Best way to convert vertical dropouts?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Best way to convert vertical dropouts?

    Yo, setting up my steel xc bike rigid and singlespeed.

    Pretty much looking for the best option to set this baby up with one gear, i'll be getting some turbines with a steel 34t chainring (maybe 32) and putting on a DMR conversion kit on the rear hub.

    What are the main differences between the DMR Tension Seeker 2 and the Simple Tension Seeker?

    Is the Surly Singleator a better option? It seems to be more expensive, i guess id rather not spend any more than i have to, but i do want a functional and neat configuration.

    I have seen some people who use vertical dropout frames without EBB or ENO's and dont use a tension device, whats with that?

    Thanks for any advice for a SS noob,
    Cheers

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Willy
    I have seen some people who use vertical dropout frames without EBB or ENO's and dont use a tension device, whats with that?

    Thanks for any advice for a SS noob,
    Cheers
    you asked for the best way, and the best way is the white industry eccentric hub. bar none.

    the axle bolts are off-center and allow the hub/wheel to rotate within the dropout. this take s up chain tension, then the bolts are snugged up. super clean look, easy setup, bullet proof dishless wheel build and some of the best built hubs available.

    eccentric bb is not an option unless you have an eccentric bb shell...you do not.

    other conversion kits work just fine if money is an object.

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  3. #3
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    I had a soulcraft tensioner and could loosen that thing up in a heartbeat on a steep climb no matter which way i had it setup....

    Build up a rear wheel with the White Ind. ENO ECC hub....those der hangar tensioners are weak for mashing gears...which is what you will be doing if this is an offroad SS your building
    "I'm supa-fly TNT, I'm tha guns of the navarone!"

  4. #4
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    the eno seems the most elegant & best way to me, and I'll be heading that way when I can afford a wheel build.

    Otherwise, if you're going the tensioner route, the rennen rollenlager gets great reviews on this forum for a tensioner.
    I can attest to the paul's melvin, works great!


  5. #5
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    I am a newbie, but here is what I have found out about the tensioners you are looking at.

    the STS is a similar design to the Rennen. I have one in front of me right now, just showed up...

    It is a set tensioner, no springs or anything. you lock it in place with wheel skewer. The tension seeker 2 and singulator are spring loaded, and use said spring to create tension. These are the ones that people often use zip-ties or rubber bands to hold in place after a period of time.


    as was said, ENO is the way to go, but I coudlnt afford it.

    Good luck

    Matt

  6. #6
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    Best way would be to find the magic ratio for your bike. No tensioner, no goofy hubs.

    After that a Rennen Rollenlager or a On-One Other Doofer springless tensioner would be the cheapest/most reliable way. As springs do springy things.

    An eccentric hub is a nice way to go for a clean look, but they are more spendy and I have heard of people rotating them in their dropouts when used with a quick-release.
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  7. #7
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    Quick Release???

    My WI ecccentric hub has 6mm allen bolts........................

    what other eccentric hubs have you seen?

    C.

    BTW, the magic ratio will not stay 'magic' when the chain stretches.
    The effects will suck, trust me.


    Quote Originally Posted by ihatemybike
    Best way would be to find the magic ratio for your bike. No tensioner, no goofy hubs.

    After that a Rennen Rollenlager or a On-One Other Doofer springless tensioner would be the cheapest/most reliable way. As springs do springy things.

    An eccentric hub is a nice way to go for a clean look, but they are more spendy and I have heard of people rotating them in their dropouts when used with a quick-release.

  8. #8
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    Eno Eccentric!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    LW,

    Unless you are 'monetarily challenged', get an ENO eccentric.
    Tensioners are never going to be the 'best' option out there.
    Cheaper, yes, but certainly not the best.

    C.



    Quote Originally Posted by Little Willy
    Yo, setting up my steel xc bike rigid and singlespeed.

    Pretty much looking for the best option to set this baby up with one gear, i'll be getting some turbines with a steel 34t chainring (maybe 32) and putting on a DMR conversion kit on the rear hub.

    What are the main differences between the DMR Tension Seeker 2 and the Simple Tension Seeker?

    Is the Surly Singleator a better option? It seems to be more expensive, i guess id rather not spend any more than i have to, but i do want a functional and neat configuration.

    I have seen some people who use vertical dropout frames without EBB or ENO's and dont use a tension device, whats with that?

    Thanks for any advice for a SS noob,
    Cheers

  9. #9
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    single speed conversion

    I've made my own horizontal dropouts and brazed them in on an old chromoly hardrock, and also have one bike with the Eno hub. Both work well, but I prefer the adjustment procedure on the Eno. Much easier. That being said, I have sometimes had trouble with the Eno allowing a big tire to contact the brake cable when rotated in the forward direction. But hey, I still like the Eno better.

  10. #10
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    There are plenty of instances where there just isn't a magic ratio that will work. Another problem with magic ratios is you're probably stuck with one ring/cog ratio. Great if it works where you ride but sucks if it doesn't. Even if you've got a couple of combos they can be a hassle to change over.

    You could consider a ghost ring if you've got the clearance but the best bet is the WI hub and then a Rollenlanger style tensioner. One other thought is to pick up a cheap used frame with horizontal dropouts. It could easily be cheaper than a WI hub and wheel build. In fact, Fetishcycles.com has a new 21" Fixation frame for $150 right now (scratched seat tube is all that's wrong).

  11. #11
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    Thanks for the replys,

    Are ENO hubs difficult to adjust with disc brakes (bb7)?

    I didnt realise the DMR STS attached to the axle, i though it just bolted on to the derailleur mount?

    The eno sounds like its the best solution, but im kinda keen not have to build up another wheel.
    Do people really have problems with tensioners moving from excessive force?

    Cheers

  12. #12
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    Tensioners are relatively cheap and easy to install. Why not try one and see how you like it? If it doesn't work to your satisfaction you're not out much. If it works to your liking then you've got it done with less work and money. There's plenty of satisfied riders using tensioners.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Willy
    Thanks for the replys,

    Are ENO hubs difficult to adjust with disc brakes (bb7)?

    I didnt realise the DMR STS attached to the axle, i though it just bolted on to the derailleur mount?

    The eno sounds like its the best solution, but im kinda keen not have to build up another wheel.
    Do people really have problems with tensioners moving from excessive force?

    Cheers
    there is an ENO specific to disc setups. not rocket science but you need to rotate not only the hub but the caliper body as well. bb7's DO work well with it by the way.

    most tensioners are a stop-gap. something to let you test the waters, the eccentric wheel is for ever...
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  14. #14
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    i never liked ENO. if it's half its price now, it might be a viable option. right now, considering how much you pay for an ENO wheel, you might want to simply find a local frame builder and ask him to weld a pair of horizontal dropouts/forkends.

    e.g.



    most likely, you end up paying less, and you have a bike that can run single speed or geared. MUCH more elegant solution.

  15. #15
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    Really, I am intrigued.

    So break down specifically how much the cost for the following is.............
    Replacement hardware (ie: dropouts)
    Welder prep and parts fitament cost
    Re-painting the whole frame (unless you can color match the old to new paint)

    That comes out cheaper than building a new wheel??
    Inquiring minds want to know.

    C.



    Quote Originally Posted by weather
    i never liked ENO. if it's half its price now, it might be a viable option. right now, considering how much you pay for an ENO wheel, you might want to simply find a local frame builder and ask him to weld a pair of horizontal dropouts/forkends.

    e.g.



    most likely, you end up paying less, and you have a bike that can run single speed or geared. MUCH more elegant solution.

  16. #16
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    One other thought. You can get a chain comprised of ALL half links. An English guy on Ebay sells them. This allows the chain to be shortened/lengthened 1/2 inch at a time instead of the normal 1 inch. This might allow you to get the right tension/magic ratio.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    Really, I am intrigued.

    So break down specifically how much the cost for the following is.............
    Replacement hardware (ie: dropouts)
    Welder prep and parts fitament cost
    Re-painting the whole frame (unless you can color match the old to new paint)

    That comes out cheaper than building a new wheel??
    Inquiring minds want to know.

    C.
    i did a frame of mine a while ago, INCLUDING shipping to and back from, single-color powdercoating, and a few other modifications (removing seatpost collar, remove cable stops, etc) of the frame, it turned out to be USD 250. it was EBB'd, so that actually adds to the cost.

    how much does an ENO wheel cost? the hub alone is 140.

    in case you want to know, the builder is spicer.

  18. #18
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    just checked the spicer website. the rates now are

    horizontal dropout conversion~~120
    spray paint~~20

    add like 20 bucks for shipping.

    total cost: 160. try getting an ENO wheel for this much.

  19. #19
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    W,

    The only thing that makes me GAG is the spray paint.
    I would not want to half ass the job...............spray paint for $20 seems ghetto to me.
    What kind of warranty on the frame/mod??
    What kind of turnaround time??

    C.

    Quote Originally Posted by weather
    just checked the spicer website. the rates now are

    horizontal dropout conversion~~120
    spray paint~~20

    add like 20 bucks for shipping.

    total cost: 160. try getting an ENO wheel for this much.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsalty
    W,

    The only thing that makes me GAG is the spray paint.
    I would not want to half ass the job...............spray paint for $20 seems ghetto to me.
    What kind of warranty on the frame/mod??
    What kind of turnaround time??

    C.
    if you wanna know talk to gene, i do know he is gonna be the cheapest option outhere (that i have seen).

    in fact after hunting ebay for a decent conversion frame for fixed gear and seeing how expensive everthing is these days, i think i might just send him and old frame i got to get "converted" the eno sure is nice but so are horzontal dropouts and any old wheel you choose.

    and btw, if it's only getting new dropouts and you wanted to keep it cheap maybe you wouldn't even have to repaint the whole frame???

  21. #21
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    FWIW, arround me (dallas/Ft worth area) a typical single color powdercoat is about 75 bucks for a chem strip/dunk and powder coat. That still brings the job to about 225, or about the same as the cost of a cheap wheel build.

    Matt

  22. #22
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    closer in cost than I thought

    MaM,

    If that is really the cost, then it it pretty reasonable.
    My only concern would be related to return on investment.
    I have spare wheels I could use, but I like having a WI FW (screw on SS specific hub).
    Nice wheel that can be used on ANY frame.
    Mine or anybody else for that matter.
    Unless the frame I had was really nice, or had sentimental value to me, the wheel would make more sense purchase wise.
    More options, and better to re-sell.
    I agree that full retail for a ENO wheel is significant.
    Just not sure I want to invest in a frame that I may or may not like in a year or two.

    C.



    Quote Originally Posted by max-a-mill
    if you wanna know talk to gene, i do know he is gonna be the cheapest option outhere (that i have seen).

    in fact after hunting ebay for a decent conversion frame for fixed gear and seeing how expensive everthing is these days, i think i might just send him and old frame i got to get "converted" the eno sure is nice but so are horzontal dropouts and any old wheel you choose.

    and btw, if it's only getting new dropouts and you wanted to keep it cheap maybe you wouldn't even have to repaint the whole frame???

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by max-a-mill
    if it's only getting new dropouts and you wanted to keep it cheap maybe you wouldn't even have to repaint the whole frame???
    only half of the rear triangle.

  24. #24
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    see previous post...........

    W,
    ...............about not wanting to 'half-ass' the job.
    unless you were going to do a color match, it would look bad IMO.
    the color match could easily cost more than just doing the entire frame in powder coat.
    is it doable, yes.
    would I consider it more cost effective than a wheel?
    personally, I would have to say no.
    especially if you don't pay full retail for the wheel.

    C.

    Quote Originally Posted by weather
    only half of the rear triangle.

  25. #25
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    As I posted above, you can get a brand new frame from Fetish for $150. Used frames with horizontal dropouts can be had for less. I'd look on Ebay, Craigs List, MTBR classifieds, pawn shops, thrift sales and the LBS. Chucks Bikes has a brand new Tsunami SS alu frame for $120 in two sizes. Replacing dropouts works but just isn't cost effective in my book.

  26. #26
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    New to the bike scene and trying to learn everything I can.

    Can sombody explane to me whats so special about this hub and why it lets you run single speed on a vertical dropout and a regular hub wont.

    Also whats a EBB?

    I understand the purpose of the horizontal dropouts is so that you can have the proper chain tension, and vertical just wont let you do this (but the 1/2 size links chain might work with some good tweaking and some luck)

  27. #27
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    Thanks for the input guys,
    interesting stuff about new dropouts, but unfortunately not a viable option for me.

    Im pretty sure i will go for the DMR STS, it looks secure the way it bolts on, and as the name suggests, simple.

    I just wanted to check as far as my proposed setup and what you guys reckon, i will be going with the turbine cranks, the STS and the DMR conversion kit.

    With a standard rear hub, what is my best bet for bottom bracket width?

    I will most likely use a Surly steel chainring and cog with a SRAM SS chain, good combo?

    Is there anything else i should be aware of with the conversion?

    Cheers

  28. #28
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    You should be able to have full adjustability with a spacer kit on the std rear hub

    LW,
    I am not familiar with the DMR Conversion kit, but using a 'spacer type' kit on a standard hub ahould allow you FULL chainline adjustability.
    I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the new Race Face products are 47.5mm chainline (std middle ring location), not sure about the Turbine.
    I thought I heard somewhere the Surly rings are narrow (or maybe I hallucinated it)
    so I would personally run a 3/32 not a SRAM 1/8 chain.
    There are two camps of logic, neither is necessarily wrong, just different opinions on application.
    Also, the conversion may force you to sell all the geared parts you own, or all the SS parts you just bought.
    Just a heads up.
    Good luck, and enjoy.

    C.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Willy
    Thanks for the input guys,
    interesting stuff about new dropouts, but unfortunately not a viable option for me.

    Im pretty sure i will go for the DMR STS, it looks secure the way it bolts on, and as the name suggests, simple.

    I just wanted to check as far as my proposed setup and what you guys reckon, i will be going with the turbine cranks, the STS and the DMR conversion kit.

    With a standard rear hub, what is my best bet for bottom bracket width?

    I will most likely use a Surly steel chainring and cog with a SRAM SS chain, good combo?

    Is there anything else i should be aware of with the conversion?

    Cheers

  29. #29
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    Don't understand

    I am under the impression that if one was to have their frame changed to Horiz. drop outs then wouldn't you still need a new rear wheel?

    I mean aren't you going to need a wheel with a solid axel that will stay put in the new drops? form what I have read over the years, if you put a quick realse axel in Horiz. drops then the thing is likely to move so I guess the cost would be:

    1. 120 for the conzersion
    2. probably 75 for the new powdercoat (the only way that I would go with this project)
    3. then any where from 100 to 300 hundred for a new solid axel rear wheel (or you can do the Surly fixxer conversion on an old shimano wheel but still costs 75)

    Definitely not cheaper than an ENO wheel

  30. #30
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    I just wanted to know if the supplied cog in the DMR conversion kit is a steel cog or an alloy cog?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by calfkiller
    I am under the impression that if one was to have their frame changed to Horiz. drop outs then wouldn't you still need a new rear wheel?

    I mean aren't you going to need a wheel with a solid axel that will stay put in the new drops? form what I have read over the years, if you put a quick realse axel in Horiz. drops then the thing is likely to move so I guess the cost would be:

    1. 120 for the conzersion
    2. probably 75 for the new powdercoat (the only way that I would go with this project)
    3. then any where from 100 to 300 hundred for a new solid axel rear wheel (or you can do the Surly fixxer conversion on an old shimano wheel but still costs 75)

    Definitely not cheaper than an ENO wheel
    new wheel? a chain tug will do. 10 bucks from any bike shop that sells bmx.

  32. #32
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    Great thread!

    I'm watching this one with interest. I have an Ibis Hakalulugi cross bike that I want to convert to SS. The idea of changing the dropouts is not too appealing because this is sort of a classic frame that I'd hate to screw up. I've thought of the Rollenger but I need new wheels anyway because I robbed the wheelset off the Ibis for my 29er (SS). So, I am really seriously considering an ENO eccentric rear hub based wheelset for it. Are there any options I haven't considered before I do it?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky rode
    I'm watching this one with interest. I have an Ibis Hakalulugi cross bike that I want to convert to SS. The idea of changing the dropouts is not too appealing because this is sort of a classic frame that I'd hate to screw up. I've thought of the Rollenger but I need new wheels anyway because I robbed the wheelset off the Ibis for my 29er (SS). So, I am really seriously considering an ENO eccentric rear hub based wheelset for it. Are there any options I haven't considered before I do it?
    you are of the right mindset. keeping the classic lines would be my pref. aesthetics over practical function in this case.

    the eccentric (as opposed to any other tensioner) will keep the smooth lines. you may get lucky with the 'magic gear' but my sucess with that has been limited and then short lived...

    i know i know enough with the white industries...fine.
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