gearing I rode 32 x 17, worked great on flatter trails, I need to change to 32x20 for steeper trails.

    The only thing to is try it and see if it works for you.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  36. #36
    Exclusively Single
    Reputation: long hazy daze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    673
    IMO, FS circumvents the essence and purity of SS. I suppose SS means something different to everyone, but to myself, and many others, it's about the simplicity, which is drastically negated by FS.

    Not to mention that with a FS, a healthy percentage of your power input will be absorbed by the suspension, and not delivered to the rear wheel resulting in a gross loss of pedaling efficiency. And if you have to run multiple chain tensioners, there will be no improvement in drivetrain efficiency over the pulleys of a rear mech.

    I suppose it comes down to what you're after, purity and simplicity, or a certain "cool factor".

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    61

    ... and if we just ... full suspension ss is better

    I don't know what everyones issues are with mtn biking, I ride because its enjoyable to me. I ride singlespeed because I like the simplicity of it; just riding. If i choose to use a hardtail, rigid or FS, it doesn't matter. I enjoy mtn biking, why does it matter how I ride the bike I ride. I have a rigid steel SS which enjoy riding as well, but incomparison to the 1 ride on my FS SS, it is not as fast, effecient nor climbs as well.

    As I have stated, I have 1 ride on the bike, the gearing will change as well as the chain tensioners. To fully understand how the bike wants to be ridin you evaluate all options; 2 chain tensioners, 1 chain tensioners and no chain tensioners, which ever has the best ride will be the set up I choose. Chain tensioners don't effect the the effeciency of the drivetrain, they keep the chain on the rear cog and front chainring the same way a sliding drop out does. And a well designed suspension will provide more power to the rear wheel not absorb pedal effort, a poor design bobs a well designed suspension does not.

    So yes SS means something different to everybody. I ride mtn bikes because its enjoyable to me, I ride SS mtn bikes because they are infinitly more enjoyable and the purest form of riding, just you and the mtn.

    And the Mtn doesn't care what you ride.

  38. #38
    Exclusively Single
    Reputation: long hazy daze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    673
    Quote Originally Posted by lakerfan
    Chain tensioners don't effect the the effeciency of the drivetrain.....
    They do add friction, not only from the interaction with the moving chain, but also the bearings or bushings in the tensioner rollers create additional friction against which the rollers must rotate. This all adds up to a loss of efficiency, though it may be negligible, depending on setup and the quality of the tnsoiner(s). I do know from experience that I can see a big differece in drag between a single tensioner and no tensioner on the same bike when spinning the cranks backwards.

    But yeah, at the end of the day, so long as you're happy riding the bike that you ride, that's all that really matters. It's simply not possible for everything to be ideal to everybody.

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    545
    There are full suspension bikes running single chainlines:
    Motorbikes don't use tensioners, and they don't have "no growth" chainlines.
    Moulton have been making full suspension bikes for 40 years and don't use tensioners.

    Has anyone tried one of the full suspension frames on single speed without tensioners? I think one of the recent Giants (with almost constant chain stay length throughout the suspension movement) may be a good possibility - especially if chainguides are used.
    "The man is richest whose pleasures are the cheapest" Henry David Thoreau (obviously a single speeder)

    "...everytime you throw something away your load gets lighter..."

  40. #40
    local trails rider
    Reputation: perttime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    12,212
    I think people have different goals here:

    - the SS/rigid purists
    - people looking for more comfort (maybe a suspension seat post will do)
    - people looking for SS with the rear suspension advantages for rough trails (going up or down)
    - people sick and tired of smashing the rear DR on rocks and wondering if their existing FS bikes might work out in SS mode

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    98
    I ride the Kona A witch is the ss fs frame. The piviot is around the bb and has sliding dropouts. There is no chain slack in compresion. Like said by someone above ican carrry more speed into a climb, I have to work a little harder on the climb cause of the extra weight but the downhills are way more fun on it than my inbreed. The major bennifit comes on the longer races usually around mile 15 my lower back gets very stiff and sore so the next 10-15 miles are very painfully on the ht. My first race on the fs was a 40 mile one and I noticed on mile 35 my back was still fine. I've had the A since aug and i haven't been on the inbreed since.

    P.S.
    the inbreed is not rigid
    "Never shall innocent blood be shed. Yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god."

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: itsdoable's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,902
    Quote Originally Posted by a poster above
    IMO, FS circumvents the essence and purity of SS. I suppose SS means something different to everyone, but to myself, and many others, it's about the simplicity, which is drastically negated by FS.
    The most complicated thing that fails regularly on a ride is the derailleur, weither it is worn cogs, worn chain, adjustment, or a stick in the derailleur... We've had shocks leak on a ride, but no more often than a fork failure - which is pretty rare. SS may mean simplicity, but it's also fun, so it really doesn't matter what you ride.



    Quote Originally Posted by a poster above
    Not to mention that with a FS, a healthy percentage of your power input will be absorbed by the suspension, and not delivered to the rear wheel resulting in a gross loss of pedaling efficiency.
    This "healthy percentage" is probably no more than that lost in a gearie drivetrain. And if you race, it's made up for by the fact that you can complete a technical loop faster than on a hardtail. I've never observed a "Gross loss of pedaling efficiency" between rigid, hardtails, FS, XC, FR, etc bikes. What bikes do you ride?



    Quote Originally Posted by a poster above
    And if you have to run multiple chain tensioners, there will be no improvement in drivetrain efficiency over the pulleys of a rear mech.
    No chain tensioner in any of my FSSS's (pics above). Not because of the negligible losses, but because one of the main reasons for SS'ing (for me) is to get ride of that dangly bit that breaks off when it gets up close and personal to a stick.

  43. #43
    gringo-fied facsimiles
    Reputation: surly_an_instigator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    399

    No good a dingle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crash_Burn
    I enjoy riding my Big Single, it's a steel frame along with the wheels and down tube wire/spring, I can go pretty fast and not get beat up to much.

    This is mainly my exercise bike when all I have is an hour or so to put in.

    The BB does move a bit - I notice more movement in high speed G out situations.

    I run it as a Dingle, the foothills where I ride can pretty steep in sections.
    come now....... you have two gears and are posting on a single speed thread, and since you swap gears 4-5 times in one ride, I dont think it qualifies as a true single speed, why not suffer with the rest of us.
    http://www.bradwaltonphoto.com
    "you slow whitted rectal beltch" -sp

  44. #44
    Hoops - Big and Small
    Reputation: Crash_Burn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,083

    Dingle Wuss

    Quote Originally Posted by surly_an_instigator
    come now....... you have two gears and are posting on a single speed thread, and since you swap gears 4-5 times in one ride, I dont think it qualifies as a true single speed, why not suffer with the rest of us.
    You are absolutely right - I totally wussed out and was non-committal to the single gear.

    I poached this idea from White Ind. Dos Eno and Double/Double. So I guess it'a a White Ghetto Mod, wait that did'nt come out right.

    It's in my make up I have to [email protected] things up and be different.

    In my defense, I do commute with this bike so I need a gear I can hit 20mph on.

  45. #45
    Not a regular
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,079
    Quote Originally Posted by itsdoable
    The Current Haro Sonic frames would be nice too, tensionerless-able and they have a platform that allows them to be sprinted efficiently - have not tried one yet (hard to fine here) but I sure would like to.
    Yes, it works nicely. I ran the original prototype Sonix frame as an SS for quite a spell and raced Sea Otter in '05 on it as a single speed set-up.

  46. #46
    blet drive
    Reputation: JUNGLEKID5's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    2,166
    Quote Originally Posted by lakerfan
    I recently converted my Epic to SS and I won't be going back to gears. I rode it for the first time over the weekend, at the Corba event, and it rides great. No problems w/ dropping a chain and the suspension worked great, the bike seemed a lot faster and easier to ride. I demo'd a S-works stumpjumper as well and the stumpy was not nearly as quick or easier to ride w/ gears.

    The only issue was the gearing I rode 32 x 17, worked great on flatter trails, I need to change to 32x20 for steeper trails.

    The only thing to is try it and see if it works for you.
    what is the chain tensinor on the top of your chain and nice convert by the way.
    Save a tree & wipe your butt with an owl.
    Thank your local Sierra Club.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    61
    The bottom tensioner is a Soulcraft and the top is a Kore i picked up on ebay.

  48. #48
    What's that smell?
    Reputation: phxartboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    468
    Dual chains are a huge plus too.

    My sexy beast:

  49. #49
    local trails rider
    Reputation: perttime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    12,212
    Huh?
    looks ... different. Does it have a practical purpose?

  50. #50
    In the rear with the gear
    Reputation: RemfSS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    494
    Looks like the front wheel has cogs, too. I know a dude who rides a pugesly geary but keeps his front wheel with a cog in it in case the rear der bites the dust.
    Get some Cycle Snack!

    Iron Horse MKIII
    Q Ball 29er
    Fetish Fixed-ation 69er

  51. #51
    What's that smell?
    Reputation: phxartboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    468
    Just a burly Phil Wood up front, but no cogs and it was done for bling purposes only.

  52. #52
    In the rear with the gear
    Reputation: RemfSS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    494
    Quote Originally Posted by phxartboy
    Just a burly Phil Wood up front, but no cogs and it was done for bling purposes only.
    Besides the extra weight, front and rear cogs and the chain, is there any advantage in this set up?
    Get some Cycle Snack!

    Iron Horse MKIII
    Q Ball 29er
    Fetish Fixed-ation 69er

  53. #53
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
    Reputation: DeeEight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,862
    Quote Originally Posted by long hazy daze
    They do add friction, not only from the interaction with the moving chain, but also the bearings or bushings in the tensioner rollers create additional friction against which the rollers must rotate.
    A 1% loss I can easily manage to deal with given the gains I make with having a rear wheel that'll move over a bump better, and thus prevent loss of momentum.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  54. #54
    What's that smell?
    Reputation: phxartboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    468
    I don't race. But if I did and I was in "the big race" and Tinker and Lance were a few yards behind me as we approached the finish line where Natalie Portman was waiting to stick her tounge down my throat and I was pedalling harder than I ever had and just then, I break a chain but I am able to continue my stride unfettered with my bonus extra chain. Victory & Natalie would be mine and Lance and Tinker would both pinch flat on the chain I left on the trail.

    The End

  55. #55
    ^ The Trail Starts Here ^
    Reputation: Proformance Cycle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    829
    South Paw-----------------BABY!
    Proformance Cycle
    [email protected]

  56. #56
    Dud Rocket
    Reputation: peterhaile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    42

    2 chains

    How is this done? Is that bike fixed?
    How did you get 2 freewheels spinning the same direction.

    I have a Lenzsport revelation which is basically the same as a kona a

    Are there any advantages other than looks.
    Race like a Pee Horse

  57. #57
    blet drive
    Reputation: JUNGLEKID5's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    2,166
    that kona is siiccckk
    Save a tree & wipe your butt with an owl.
    Thank your local Sierra Club.

  58. #58
    blet drive
    Reputation: JUNGLEKID5's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    2,166
    that kona is siccckkk
    Save a tree & wipe your butt with an owl.
    Thank your local Sierra Club.

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    126
    i think some of this crowd has a misconception about FS rigs of today.

    too many people tried their buddies trek Y11 back in 1995 and just saw that it was an energy sucking POS and have written off FS since.

    Right now I have a specialized epic, and depending on how you set the rear shock (you don't have to mess with it once you have it set to how you want it) it acts like a hard tail. It pedals like a hard tail, it is a hard tail, the back does not move........until you hit a bump from the bottom.

    You can seriously drop an elephant on the seat / pedals and it does not move (well the tires compress a little if you use a real elephany), but it only moves when you hit a bump from the bottom.

    I'll promise to ride a rigid SS on a trail (i know of one I can borrow) if someone who has written off FS due to personal experience promises to ride an EPIC that they can borrow. Shoot if you're in the midwest and ride a Medium/Large frame we can trade some time.

  60. #60
    blet drive
    Reputation: JUNGLEKID5's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    2,166
    i fell the same way mike
    Save a tree & wipe your butt with an owl.
    Thank your local Sierra Club.

  61. #61
    highly visible
    Reputation: GlowBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,179
    Quote Originally Posted by GlowBoy
    I could definitely see the benefits of FS for singlespeeders once we arrive at a system that (1) is indifferent to pedaling input yet (2) remains fully active to react to bumps, even in the out-of-the-saddle climbing, and (3) doesn't require a chain tensioner. The ability to react to bumps can dramatically improve traction, something we SSers can always use more of. ...

    I'll be demoing several different FS systems over the next few weeks. Like Nat, I plan to buy for geared purposes ... BUT I am interested to see how the latest designs handle standing climbs.
    Still trying to get access to most of those FS systems I planned to demo, but I did manage to get an extended demo on a Lenz Leviathan. Here's my extended demo report, and by the way I liked it enough to buy it. Again, I bought it primarily for geared purposes, but for much of the demo period I rode it like a singlespeed.

    One of the key points for me is that the bike I buy needs to be stable and efficient when I'm climbing out of the saddle, but of course still return some traction benefit. This bike delivers. By the way, I suspect that's true of many of the newer FS designs.

    It does require a tensioner, though, so it's still not ideal for SS. It doesn't appear to have that much chain "growth" under suspension movement, so I am wondering if it would be possible to SS the thing with a single pulley (spring loaded, of course) tensioner. Someday my curiosity will get the best of me and I'll have to experiment with this.
    "People like GloyBoy are deaf. They are partisan, intellectually lazy & usually very angry." -Jaybo

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    130

    FS SS Mantra here - I will answer any Q's I am able >

    I'm not going to say it's better, but I've had a heck of a good time on my FS Mantra Pro single speed over the last 2 years. It has 5" of rear wheel travel, weighs 24 lbs, and climbs better than any hardtail I have ridden. The pictures are about two years old - when I first built it. I am amazed at it's capability - being a TEN year old (1996) frame. I just recently raced it in the 24 hours of 9 mile in northern WI this July and was posting times of about 1:05 for the 14 mile course - 5-10 minutes faster per lap than similarly conditioned riders on FS 27 speeds.

    With that said, I've finally purhcased a dedicated SS frame - a Salsa Juan Solo for a complete SS build on which I plan to race this coming '07 season. The Mantra will continue to be my workhorse SS, though.

    <img src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/502/234699MANTRASSComplete1.jpg">

    .

    <img src="https://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/502/234699MantraSSRear.jpg">

  63. #63
    Keep on Rockin...
    Reputation: Miker J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,930

    FS goes with SS, like Dylan and....

    Brittany Spears.

  64. #64
    Just F##king Ride!
    Reputation: Flooredsubaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by peterhaile
    How did you get 2 freewheels spinning the same direction.
    The 20" or BMX crowd have Left Side Drive bikes, using one of these freewheels would make it so you could have a dual drive bike. (still have not figured out why you want one though)

  65. #65
    large member
    Reputation: mud'n'sweat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,838
    Quote Originally Posted by lakerfan
    I don't know what everyones issues are with mtn biking, I ride because its enjoyable to me. I ride singlespeed because I like the simplicity of it; just riding. If i choose to use a hardtail, rigid or FS, it doesn't matter. I enjoy mtn biking, why does it matter how I ride the bike I ride. I have a rigid steel SS which enjoy riding as well, but incomparison to the 1 ride on my FS SS, it is not as fast, effecient nor climbs as well.
    Laker, I think I replied to this thread awhile back saying I was against the SS FS idea. I do however see a little more reasoning in your set up. The Epic brain shock gives a stable platform when hammering out of the saddle. This in turn keeps you from sapping all the energy like you typically would experience on another SS FS design. While simplicity is key, drivetrains have always been my most aggrevating issue and main reason for going SS to begin with. If you can get rid of the drivetrain, have a stable platform out of the saddle AND throw in some compliance, all the power to you. I'd certainly give your epic a spin down the trail to see how well it works.

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    307
    I have been riding FS SS for more than a year on VPP bikes. VPP works perfect for out of the saddle climbs and seated mashing, no bob, no power loss. Best of both worlds.
    I built this Spider 29r SS last June and could not be more happy with the results. "mmmmmm VPP and single speed" (in homer Simpson voice)
    Attached Images Attached Images

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16
    I'm in the process of making a Yeti ASx into a single speed. I gotton some negativity on this. I currently trying to find a chain tensior that will work correctly. I played around on the bike with a shurley tensor and it almost worked (not enough chain wrap on the rear cog) The bike was a blast to ride in the short ammount of time I did ride it

  68. #68
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,799
    Quote Originally Posted by itsdoable
    The most complicated thing that fails regularly on a ride is the derailleur, weither it is worn cogs, worn chain, adjustment, or a stick in the derailleur...
    Interesting. I was going to point out that the most common problem keeping my bikes off the trail is rear shock maintenance. OK, I did just mention it.

    Case in point: My singlespeed is getting a lot of love lately because my rear shock is once again on a workbench over at Manitou being ignored by some guy pulling on a bong. Actually, Manitou is largley responsible for most of my SS experience.

    However, you are right: In terms of things that go wrong on a ride, I have broken a few derailleurs, and that plain stinks.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.