Black Cat vs. Paragon vs. EBB- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    fresh fish in stock...... SuperModerator
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    Black Cat vs. Paragon vs. EBB

    which one? Looking for opinions.....

    I only have experience with Paragons.....BUT the Black Cats look marvelous

    Pros?...Cons?....Experience?..help me out here folks

    Black Cats


    Paragon


    EBB
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  2. #2
    aka baycat
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    So new bike diesease has hit you . In the same boat eventually.

    I did not like EBB but maybe it was the model on my GF Rig that was to blame. While the cons are it changes geometry of the bike, which I dont buy, and it can be creaky which was got me. I like paragon sliders and have them on my blue SS. Have not slipped on me and do not generate any noise.

    If you do go with Todd's dropouts you could have Hunter build you up a bike with them. I know Ventana is using simialr ones on their belt driven SSers.

  3. #3
    Witty McWitterson
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    I"ve been on EBB's for upwards of ten years now. never a lik of trouble. I've not used the Bushnell though, that's what the fisher was. I've never really heard anything good about 'em.

    I don't really like sliders. I just don't think it'd be easy enough to keep the wheel straight. Honestly, I've never used them though.

    If I were going custom at this point, I'd look REAAAAL hard at the swingers. They look like the cats meow. Simple. effective. Elegant.
    Just a regular guy.

  4. #4
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    Split shell EBB's are great. My sliders are fine. However, the BC dropouts would be so much nicer. They certainly build a better looking rear end on a frame. IMNSHO

    You can contact BC directly and he will sell them to your builder. I would absolutely recommend going this route. If I could handle custom prices, and be doing this right now.

  5. #5
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    Niner Biocentric

    If you already have a frame in mind and it will fit the New Niner EBB is trick and lite. I have one in my XC hard tail and have a custom Sycip being built with the niner design on the way as well.

  6. #6
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    I've got Paragon slider's. I like them a lot. Easy to set up, quiet, no need for adjustment.

    The only thing to watch out for is how they're joined to the chain / seat stays if it's a brazed frame. They're stainless, so brass won't stick. Silver brazing can work, but it isn't as strong, and I've seen the dropouts come clean off the bike. If you go with sliders, I recommend having them tig welded on. That's what the builder for my frame did.

    Which builders are you looking at?

  7. #7
    fresh fish in stock...... SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev1n
    ...

    Which builders are you looking at?
    Already picked Hunter....
    Last edited by CHUM; 10-23-2009 at 06:00 PM.
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  8. #8
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    I know a couple of people with Black Cat frames, and the dropouts are pretty bulletproof. Never owned one myself (well out of my price range), but swinging dropouts seem to me to be the best and simplest way to tension a chain. Not a fan of EBBs, personally.

  9. #9
    i ride bikez!!11!
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    I have a Black Cat also, and the dropouts are great. Super easy to set up and they don't slip or make any noise. Can't argue with that!

  10. #10
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    ebb's the cleanest, black cat's the neatest, paragon looks like a hillbilly fix.
    I won't deny they're useful and effective but as a whole assembly, they are as far from elegant as can be.
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  11. #11
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    I have used Pauls drop outs on quite a few frames with my own disc brake tabs, they work great and are very simple and inexpensive and I think singlespeeds are suppose to be simple not any extra bolts, pivets etc.

  12. #12
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    I have used Pauls drop outs on quite a few frames with my own disc brake tabs, they work great and are very simple and inexpensive and I think singlespeeds are suppose to be simple not any extra bolts, pivets etc.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM
    Already picked Hunter....
    Hunter and BC are buds. You gonna get the rigid supercrown Hunter fork?

  14. #14
    aka baycat
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    I hate you. But in a good way. When it is done let me stare at it .

    You going with his Swamper or normal triangle?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by baycat
    I hate you. But in a good way. When it is done let me stare at it .

    You going with his Swamper or normal triangle?
    If there's a line, I'll take a number. This is exactly what I wanted to do, but just can't justify (or afford) to do right now.

  16. #16
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    I love mine, super easy to set up.

    I was originally going to have Greg at patrick Cycles use Paragons but after seeing the Black Cat's at SSWC in Napa, I knew I had to have them.

    To me it makes the whole rear end look much stronger, with the paragon the sliders look like they would want to snap off if you took any hard landings, Black cat look more like a standard rear end
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Black Cat vs. Paragon vs. EBB-untitled.jpeg  

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Quote Originally Posted by thefuzzbl
    aluminium has a tendency to fail when you need it most. i.e. you end up with a bad day.

  17. #17
    Peace & Love
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    psick!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter916
    To me it makes the whole rear end look much stronger, with the paragon the sliders look like they would want to snap off if you took any hard landings, Black cat look more like a standard rear end
    I totally agree, and that's why I want them so bad. Nice bike!

  19. #19
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    I'm going to bring thIS thread back up because I'm in the same boat as to which to use.

    I have been wanting the black cat swinging DO's for a long time....however, I have recently spoken to a few builders...some like the black cats, some don't. One builder even built his personal bike with them, but now wishes he used paragons.

    The problem that he stated with the Black cats is that they're not stainless. If you want them to be slip free during more agressive riding, you need to face the contact area between the swinger, and the dropout...but not being stainless, rust happens. So basically...no rust = slipping, or rust = no slip. maybe some people have had better luck, but this statement alone has changed my thoughts on them. The design still looks great...but if they're not stainless, I'm passing.

    I have been using the Paragon sliders for a while with no problems whatsoever. I personally like them a lot..may take a bit of time to get them lined up, but they have been very realiable for me thus far.

    I'm currently debating on going with a splitshell EBB instead of paragons for my next bike. Splitshell is the only option in my book for EBB. My main worry with the EBB, however, is moving the BB center. I doubt I'll notice it, but the thought of it kinda weirds me out.

    Has anyone with an EBB found that to be a problem at all? I always hear complaints about slipping/creaking...but not about the BB being moved around.

  20. #20
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    interesting...as I'm doing some searching, seems a blog post was made about the Black Cats this day exactly. Good information on how and why.

    http://waltworks.blogspot.com/

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    Has anyone with an EBB found that to be a problem at all? I always hear complaints about slipping/creaking...but not about the BB being moved around.
    I read Walt's post yesterday, but have not read the follow up just posted. I will do that after I respond to your question.

    I have had 2 frames with split-shell EBB's. One was a Spicer that broke after 2 years. The other was a 650B OS Blackbuck I had for about 6 or 9 months. I only ever had one problem where the EBB came loose once on the road. But I had not and did not ever maintain any kind of torque spec. I just road it as often as I could. I also never had a problem with the EBB center. Moving the EBB forward to tension the chain makes the STA (or can), and I always liked that just fine. I would totally get another split shell design.

    Now I'll go read Walt's follow up post with Todd's response...

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    ...
    I'm currently debating on going with a splitshell EBB instead of paragons for my next bike. Splitshell is the only option in my book for EBB. My main worry with the EBB, however, is moving the BB center. I doubt I'll notice it, but the thought of it kinda weirds me out.

    Has anyone with an EBB found that to be a problem at all? I always hear complaints about slipping/creaking...but not about the BB being moved around.
    I've had a split shell EBB Vulture for 8 years, it's been great. I'd cheerfully buy another.

    The changing STA / seat height is a non-issue for me but my legs are long. It might bother short folks. I always run my spindle in the lower hemisphere of the shell and taking up chain stretch doesn't move the eccentric much so it's not been an issue for me.

    No slips or creaks. No way I'd buy any other EBB system, tho. I've heard too many horror stories. Too bad... chatter about lesser EBB systems seem to motivate many to paint all EBBs with the same brush, which isn't fair in my experience. Split shell or no deal... but split shell... absolutely.

    --sParty
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    We get old because we quit riding.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Split shell or no deal... but split shell... absolutely.
    I agree. Also, I'm 5'9", and no issues with EEB being low and forward.

  24. #24
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    I like the Swingers.
    Giant Trance Advanced SL0
    Black Cat 26 " SS

  25. #25
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    i haven't had an issue with my swingers, id get them again in a heart beat.

    I use Ti bolts and no loctite, just some copper anti seaze and thats it, the set screws are even ti, still working great.
    Quote Originally Posted by thefuzzbl
    aluminium has a tendency to fail when you need it most. i.e. you end up with a bad day.

  26. #26
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    On another note...the new Spot sliders are beautiful (Kobe Sliders). I got in touch with our local spot rep for the Denver area, and they stated that they are not for sale...at least not yet, as they can barely produce enough for their own bikes. If they end up getting them to a production point, I think they'll make some great dropouts. I still don't know what material they are...typical carbon steel, or stainless. My guess will be non-stainless.


  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    On another note...the new Spot sliders are beautiful (Kobe Sliders). I got in touch with our local spot rep for the Denver area, and they stated that they are not for sale...at least not yet, as they can barely produce enough for their own bikes. If they end up getting them to a production point, I think they'll make some great dropouts. I still don't know what material they are...typical carbon steel, or stainless. My guess will be non-stainless.

    That's a beautiful dropout, but it's made specifically for belt drive, which I'll personally steer clear of.

    My roommate bought that same beautiful hand-built Spot frame (well, not that exact frame... his is white) and jumped into belt drive with both feet. He and I ride SS together; we completed the Cream Puff 100 Mile race on the same race team this past July. Anyway, he got his new uber-bling hand-built belt bike last March. His trials & tribulations with the belt are documented in another thread by me here on MTBR's SS forum ("belt bummer") ... at least documented through his first belt failure. His second belt failed when we rode the Brice Creek and Trestle Creek Falls Trails four days ago on Sunday 12/5/10.

    He's going back to a chain.

    If one is willing to put up with a finicky system and perhaps add extraneous tensioners to his/her bike, then I guess the belt is something to consider. But even so, if you're a strong rider who likes to power up steep grades on your SS, you might sheer the teeth off the belt regardless. This is what happened to my buddy.

    Best of luck.

    --sParty
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    We get old because we quit riding.

  28. #28
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    I agree with your thoughts on the belt. I have two friends that have used them, but have since ditched them. A third is on his way to the same decision. They haven't had any belt failures...but they pop all the time on hard up hills. You then tension the belt to a point it doesn't pop, but your freehub bearings go bad extremely quickly.

    This dropout is designed for belt, SS chain, and geared chain. It's good for any way you'd want to ride it.

    I believe the belt CAN be a great thing for mountain bikers, but it's just not to that point yet from what many people are experiencing. They've been doing a lot of testing and tinkering with these things...and I feel these will become more legitimate for heavy SS riders in the next few years...at least I hope so. I want it to succeed really badly.

    I really like the Paragon sliders, but I too have my skepticism on long term durability as to where their weld points are. It seems they are beginning to prove themselves in long term riding with not many failures, but I think the new spot dropout looks to have burlier connection options than the paragons. There is no doubt their machining time and expense is way up there though.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gearwhine
    I agree with your thoughts on the belt. I have two friends that have used them, but have since ditched them. A third is on his way to the same decision. They haven't had any belt failures...but they pop all the time on hard up hills. You then tension the belt to a point it doesn't pop, but your freehub bearings go bad extremely quickly.

    This dropout is designed for belt, SS chain, and geared chain. It's good for any way you'd want to ride it.

    I believe the belt CAN be a great thing for mountain bikers, but it's just not to that point yet from what many people are experiencing. They've been doing a lot of testing and tinkering with these things...and I feel these will become more legitimate for heavy SS riders in the next few years...at least I hope so. I want it to succeed really badly.

    I really like the Paragon sliders, but I too have my skepticism on long term durability as to where their weld points are. It seems they are beginning to prove themselves in long term riding with not many failures, but I think the new spot dropout looks to have burlier connection options than the paragons. There is no doubt their machining time and expense is way up there though.
    I share your hope that the belt may someday be ready for prime time.

    As for the frame, it's neat that it can be used with either drive system. Of course it's unnecessary for chain use inasmuch as it's easier to disconnect or break a chain than to separate the frame stays. But at least my buddy will have the option to employ a belt if / when it ever evolves into a viable drive system.

    --sParty
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    We don't quit riding because we get old.
    We get old because we quit riding.

  30. #30
    30-ton War Machine
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    I have used the alternator drops on the now wife's Ala Carte and they work friggin' awesome! They are also powder-coated(or painted) and I haven't seen any issues with them yet. I cannot stand the look of the paragons, I just can't. I am looking forward to trying an EBB on the new Jones that is supposed to be here in a few more weeks.
    Isaac

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