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  1. #1
    The walrus and carpenter
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    Fixies are irresponsible/rude!

    I posted this as a response to another thread. I thought it was worthy of it's own discussion. To save myself time I just copied and pasted this since it sums my thoughts up pretty well.

    We just finished Mardi Gras and if there's one thing I learned it's that I don't trust other people very much when I'm on my bike. I brought a bike downtown one day. Children, especially, are retarded around bikes. People run and step backwards all of a sudden and are generally complete unaware of their surroundings. If you don't want the general public to hate bikers as a whole then you are the only one responsible for being in total control. I'm tempted to go as far as to say that you need front and rear brakes when opperating in close proximity to people and cars. I think it's irresponsible and rude if you don't consider other people and other types of bikes in the equation. To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations.

    Not to mention the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake.
    About this crap about breaking cables. That's just stupid. In 12 years of hard off-road riding I've broken one cable and it was a derailleur cable that got ripped by a branch. Cables DO NOT just break in normal use.

  2. #2
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    You have never ridden a fixie I see... You have never ridden one well anyway.

  3. #3
    The walrus and carpenter
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    Ridden two actually. I don't care to ride one again.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Ridden two actually. I don't care to ride one again.
    I retract my first statement, and stand firmly with my second.

    This topic is old hat.

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    The fixie police are going to fix you

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    I posted this as a response to another thread. I thought it was worthy of it's own discussion. To save myself time I just copied and pasted this since it sums my thoughts up pretty well.

    We just finished Mardi Gras and if there's one thing I learned it's that I don't trust other people very much when I'm on my bike. I brought a bike downtown one day. Children, especially, are retarded around bikes. People run and step backwards all of a sudden and are generally complete unaware of their surroundings. If you don't want the general public to hate bikers as a whole then you are the only one responsible for being in total control. I'm tempted to go as far as to say that you need front and rear brakes when opperating in close proximity to people and cars. I think it's irresponsible and rude if you don't consider other people and other types of bikes in the equation. To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations.

    Not to mention the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake.
    About this crap about breaking cables. That's just stupid. In 12 years of hard off-road riding I've broken one cable and it was a derailleur cable that got ripped by a branch. Cables DO NOT just break in normal use.
    if it ain't a fixie or a 29er it ain't shet.

  6. #6
    The walrus and carpenter
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    My main point still stands. If you can't come to a complete stop every time without much effort then you shouldn't be around people or cars. Like I said the general public does not distinguish between different types of bikes. I am a freerider primarily (go ahead I can take it) and fairly active in the community. The key to successful advocacy is counting as many groups into your efforts as possible. To the general public there is no difference between mountainbikers and whatever they see on commercials and the news is what they will think of all of us. Fortunately for me FR is getting way more publicity than XC these days and for XC groups to be successful they need to consider us. So unless you can stop on a dime every time I don't want to be in the same category as you.

    I knew this thread would draw some outrage when I started it. I also know that it probably won't change anyone's mind who already rides a fixie. With any luck though it will keep someone considering them from taking the plunge.

    You can think whatever you want about my riding ability. I could care less. You haven't seen me ride.

  7. #7
    The walrus and carpenter
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    I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.

    BTW I've broken more chains than I can count.

  8. #8
    mikeb
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.

    BTW I've broken more chains than I can count.
    that's because nobody anywhere in these forums can reasonably justify riding a fixie in city traffic.

    it's a fad whose time will pass.

  9. #9
    The walrus and carpenter
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb
    that's because nobody anywhere in these forums can reasonably justify riding a fixie in city traffic.

    it's a fad whose time will pass.
    I would love for this to turn into a nice debate (really) but I suspect you're right. If I don't get any good responses I'll bump this thread myself every once in a while to keep it visible.

  10. #10
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    Sorry, what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    We just finished Mardi Gras and if there's one thing I learned it's that I don't trust other people very much when I'm on my bike. I brought a bike downtown one day. Children, especially, are retarded around bikes. People run and step backwards all of a sudden and are generally complete unaware of their surroundings. If you don't want the general public to hate bikers as a whole then you are the only one responsible for being in total control. I'm tempted to go as far as to say that you need front and rear brakes when opperating in close proximity to people and cars. I think it's irresponsible and rude if you don't consider other people and other types of bikes in the equation. To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations.

    Not to mention the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake.
    About this crap about breaking cables. That's just stupid. In 12 years of hard off-road riding I've broken one cable and it was a derailleur cable that got ripped by a branch. Cables DO NOT just break in normal use.
    Ok...you seem to want to rant/argue about something and have picked fixies as your target, and seem to be pro-disc brakes, but other than that what's your point??

    If you don't want to ride a fixie, sorry, but I didn't see you mention that someone had put a gun to your head to do so. As far as riding in a huge crowd of people walking, no kidding people are not aware of you! Have you ever walked around a mall at Christmas???? Nevermind trying to ride around one at a huge street party!!!

    People ride fixies for different of reasons....people ride mtn, rd, and cx bikes again for a different of reasons...so what? Good for you for trying a fixie out, twice...sorry to hear you didn't like it, I tried asparagus twice and didn't like it either time, doesn't mean people who eat it are rude or irresponsible...if yer looking to let off some steam, maybe go out for a bike ride.

  11. #11
    The walrus and carpenter
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyH
    Ok...you seem to want to rant/argue about something and have picked fixies as your target, and seem to be pro-disc brakes, but other than that what's your point??

    If you don't want to ride a fixie, sorry, but I didn't see you mention that someone had put a gun to your head to do so. As far as riding in a huge crowd of people walking, no kidding people are not aware of you! Have you ever walked around a mall at Christmas???? Nevermind trying to ride around one at a huge street party!!!

    People ride fixies for different of reasons....people ride mtn, rd, and cx bikes again for a different of reasons...so what? Good for you for trying a fixie out, twice...sorry to hear you didn't like it, I tried asparagus twice and didn't like it either time, doesn't mean people who eat it are rude or irresponsible...if yer looking to let off some steam, maybe go out for a bike ride.
    Funny
    I'm kinda wondering what your point is because mine's clear. Fixies should not be allowed on the street because they are bad for the image of all bikers and the safety of everyone else. That sums it up pretty well.

    I feel like I have enough info to think they are irresponsible.

    BTW at Mardi Gras most of the parties are confined to the sidewalks, yards, parking lots, parks, and bars. The street is 90% clear. The police are pretty good about watching that. That doesn't keep people from acting like tards when a bike gets within 20ft of them. Like a busy city street. Would you have prefered that I use a college campus analogy? I also have lots of experience on bikes on busy city streets at other times. I drew the same conclusion. I just thought that was a relevant example since it was recent. (this past weekend-yesterday)

    FYI Mobile is where Mardi Gras was invented NOT New Orleans.

    I also didn't see any rebuttals to either of my arguments. You seem to be the one ranting.
    Last edited by DeepSouthBuilder; 02-21-2007 at 09:20 PM.

  12. #12
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    What does this have to do with riding Singlespeeds/fixies offroad? THIS IS A MOUNTAIN BIKE message board, not a roadie board.

    Move this rant to www.roadbikereview.com please.
    "When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because it's always 20 years behind the times." Twain

  13. #13
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    Don't be hating. Hater.
    Retrograde Customs

  14. #14
    The walrus and carpenter
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    I haven't ranted once. Look the word up. My guess is everyone that is getting defensive is doing so because you can't come up with a good argument to what I've said. There is another pro-fixie thread a few down that no one dissented with.

    I didn't once say that I hated fixies. I just said they shouldn't be on the street. I love all bikes.
    There is an Urban/Park/DJ forum. What is a mountainbike these days anyway?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.
    LEARN how to ride fixie jack-a-smacka!

    If YOU can't handle fixie, then YOU should steer clear of fixies.

    I, on the otherhand, can ride ALL bikes well. I KNOW the capability of competancy on a fixie. Not everyone has that kind of skill sack ya hear?

    And remember. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean a little old lady can't do it.

    Skill up hunchbone.


  16. #16
    mikeb
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    fixies have no brakes

    the laws in the city of san francisco (where i live) require bicycles to have brakes.

    ride what you want but keep local laws in mind and don't start whining when you blow a stop sign on your brakeless hipster bike and the cops stop you.

    that said, many of the riders (i.e., clueless hipsters) i've seen on fixies in the city over the past few years ride through traffic like idiots.

    this is simply an observation from a man who has been commuting though traffic in san francisco since 1990.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    I would love for this to turn into a nice debate (really) but I suspect you're right. If I don't get any good responses I'll bump this thread myself every once in a while to keep it visible.
    No debate here, I took a test ride on a fixed pista today and I thought it was outstanding. There is definately something special about it and I look forward to adding one to my collection someday.

    who pooped in your cereal today......

  18. #18
    The walrus and carpenter
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29Colossus
    LEARN how to ride fixie jack-a-smacka!

    If YOU can't handle fixie, then YOU should steer clear of fixies.

    I, on the otherhand, can ride ALL bikes well. I KNOW the capability of competancy on a fixie. Not everyone has that kind of skill sack ya hear?

    And remember. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean a little old lady can't do it.

    Skill up hunchbone.

    Once again, You've never seen me ride.
    Chains break pretty often. Knowing how to ride one means nothing in terms of safety.

  19. #19
    The walrus and carpenter
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudpie
    No debate here, I took a test ride on a fixed pista today and I thought it was outstanding. There is definately something special about it and I look forward to adding one to my collection someday.

    who pooped in your cereal today......
    I'm glad you enjoyed it. Now use it somewhere safe. You wouldn't drive a drag racer on a city street if I had to guess.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.

    BTW I've broken more chains than I can count.
    I didn't know you made a point. (Kidding well sort of) Personally, I don't care about other people or cars EXCEPT when they threaten me bodily harm. If I didn't feel confident enough in my own abilities to ride brakeless I wouldn't. I ride multiple fixed gears: two with front brakes and three without. The three without are all track bikes, and only one of those sees much street use. Of the two that have brakes the brakes don't get used often. Most of my speed control while riding is using my legs. The only time I really use the front brake is to control speed on a downhill. I started out riding with a front brake because I didn't feel confident in my (lack of) skills. Eventually, after a year of fixed riding I went without and like it. Plus, I really want to fit in.

    No the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a brakeless fixed gear. Why do you think so many bike messengers use them? It is a bike in its most basic form. Adding shifters, brakes, derail., etc. means more complication and more things that can go wrong.

    My .02

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Once again, You've never seen me ride.
    Chains break pretty often. Knowing how to ride one means nothing in terms of safety.
    If you can't brake the rear wheel on a fixie in any circumstance, then you don't know how to ride fixie. I don't need to see you flail on a fixie to know that.

    It is that simple.

  22. #22
    The walrus and carpenter
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    I'm starting to wonder if any of you have been to college. You don't seem to know how to respond to my well-assembled argument without attacking me personally. Brilliant strategy. I've yet to hear a single rebuttal to any of my points.

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    How can you ever be in "complete" control on a bike? Answer that one for me. I bet there's more colisions between average riders on geared/brake equiped bikes than fixies anyday. While fixies on the street are the cool kid thing right now, there numbers are still miniscule at best compared to normal geared bikes.

    Your making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    This is my opinion.

    Now, can we get back to singlespeeds and offroad?
    "When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because it's always 20 years behind the times." Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    I'm starting to wonder if any of you have been to college. You don't seem to know how to respond to my well-assembled argument without attacking me personally. Brilliant strategy. I've yet to hear a single rebuttal to any of my points.
    It is just embarrassing is all. Like someone who isn't a doctor making assertions about doctoring in a room full of doctors.

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    Ok, I’ll bite. DSB you are mindlessly stereotyping any cyclist without a freewheel. I’ll agree that the trendy-3/4 pants-wanna be messenger-handbrakeless-track bike thing is stupid. So are freeriders that build illegal trails, get the most out of their eleventeen piston 10in rotors by going 50mph and then skidding, catching “knar air,” etc on multi use trails. Since there are a few of those idiots tearing around, should I assume that every dude I see on a dual suspension bike with more than 5in of travel and disc brakes is a erosion causing prick and go on a tirade on an internet forum? No, that’s retarded. I just about completely disagree with your statement: “the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake.” Firstly, disc brakes are not trouble free and not low maintenance, certainly not more so than a V-brake or a fixed gear cog. Rotors get bent, pads get contaminated, rotor bolts loosen, need to be bled, need long full length cables, etc. As an avid Fixie rider, I can apply the "rear brake" just as quickly (and with waaaaaay better modulation…no really) and with just as much braking force with the pedals as I can with a disc brake. The limiting factor on the rear wheel is traction, physics says so…and physics is smarter than you.(I think I’ve said that before).
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  26. #26
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    Maybe we hated the whole "debate team" vibe....

    I've been in sales for 20 years, I would hardly call your argument well assembled. Using "retarded" to describe children is reckless at best. If you wanted to say you hate fixies on the road you got your point across. I believe in your First Amendment rights, but....this is not a roadie board. Take your argument to a board that really loves fixies on the road. Your point will be made to several times the population versus arguing it here. Surely that makes sense to you?

    MC
    "When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because it's always 20 years behind the times." Twain

  27. #27
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    Fixies are irresponsible/rude!
    and black People steal
    jewish people are cheap
    white people cant jump
    fat people are lazy
    skinny people are anorexic
    people who studder are stupid
    republicans want to cut down all the forests
    democrats are tree hugging hippies
    people who drive SUVs hate the environment
    roadies are snobby

    hmm.....Pot...meet kettle....

  28. #28
    your ankles are fat
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    For those of us who have been to college but didn't get anything out of it....

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    I'm starting to wonder if any of you have been to college. You don't seem to know how to respond to my well-assembled argument without attacking me personally. Brilliant strategy. I've yet to hear a single rebuttal to any of my points.
    ...Sorry again, but where is this "well assembled arguement" with any clear points?"

  29. #29
    The walrus and carpenter
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    Quote Originally Posted by redxj
    I didn't know you made a point. (Kidding well sort of) Personally, I don't care about other people or cars EXCEPT when they threaten me bodily harm. If I didn't feel confident enough in my own abilities to ride brakeless I wouldn't. I ride multiple fixed gears: two with front brakes and three without. The three without are all track bikes, and only one of those sees much street use. Of the two that have brakes the brakes don't get used often. Most of my speed control while riding is using my legs. The only time I really use the front brake is to control speed on a downhill. I started out riding with a front brake because I didn't feel confident in my (lack of) skills. Eventually, after a year of fixed riding I went without and like it. Plus, I really want to fit in.

    No the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a brakeless fixed gear. Why do you think so many bike messengers use them? It is a bike in its most basic form. Adding shifters, brakes, derail., etc. means more complication and more things that can go wrong.

    My .02
    Finally
    A good argument (laced with complacent irresponsibility)
    Good point about bike messengers. I'd like to see statistics on how many use brakes but I suspect they don't exist. Most of the messengers I've seen/talked to use f and r brakes. I suspect this is very-much dependant on local trends. The most low-maintenance parts I've ever owned have been quality hydraulic discs. Set up correctly you often don't have to touch them for 2+ years. Your personal experience is also a good point. Have you ever broken a chain on your fixies? I'll even give you some ammunition for your argument. Most of my chain-breaks have been due to impact. They still break pretty often though.
    To say that you don't care about other people when your on your bike is the definition of irresponsible. That is why the public has yet to embrace bikes in the US. They are afraid of us. It's up to us to dispel this image if we don't want to be shunned forever.

  30. #30
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    Yo Troll, bored this evening?
    Fat fanatic.

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  31. #31
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    [QUOTE=mikeb]fixies have no brakesQUOTE]

    There's no rule that says a fixed gear bike can't have brakes. Mine has a front brake. When I use it I can stop on a dime. If I just use back pressure it takes maybe 15 cents to stop.

    As far as, "Fixies should not be allowed on the street because they are bad for the image of all bikers and the safety of everyone else." (DeepSouthBuilder); so by this reasoning we should probably be working on banning mountain bikers who skid because they present a bad image (trail damage, etc.). I'm sure that there are non-riders out there who see "free riders" in commercials or on some extreme sports show and think that they are out of control. I've had encounters with hikers while I was on my rigid single speed and they clearly thought I was a menance just seconds away from running them down when in fact I was rolling at maybe 10 miles an hour on level ground completely in control of the bike.

    The point is that the image you refer to is all perception. There's always someone who's going to perceive bicyclists (any bicyclists on any bike) as out of control delinquents.

    Can't we all just relax and be nice to each other?
    "I read a Russian novel once," Anderson cut in bleakly. "People with unpronounceable names did nothing for seven hundred and eighty-three pages, after which somebody's aunt died."

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellowCat
    How can you ever be in "complete" control on a bike? Answer that one for me. I bet there's more colisions between average riders on geared/brake equiped bikes than fixies anyday.
    I feel totally in control any time I have two brakes and a handlebar in front of me.
    There are also WAY more F-Hub brake-equipped bikes out there. I would also be willing to bet that the average fixie rider is significantly more skilled.

  33. #33
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    oh, BTW, I HAVE snapped a brake cable before.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatFender
    and black People steal
    jewish people are cheap
    white people cant jump
    fat people are lazy
    skinny people are anorexic
    people who studder are stupid
    republicans want to cut down all the forests
    democrats are tree hugging hippies
    people who drive SUVs hate the environment
    roadies are snobby

    hmm.....Pot...meet kettle....
    Please keep your racism out of my threads and mtbr.

    If you're trying to suggest that FR is irresponsible/rude you couldn't be more wrong. We have done more in the last 5 years to make innovative solutions to trailwear issues than XC guys did for the 30 before. Not to mention we have multi-million dollar facilities specifically for our discipline. I also suggest that you read my user name.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Please keep your racism out of my threads and mtbr.
    seriously wondering if you have been to college now. Read it again, all the way through this time.
    Just because someones bike does not have a freewheel does not make them irresponsible.
    Your arguement needs work.

    My point was that you are stereotyping ALL fixie riders into one category, and obviously we all know that stereotypes are wrong more often than not.

  36. #36
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    You just admited that "fixie riders are significantly more skilled"? How does this support your comment/argument?

    Like you said "I feel" totally in control, but your not, accidents happen to everyone at somepoint. Anyone who says accidents don't happen to them is an accident waiting to happen.

    By the way, the best rider I have ever seen on trail was a rigid fixie rider, bar none.
    "When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because it's always 20 years behind the times." Twain

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Finally
    ....The most low-maintenance parts I've ever owned have been quality hydraulic discs. Set up correctly you often don't have to touch them for 2+ years. Your personal experience is also a good point. Have you ever broken a chain on your fixies? I'll even give you some ammunition for your argument. Most of my chain-breaks have been due to impact. They still break pretty often though.....
    Two years, really? If you left a hyd disc brake absolutely untouched/unridden for two years, I’d guarantee that you’d be due for a bleeding-maybe a fluid change. Do you ride your bikes? Never have to replace pads/rotors, re-bleed, etc. And yes chains brake, I use a front brake on my fixie and replace my chain fairly often. With a 34-16 on a 26in wheel I top out at a breakneck 15mph. Say I removed my front brake and went out riding and my chain blew up…I’d simply bail out and start running. Hardly graceful, but not exactly killing a school bus full of children.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignatz
    As far as, "Fixies should not be allowed on the street because they are bad for the image of all bikers and the safety of everyone else." (DeepSouthBuilder); so by this reasoning we should probably be working on banning mountain bikers who skid because they present a bad image (trail damage, etc.). I'm sure that there are non-riders out there who see "free riders" in commercials or on some extreme sports show and think that they are out of control. I've had encounters with hikers while I was on my rigid single speed and they clearly thought I was a menance just seconds away from running them down when in fact I was rolling at maybe 10 miles an hour on level ground completely in control of the bike.

    The point is that the image you refer to is all perception. There's always someone who's going to perceive bicyclists (any bicyclists on any bike) as out of control delinquents.

    Can't we all just relax and be nice to each other?
    I agree totally about skidding on trails. I do TONS of trailwork and I hate this rude behavior. But that's all it is rude. It's not dangerous to unsuspecting people and it's a much more controlled environment. Not to mention there is a point at which you learn not to do that anymore. That's a beginner move. Thanks for backing me up on my point about the genral public groups us together. Thank you also for not acting like a child. Most FR guys (once they know what they're doing) are really good at staying away from pedestrians (there are plenty of uneducated newbies but educating them is a whole nother issue).

    Thanks for your post.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatFender
    seriously wondering if you have been to college now. Read it again, all the way through this time.
    Just because someones bike does not have a freewheel does not make them irresponsible.
    Your arguement needs work.

    My point was that you are stereotyping ALL fixie riders into one category, and obviously we all know that stereotypes are wrong more often than not.
    I'm in college now and I've taken all the classes pertinent to argument already.

    You're right. I made an unfair generalization. You are irresponsible/rude if you ride in the city without f and r brakes thinking that the chain is enough to stop you.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg
    Two years, really? If you left a hyd disc brake absolutely untouched/unridden for two years, I’d guarantee that you’d be due for a bleeding-maybe a fluid change. Do you ride your bikes? Never have to replace pads/rotors, re-bleed, etc. And yes chains brake, I use a front brake on my fixie and replace my chain fairly often. With a 34-16 on a 26in wheel I top out at a breakneck 15mph. Say I removed my front brake and went out riding and my chain blew up…I’d simply bail out and start running. Hardly graceful, but not exactly killing a school bus full of children.
    Yeah I ride every day. I have several bikes so that helps. I'm at about 14 months on my Juicy Sevens and they are barely starting to need a bleed. The Contact Point adjustment on the Sevens helps that significantly though. Still on the original pads and they had 32 full lift-assisted days this summer. 8 of those days were over 25 runs and 30,000 ft of vert. They are getting close though. Maybe I use my brakes less than average. I'll change my estimate to 1 year if you're more comfortable with that. Still pretty low-maintenance if you ask me. If I was a pedestrian I wouldn't want a bike plowing into me with or without a rider.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellowCat
    You just admited that "fixie riders are significantly more skilled"? How does this support your comment/argument?

    Like you said "I feel" totally in control, but your not, accidents happen to everyone at somepoint. Anyone who says accidents don't happen to them is an accident waiting to happen.

    By the way, the best rider I have ever seen on trail was a rigid fixie rider, bar none.
    I said the average fixie rider is probably more skilled. That doesn't make the bike itself any safer.

    I've got a few good pictures of me crashing in my gallery. Not one of them is from a failure to stop. They are all from not reading the terrain properly.

  42. #42
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    [QUOTE=DeepSouthBuilder]Thanks for backing me up on my point about the genral public groups us together.QUOTE]

    Ummm, I think you missed my point. The non-riding majority could apply your reasoning to any type of cyclist. It is in fact a common argument used by hikers and equestrians to try and get us banned from trails ("those crazy mountain bikers are all out of control and a menance to my peaceful wilderness experience").

    As the minority it is in our best interest to all work together to overcome the stereotypes that are generated by people reacting to a few thoughtless individuals. Creating additional division by applying the actions of a few people (brakeless fixie riders who cannot always control their bikes) to the whole (fixie riders) just weakens all of our efforts.
    "I read a Russian novel once," Anderson cut in bleakly. "People with unpronounceable names did nothing for seven hundred and eighty-three pages, after which somebody's aunt died."

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellowCat
    Maybe we hated the whole "debate team" vibe....

    I've been in sales for 20 years, I would hardly call your argument well assembled. Using "retarded" to describe children is reckless at best. If you wanted to say you hate fixies on the road you got your point across. I believe in your First Amendment rights, but....this is not a roadie board. Take your argument to a board that really loves fixies on the road. Your point will be made to several times the population versus arguing it here. Surely that makes sense to you?

    MC
    Since no one has come up with a rebuttal to either of my points that I can't argue I believe it's pretty well put together. Children aren't incredibly smart as a whole. Sorry if you don't like "retarded" but I think you would agree that I've tolerated a lot of more childish personal attacks in this thread. Not one person has posted on the pro-fixie thread telling them to take it elsewhere and I think you would agree that this issue is clearly relevant to a lot of people on this board. Besides I can barely type fast enough to keep up with the number of responses here. What is a mountainbike anyway?
    Surely that makes sense to you?

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignatz
    Ummm, I think you missed my point. The non-riding majority could apply your reasoning to any type of cyclist. It is in fact a common argument used by hikers and equestrians to try and get us banned from trails ("those crazy mountain bikers are all out of control and a menance to my peaceful wilderness experience").

    As the minority it is in our best interest to all work together to overcome the stereotypes that are generated by people reacting to a few thoughtless individuals. Creating additional division by applying the actions of a few people (brakeless fixie riders who cannot always control their bikes) to the whole (fixie riders) just weakens all of our efforts.
    Exactly
    That's why we have to go out of our way to be extra safe. Don't assume things about where/how I ride. Everywhere I ride is FR-specific, believe it or not. All my main spots are on private land and single-use. I'm on your side.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29Colossus
    It is just embarrassing is all. Like someone who isn't a doctor making assertions about doctoring in a room full of doctors.
    Are you suggesting I'm not a bike rider or not a fixie rider?
    I definitely have enough experience with both.
    Your posts have been easily the most childish.
    Once again you don't know anything about my riding.

    I have gotten some good arguments. Just not from you.

  46. #46
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    Lemme see...

    I'll be riding 10,000 km this year (barring death and dismemberment) and come spring, some of those miles are going to be ridden on a fixed gear, albeit with a front brake.

    I'm also a responsible rider and a huge advocate of cycling as an alternative form of transportation and lifestyle.

    Brakeless fixies are a little frightening to most people, even avid cyclists like myself..
    I ride with 65'er...he's a mountain goat....But then again, we need to throw him in the mud and pack his pockets with lead shot before a scale will read him. - Psycho Mike

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upchuck
    Yo Troll, bored this evening?
    Not a troll. I've had other user names. Lots of people know me here.
    I also own a SS so I definitely have a right to post here.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatFender
    oh, BTW, I HAVE snapped a brake cable before.
    You're not the first person. If it was on the street and just failed applying the brakes then you should call the company to complain and never use that brand again. Did it fail at the clamp?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
    Lemme see...

    I'll be riding 10,000 km this year (barring death and dismemberment) and come spring, some of those miles are going to be ridden on a fixed gear, albeit with a front brake.

    I'm also a responsible rider and a huge advocate of cycling as an alternative form of transportation and lifestyle.

    Brakeless fixies are a little frightening to most people, even avid cyclists like myself..
    Thanks for you post. Do you plan on riding a fixie on busy city streets?

  50. #50
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    Children are not retarded, they're less experienced, and yet much more enjoyable to be around than adults that think their educated on arguing a point.... Have a few someday when your old enough and you'll better know what your talking about. Kids teach you more than a Harvard education ever could.

    Well, I for one have better things to do with my time than follow this thread anymore. Enjoy your trolling.

    MC
    "When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because it's always 20 years behind the times." Twain

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    A brakeless fixed gear bike in the hands of a skilled rider can stop as well as or better than, say, a Schwinn Breeze with slightly out of true steel wheels and crappy wal mart brake pads or just a coaster brake. So what if you can stop a little bit faster than a brakeless rider with your fancy shmancy disc brakes? It's not as if it takes a whole city block to stop fixed gear without a brake.

    My fixie has a brake, I find the mainting a brake is less work/money than replacing tires all the time from skidding all over town, but that's just me.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg
    Ok, I’ll bite. DSB you are mindlessly stereotyping any cyclist without a freewheel. I’ll agree that the trendy-3/4 pants-wanna be messenger-handbrakeless-track bike thing is stupid. So are freeriders that build illegal trails, get the most out of their eleventeen piston 10in rotors by going 50mph and then skidding, catching “knar air,” etc on multi use trails. Since there are a few of those idiots tearing around, should I assume that every dude I see on a dual suspension bike with more than 5in of travel and disc brakes is a erosion causing prick and go on a tirade on an internet forum? No, that’s retarded. I just about completely disagree with your statement: “the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake.” Firstly, disc brakes are not trouble free and not low maintenance, certainly not more so than a V-brake or a fixed gear cog. Rotors get bent, pads get contaminated, rotor bolts loosen, need to be bled, need long full length cables, etc. As an avid Fixie rider, I can apply the "rear brake" just as quickly (and with waaaaaay better modulation…no really) and with just as much braking force with the pedals as I can with a disc brake. The limiting factor on the rear wheel is traction, physics says so…and physics is smarter than you.(I think I’ve said that before).
    You're completely right on almost all counts. I did make an unfair generalization but I already apologized for that. I hate irresponsible FRs just as much as irresponsible fixie riders.
    I disagree BIG TIME about V-Brakes being less maintenance. That is, of course, under hard use. With V-Brakes you have to keep your wheels perfectly true and lube/replace cables constantly. I don't believe impact damage (bent rotors) is pertinent since that throws everything out the window. Anything can get damaged in a crash. Pads get contaminated and rotor bolts loosen only if you don't know how to work on discs. As far as reliability and bleed frequency goes that's very much brand-dependant. It unfair to generalize about Avid, Formula, Hope, Magura, or Shimano based on experience with Hayes or Diatech.
    Chains still break pretty often.

  53. #53
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    [QUOTE=DeepSouthBuilder]Don't assume things about where/how I ride. QUOTE]

    I didn't make any assumptions about how or where YOU ride. I was speaking about mountain biking in general.

    I guess I'm not making myself clear. As best as I can tell your argument is:
    "Fixies should not be allowed on the street because they are bad for the image of all bikers and the safety of everyone else."

    This argument rests on two flawed assumptions;
    1 - that all fixies are brakeless and therefore "irresponsible." Clearly from replies here and in a variety of other forums I'm familiar with a fair percentage of fixed riders have at least one brake on their bike.
    2 - that all fixies are ridden in a manner that frightens or endangers pedestrians and/or motorists. Sure, some are but so are some singlespeeds, some downhill bikes, some Walmart bikes... Why single out fixies? (no pun intended)
    A well maintained fixed gear bike ridden by someone who gives a crap about the people around him is no more irresponsible or dangerous than any other type of bike.
    It's about the operator, not the machine.
    "I read a Russian novel once," Anderson cut in bleakly. "People with unpronounceable names did nothing for seven hundred and eighty-three pages, after which somebody's aunt died."

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Thanks for you post. Do you plan on riding a fixie on busy city streets?
    I ride all my bikes on busy streets.

    Once I get comfy on the fixie (it's a road bike) it will also see the same busy streets and probably get used a good deal for my commute.
    I ride with 65'er...he's a mountain goat....But then again, we need to throw him in the mud and pack his pockets with lead shot before a scale will read him. - Psycho Mike

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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignatz
    This argument rests on two flawed assumptions;
    1 - that all fixies are brakeless and therefore "irresponsible." Clearly from replies here and in a variety of other forums I'm familiar with a fair percentage of fixed riders have at least one brake on their bike.
    2 - that all fixies are ridden in a manner that frightens or endangers pedestrians and/or motorists. Sure, some are but so are some singlespeeds, some downhill bikes, some Walmart bikes... Why single out fixies? (no pun intended)
    A well maintained fixed gear bike ridden by someone who gives a crap about the people around him is no more irresponsible or dangerous than any other type of bike.
    It's about the operator, not the machine.
    This is the third time I've apologized for my unfair generalization.
    I don't, however, think that a front brake is enough. IMO you should have f and r brakes on a city street. I have ridden my r brake only SS on the street but it's not a good idea and I certainly wouldn't commute in a city among cars like that.
    I never said that they were all ridden dangerously just that the bikes themselves are dangerous.
    Why single out fixies? I think I've made it clear that I believe they are all dangerous if not used in the right environment (velodrome).
    Several people on this thread that claim to be experienced have demonstrated a profound disinterest in the safety of others.

  56. #56
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    If that's your decision then be careful and don't go very fast. Also make sure your chain is in good condition.

  57. #57
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    I'd say that folks who only ride with a rear brake (unless they ride a coaster bike) are a little irresponsible or ignorant of the physics involved in stopping a bike... it's the front brake that does most of the work.
    I ride with 65'er...he's a mountain goat....But then again, we need to throw him in the mud and pack his pockets with lead shot before a scale will read him. - Psycho Mike

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  58. #58
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    I'm always careful and my bikes are always well maintained but telling me not to go really fast is like asking the sun not to rise.
    I ride with 65'er...he's a mountain goat....But then again, we need to throw him in the mud and pack his pockets with lead shot before a scale will read him. - Psycho Mike

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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemmer
    A brakeless fixed gear bike in the hands of a skilled rider can stop as well as or better than, say, a Schwinn Breeze with slightly out of true steel wheels and crappy wal mart brake pads or just a coaster brake. So what if you can stop a little bit faster than a brakeless rider with your fancy shmancy disc brakes? It's not as if it takes a whole city block to stop fixed gear without a brake.

    My fixie has a brake, I find the mainting a brake is less work/money than replacing tires all the time from skidding all over town, but that's just me.
    Good point about crap bikes. I, of course, have no statistics to back this up but I'm willing to bet that a larger percentage of fixie owners commute on their bikes than crappy bike owners. I do believe in minimum standards to be allowed to operate on a city street regardless of what type of bike you have. They have such laws for cars. The minimum standards IMO should be pretty high for everyone's good.

    I've already stated several times that everyone agrees that skidding is bad etiquette.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
    I'd say that folks who only ride with a rear brake (unless they ride a coaster bike) are a little irresponsible or ignorant of the physics involved in stopping a bike... it's the front brake that does most of the work.
    Yes Yes and Yes

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
    I'm always careful and my bikes are always well maintained but telling me not to go really fast is like asking the sun not to rise.
    You're from Edmonton, Alberta?
    That's a pretty busy city if I had to guess (never been). Not quite as bad as riding one in SF, NY, Portland, or Chicago but still dangerous IMO.
    Like I said I knew I wouldn't change anyone's mind.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg
    Ok, I’ll bite. DSB you are mindlessly stereotyping any cyclist without a freewheel. I’ll agree that the trendy-3/4 pants-wanna be messenger-handbrakeless-track bike thing is stupid. So are freeriders that build illegal trails, get the most out of their eleventeen piston 10in rotors by going 50mph and then skidding, catching “knar air,” etc on multi use trails. Since there are a few of those idiots tearing around, should I assume that every dude I see on a dual suspension bike with more than 5in of travel and disc brakes is a erosion causing prick and go on a tirade on an internet forum? No, that’s retarded. I just about completely disagree with your statement: “the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake.” Firstly, disc brakes are not trouble free and not low maintenance, certainly not more so than a V-brake or a fixed gear cog. Rotors get bent, pads get contaminated, rotor bolts loosen, need to be bled, need long full length cables, etc. As an avid Fixie rider, I can apply the "rear brake" just as quickly (and with waaaaaay better modulation…no really) and with just as much braking force with the pedals as I can with a disc brake. The limiting factor on the rear wheel is traction, physics says so…and physics is smarter than you.(I think I’ve said that before).
    Physics also says that if you are skidding you have no traction. You may have friction but not traction.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannybob
    Physics also says that if you are skidding you have no traction. You may have friction but not traction.
    Yep That's why you steer into a skid (duh).
    That's why you need an infallible means of stopping both wheels.

  64. #64
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    Go to

    www.63xc.com

    http://www.oldskooltrack.com/files/home.frame.html

    I'd have to argue about the control issue Now I do use brakes sometimes 2 but 75% of time on trail I don't use them..... On the road its more for for someone stepping out in front of me be it car or person. Porb maybe use the brakes maybe 5% of the time on the road. Put close to to 16,000 miles by bike last year and 14.5 k was on fixies... I feel far more in control on a fixie vs. a coasty or geared bike

    If you don't like disco don't listen.... Don't like the kool-aid, don't drink it!

    Don't like fixies don't ride them! Just my .02

    BTW= Pic is up in Crested Butte last year on a fixie
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannybob
    Physics also says that if you are skidding you have no traction. You may have friction but not traction.
    Um, exactly. It does not matter how much braking force you can apply over what is needed to skid the wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Yep That's why you steer into a skid (duh).
    That's why you need an infallible means of stopping both wheels.
    1) What, is this drivers ed? How do you steer the front tire if it skids?
    2) For safety we should all have to ride bikes like my first Huffy, a coaster brake and hand brakes. What braking system is infallible? And unless there is conversation involving SS MOUNTAIN BIKES, this thread has gone on about 4 pages too many.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    With V-Brakes you have to keep your wheels perfectly true and lube/replace cables constantly. I don't believe impact damage (bent rotors) is pertinent since that throws everything out the window. Anything can get damaged in a crash.
    So how exactly is bending a rotor different than knocking a rim out of true, besides it being easier to bend a rotor?
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  66. #66
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  67. #67
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    Ten year messenger
    College grad (hope that makes me smart enough to reply)

    I've had ONE near-accident since going fixed (wouldn't have been any better with a brake). I am annoyed by noobies showing up and riding fixie in my town without figuring out how to ride in traffic first. I am just as annoyed by noobies who ride bikes with freewheels in a reckless manner. A stupid rider is just that, a stupid rider.

    Here's my cut and paste reply to this topic:

    "Coaster brakes are found on everyday beach cruisers and children's bikes.

    They rely on the drivetrain to slow down.
    They rely on leg strength to work.
    They will not work if the chain falls off/breaks.
    They are usually found on bikes WITHOUT a front brake or a backup option.
    They should be illegal (in your world).

    Anything I missed?"
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatFender
    oh, BTW, I HAVE snapped a brake cable before.
    Me too. It broke near the cable end in the lever. Theoretically it
    could've happened at a bad time (it didn't).
    Last edited by teamdicky; 02-22-2007 at 04:49 AM.
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  69. #69
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    How many responses you have..

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Not a troll. I've had other user names. Lots of people know me here.
    I also own a SS so I definitely have a right to post here.
    ohh, i love my fixies.
    Deepsouthbuilder...how many times have you posted in this thread.
    I not only ride fixies 95% of the time..i build my own frames so i guess that really makes me unsafe.....
    By the way..are you PVD`S twin brother...

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    I'm glad you enjoyed it. Now use it somewhere safe. You wouldn't drive a drag racer on a city street if I had to guess.
    Actually... I used to race every weekend in my 1970 nova with a Bored out 327 from a stingray Corvette, M21 4-speed, 411 gears and posi.... but I digress, and it was my daily driver even though it did low 13's in the quarter mile.

    And if I had a fixie I'd ride, but ride it like any other bike. Resposibly.

    Tony

    PS: My Nova also had 13:1 compression.
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  71. #71
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    Personally it comes down to the person who started this thread is one who deems that they know what's best for everyone else... sounds like a democrat. I don't have a fixie, but don't think that just because you think you know what's best is best, cuz it ain't.

    How about if I say to you that you can't have any beer because I can't.... nevermind, this thread has run its course and it's a dead thread.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by duotone
    Actually... I used to race every weekend in my 1970 nova with a Bored out 327 from a stingray Corvette, M21 4-speed, 411 gears and posi.... but I digress, and it was my daily driver even though it did low 13's in the quarter mile.

    And if I had a fixie I'd ride, but ride it like any other bike. Resposibly.

    Tony

    PS: My Nova also had 13:1 compression.
    I had an S10 w/ a 383 in the 14s that was very streetable. I'm talking rails/funny cars. 13:1 damn! That's not exactly legal probably. Not even here in Alabama.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    Ten year messenger
    College grad (hope that makes me smart enough to reply)

    I've had ONE near-accident since going fixed (wouldn't have been any better with a brake). I am annoyed by noobies showing up and riding fixie in my town without figuring out how to ride in traffic first. I am just as annoyed by noobies who ride bikes with freewheels in a reckless manner. A stupid rider is just that, a stupid rider.

    Here's my cut and paste reply to this topic:

    "Coaster brakes are found on everyday beach cruisers and children's bikes.

    They rely on the drivetrain to slow down.
    They rely on leg strength to work.
    They will not work if the chain falls off/breaks.
    They are usually found on bikes WITHOUT a front brake or a backup option.
    They should be illegal (in your world).

    Anything I missed?"
    Nope, you pretty much nailed it. I agree with everything you said.
    The college comment was for everyone that felt the need to insult me without giving me any real information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    To say that you don't care about other people when your on your bike is the definition of irresponsible. That is why the public has yet to embrace bikes in the US. They are afraid of us. It's up to us to dispel this image if we don't want to be shunned forever.
    nope america is lazy and looking for the easiest most convienient way to get from point a to b without breaking a sweat or getting dirty...

    imust admit i haven't even read most of the rest of the thread but i assure you my fixed gear (with a front break) is just as safe to ride in traffic as any of your bikes and i do it most every day.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by duotone
    Personally it comes down to the person who started this thread is one who deems that they know what's best for everyone else... sounds like a democrat. I don't have a fixie, but don't think that just because you think you know what's best is best, cuz it ain't.

    How about if I say to you that you can't have any beer because I can't.... nevermind, this thread has run its course and it's a dead thread.
    I vote Democrat more often than not but if McCain gets the nod he'll get my vote. I like moderates. If I had to guess the liberal demographic and avid cyclist demographic probably overlap a lot so that's a pretty fool-proof guess.
    I am willing to change my mind. In fact the posts that weren't childish have greatly increased my opinion of fixies. I really wish people could just not take this so damn personal.
    I haven't insulted a single person but have taken lots of insults myself.
    I don't drink but thanks.

  76. #76
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    Cool. Now that I've had my coffee I'm good.... Don't take my coffee away... PLEASE
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Are you suggesting I'm not a bike rider or not a fixie rider?
    I definitely have enough experience with both.
    Your posts have been easily the most childish.
    Once again you don't know anything about my riding.

    I have gotten some good arguments. Just not from you.
    I am not suggesting anything. I am telling you. You suck at riding fixie. I have been perfectly clear in that regard.

    No "argument" needs to be made. Your ignorance supercedes whatever "argument" you think you have. Stop flattering yourself. Your argument isn't worth a stuck pig, and your statements prove your lack of ability.

    Your trolling isn't even painfull. It is simply misguided due to your lack of skill and ignorance regarding fixies.

    If you knew how to ride a fixie with proficiency, you wouldn't have made this silly thread.

    No go learn something.

  78. #78
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    Some questions:
    Has anyone ever broken a chain stopping with their pedals on a fixie?
    What are the most popular gear combos?
    If you've broken a chain do you believe your gearing had anything to do with it?
    Do you notice a difference in braking power with different gear ratios?
    Do you use clipless or flats? (I'm pretty sure I can answer this one)

  79. #79
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    fugly fast

    holee schmoleee! this one got ugly too fast.

    I ride fixie on the roads. Lucky for me I rode on country roads. I use a front brake on my fixie. My fixie and me, if we could, would have children together.

    When I was commuting to Milwaukee, I'd ride the old Gunnar with a freewheel (ENO of course)...but then, seeing the gracefulness of messengers downtown, I opted to ride fixie. I learned quickly hot to have that precognitive sense when it came to pedestrians and traffic, and how just to respect the laws. If some dork in a car didn't respect, I wouldn't argue. I love my wife and child, so I won't rebute someone who cut me off in the city...out here, a different story.

    Just be patient my friend. Sit back, relax, get away from the computer. Watch HGTV and get some ideas from "Design on a Dime" and partake in some Häagen-Dazs.

    Life's too short to just b i t c h & moan about quandries.

  80. #80
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    answers

    Has anyone ever broken a chain stopping with their pedals on a fixie?
    Not me. I'm a badass

    What are the most popular gear combos?
    Mine are these but I ride 46/16 on the fixie. 34/16 on my 29er.

    If you've broken a chain do you believe your gearing had anything to do with it?
    nope, if I broke a chian it is because its old and stretched out.

    Do you notice a difference in braking power with different gear ratios?
    Well, since I use a front brake and leg resistance at the same time for breaking...

    Do you use clipless or flats? (I'm pretty sure I can answer this one)
    Clipless is the way I roll

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Some questions:
    Has anyone ever broken a chain stopping with their pedals on a fixie?
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    What are the most popular gear combos?
    I run a 48X18

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    If you've broken a chain do you believe your gearing had anything to do with it?
    N/A Keep in mind, my chains are always replaced when they hit .75 on a Park Chain Checker. It's left on my workbench as a reminder to check it often.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Do you notice a difference in braking power with different gear ratios?
    The only other gear I ran was a 48X19, so no.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Do you use clipless or flats? (I'm pretty sure I can answer this one)
    I run SPD (sandals mostly). Lots of guys in town use toeclips. I've only popped out a few times when my cleat was worn way the hell out ( I know better than that). It won't happen again.
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  82. #82
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    I'm not a fixie rider, but it seems to me that if you're going about 10-15mph and some kid, retarded or otherwise, jumps out in front of you quick enough to require you stopping on a dime (ie you don't have time to turn to avoid him), then no amount of braking power is really going to help. Same thing in a car, if a kid jumps out at the right time, he's screwed. We can debate all day about the most effective braking system, put them side-by-side and compare their stopping distances, measure wear on components versus time spent maintaining those components, blah, blah, blah. But I don't think that would solve anything and probably wouldn't be very interesting. I think it is true that something that is moving is inherently dangerous when it is used in close proximity to something that is stationary. It is also true that if you don't have time to stop or avoid collision, then that's it: you don't have time to stop. That's not a function of your equipment choice any more than it is a function of your clothing choice on that particular day.

    I do agree that the cycling community needs to consider how it represents itself to the general public, especially in traffic. I see riders running lights and disobeying traffic laws and all that does is make drivers hate cyclists. And riders tearing up trails just makes hikers and other environmentalists hate us too. For example, I bought a few mountain bike DVDs not too long ago and there was just as much footage of the riders throwing stuff at cars on the highway, destroying hotel rooms, and vandalizing public spaces as there was of them riding. This is hardly representative of the cycling community, but they're out there representing us, in real life and on DVD. If we're not careful to avoid the public's misplaced hatred then they might start passing laws requiring passengar car grade braking systems on all road bikes, ban us from all trails, tax the hell out of beer...nobody wants to see that happen. That's one of the most serious problems facing cycling now, getting rid of the mentality among *some* riders (freeride, fixie, singlespeed, full-suspension, democrat, repubican, whoever) who are just out to piss off the man. While we're at it we could probably get rid of those members of thegeneral public who hate cyclists for no good reason. Then the rest of us will be perfectly capable of living in harmony.

    Amen!

  83. #83
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    DSB, since you're all about making a proper argument, do you have any statistics to back up your 'unsafe' & 'irresponsible' claims?

    Like, how many accidents involved/were caused by brakeless fixy vs a 'normal' two brake equipped bicycle? You know, like using facts rather than perception to support your claims? If someone swings open a car door, or jaywalks out in front of me, it doesn't matter what sort of brake my bike is equipped with, someone's going down, most likely me.

    Along the line of your 'debate', I would posit that all freeriders should also be banned. I've even seen pictures & video of them doing wall rides, rail slides, stair gaps, etc in an urban environment. Do they or don't they put the general public in as much danger as a street fixy rider in that same urban environment? By 'vandalizing' existing structures much like skateboarders are perceived to, aren't your urban freeride brothers as much of a blight on the image of cycling as an urban brakeless fixy rider?

    Or is that A-O-K, because you think it's cool? I mean, that shite looks dangerous and out of control so it should be banned! I've even ridden down some stairs at the local college campus, maybe even caught some air off a few, so I guess I'm as much of an expert in your genre as you are on fixed wheel bikes with your two fixie rides.

    By constructing your ramps and bridges and stunts out in the local forest, aren't you also a blight on the image of cycling when viewed thru the eyes of some crunchy tree hugging hiker? Why can't you just enjoy nature as it is?

    From your original post, you said it yourself:
    "To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations."

    So, why exactly, are you singling out one very small portion of the culture?

  84. #84
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    I've changed my mind. Partially
    If you have a front brake you're good.
    My reasoning is that in an emergency stop situation a front brake would take a significant amount of load off of the chain thereby making it pretty improbable that it would break.
    That's the best argument I've seen yet and I came up with it.
    Anecdotal evidence is only kind of helpful. If you have any real facts you should easily be able to sway me since I don't have any to back up my stance. (I doubt the neccessary statistic exist)

    29Colossus: you are now on my ignore list since all you did was insult me in 5 or so posts. I'm pretty sure you don't care. Once again: Rider skill has NOTHING to do with the safety of the equipment. That is not a way to win this argument.

  85. #85
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    One more question:
    What size wheels do you use?

  86. #86
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    So lets say you're braking and OH SCHNAP your F and R cables break, and your chain!! Does that make the rider irresponsible because he didn't have more backups? That's what I'm getting out of your argument.

    For the record, I believe that brakeless fixies are completely moronic. This hipster shiit is kind of silly.

    I ride a fixed gear with a front brake. That combined with resistance of the rear wheel is just as effective as having two cable pull brakes. If one or the other breaks, I'm confident I could get to a stop and walk it home.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    29Colossus: you are now on my ignore list since all you did was insult me in 5 or so posts. I'm pretty sure you don't care. Once again: Rider skill has NOTHING to do with the safety of the equipment. That is not a way to win this argument.
    Thank God for that! That is the best choice you could have made for yourself.

    There is no argument. There is just your lack of fixie skill and your ignorance. You don't even deny it. You know it. You have very little fixie experience and skill. You have no real clue what the stopping capabilities of a fixie sans rear brake are.

    That is the ONLY problem here.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    One more question:
    What size wheels do you use?
    Since you asked yourself the question, we will all wait for the answer. Is this guy for real?

    I'm going to bet that the wheels on the road bikes are 650/700, and the cruiser/mountainbikes are gonna probably be 26" or 29"....

    Go figure huh?


  89. #89
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    I thought this was a MTB forum.

    As far as I know, no one on a fixed MTB has been opressed by the law...yes? See you over on http://forums.roadbikereview.com/
    unityhandbuilt

  90. #90
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    I just read the post from beginning to here. This is so like, mongoloid retarded.

  91. #91
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    The question is not about stopping capacity. I know that if you stop moving your feet the wheel stops turning. No huge leap of logic there. The question is about the reliabilty and thusly the safety of that method of stopping.

    I'm asking about the most popular wheel size because it's pretty easy to come up with a mathematical formula for load and it should IMO be based on average/most popular combos. Hell, I could test tensile strength of chains in my house on a pretty easily constructed rig.

    Believe it or not I really am trying to gather some info here.

    That's the last time I read any of your posts. Really.


    I guess I should have asked if anyone knew of anyone that had broken a chain this way?

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSouthBuilder
    Rider skill has NOTHING to do with the safety of the equipment.
    While rider skill may not directly have much to do with the safety of the equipment, it does play indirectly into the equation. You can put all the safety measures you want into a car, but if the guy behind the wheel doesn't know how to drive and runs it into a tree at 60 mph, there is still a very great chance he will be injured or killed (not to mention if he runs it into someone else!) Likewise, an unskilled rider on a fixie may be quite unsafe, while a skilled and experienced fixie rider will be (for the sake of argument) much less unsafe.

    Riding a fixie without a front or rear brake is not necessarily irresponsible. Are there many who do ride so irresponsible? Yes, but that does not make the bike itself an irresponsible means of transportation.

    If someone who rides a freewheel with both brakes never takes care of their bike, something is bound to happen eventually. Both brake lines going at once are not very likely, you would think. Yet many people bring bikes into our shop wherein neither brakes work because the cables are corroded, the pads are worn, the rim is a mess, etc. Definitely not as safe as a well-kept fixie, that's for sure.

    The main issue, it appears to me, with the anti-fixie party is the lack of apparent back-up braking system when riding a fixie without a brake. On a freewheel bike with 2 brakes, there is a back-up if one fails. But it is possible, and quite frequent, that both do fail on bikes I've seen ridden on the streets. Yet, there are still measures a rider can take if they loose their braking systems, whether the cable or chain snapped. There is always the old drag-your-feet method, there is the hop off and slow the bike down by running along while holding it, and there is the lay-the-bike-down-if-you-really-need-to method or running into an object that you can't hurt with your bike to avoid hurting someone or something (all of these methods I have seen performed, or performed myself, on freewheeled bikes with brakes).

    Finally, an argument that a fixie rider may lose his ability to stop if he has a leg spasm or cramp is not very well founded, either. Hands get tired from braking pretty quickly, moreso than the much stronger legs. I find myself more likely to get hand-spasms or cramps. And both of these can be avoided by proper stretching and hydration.

    So although I personally do not and never have ridden a fixie, I do not see how they are inherently irresponsible or rude machines. It's the riders who are irresponsible and/or rude, regardless of what kind of bike.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle
    While rider skill may not directly have much to do with the safety of the equipment, it does play indirectly into the equation. You can put all the safety measures you want into a car, but if the guy behind the wheel doesn't know how to drive and runs it into a tree at 60 mph, there is still a very great chance he will be injured or killed (not to mention if he runs it into someone else!) Likewise, an unskilled rider on a fixie may be quite unsafe, while a skilled and experienced fixie rider will be (for the sake of argument) much less unsafe.

    Riding a fixie without a front or rear brake is not necessarily irresponsible. Are there many who do ride so irresponsible? Yes, but that does not make the bike itself an irresponsible means of transportation.

    If someone who rides a freewheel with both brakes never takes care of their bike, something is bound to happen eventually. Both brake lines going at once are not very likely, you would think. Yet many people bring bikes into our shop wherein neither brakes work because the cables are corroded, the pads are worn, the rim is a mess, etc. Definitely not as safe as a well-kept fixie, that's for sure.

    The main issue, it appears to me, with the anti-fixie party is the lack of apparent back-up braking system when riding a fixie without a brake. On a freewheel bike with 2 brakes, there is a back-up if one fails. But it is possible, and quite frequent, that both do fail on bikes I've seen ridden on the streets. Yet, there are still measures a rider can take if they loose their braking systems, whether the cable or chain snapped. There is always the old drag-your-feet method, there is the hop off and slow the bike down by running along while holding it, and there is the lay-the-bike-down-if-you-really-need-to method or running into an object that you can't hurt with your bike to avoid hurting someone or something (all of these methods I have seen performed, or performed myself, on freewheeled bikes with brakes).

    Finally, an argument that a fixie rider may lose his ability to stop if he has a leg spasm or cramp is not very well founded, either. Hands get tired from braking pretty quickly, moreso than the much stronger legs. I find myself more likely to get hand-spasms or cramps. And both of these can be avoided by proper stretching and hydration.

    So although I personally do not and never have ridden a fixie, I do not see how they are inherently irresponsible or rude machines. It's the riders who are irresponsible and/or rude, regardless of what kind of bike.
    THANK YOU for an intelligent response.
    Not much I can say to that.

  94. #94
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    Riding a Fixie is really not really all that difficult only thing to keep in mind is keep pedaling. Ok this is an over simplification of a fixie. Love my Fixie and only thing I'd change out is the frame for one with better geometry that would fit a bit closer. Only brake on mine is the ability to backpedal.

    This being said and knowing the laws of physics one can stop shorter with a front brake vs a rear. Since a true fixie only has a "rear brake" it will not stop as quick as a bike with an operational front brake. If one does ride a fixie I could see an argument for insalling a front brake ONLY. rear brake is already built in to the design.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwiffle
    The main issue, it appears to me, with the anti-fixie party is the lack of apparent back-up braking system when riding a fixie without a brake. On a freewheel bike with 2 brakes, there is a back-up if one fails. But it is possible, and quite frequent, that both do fail on bikes I've seen ridden on the streets. Yet, there are still measures a rider can take if they loose their braking systems, whether the cable or chain snapped. There is always the old drag-your-feet method, there is the hop off and slow the bike down by running along while holding it, and there is the lay-the-bike-down-if-you-really-need-to method or running into an object that you can't hurt with your bike to avoid hurting someone or something (all of these methods I have seen performed, or performed myself, on freewheeled bikes with brakes).
    I completely agree that there are emergency measures on both fixed and non-fixed bikes that work equally well in event of rare mechanical failure. As I tried to point out in the other thread, my major issue is a general lack of skill amongst many fixie riders. IF you don't know what you are doing, flying around town on a fixie (typically with one or no brakes) during rush hour is going to be inherently dangerous (and not just to yourself), just like taking a kid on his first driving lesson down the freeway and into town during rush hour in the snow... Fun? I'm sure the thrill is great. Advisable? Probably not.

    OTOH, if you know what your are about, I have no issues with fixies (with front brake at least) - I just see more and more clueless riders on them as they increase in hipster popularity. Sure, there are plenty of clueless riders on geared bikes too, but they would be 10x more deadly on fixies!

    Note, I'm NOT trying to support tghe "irresponsible/rude" accusations, just weighing in on the fixie issue in general. Sounds like most everyone posting up in favor of fixed knows how to ride, and aren't jerks. However, the fact you're on this board pushes the general level of expertise up a few notches over the general public.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilScience
    Note, I'm NOT trying to support tghe "irresponsible/rude" accusations, just weighing in on the fixie issue in general. Sounds like most everyone posting up in favor of fixed knows how to ride, and aren't jerks. However, the fact you're on this board pushes the general level of expertise up a few notches over the general public.
    Good point about the experience represented on this board.
    I don't really like the thread title any more either.
    That seems to be what is offending people the most.

  97. #97
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    DSB, if you're concerned about chain strength w/ relation to failure from braking, you need to think about the issue a little bit more. Which puts more strain on a chain?

    Mashing up a hill with positive traction, whether on pavement or dirt?
    Or the force req'd to lock up the rear wheel?

    You generate a hell of a lot more drivetrain stress while climbing then while braking.

    Personally, I'm much more concerned about popping a chain while climbing at my max, than I am while descending.....think about it.

  98. #98
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    I just got finished reading A Treatise On Toleration by Voltaire.
    Great read. I suggest it to anyone that hasn't already read it.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomimcmillar
    DSB, since you're all about making a proper argument, do you have any statistics to back up your 'unsafe' & 'irresponsible' claims?

    Like, how many accidents involved/were caused by brakeless fixy vs a 'normal' two brake equipped bicycle? You know, like using facts rather than perception to support your claims? If someone swings open a car door, or jaywalks out in front of me, it doesn't matter what sort of brake my bike is equipped with, someone's going down, most likely me.

    Along the line of your 'debate', I would posit that all freeriders should also be banned. I've even seen pictures & video of them doing wall rides, rail slides, stair gaps, etc in an urban environment. Do they or don't they put the general public in as much danger as a street fixy rider in that same urban environment? By 'vandalizing' existing structures much like skateboarders are perceived to, aren't your urban freeride brothers as much of a blight on the image of cycling as an urban brakeless fixy rider?

    Or is that A-O-K, because you think it's cool? I mean, that shite looks dangerous and out of control so it should be banned! I've even ridden down some stairs at the local college campus, maybe even caught some air off a few, so I guess I'm as much of an expert in your genre as you are on fixed wheel bikes with your two fixie rides.

    By constructing your ramps and bridges and stunts out in the local forest, aren't you also a blight on the image of cycling when viewed thru the eyes of some crunchy tree hugging hiker? Why can't you just enjoy nature as it is?

    From your original post, you said it yourself:
    "To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations."

    So, why exactly, are you singling out one very small portion of the culture?
    I agree with everything you said.

    Nope no real facts to back me up. I haven't seen any from yall (yeah I said it) either.
    That's why I'm willing to change my opinion If I hear some.

    Experienced FR guys generally try to stay away from people. FR is really dangerous (can't argue that) but when done right it's not dangerous to unsuspecting pedestrians unless they can't read a trail sign. We have also brought about a Rennaissance of sustainable trailbuilding methods. That is, of course, due to the insane terrain in BC and the extreme lengths required to build trails there.

    I do 90% of my riding on one of 5 legal, privately owned, FR-specific trail systems. One of those I've located, dealt with logistics, and developed ground-up mostly myself (It's blown up now and I have lots of help). Two more of those I've helped a lot in the construction. One is too far for me to have gotten much chance to help and the fifth is a ski-resort. I've even torn down poorly-constructed trails that I would have loved to ride and I'm REALLY picky about wood-work. So you're preaching to the choir. I do believe that a well-maintained FR bike is more idiot-proof than a well-maintained no-brake fixie.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention my major is Sports and Recreation Management with a focus in Facility Design and Planning (almost done). I want to work on bike parks for a living.

    There is a certain amount of urban riding that is not damaging to architecture but no reasonable person can argue the impact of grinding/stalls. Most of that stuff should be confined to parks.

    I agree that my title is poor but the content of my posts in no way ignorantly or indescriminately singles anyone out. In fact I have given the pro-fixie side plenty of arguments to back thier's up and have changed my mind on a few things.
    Last edited by DeepSouthBuilder; 02-22-2007 at 09:19 AM.

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    Oh if we could only rewind and re-name a thread......
    Bike Building and Painting

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