Results 1 to 49 of 49
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210

    Experimental Prototype titanium chainrings???

    They're a small bicycle component shop in Sweden which produces titanium and aluminum chainrings and other goodies, taking on full custom projects too.

    Matthias Hellore, the owner, is tentatively making me a custom 34T titanium chainring similar to the one in the below photo, with a Middleburn spline. The teeth will be profiled, and there will be holes drilled where you see the black dots. The black dots were placed by me to explain to the shop manager what I wanted... The holes will be countersunk on both sides, and the chainring will be able to be flipped in case I wear it out.

    Their asking price for this custom piece is 85 Euros ($111.00) I'd like to know if any one else has ordered from them, and was pleased with their quality and precision.

    Thanks!

    P.S. Here's the site: Experimental Prototype
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Experimental Prototype titanium chainrings???-matthias-hellore-ti-chainring.jpg  


  2. #2
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: driver bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,433
    I ordered a chainring from them. Communication was good and I was happy when the ring arrived.

    I did not ask for it to be polished so it was raw Ti (unlike the above pic). I have a picture somewhere, if I find it I I will post it.

    Precision wise: I ordered a 386 bolt pattern and it was spot on.

  3. #3
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: driver bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,433
    Here you go:


  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Thanks, driver bob...

    I've decided to place my order, and am having them copy a Boone "spiral design" chainring in titanium.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Experimental Prototype titanium chainrings???-boone-34t-titanium-chainring-middleburn-spline-2.jpg  


  5. #5
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: driver bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,433
    Nice, be sure to post a pic when it arrives.

  6. #6
    The need for singlespeed
    Reputation: zaskaranddriver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    973
    That sure is a fine looking chainwheel, but isn't the tooth profile a little low?

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: atom29's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    318
    ^ I thought the same thing.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bikeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    3,801
    I have bought a couple of things from him as well. Communication and pricing are good. The rings are I believe water jet cut, which is cheaper than milling. The teeth profile does look low, but I have not had an issue with it. I had him make a 28t XTR splined ring which I used a bunch, and then it folded on me. I contacted him and he sent me a new beefier version for free, so good CS for me. I have a couple of other rings I have not used yet. Below is a picture of a 32t ring to mount directly on a Surly Mr. Whirly crank. Haven't tried it yet, but hopefully soon.

    For a splined ring, I worry about the rigidity, as the material is not very thick.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Experimental Prototype titanium chainrings???-img_3379.jpg  


  9. #9
    one chain loop
    Reputation: fishcreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    how long is the wait to get your orders?
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    6-8 weeks, being that they're making it just for me.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    17
    ... very high price!

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    bikeny... I'll ask them to make me a beefier version once they confirm receipt of the funds. Good input, and thanks.

    Ludodee... If you know of another shop which will make a full custom titanium chainring to the customer's specs for $111.00, do let us know.

  13. #13
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,198
    Quote Originally Posted by Drdan View Post
    bikeny... I'll ask them to make me a beefier version once they confirm receipt of the funds. Good input, and thanks.

    Ludodee... If you know of another shop which will make a full custom titanium chainring to the customer's specs for $111.00, do let us know.





    That price is for the thin plate version no? I would expect a healthy uptick in the price if it is constructed out of thicker material.

  14. #14
    (was) Big in Japan
    Reputation: TheSingleGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,006
    There are too many syllables in that company's name.
    Ride.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: crazy8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    802

    Good Custom Rings

    I've stocked and used E|P Ti rings for several years without issue. I've never had problems with fit, performance or durability which is excellent. The 2 photo's of unfinished rings were taken by Mattias of E|P.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Experimental Prototype titanium chainrings???-ep-ti-rings.jpg  


  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    That price is for the thin plate version no? I would expect a healthy uptick in the price if it is constructed out of thicker material.
    Oscar the shop manager just got back to me... The price for the beefier version will be the same; 85 Euro, or $111 U.S., and they will try to faithfully copy the Boone spiral chainring with the scalopped edges and long teeth. I'll post a photo when it's received.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Krankensteine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    100
    Please keep us informed on how this purchase goes. I would be very interested in the same ring your having made.

  18. #18
    Never trust a fart
    Reputation: frdfandc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    4,181
    Those who are using these, what is the timeline on wear?

  19. #19
    one chain loop
    Reputation: fishcreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    Quote Originally Posted by Drdan View Post
    Oscar the shop manager just got back to me... The price for the beefier version will be the same; 85 Euro, or $111 U.S., and they will try to faithfully copy the Boone spiral chainring with the scalopped edges and long teeth. I'll post a photo when it's received.
    sweet, i made a similar inquiry too and asked if it is feasible to do it in aluminum. a matching chainring and cog will be so nice.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  20. #20
    GTaholic
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    760
    Hi its me who owns E|P, Ive been MTBR member a while now and love to make bike related stuff.

    Hopefully the OP will like my stuff as others have done in past, how can I keep the prices low?
    Easy reply - no mortgages on big CNC machines or big shop rent.
    I have only one small CNC machine and two lathes, thats all.

    Of course I own one CAD computer with Solidworks in it, paid for in full.

    My in house machining capability is limited and in 2012 I try to make it part time, so the delivery time is longer than usual.

    Hope you all will be satisfied in the end.
    Experimental Prototype

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1
    And so have i, Oscar Ekstam Order Manager @ EP, also found my way in to this tread. And one sad response to Drdans order:

    "We have now made a deeper investigation on the fact of making the chainring like Boones. And we can not make it thicker than 2,2mm (0.080 inch) and sadly not with scalopped edge. This is due to that it would be a plagiarism to Boones chainrings. We can however make it with the cut out swooping/swirl and with the Middleburn spline."
    So now you all know.

    And for Fishcreeks question; Yes we can do it in Aluminum as well and also for Shimano XTR spline. Ill answer you more directly in your mail.

    If any other member have any questions or want to order, just send me a mail (youll find it at our website).

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: atom29's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    318
    Boone dosn't even make chainrings any more. Who cares? It's not like it would be an exact copy. There are lots of companies making almost the same stuff. It's not like they have their design patented. Boone won't go all Specialized on you and sue your pants off.

  23. #23
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,198
    80 thou thick. Who wants to be the capsule monkey?

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Talking it over with Houston Control at this point... Will keep you informed; over and out!
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by atom29 View Post
    Boone dosn't even make chainrings any more. Who cares? It's not like it would be an exact copy. There are lots of companies making almost the same stuff. It's not like they have their design patented. Boone won't go all Specialized on you and sue your pants off.
    Some of Bruce Boone's designs are patented, and rightfully so (look at that incredible "swirl patterned" chainring). To get permission to use/copy one of his designs, a licensing fee will be paid to Mr. Boone. All is in the works, and I'll let everyone know the details once things are worked out.

  26. #26
    offroader
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Drdan View Post
    Some of Bruce Boone's designs are patented, and rightfully so (look at that incredible "swirl patterned" chainring). To get permission to use/copy one of his designs, a licensing fee will be paid to Mr. Boone. All is in the works, and I'll let everyone know the details once things are worked out.
    I'd love to see how things go. I would be interested in some more boone (boone clone) stuff as well.

  27. #27
    GTaholic
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    760
    Boone stuff is and are always the number 1 in my book.

    Then some of you think if water jet cutting is cheaper than milling, the answer is NO, you are producing different bits all the time, very rarely theres more than 2 same parts in a batch there I can program the use of all 4 cutting heads in same time and then save time.

    The material price has skyrocketed in past 2 years, in Sweden you obtain 1 kg Grade 5 (6al-4V) for around 200 euro, I ordered 66 kilos in last half of 2010, you can think of how much money its here.

    Anyway, I and Bruce Boone will make a agreement that fits both of us, I will produce stuff that YOU wants, the downside nowadays is lead time, currently 6-8 weeks as I have some other projects in the pipeline like repairing carbon stuff for insurance companies.
    Experimental Prototype

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    ...
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: metrotuned's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,806
    It's clear there is a demand for Boone titanium chainrings and cogs. He's a designer and currently a jeweler that uses CNC technology. Many have and will copy but all fail unless they can elevate Boone's work to a higher level. Good on those that made efforts to contact Boone. I've owned and run a 20T cog, 18T ISO fixed gear cog, and a 48T ceramic coated titanium 144BCD track chainring. The product is gorgeous and rarely have I seen such organic design introduced into a product.

    If you guys are looking for similar cogs, JBC sells Boone'esque cogs on the 'bay under seller, "bikermgj". I have a 20T. The JBC cogs are in stainless and three pieces just like Boone's cogs were. Tack Welded, not pinned, though. The quality is OK, but I actually prefer a one piece CNC piece like a Chris King stainless. The JBC doesn't compare to the Boone aesthetically, but functionally, it's OK.
    Creative Producer, Will of the Sun, Platform Pedal Shootout 1M+ views WoS

  30. #30
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,198
    Need someone to produce a Ti ISO cog. Anyone? Please.

  31. #31
    Low Rep Count
    Reputation: 1SPD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,958
    ?????? no updates?????

  32. #32
    GTaholic
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    760
    Hi there, Im still here, have some exams that are high on my to-do lists, currently Im 2 months behind my schedule.

    Im the only one to blame as I was overoptimistic in my time estimates and a very tough after christmas sickness, you know the known disease of noro/calici viruses that are floating around the kindergartens nowadays, unfornutately I have four small kids that are in kindergartens on weekdays, until now Ive been at home with any kid in over 1 month of 2 months.

    Im sorry!

    But other side I may found a machinist who are willing to undertake the machining of selected Boone chainrings.
    Experimental Prototype

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210

    UPDATE: My 10 month odyssey

    Around Christmas time last year, I asked Experimental Prototype if they could copy a Boone titanium 34T chainring. They said they could, although I'd have to wait a bit. They said they could make me one in aluminum right away, and I very clearly let them know that I am only interested in titanium. They agreed and I promptly sent them the 100 EUROS as requested.

    I let MTBR forum know about the project, and a few forumites chimed in that the Boone chainring is licensed. I then brought Mattias of Experimental Prototype and Bruce Boone into an agreement, and the order was "in the works". E.P.s website has a February 2012 blog mentioning his agreement with Mr. Boone to make TIANIUM chainrings, and Mattias himself chimed in on MTBR a few times.

    Mattias and his former manager, Oscar Ekstam were 100% informed as to exactly what I wanted, and detailed images were sent, along with whatever Mr. Boone may have supplied them.

    Every couple of months I would check in, being that I was promised the chainring by April 2012. At one point, Mattias offered his apologies, and said that Mr. Ekstam, jis manager, was laid off. I then explicitly reiterated what we agreed upon, and Mattias once again promised satisfaction. A few months went by again, and Mattias told me that he was really sick, so there were inevitable delays. I waited again, and Mattias finally let me know that yhe chainring would soon be sent to me here in Italy.

    A couple of weeks ago, I again requested an update, and was informed that the chainring was being coated! I asked what type of coating was being applied, since I most clearly requested a mirror finished surface. Mattias then dropped the bombshell that the chainring was being made in aluminum...! I am completely flabergasted at this point. Mattias added that as soon as he received the chainring, my money would be refunded. I didnt receive any "sorry about that", my mistake, etc. as would be the norm for ANY business or service. It's been almost 10 months since the order was placed.

    I sent Mattias an e-mail a few days ago and he asked me if I had received the chainring. I then asked him from where it was sent, the name of the carrier, and the tracking number. No response... No longer amused with all these red herrings Ive been thrown (pun indended). For Mattias to put this off as business as usual is patently absurd.

    Caveat Emptor guys!

  34. #34
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: driver bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,433
    Ah cr@p, sorry to hear that. My experience with EP and Mattias was nothing but good.

    Sorry to read you are out of money (and time).

  35. #35
    GTaholic
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    760
    Daniel, you paid the money and should receive a proper good, of course but the problem was I and my order manager havent informed you thorough during order process and I have had some serious health issues, hopefully ironed out now but in 3 years when doing that for a living I have had three including you as unsatisfied customers if I recall right.

    Sorry.

    You as customer should not wait that amount of time when I said 4-6 weeks or something like it.
    Anyway full refund was done this morning.

    /Mattias
    Experimental Prototype

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Good enough Mattias; thanks for the refund... I have no doubt you make excellent products. Pay more attention to your customers, and things will go better for EP business wise.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: crazy8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    802

    E|P 110/34t Chain Ring

    DrDan, I wasn't privy to the details of your order, but I did apply the finish to it and mailed it out to you in Italy. The package was sent USPS 1st Class and you should have received it unless it's hung up in Italian Customs. I will find the mailing receipt try to find the status of your ring.

    Concerning the ring being made using 7075 Al. The ring has a new coating process that should give the ring near ti durability. The finish is a double layer of high performance ceramic. The base ceramic, which is harder than chrome plate goes by the name Chromex is applied and cured after which it's etched and a second extremely durable coat of ceramic is applied. The process is not a cheap sales gimmick, so I hope you receive it soon, and please give feedback if you decide to keep it. I guess you will work this out with Matt. I don't have a photo on this computer but will post later today.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Experimental Prototype titanium chainrings???-008.jpg  

    Experimental Prototype titanium chainrings???-001.jpg  

    Last edited by crazy8; 10-13-2012 at 04:34 AM.

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Thanks for your input, crazy 8...

    I was quite impressed a few years ago when I saw a spiral designed titanium Boone chainring, and was frustrated when I could not find one for sale, even if I offered a nice premium for one. I then explored the possibility of having one made for me, and was delighted that I found EP, and Mattias and Oscar took on the project.

    It is to be placed on a Moot's frame with anything and everything in titanium that is better in titanium, including most bolts, axles, stem, titanium railed saddle, seatpost, nipples (TWT), fork, handlebars, and even a specially prepared Van Nicholas bell is. My only choice for a chainring was a Boone 34T, and the really nicely machined and designed Homebrewed titanium 34T. Mr. Boone's organic design grabbed me hook, line and sinker as it were. I also wanted it bare metal, and mirror polished...

    I had no idea that my special ti chainring project was to be substituted for aluminum, and was also convinced that the chainring was being made in Sweden. I do purchase many items on e-Bay U.S.A., and am well aware that many sellers no longer send items to some 3rd world european countries, and have even singled out Italy, a G10 country. Pilferage has been a big problem since a few years ago, so I was a bit surprised that Mr. Hellore didn't inform me as to the changed game plan as it were... I would have declined the change of materials, and even if I did accept the alternative chainring, I would indubitabl have requested a registed, insured priority delivery, and would have gladly paid any price difference.

    If and when the item arrives, I will send it by registered insured mail to an address of choice as directed by Mr. Hellore. Your chainrings look extremely well made, and I do not doubt your durabilty claims. I do trust that you can relate to my disappointment though. If I were to order titanium headers and exhaust for a sports car, I would not be pleased if, after a 10 month wait, was informed that a stainless steel system was in transit.

    The wait for any custom fabrication is the easy part for me, and I have all the patience in the world for items that I regulary special order, particulary if given a "ballpark time frame". I highly respect the craftsmen that can make functional works of art like yourself.

    I wish both you and Mattias a successful collaboration, and thank you again for your post.

  39. #39
    GTaholic
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    760
    It all boils down to misunderstanding between me and and my order manager Oscar, but anyway, damage is done and I will try to make my best next time if any.

    The chainring IS made in Sweden but coated at my expense in USA.
    Experimental Prototype

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Mattias, I wish you and EP the very best. I do believe there was a communication problem between you and Oscar, as e-mails between us will verify. When you told me about the problem with Oscar however, I did insist on titanium, and you agreed -- the communication was crystal clear. If you want to take on the original order, I'm still game, regardless of the time involed. If not, I understand, and the chainring made by craze8 will be promptly returned as stated, once it arrives in Italy. I have no doubt it will sell as quicky as it's offered for sale.
    Last edited by Drdan; 10-13-2012 at 06:58 AM.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: crazy8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    802
    Thank you DrDan. I understand the situation now and your gracious response is appreciated. Many who purchase Ti rings are looking for the longevity that ti has over Al and my coating process should give similar performance in that regard. And the overcoat is titanium metallic.

    I'd like to see a photo of your Moots when you finish the build, sounds awesome. I have a friend in Madrid who wanted a single ring crankset and ring for a 1x10 set up. I've not had many calls for one gear in EU but I think one day it will catch on.

    I checked the tracking on the ring this morning which only reported it leaving Chicago. I will PM you the numbers in case you need them.

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Too bad you didn't take a photo of it after it was coated... I'm sure the chainring would have a few interested buyers way before it arrives here. The rings shown in the above photos look awesome!

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: crazy8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    802
    The 5 bolt 110mm 34t in the photo's is the one sent to you Dan. The others are all 104/32t coated with the same dbl ceramic finish. With the process on Chromex for the base I can use any of the colors available as the top coat. The one sent to you has a titanium metallic ceramic applied.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by crazy8 View Post
    The 5 bolt 110mm 34t in the photo's is the one sent to you Dan. .
    I'm reading your post with utter amazement at this point. It's like ordering General Tso's Chicken in a Chinese restaurant, and having the waiter instead arrive at the table with a Philly Cheese Steak, a side of onion rings and a strawberry shake.

    In the beginning of this very thread you can clearly see the spiral, spiderless 34T Boone titanium chainring that I had originally ordered and discussed with forumites. I specifically requested a Middleburn spline for my Middleburn cranks, detailed the desired tooth profile, etc., etc., and EP's manager took the order after reviewing the detailed description and files.



    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Posting the original e-mails would only cause further embarrassment, and would be whipping the proverbial dead horse. This has all been thoroughly entertaining for me and I'm sure more than a few forumites, but I feel that it's best to allow this thread to fade into oblivion.

    It was indeed fortuitous that EP's former shop manager, Oscar, was relieved of his duties.
    Last edited by Drdan; 10-14-2012 at 03:32 AM.

  45. #45
    one chain loop
    Reputation: fishcreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    if the price is right, i can give that 34t chainring a proper home or bike.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  46. #46
    Low Rep Count
    Reputation: 1SPD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,958
    Wow, Crazy8 did a wicked job on that ring! I love the detail work on that thing!

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,594
    Quote Originally Posted by Drdan View Post
    I'm reading your post with utter amazement at this point. It's like ordering General Tso's Chicken in a Chinese restaurant, and having the waiter instead arrive at the table with a Philly Cheese Steak, a side of onion rings and a strawberry shake.

    ...but I feel that it's best to allow this thread to fade into oblivion.
    Man, the whole thing sounds frustrating. Why is it that we have so many problems with people who make rings and cogs?

    Oh yeah, that's all we need for our SS's.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    17


    Mattias
    Can you produce 102bcd/36 or 38t chainring in this particular design?

  49. #49
    Dirt Huffer
    Reputation: AC/BC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,662
    Just stumbled on this. Cool Stuff!

Similar Threads

  1. Experimental Prototype testing ground.
    By Mattias_Hellöre in forum Weight Weenies
    Replies: 241
    Last Post: 07-29-2011, 10:38 PM
  2. Black Anodized Experimental Chainrings
    By Mattias_Hellöre in forum Weight Weenies
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-16-2009, 02:40 PM
  3. Experimental Prototype Si spider progress
    By Mattias_Hellöre in forum Cannondale
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-20-2009, 09:14 PM
  4. PAID SPAM: Ibis Titanium Prototype Cross bike - Silkkalugi
    By dizave in forum Vintage, Retro, Classic
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-15-2009, 02:16 PM
  5. Titanium Chainrings
    By mudflap in forum Drivetrain - shifters, derailleurs, cranks
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-13-2004, 08:00 AM

Members who have read this thread: 1

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2018 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.