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  1. #1
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    fixed rookie question

    I have paul word hub that I would like to put into fixed use. I have read the following:

    "Surly track cogs are threaded the same as a BMX freewheel (1.37 x 24tpi right-hand threads). This means that they will fit on single-speed rear hubs, as well as BMX freewheel hubs, but this application is not recommended. Track cogs are meant to work on track hubs only."

    Can someone tell me how to handle this...can I do it anyway? Do I need a lock ring or can I just thread on one of these cogs and give it a shot. That comment makes it sound like I need a track hub which makes this fun project not as accessible for me. Any and all comments welcome. I would love to order a cog today!! Thanks
    "Take it easy, if it's easy...take it again"

  2. #2
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    I've only been riding fixed since February, but here're my thoughts. You're gonna get people telling you that it's a death trap to do this, but this is how it was done before there were track hubs, and I haven't had any problems or heard of any problems with it other than speculation. I guess that's why it's called a suicide hub. You can use your Paul hub, which is threaded like a standard freewheel hub. Get a cog and use the rotafixa method to secure it. http://204.73.203.34/fisso/eng/schpignone.htm. You'll get way more torque than using a chain whip. I would recommend putting a rag between your chain and the BB shell to protect the paint, though. I also add a cheapo bottom bracket lockring for added safety (hammer and flat-head to install). Make sure to loctite or grease the cog before putting it on. I use grease. I haven't had any problems with this, and I often skip/skid without any slipage of the cog. I found an inexpensive source for cogs with free shipping: http://www.houseoftrack.com/. I would get the Shimano Dura Ace, or the Euro Asia cog, since they're machined and have a nice thick base. The Soma and Surly cogs supposedly are a bit too thin, which can strip your hub threading, but then I've never tried them, so I dunno. I just use a Eura Asia cog.

  3. #3
    FTM
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    I would reccommend blue Loctite and not grease. Grease is designed to make the cog easier to take off while loctite will help it well... lock to the hub. The first link Jinks supplied seems like an excellent way to get the cog on nice and tight, although I have never tried it. You can also check out Matt Chesters article inder the 'The no-lockring kludge' section at 63xc.com.

    Have fun, it can be addictive.

  4. #4
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    Good job! Legal stuff

    Surly and others have to add that statement to cover themselves. A "true" reverse lockring threaded hub is preferred, but not absolutely necessary.....I use both on several bikes/Surly hubs and a Paul, and haven't been able to make 'em come loose, and I'm a big old stompin' lad.

    I use grease on the "proper" fixie Surly hub, and a dab of blue loctite and a BB lockring on the "non-proper"/"suicide" hubs.

    DuraAce and EAI cogs only here.
    Last edited by xrmattaz; 05-29-2005 at 04:40 AM.

  5. #5
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    thanks

    Thanks guys for the EXCELLENT info! This is always the best place for questions.
    "Take it easy, if it's easy...take it again"

  6. #6
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    now...

    Quote Originally Posted by cjpavlov
    Thanks guys for the EXCELLENT info! This is always the best place for questions.
    now...get out there and ride! If you try to coast, the bike will immediately remind you that you can't.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    now...get out there and ride! If you try to coast, the bike will immediately remind you that you can't.
    LOL, without a lockring, you'll be able to coast pretty easily if you 'try'!
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  8. #8
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    The reason for NOT mounting a cog on a non-track hub is simple: if you try to slow yourself down via "reverse pressure/pedaling", you will spin the cog right off the hub and have no more motive connection to your back wheel. Get a track hub for fixed gear use! It'll have a second, slightly smaller set of reverse threads below the threads for the cog/freewheel and accept a LOCK RING. I rode a fixed track bike as a messenger in NYC for 5+ years and never had a problem. I would have been killed the very first day out there had I set up a fixed rear wheel without the lockring on there. If you intend to ride on a track - you'll be required to have a proper set-up, and if you ride out in the real world and wish to get the full benefit of a fixie - do it right! The hubs can be gotten cheap - as little as $35, and a nice surly for about $75.
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  9. #9
    hispanic mechanic
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    Yeah, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    LOL, without a lockring, you'll be able to coast pretty easily if you 'try'!
    Although you are correct to a certain extent, I've seen successful "kludges" a la xrmattaz both on and off road. In fact I myself started out riding fixed off road on my 'cross bike with just such a beast. Had it not been for the cheap stamped cog spinning the threads off of my hub (also cheap, and old, to boot,) I'd still be doing it.
    While a dedicated fixed hub is definitely best, I will be "converting" an old Surly free/free hub to fixed using EAI cogs, a BB lockring, and a bit of Loctite 242 in the near future.

    the los
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  10. #10
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    Ordered a Dura-Ace cog!

    Thanks for the input everyone. I am going to run the locktite and lockring setup. I will have my wife post a message if I die with this method (to aid in future discussions of course)

  11. #11
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    Good job!

    Make sure the threads on all are extremely clean (denatured alcohol or the like), tighten 'em down good and attempt a little self-restraint! (let the dang Loctite set up over night, at least).

    Then go ride it like ya stole it!


    Quote Originally Posted by cjpavlov
    Thanks for the input everyone. I am going to run the locktite and lockring setup. I will have my wife post a message if I die with this method (to aid in future discussions of course)

  12. #12
    hispanic mechanic
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    Oh, and another thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by xrmattaz
    Make sure the threads on all are extremely clean (denatured alcohol or the like), tighten 'em down good and attempt a little self-restraint! (let the dang Loctite set up over night, at least).

    Then go ride it like ya stole it!
    When you're ready to change cogs ('cause you wore the first one out from ridin' it like ya stole it) use some heat to break the Loctite loose. Most shops will have a small brazing torch (or at least a crack torch!) to heat the thing up. Torch it, then carefully remove the lockring and cog.
    There you go!

    the los
    Whiskey is my yoga.

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  13. #13
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    Good job! Agree!

    I had to use a little heat AND padded jaws on my vice to unscrew a loctited-DuraAce cog from a Surly hub recently. Actually bent the hell out of a Park chainwhip trying to get that cog off! Threads on both cog and hub were still perfect, but that dude was on there nice and snug!

    Lot's of backpedalling and offroad "drifting", and she never budged in one year. I'm still 6'5" and two hundred twenty-ish.


    Quote Originally Posted by sslos
    When you're ready to change cogs ('cause you wore the first one out from ridin' it like ya stole it) use some heat to break the Loctite loose. Most shops will have a small brazing torch (or at least a crack torch!) to heat the thing up. Torch it, then carefully remove the lockring and cog.
    There you go!

    the los

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrmattaz
    I had to use a little heat AND padded jaws on my vice to unscrew a loctited-DuraAce cog from a Surly hub recently. Actually bent the hell out of a Park chainwhip trying to get that cog off! Threads on both cog and hub were still perfect, but that dude was on there nice and snug!

    Lot's of backpedalling and offroad "drifting", and she never budged in one year. I'm still 6'5" and two hundred twenty-ish.
    LOL, see, if you just use the right hub(s), tool(s) and lockring(s), there'd be no problem! I like being able to break it all down with simple tools and no 'padded jaws(!)' or ball-pean hammers (JK) type method... Guess I'm sort of a weenie about all this, as it'd be one thing with brakes on a trail (hell, just the brakes part!) but you'd not have caught me dead in Manhattan traffic without a "proper" lockring type hub, trying to make a living 10 hours a day 5 days a week on a machine that relied on loctite to keep me connected to my only means of going and stopping. Even if I only weighed 165, I bet I generated a bit of power after 5-6 years on the job . All those sprint-starts from red lights and subsequent decelerations.... 10's of 1000's of times. Nutty.

    That said, sounds like the cog/lock on the same threads can work OK, just make sure you have alternate means of stopping!
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

  15. #15
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    Good job! Yep!

    Took the "proper" lockring and cog off my faux Surly roadie hub today without resorting to heat or wrenchage. Just a little spin of the Hozan got her right off there!

    Lefty loosey and righty tighty and righty loosey and such......

    I agree with you mate! Proper fixie hubs are a wonderful thing, but I have others that would lay wasted if I didn't have some blue loctite around!



    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    LOL, see, if you just use the right hub(s), tool(s) and lockring(s), there'd be no problem! I like being able to break it all down with simple tools and no 'padded jaws(!)' or ball-pean hammers (JK) type method... Guess I'm sort of a weenie about all this, as it'd be one thing with brakes on a trail (hell, just the brakes part!) but you'd not have caught me dead in Manhattan traffic without a "proper" lockring type hub, trying to make a living 10 hours a day 5 days a week on a machine that relied on loctite to keep me connected to my only means of going and stopping. Even if I only weighed 165, I bet I generated a bit of power after 5-6 years on the job . All those sprint-starts from red lights and subsequent decelerations.... 10's of 1000's of times. Nutty.

    That said, sounds like the cog/lock on the same threads can work OK, just make sure you have alternate means of stopping!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenzx
    LOL, without a lockring, you'll be able to coast pretty easily if you 'try'!
    Not likely. It takes a fair bit ot torque to bust a track cog loose, and you'd need to apply that torque with your legs, against the normal pedaling direction, and against the mechanical advantage the small cog has turning your big chainring.
    Hell, I used a bit of loc-tite on my track cog on an old style 1x1 hub, and the shop couldn't get the bugger off until they soaked it in wd40 and left it out to bake in the sun. Then they put the cog in a vice and used the legearage of the whole wheel and two guys pulling in concert to get it off. No WAY I could apply that much torque going against a 2-1 mechanical advantage with my legs; it would simply have lifted my body up into the air.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fungazi
    Not likely. It takes a fair bit ot torque to bust a track cog loose, and you'd need to apply that torque with your legs, against the normal pedaling direction, and against the mechanical advantage the small cog has turning your big chainring.
    Hell, I used a bit of loc-tite on my track cog on an old style 1x1 hub, and the shop couldn't get the bugger off until they soaked it in wd40 and left it out to bake in the sun. Then they put the cog in a vice and used the legearage of the whole wheel and two guys pulling in concert to get it off. No WAY I could apply that much torque going against a 2-1 mechanical advantage with my legs; it would simply have lifted my body up into the air.
    If someone were willing to set up the test for me - I'd wager I'd get that cog to come loose within a few days of hard riding. No lockring (either the "normal" track style/reverse threaded, or the kludge/fludge/whatever) holding that cog on, and mechanical advantage or not - it'll come off if you only have backpedaling to slow you down. I know. I blew a frickin' cheap lockring & cog off an old Suzue track hub, that was assembeled "correctly" and should have been fine. Looked like the lockring threads were crap....
    "It's better to regret something you HAVE done, than something you haven't..." -

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