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  1. #1
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    dishless, strength, etc

    how much stronger is a dishless wheel (using a singlespeed hub) as compared to a wheel built using a standard 8/9 speed hub? I ask because 8/9 speed hubs are a ton easier and cheaper to get used. thanks for the input

  2. #2
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    My advice is not to bother worrying about it at all. This is a theoretical debate in my opinion and while the disheless is not gonna be weaker certainly, any extra strength it may have just is not gonna translate into a darn thing on the trail.....like so much of what we debate on mtbr. Don't forget all the DH/Free riders that run dished wheels.

    I am sure building a wheel may be a bit easier with a dishless setup but then again, I dont build wheels so what do I know.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    ...Don't forget all the DH/Free riders that run dished wheels...
    Not true. Many big hit bikes use 150/160mm wide rear hubs rather than 135mm. The wider hubs build dishless or nearly dishless wheels.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Not true. Many big hit bikes use 150/160mm wide rear hubs rather than 135mm. The wider hubs build dishless or nearly dishless wheels.
    sorry...I meant "all" in the sense that "all of the DH riders that have/do run 135mm dished hubs"...not that they all (as in 100%) run dished hubs since of course nowadays there are more options for these bigger hit guys (and gals).

    But regardless, do you really think for the mere mortal single speeder (who does not build their own wheels) that it matters Shiggy?

  5. #5
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    No it doesn't matter, if you have a quality wheel build to begin with. I run a dishless single speed specific wheel, but only because I got a really good deal for the wheel.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tristan
    how much stronger is a dishless wheel (using a singlespeed hub) as compared to a wheel built using a standard 8/9 speed hub? I ask because 8/9 speed hubs are a ton easier and cheaper to get used. thanks for the input
    Do you see the trailside - or the dumpster at your local lbs - littered with broken dished wheels? How often do you hear your buddies saying "I can't ride today, broke my rear wheel again." When was the last time you read an artical in a bike magazine on "Ten tech tips to deal with the fragile nature of the dished wheel"? Dished wheels are plenty strong enough for all kinds of riding. But I would like to see an engineering analysis of dished verses not dished.

  7. #7
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    Good question.

    Quote Originally Posted by tristan
    how much stronger is a dishless wheel (using a singlespeed hub) as compared to a wheel built using a standard 8/9 speed hub? I ask because 8/9 speed hubs are a ton easier and cheaper to get used. thanks for the input
    While I am sure that a dishless wheel has inherently more strength than a dished wheel of equal quality, I too would like to know just how much stronger it really is. I use a handbuilt wheelset with Paul hubs and a WI freewheel. About a year ago, I also had a wheel built up with an ENO hub, DT competition spokes, and a Mavic 717 rim. These are some great wheels.
    About 7 years ago, I had a wheelset built up with Shimano XT hubs, DT 14 gauge spokes, and WTB Powerbeam rims. Those things put the B in bulletproof. Yeah, a little more labor intensive doing the annual hub overhaul, but still great wheels. These costs less than the single ENO wheel and I did not have to spend an additional $80 to get a freewheel that lasted more than 6 months. Looking back, if I was not fortunate enough to have the money that I have spent on the SS specific wheels, would I have been at a disadvantage of having to use those XT wheels with a spacer kit and a cog? I do not think so. In fact, I would find it hard to argue against someone that would choose to go this route for any reason.

    Brian

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianU
    While I am sure that a dishless wheel has inherently more strength than a dished wheel of equal quality...Brian
    Let's face it, for those of us who ache to build "the perfect" bike and don't let a little thing like money get in the way, one of the greatest feelings of satisfaction comes from building a bike that, in our own minds, approaches perfection.

    I don't know how far superior a dishless wheel is in the real world, but even without any finite analysis I know that dishlessness (I love that word that I just made up ) is, in fact, superior. Even if it's superiority is over the top in terms of real world riding, many people are going to want that dishless wheel for reasons only they can justify.

    People talk about the "purity" of singlespeeding. Nobody needs a dishless wheel to experience this so called purity, but the prodigal bling seeker will justify a dishless wheel in his/her pursuit of a restful night on the meandering road toward building and owning the perfect machine, quite possibly in the name of "purity."

    The more we spend, the more we have to spend to justify our investment. And the more we invest in our material possessions, the less we own them and the more they own us.

    Does Tristan need a dishless wheel? Oh hell no.

    Will we continue to buy Chris King SS rear hubs? Oh hell yes.

    --Sparty

    P.S. Let none of what I've said imply that I am inmune to burning huge sums of money before the alter of Bling Bling Bicycles, Inc.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Let's face it, for those of us who ache to build "the perfect" bike and don't let a little thing like money get in the way, one of the greatest feelings of satisfaction comes from building a bike that, in our own minds, approaches perfection.

    I don't know how far superior a dishless wheel is in the real world, but even without any finite analysis I know that dishlessness (I love that word that I just made up ) is, in fact, superior. Even if it's superiority is over the top in terms of real world riding, many people are going to want that dishless wheel for reasons only they can justify.

    People talk about the "purity" of singlespeeding. Nobody needs a dishless wheel to experience this so called purity, but the prodigal bling seeker will justify a dishless wheel in his/her pursuit of a restful night on the meandering road toward building and owning the perfect machine, quite possibly in the name of "purity."

    The more we spend, the more we have to spend to justify our investment. And the more we invest in our material possessions, the less we own them and the more they own us.

    Does Tristan need a dishless wheel? Oh hell no.

    Will we continue to buy Chris King SS rear hubs? Oh hell yes.

    --Sparty

    P.S. Let none of what I've said imply that I am inmune to burning huge sums of money before the alter of Bling Bling Bicycles, Inc.
    Hey Sparticus, I am with you bro....while I was simply answering his question, that in no way implies how I frivously spend my money to optimize my OWN satistication

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Let's face it, for those of us who ache to build "the perfect" bike and don't let a little thing like money get in the way, one of the greatest feelings of satisfaction comes from building a bike that, in our own minds, approaches perfection.

    I don't know how far superior a dishless wheel is in the real world, but even without any finite analysis I know that dishlessness (I love that word that I just made up ) is, in fact, superior. Even if it's superiority is over the top in terms of real world riding, many people are going to want that dishless wheel for reasons only they can justify.

    People talk about the "purity" of singlespeeding. Nobody needs a dishless wheel to experience this so called purity, but the prodigal bling seeker will justify a dishless wheel in his/her pursuit of a restful night on the meandering road toward building and owning the perfect machine, quite possibly in the name of "purity."

    The more we spend, the more we have to spend to justify our investment. And the more we invest in our material possessions, the less we own them and the more they own us.

    Does Tristan need a dishless wheel? Oh hell no.

    Will we continue to buy Chris King SS rear hubs? Oh hell yes.

    --Sparty

    P.S. Let none of what I've said imply that I am inmune to burning huge sums of money before the alter of Bling Bling Bicycles, Inc.
    Let us bow down before the altar of Bling-Bling. I know Sparty does....
    That said, I've built lots ( I can't count that high anymore) of wheels of the dished variety over the last 25 years for road and MTB. The main thing(s) affecting the wheel's durability are the quality of the component choices, and even more, the build process itself. If you have a good wheel builder, (s)he can make a good wheel with any parts and a great wheel with good parts. 'Nuff said on my part.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hu-man
    Do you see the trailside - or the dumpster at your local lbs - littered with broken dished wheels?
    Actually our shop rubbish pile *is* littered with dished wheels. I haven't analysed the figures but I'd say that for repair (as opposed to upgrade) we sell at least twice as many rear as front wheels, maybe even three times.

    As nearly all the rear wheels we see are geared that means they are all dished. However I don't think this is the reason they go, more to do with the other demands put on a rear wheel over those placed on a front.We don't see enough s.s. wheels to be able to comapre damaged dished rear wheels to dishless ones. One thing for sure though, using a good quality rim and branded spokes make the biggest difference.

  12. #12
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Try this:

    Take your dishless front wheel (non-disc) and lay it flat on the ground.
    Place your left foot on the rim.
    Now place your right foot on the opposite side of the rim and balance on the axle end.

    Flip the wheel over and do it again.

    Now take a gearie rear wheel and lay it drive side down and stand on it as above.

    Flip the rear wheel over, drive side up and stand on the rim.

    Finally, rebuild the rear wheel you just destroyed and do not send me the bill.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    Try this:

    Take your dishless front wheel (non-disc) and lay it flat on the ground.
    Place your left foot on the rim.
    Now place your right foot on the opposite side of the rim and balance on the axle end.

    Flip the wheel over and do it again.

    Now take a gearie rear wheel and lay it drive side down and stand on it as above.

    Flip the rear wheel over, drive side up and stand on the rim.

    Finally, rebuild the rear wheel you just destroyed and do not send me the bill.
    This does trash your wheels. One time I went through two wheelsets in a week just standing on rims.
    Last edited by Aeroplane; 01-30-2006 at 09:08 AM.

  14. #14
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeroplane
    This does trash your wheels. One time I went through two wheelsets in a week just standing on rims.
    No, you did not.

    If you had you would know that the front wheel will not be damaged and that with the drive side down the rear wheel is not harmed either.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy
    No, you did not.

    If you had you would know that the front wheel will not be damaged and that with the drive side down the rear wheel is not harmed either.
    Dang it, you saw right through my ruse.

    Out of curiosity, how often do you stand on your rims like that?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeroplane
    Dang it, you saw right through my ruse.

    Out of curiosity, how often do you stand on your rims like that?
    Only a couple of times intentionally.

    There is a high-end road wheel company that use to demonstrate the strength of their rear wheel by standing on it.

    After seeing the demo a few times I realized it was always done with the drive side down. I suspected the wheel would collapse if it was tried drive side up.

    At home I pulled out a couple of well-abused nothing special 'cross wheels that I had not used in years.

    With the DS down both rear wheels supported my weight.

    With DS up both collapsed easier than beer can on its side.

    Of course this has little to do with how wheels are stressed when ridden. May want to be careful about landing sideways with the bike turned to the left.
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  17. #17
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    For what it's worth...

    I've found dishless wheels hold up better. Noticeably better, at least from my experice. Seems like front wheels with even slight dish due to discs give me more failures than non-disc dishless fronts. I'd guess that forces generated on the front wheel differ from those in the rear due to the turning of the wheel (turning as in steering, not spinning, if you catch my drift).

    Mike

  18. #18
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    Dishless is better

    Dishless front with disc

    I can clearly feel a difference between my dished and dishless wheels. Both front and rear. I would only recomend dishless.


    Shiggy - good points.

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