Another eccentric bottom bracket for standard frames.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Thats great, sorry to say I just ordered mine two weeks ago and surely paid more than $125.00 to get it directly from TrickStuff.

    My question is in order to adjust the chain tension is that done with the two allen screws on the face of the BB? If so that would require you to remove the cranks in order to secure the two screws down correct?

  2. #2
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    Another eccentric bottom bracket for standard frames.

    At least two attempts have been made to use this forum as a place to introduce an eccentric bottom bracket for standard frames. Both of them seem to have failed. I have never seen either product on the market. Let me introduce another one. Unlike the others, this one is currently in production and it is ready for sale.

    Forward Components is a new company, and the eccentric bottom bracket is our first product. It is an eccentric bottom bracket that will fit any bicycle frame with a 68mm bottom bracket shell using standard 1.37"x24tpi English threads, It is for outboard bearing systems using Hollowtech 2 compatible cranks.

    There is one similar eccentric bottom bracket product on the market that is currently available. That is the well known Exzentriker from the German company Trickstuff. Unlike the Trickstuff EBB, the Forward Components eccentric bottom bracket is moderately priced at $125US.

    Have a look, and tell us what you think. A link is provided at the bottom of this posting.

    The EBB shown in the link is a tested prototype, so don't be put off by a few scratches and a rough finish. The full production version will be shown next week. We just wanted to show you what is in the pipeline before you send your Christmas wish list to Santa.

    http://www.forwardcomponents.blogspot.com/
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    Last edited by forwardcomponents; 12-04-2008 at 08:54 AM.

  3. #3
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    Looks good to me - if I didn't already have an Exzentriker then I'd be getting my order in !

    It probably wouldn't work out a whole lot cheaper for us Europeans though, if we got stung for import duty and VAT....

  4. #4
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    good on yer!!!!!

    id have one if youre selling them in the U,K,
    s-worksfsrspotbrandgiantcarbonroad bike

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenni
    good on yer!!!!!

    id have one if youre selling them in the U,K,
    They will be shipping worldwide. Anywhere and everywhere. Shipping quotes will be posted on the blog tomorrow.

  6. #6
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    Cool. I've been procrastinating on picking up the exzentriker version for a while. Glad I waited.

  7. #7
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    that would be one on my christmas list for sure. good move on enduro bearings too, i just hope it can be easily serviced without special tools.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCSEDanny
    Thats great, sorry to say I just ordered mine two weeks ago and surely paid more than $125.00 to get it directly from TrickStuff.

    My question is in order to adjust the chain tension is that done with the two allen screws on the face of the BB? If so that would require you to remove the cranks in order to secure the two screws down correct?
    I will have to post installation and adjustment details on the blog.

    The two allen screws on the face of the EBB are only there to secure the notched plate to the disc that hold the bearings.

    This is how the EBB works. Imagine a standard outboard bearing bottom bracket. It is composed of two threaded cups that thread into each side of the bottom bracket shell. Inside of each threaded cup a bearing is pressed in to support the spindle. This product is essentially the same, with one major difference. In this product, each threaded cup contains a disc. The discs are not pressed in, and are free to rotate during adjustment. Each disc has a hole bored into it, offset from the center, containing a bearing. When these discs are rotated in their cups, they throw the crank spindle backward of forward. This positioning sets the chain tension. Once in position, the discs are fixed into position by tightening six set screws located around the perimeter of the threaded cups. Not shown in the photos are the spacer rings that fit between the bearings and the inside faces of the crank arms. They fit into the large holes beneath the two screws on the face of the EBB.

    Once the crank arms are on, it would be very difficult to adjust the discs, especially on the drive side with the chainring and chainring spider in the way. So, the design incorporates a large thin disc permanently screwed onto the face of each disc. This disc is wide enough to allow a person's hands to manipulate the disc position by hand, even on the drive side with the cranks attached. You simply place your thumbs and fingers into the notches on the perimeters of the discs, and turn by hand to adjust their positions. Once the chain is tensioned correctly, you tighten the set screws on the threaded cups, and the EBB is ready for use.

    It does not slip. The set screws hold the discs in place very securely. The ordinary M5 set screws are easily replaced if they are ever lost or damaged.
    Last edited by forwardcomponents; 12-02-2008 at 09:57 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishcreek
    that would be one on my christmas list for sure. good move on enduro bearings too, i just hope it can be easily serviced without special tools.
    The only tools needed for adjustment are metric hex keys. The installation tool has two wrench flats that can be manipulated with a 36mm headset wrench. Pressing out the bearings is accomplished with a simple press or basic shop tools.

  10. #10
    Sweep the leg!
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    Nice looking component. Now I'm thinking about what frame I need to buy for it to live in...
    Authorities speculate that speed may have been a factor. They are also holding gravity and inertia for questioning.

  11. #11
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim?
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    Think you'll sell it without bearings? I've got a couple spare sets of the proper Enduro bearings kicking around already.
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  12. #12
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    Good job! Nice

    Good looking component you have there!! This will be another means by which someone can get a taste for SSing and strengthen the SS community!!

  13. #13
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    I hope to build a full susser with a Alfine hub which will require some sort of tension on a standard frame and you just solved that issue for me. Thanks. I hope it works out, it's a great idea.

  14. #14
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    my world...just...crumbled...

  15. #15
    one chain loop
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    run for your money, ernesto.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    my world...just...crumbled...
    Just think of the possibilities of running both Eno & eBB - chain tensioning, ride height, steerer angle all becomes adjustable....

    You still need half links and/or a careful selection of chainring/cog combo to get good chain tension with this eBB.

  17. #17
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    i'm in shambles...

  18. #18
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    I would certainly be interested when I spring for a new disc wheelset. Right now, I'm running 32x20 magic gear, but could reduce it to 32x18. I haven't done that yet, because that would require a tensioner.

  19. #19
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    Only for 68mm shell width? Too bad all the frames I own are 73mm. Nice stuff, but kind of a let down there.
    I sell bikes here. Check out the Blog here. Facebook.

  20. #20
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    why continue...why?

  21. #21
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    Nice EBB.

    Only complaint is the color of the blog. Red. After staring at the page for a bit, everything else looked off.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by baycat
    Nice EBB.

    Only complaint is the color of the blog. Red. After staring at the page for a bit, everything else looked off.
    Perhaps we should post a warning that prolonged visits could induce hallucinations, with a precaution against riding immediately after visiting.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by benwitt11
    Only for 68mm shell width? Too bad all the frames I own are 73mm. Nice stuff, but kind of a let down there.
    I think the Trickstuff is also limited to that. The reason is that the eccentric is taking up the space that the spacers would normally. The spindle wouldn't be long enough. You might be able to use this on a 73mm BB with an 83mm crankset and a 2.5mm spacer on each side or 5mm on the non-drive side for chainline reasons.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bstrick
    I hope to build a full susser with a Alfine hub which will require some sort of tension on a standard frame and you just solved that issue for me. Thanks. I hope it works out, it's a great idea.
    i wouldn't do that. the suspension on most frames affect the effective chainstay length while getting compressed. you'd end up either with a pretty poor working suspension or even break you chain.


    interesting bottom bracket anyways. what are the main differences to the exzentriker?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by papajoe
    i wouldn't do that. the suspension on most frames affect the effective chainstay length while getting compressed. you'd end up either with a pretty poor working suspension or even break you chain.


    interesting bottom bracket anyways. what are the main differences to the exzentriker?
    There are two fundamental differences between the Forward Components EBB and the Trickstuff EBB. Both systems use a pair of discs which rotate within threaded cups on either end of the bottom bracket shell. These discs each contain a bearing housed in an offset or eccentric bore.

    The fundamental differences are in the method that is used to adjust the bearing disc position, and then to fix the bearing disc in place once it is in position. In our EBB, there is a thin disc with notches around the perimeter attached to each bearing disc. You simply have to fit your fingers into the notches and rotate the bearing discs into position. In the Trickstuff EBB, the bearing disc is connected to an outer ring which wraps around the threaded cup. Rotating this outer ring positions the bearing disc.

    To fix the bearing discs in place, our system uses set screws located around the perimeter of the threaded cup. Once tightened, they hold the bearing disc in place. The Trickstuff EBB has a single barrel nut located within a slot in the positioning outer ring. Tightening the screw that threads into the barrel nut wedges the barrel nut against the outer surface of the threaded cup.
    Last edited by forwardcomponents; 12-04-2008 at 06:03 PM.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by forwardcomponents
    There are two fundamental differences between the Forward Components EBB and the Trickstuff EBB. Both systems use a pair of discs which rotate within threaded cups on either end of the bottom bracket shell. These discs each contain a bearing housed in an offset or eccentric bore.

    The fundamental differences are in the method that is used to adjust the bearing disc position, and then to fix the bearing disc in place once it is in position. In our EBB, there is a thin disc with notches around the perimeter attached to each bearing disc. You simply have to fit your fingers into the notches and rotate the bearing discs into position. In the Trickstuff EBB, the bearing disc is connected to an outer ring which wraps around the threaded cup. Rotating this outer ring positions the bearing disc.

    To fix the bearing discs in place, our system uses set screws located around the perimeter of the threaded cup. Once tightened, they hold the bearing disc in place. The Trickstuff EBB has a single barrel nut located within a slot in the positioning disc. Tightening the screw that threads into the barrel nut wedges the barrel nut against the outer surface of the threaded cup.
    What about using an ENO hub?
    One builds a wheel with the ENO eccentric, tighten bolts, and whalah.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    What about using an ENO hub?
    One builds a wheel with the ENO eccentric, tighten bolts, and whalah.
    Every system has it's advanages and disadvantages. Both systems are fundamentally advantageous because they offer chain tensioning systems that can be applied to any frame. No special dropouts or bottom bracket shells are required.

    I can see the main attraction of an ENO hub being the fact that you never need a half link. The main drawback of the ENO is the fact that you must build a new wheel, and that the wheel must be tensioned correctly every time it is reinserted into the frame. The other drawback that the ENO has is that you must adjust the brake caliper or pad position to accomodate the new position of the wheel when the chain stretches.

    The main attraction of the Forward Components EBB, like other EBBs, is the fact that the rear wheel never changes it's relationship to the rear brake, and it does not need to be tensioned when the rear wheel is inserted. You do not need to build a wheel to use it either. The main drawback is the fact that you may have to resort to using a half link with certain cog and chainring combinations. You also need a compatible crankset.

    It is really a matter of cost, and of rider of preference. I suspect that both systems will coexist as viable alternatives to frames with oversized bottom brackets or non vertical dropouts. The great attraction of both systems is that they allow for an almost unlimited choice of frames which can be adapted to use with fixed, singlespeed, or internally geared hubs.

  28. #28
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim?
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    This gives a much cleaner setup option for running disc brakes than the disc ENO version as well. I'm for sure interested for one on my SS.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    What about using an ENO hub?
    One builds a wheel with the ENO eccentric, tighten bolts, and whalah.
    I want mine to use two wheels, a single speed, but with a cassette cog (far easier to get perfect chainline, and to change gearing), and one with an Alfine 8 speed IGH. Oh, make that three wheels, the third will be a fixed disc hub.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    What about using an ENO hub?
    One builds a wheel with the ENO eccentric, tighten bolts, and whalah.
    when you figure out a way to do that for the $125 that this ebb costs let us know.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by forwardcomponents
    The main drawback of the ENO is the fact that you must build a new wheel, and that the wheel must be tensioned correctly every time it is reinserted into the frame. The other drawback that the ENO has is that you must adjust the brake caliper or pad position to accomodate the new position of the wheel when the chain stretches.
    and the other is that the eno can drastically alter the geometry of the bike. i have a road frame that i use an eno on to convert it to fixed and it changed the geometry of the bike noticeably. then one must use a half link to get the axle out of the eccentric curve.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  32. #32
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    I don't own any Shimano cranks on any of my 8 bikes so I have to ask about the bearings. Is there a bearing for your EBB which would be compatible with my Campagnolo or Truvativ cranks? I simply don't feel compelled to buy a crank for a minimum of $125 just for your EBB.
    Authorities speculate that speed may have been a factor. They are also holding gravity and inertia for questioning.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmucker
    I think the Trickstuff is also limited to that. The reason is that the eccentric is taking up the space that the spacers would normally. The spindle wouldn't be long enough. You might be able to use this on a 73mm BB with an 83mm crankset and a 2.5mm spacer on each side or 5mm on the non-drive side for chainline reasons.
    You can use the Exzentriker with a 73mm bottom bracket shell - you just leave out 5mm of spacers. It is designed with this in mind, therefore you need to use the spacers with a 68mm BB shell - I did find that with a 68mm shell and Shimano HT2 cranks I could get away with using only two spacers (one each side) and not the two on the driveside plus one on the non-drive side that they recommend.
    For 73mm therefore, although they state one spacer only on the drive side, you could probably get away with none at all.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    and the other is that the eno can drastically alter the geometry of the bike. i have a road frame that i use an eno on to convert it to fixed and it changed the geometry of the bike noticeably. then one must use a half link to get the axle out of the eccentric curve.
    how much? so much that the skies turned green?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    how much? so much that the skies turned green?
    enough that it negatively altered the handling characteristics of the bike until i used a half link to bring it out of the eccentric curve.

    as i clearly stated.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    enough that it negatively altered the handling characteristics of the bike until i used a half link to bring it out of the eccentric curve.

    as i clearly stated.
    Handling? c'mon. How much offset is/was there?

  37. #37
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    forwardcomponents my big question is how do you keep the two sides of the BB perfectly in phase? Even 1-degree of them out of alignment can cause premature wear on the bearings and wear spots on the spindle.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea and have been waiting for a few years for folks to make an Ex-EBB. When I had thoughts along these lines I designed a tool to adjust both sides at the same time and a connecting rod through the inside of the shell. Both of those created problems themselves so nothing rose above designs and sketches.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeine Powered
    I don't own any Shimano cranks on any of my 8 bikes so I have to ask about the bearings. Is there a bearing for your EBB which would be compatible with my Campagnolo or Truvativ cranks? I simply don't feel compelled to buy a crank for a minimum of $125 just for your EBB.
    I don't see why you couldn't buy the Enduro bearing kit for Truvativ cranks and press it in?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    I want mine to use two wheels, a single speed, but with a cassette cog (far easier to get perfect chainline, and to change gearing), and one with an Alfine 8 speed IGH. Oh, make that three wheels, the third will be a fixed disc hub.
    I like your thinking! I already have the first 2, but would like to try the third. All we need is a 135mm disc-disc hub. Put a disc rotor on one side and a Tomicog on the other and you are good to go! Unfortunately, that hub does not exist, so what other options are there? The only one I can think of is using a Surly Fixxer on a standard Shimano disc hub. But then you don't have any chainline adjustment, which may be an issue.

    Back on topic: I like the idea a lot, but I also question how you keep both bearings in perfect alignment when adjusting, especially after some use when everything is dirty and binds a little.

    Mark

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    Handling? c'mon. How much offset is/was there?
    hey man, we all know you're the resident eno fanboi extraordinaire, but relax. i'm not saying it's an inherently bad product. i just said that with a certain gearing on a road bike a half link had to be used to bring the axle out of the eccentric curve because the resulting geometry change negatively affected the handling of the bike. would this be as noticeable on a mountain bike? most likely no.

    so i was simply pointing out an issue on a particular application when using the eno, not slamming it in general. i've been using eno products for years, and the only issue i've had with the hub is that it can really bugger up the inner dropouts depending on the material, and this issue when used on a road bike. that's simply being objective, my friend.

    were you going to address my other point and show us how to build up an eno wheel for the $125 that this ebb costs?
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    All we need is a 135mm disc-disc hub.
    I like the idea of a disc / disc, but will get a disc fixed cog threaded. It is coming in the Spring from Surly.



    I have an On-One with sliding drops that will get the IGH hub, and can swap in the other two wheels when wanted / available next Spring. I have another concept / project in mind that this EBB design would work perfectly.
    Last edited by slocaus; 12-05-2008 at 09:58 AM.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    I like your thinking! I already have the first 2, but would like to try the third. All we need is a 135mm disc-disc hub. Put a disc rotor on one side and a Tomicog on the other and you are good to go! Unfortunately, that hub does not exist, so what other options are there? Mark
    This might work. No rear break though.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=449509

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    I like your thinking! I already have the first 2, but would like to try the third. All we need is a 135mm disc-disc hub. Put a disc rotor on one side and a Tomicog on the other and you are good to go! Unfortunately, that hub does not exist, so what other options are there? The only one I can think of is using a Surly Fixxer on a standard Shimano disc hub. But then you don't have any chainline adjustment, which may be an issue.

    Back on topic: I like the idea a lot, but I also question how you keep both bearings in perfect alignment when adjusting, especially after some use when everything is dirty and binds a little.

    Mark
    The blog will be updated soon. There will be an expalnation of how to adjust and align the bearings. Like the Exzentriker, there is no mechanical linkage between the parts for alighnment.

  44. #44
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    Square taper bottom bracket

    Is there a way that this EBB will work with regular square taper bottom bracket? Thanks

  45. #45
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    So what cranks will this work with? Clearly they need to be Hollowtech, but there's a statement on your blog that the cranks can't have the raised little chainring mounts. Like XT and LX cranks? Will a current model XT crankset work with this?

  46. #46
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    Three things about this eccentric that make it problematic for me. First, any ebb screws up seat to pedal relationships as you adjust it and that's more of a negative issue than having to adjust brake pads for an ENO eccentric wheel. Second, a "low throw length" will complicate setup (e.g. - require half links sometimes). And third, the requirement for using certain cranks, all of which have a large Q-factor/tread. I could live with the first two issues, but the third is a deal killer...
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    Three things about this eccentric that make it problematic for me. First, any ebb screws up seat to pedal relationships as you adjust it and that's more of a negative issue than having to adjust brake pads for an ENO eccentric wheel. Second, a "low throw length" will complicate setup (e.g. - require half links sometimes). And third, the requirement for using certain cranks, all of which have a large Q-factor/tread. I could live with the first two issues, but the third is a deal killer...
    Then run with the ENO. For me this makes sense since I've got a usable wheel laying around and I spend most of my time out of the saddle. One of these may find it's way onto a little urban beater project I've been kicking around for a while...

  48. #48
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    its all shenannigans. Just use what you see fit. As for the answer for Monogod, if $125 is economical, go for it. As for handling, learn how to ride. I take it back. Just use what you think is the best option out there.

  49. #49
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    too many eccentrics! not enough purpose built! geeeez!


    *BTW, PeT... those outboard bearing cranks have the same Q factor as regular ones... take a closer look at the crankarm itself, not just the bb axle length.
    This is why you can't use crankarms intended for an OB BB on a regular width bb (ISIS for example) because the crankarm ITSELF is shaped differently and would be running right where your chainstay is on a regular (read: non-outboard bearing) bb.

    (I've got two sets of truvativs, one OB bearings one regular, trust me while the arms OB crankarms WILL fit on the splines of the regular bb, they can't rotate!)

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    Three things about this eccentric that make it problematic for me. First, any ebb screws up seat to pedal relationships as you adjust it and that's more of a negative issue than having to adjust brake pads for an ENO eccentric wheel. Second, a "low throw length" will complicate setup (e.g. - require half links sometimes). And third, the requirement for using certain cranks, all of which have a large Q-factor/tread. I could live with the first two issues, but the third is a deal killer...
    I totally disagree with your first point. I have never noticed the geometry changes when adjusting an EBB, and that is with a standard EBB which has more throw than this unit. Maybe I am just less sensative than you, but on a singlespeed, I am not sitting that much anyway! And even if I did have to move my seat a little, I would still prefer that than having to retension my wheel everytime I took it off the bike.

    Here are my thoughts concerning your other points: There is no way around the low throw length with this setup. The BB shell is a certain diameter and the axle is a certain diameter, so that is all you have to work with. Keep in mind this is not meant to be the perfect SS setup, but rather a way to use an existing frame as a SS. The ENO hub has the same limitations. Lastly, there is no way around using outboard bearing cranks with this setup. In order to get any adjustment and keep reasonable sized bearings, they must be put outside the BB shell. Every crank manufacturer makes cranks for this type of BB, so there are many choices for cranks. Your concern about Q-factor is valid, but I never noticed a difference there either.

    In any case, it's good to have choices. Some will prefer an ENO hub, some will prefer an EBB, and still other (like myself) will end up with a dedicated singlespeed frame and not deal with either.

    Mark

  51. #51
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    This eccentric BB (an the trickstuff version) also allows you to install an IGH (ie: Rohloff or Alfine) without an external tensioner, something the Eno can't do.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    I have never noticed the geometry changes when adjusting an EBB, and that is with a standard EBB which has more throw than this unit.
    First off, I wasn't trying to indict the product, rather articulate my perceptions of its limitations. I understand that it will allow conversion of a "regular" frame and will work well for many people. Second, I'm not the only one who has to readjust saddle height and fore-aft positioning when using an EBB when changing even by a single tooth -- there's been plenty of complaint on this board about that. Maybe I ride a single speed different from the rest of you, but I spend plenty of time in the saddle (and yes, I live in the mountains), so saddle - pedal set-up is crucial. Third, I don't keep up on cranks, so maybe there is compatibility of this EBB with a road crank which would have satisfactorily narrow Q-factor (although Shimano is the worst of the lot for that).
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

  53. #53
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    If anyone is really worried about the bike geometry, they can always vary the height of each end of the bike by using different section tyres, or wind a bit more height into their front fork.

    However, seeing as none of us are Lance Armstrong, I think most of us can adapt to what is, after all, supposed to be a compromise.

    Otherwise, get your frame modified or buy a proper SS frame.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57║36' Highlands, Scotland

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    First off, I wasn't trying to indict the product, rather articulate my perceptions of its limitations. I understand that it will allow conversion of a "regular" frame and will work well for many people. Second, I'm not the only one who has to readjust saddle height and fore-aft positioning when using an EBB when changing even by a single tooth -- there's been plenty of complaint on this board about that. Maybe I ride a single speed different from the rest of you, but I spend plenty of time in the saddle (and yes, I live in the mountains), so saddle - pedal set-up is crucial. Third, I don't keep up on cranks, so maybe there is compatibility of this EBB with a road crank which would have satisfactorily narrow Q-factor (although Shimano is the worst of the lot for that).
    I was not trying to suggest you were 'weird' for noticing the saddle to crank difference. Maybe I am the weird one for not noticing? As you said, I have seen this mentioned before by others, I was just commenting that I never noticed it myself. I don't keep up on cranks either and have no idea what the Q-factor is of any cranks, so I can't help you there!

    Also a good point by itsdoable that an EBB will let you use an IGH hub without a tensioner.

    Mark

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    Also a good point by itsdoable that an EBB will let you use an IGH hub without a tensioner.
    I use an EBB to run a Rohloff, and it's propensity to squeak, slip, and bind the bearings of bottom brackets has turned me off. After much effort, I've solved my problems with that bike (I only need to make micro-adjustments anymore to deal with chain stretch), but I can't imagine using one again. I have a single speed frame that was built to use the ENO eccentric hub to avoid the negatives of the EBB and have only had good experiences with it, and I switch fairly routinely between 19, 20, and 21 tooth cassettes using a single chain without a problem. Other than perhaps an extra $100 initial cost (assuming you have a compatible crank for the EBB, if not than it's probably cheaper to buy an ENO wheel), it's my opinion that the ENO would work better for many if they want to make a "tensioner-less" SS from a standard frame. I do agree that some might find the ENO induced change in BB height and associated frame angle changes disconcerting -- but as small changes in seat to pedal position doesn't bother some people, I haven't had a problem with the ENO run in the extreme "up" and "down" positions.
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    I use an EBB to run a Rohloff, and it's propensity to squeak, slip, and bind the bearings of bottom brackets has turned me off. After much effort, I've solved my problems with that bike ... but I can't imagine using one again....
    I think the problem depends on the make of the BB.

    I have a Phil Wood EBB that does not slip or creak.

    My prior experience was on a tandem and the EBB on that was dire.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    why continue...why?
    'Cause there are still a lot of folks out there (such as moi) who are going to prefer your hub to messing with any EBB. I've been long thinking about doing one or the other for my SS with vertical drop outs; perusing this thread has convinced me that your hub is the better alternative for me. Besides, somebody still needs to make and sell your freewheels and cranksets....

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsdoable
    This eccentric BB (an the trickstuff version) also allows you to install an IGH (ie: Rohloff or Alfine) without an external tensioner, something the Eno can't do.
    I asked ernesto and WI directly about a fixed hub with ISO mounts and was told flat NO. Imagine asking them for an Alfine quality IGH.
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

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  59. #59
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    The eccentric ENO would be fantastic on a fixed gear bike that has no rear brake. A clean singlespeed install with a front brake would suffice.

    "The great attraction of both systems is that they allow for an almost unlimited choice of frames which can be adapted to use with fixed, singlespeed, or internally geared hubs." - YES!
    Creative Producer, Will of the Sun, Platform Pedal Shootout 1M+ views WoS

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    Handling? c'mon. How much offset is/was there?
    the way he has mentioned it, it almost sounds like the eno hub has turned his dirtbike into a hill climber with a 10 foot swing arm

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    I asked ernesto and WI directly about a fixed hub with ISO mounts and was told flat NO. Imagine asking them for an Alfine quality IGH.
    well, we can't stop the machines to make a one off. Why mess around? We already have a solution for this particular niche. A solution that works for many people.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickerman1
    the way he has mentioned it, it almost sounds like the eno hub has turned his dirtbike into a hill climber with a 10 foot swing arm
    I know. Sounds like a Patagonia sweater-wearin' perfectionist.

  63. #63
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    reading comprehension 101

    Quote Originally Posted by wickerman1
    the way he has mentioned it, it almost sounds like the eno hub has turned his dirtbike into a hill climber with a 10 foot swing arm
    read it again, friend.

    what i said was that on a ROAD BIKE it changed the geometry negatively with the gearing i an running and i had to use a half link to bring the axle out of the eccentric curve. the reason i mentioned that on mtbr is that it is on a cross bike that i ride off road.

    i further went on to clearly state that this would probably not be noticed on a mountain bike.

    wasn't slamming the product, i'm STILL USING it on that bike with the half link despite the fact that it is buggering up the inside of the dropouts. was just mentioning a minor caveat to using the product in certain applications.

    as always, it's best to read twice before posting once.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    read it again, friend.

    what i said was that on a ROAD BIKE it changed the geometry negatively with the gearing i an running and i had to use a half link to bring the axle out of the eccentric curve. the reason i mentioned that on mtbr is that it is on a cross bike that i ride off road.

    i further went on to clearly state that this would probably not be noticed on a mountain bike.

    wasn't slamming the product, i'm STILL USING it on that bike with the half link despite the fact that it is buggering up the inside of the dropouts. was just mentioning a minor caveat to using the product in certain applications.

    as always, it's best to read twice before posting once.
    Or reading once before posting twice.
    Let's all relax. Pretend we're at a nice campfire drinking coffee n' stuff over the bike ride or snowshoe talk. Its snowing like the bejeesus right now.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    Let's all relax.
    says the guy who got his knickers all wadded up and started with personal insults because i mentioned having to use a half link when using his pet product on certain applications.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    I know. Sounds like a Patagonia sweater-wearin' perfectionist.
    I know Yvon Chouinard personally, and they have one of the best companies around, in terms of employee and environmental support. Google it and you will find how they pay everyone equally, men, women, disabled; how they have a daycare in-house with no time restrictions spent there; how you can leave for an environmental internship or education sabbatical and be guaranteed a job when you return. Ad nauseum.....

    I was part of the hippie / rock climber / wilderness / skier counter culture in the 70's that spawned Great Pacific Iron Works / Patagonia. I'm proud that some of the dreams of my generation were realized.

    I'm really saddened that you choose to make slurs against others; with your heritage, I would have thought you would be better than that.
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

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  67. #67
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    Can't we all get along?

    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    I know Yvon Chouinard personally, and they have one of the best companies around, in terms of employee and environmental support. Google it and you will find how they pay everyone equally, men, women, disabled; how they have a daycare in-house with no time restrictions spent there; how you can leave for an environmental internship or education sabbatical and be guaranteed a job when you return. Ad nauseum.....

    I was part of the hippie / rock climber / wilderness / skier counter culture in the 70's that spawned Great Pacific Iron Works / Patagonia. I'm proud that some of the dreams of my generation were realized.

    I'm really saddened that you choose to make slurs against others; with your heritage, I would have thought you would be better than that.
    Can we keep the thread from getting unpleasant?

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by forwardcomponents
    Can we keep the thread from getting unpleasant?
    The eBB / Sliding Dropout discussions have a habit of getting nasty, not sure why. And you're introducing another eBB....

  69. #69
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    i still find SS forum posters more civil than others.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    I know Yvon Chouinard personally, and they have one of the best companies around, in terms of employee and environmental support. Google it and you will find how they pay everyone equally, men, women, disabled; how they have a daycare in-house with no time restrictions spent there; how you can leave for an environmental internship or education sabbatical and be guaranteed a job when you return. Ad nauseum.....

    I was part of the hippie / rock climber / wilderness / skier counter culture in the 70's that spawned Great Pacific Iron Works / Patagonia. I'm proud that some of the dreams of my generation were realized.

    I'm really saddened that you choose to make slurs against others; with your heritage, I would have thought you would be better than that.
    I was born in the 70's, so that culture means nothing to me - dad was a working class hero, who became a microbrewmeister for Modelo, then for others...If you drink Sierra Nevada, you're also drinkin' my dad's ideas.

    Yeah, it was either Patagonia or Sonoma, from Kohls. Maybe even Levi's. Who cares. Settle down n' have a mentos. Let's stop with the pi$$ing matches and vaginal sand.
    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hvk06sKSIJI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hvk06sKSIJI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by forwardcomponents
    Can we keep the thread from getting unpleasant?
    eh, this will always happen with insults, differences of opinions, name calling, ironing shirts, snow, yogurt, Walkman, iPod, Mall-Wart, Target, Costco, REI, TV, hybrid cars, gasoline totin' pickup truck mullet-a-trons, Obama vs Rambo, Single Speed, Milkshakes being better than yours, dog vs cat lovers, construction workers vs Frosty the Snowman, Pollo Loco vs KFC vs Church's Chicken.

    Here, let's all be happy:
    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fXKJSJVohX8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fXKJSJVohX8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

  72. #72
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    And something else to alleviate crabs: http://professionalbadass.blogspot.com/

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    on a ROAD BIKE it changed the geometry negatively...
    what are ya riding, mg, one of those 1971 spoon brazed Bob Jackson's with 75* HA and 60mm BB drop? Those never handled right, most were't aligned straight. Should've used a Raleigh International, you'd never be able to tell

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by pursuiter
    what are ya riding
    2006 Bianchi Cross Concept
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    2006 Bianchi Cross Concept
    Does the rear wheel almost touch the seat tube using ENO?

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    I know Yvon Chouinard personally, and they have one of the best companies around, in terms of employee and environmental support. Google it and you will find how they pay everyone equally, men, women, disabled; how they have a daycare in-house with no time restrictions spent there; how you can leave for an environmental internship or education sabbatical and be guaranteed a job when you return. Ad nauseum.....

    I was part of the hippie / rock climber / wilderness / skier counter culture in the 70's that spawned Great Pacific Iron Works / Patagonia. I'm proud that some of the dreams of my generation were realized.

    I'm really saddened that you choose to make slurs against others; with your heritage, I would have thought you would be better than that.
    Is it painful to live with skin that thin?

    That is a slur against the company and Chouinard? Whatever. So every single person who buys a Patagonia something uses it for its intended purpose, and 100% to its potential, eh? Yeah, some do, but we all know the type of folks Ernesto's comment was directed towards. Don't pretend clueless-ness on that point. And WTF does his comment have anything to do with his heritage? Perhaps he somehow meant the retired Dread Pirate Roberts, the one who retired to Patagonia, eh?

    FWIW, I agree. A very cool company. I have a fleece pullover from them nearing 20 years old that is still super comfortable and kicking strong.

    Back to topic: I really, really want one of these bottom brackets!
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrublover
    Is it painful to live with skin that thin?

    That is a slur against the company and Chouinard? Whatever. So every single person who buys a Patagonia something uses it for its intended purpose, and 100% to its potential, eh? Yeah, some do, but we all know the type of folks Ernesto's comment was directed towards. Don't pretend clueless-ness on that point. And WTF does his comment have anything to do with his heritage? Perhaps he somehow meant the retired Dread Pirate Roberts, the one who retired to Patagonia, eh?

    FWIW, I agree. A very cool company. I have a fleece pullover from them nearing 20 years old that is still super comfortable and kicking strong.

    Back to topic: I really, really want one of these bottom brackets!
    I saw past his heritage comment. I'm Spanish-Arabian by ancestry, but I was born in TX. Maybe I'm just some other American labeled by my ancestry? who knows. Anyway, Carhartt is where the soul is.

    What a hippie. Maybe he's never been in the FFA, castrated pigs for a grade, and saw past people's "heritage."

    To be honest, I'd like to give one of those bottom brackets a try too.

  78. #78
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    now, we will see more boone cogs on vertical drops.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    Does the rear wheel almost touch the seat tube using ENO?
    that is not what i said the issue was.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    that is not what i said the issue was.
    but does the rear wheel almost touch the seat tube using ENO?

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    ICarhartt is where the soul is.

    What a hippie. Maybe he's never been in the FFA, castrated pigs for a grade, and saw past people's "heritage."
    Grew up in Idaho, worked on ranches, castrated calves with my teeth at 12, 'cause the cowboys said that is how you do it (I was a gullible kid). Was not in the FFA, since my dad worked at hydroelectric dams, and not a ranch, but all my friends had ranches, so I got plenty dirty there. Wore Carhart frequently, still do. Ever "pulled" a calf?

    My point on heritage was when you were attacked and almost left MTBR some time back; I was one of many who voted for you to stay, even after you dumped the HBFK and I could not get a T-shirt. Call me a hippie if it pleases you, but I will not call anyone here names; I do not do that.
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    Grew up in Idaho, worked on ranches, castrated calves with my teeth at 12, 'cause the cowboys said that is how you do it (I was a gullible kid). Was not in the FFA, since my dad worked at hydroelectric dams, and not a ranch, but all my friends had ranches, so I got plenty dirty there. Wore Carhart frequently, still do. Ever "pulled" a calf?

    My point on heritage was when you were attacked and almost left MTBR some time back; I was one of many who voted for you to stay, even after you dumped the HBFK and I could not get a T-shirt. Call me a hippie if it pleases you, but I will not call anyone here names; I do not do that.
    Lets all be friends. Beers n' hugs to everyone.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus
    Grew up in Idaho, worked on ranches, castrated calves with my teeth at 12, 'cause the cowboys said that is how you do it (I was a gullible kid). Was not in the FFA, since my dad worked at hydroelectric dams, and not a ranch, but all my friends had ranches, so I got plenty dirty there. Wore Carhart frequently, still do. Ever "pulled" a calf?

    My point on heritage was when you were attacked and almost left MTBR some time back; I was one of many who voted for you to stay, even after you dumped the HBFK and I could not get a T-shirt. Call me a hippie if it pleases you, but I will not call anyone here names; I do not do that.
    ok ok ok. I've said baaad things here and I deeply apologize.

  84. #84
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    Okay I don't understand how this works...



    Each of these little chingaderos threads into the bottom bracket shell, right?

    But then what? How do my cranks then get onto those chingaderos?

    Here's my shiz...


  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishcreek
    this ebb replaces the outboard bearings of hollowtech 2 cranks. so those cranks you posted will not work.
    d'oh!

    y'know, I really did read homeboy's blog...it's just that all this stuff is so Greek to me that I didn't even catch that part.

    Thanks!

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by w00t!
    Each of these little chingaderos threads into the bottom bracket shell, right?

    But then what? How do my cranks then get onto those chingaderos?

    Here's my shiz...

    Quote Originally Posted by forwardcomponents
    It is an eccentric bottom bracket that will fit any bicycle frame with a 68mm bottom bracket shell using standard 1.37"x24tpi English threads, It is for outboard bearing systems using Hollowtech 2 compatible cranks.
    this ebb replaces the outboard bearings of hollowtech 2 cranks. so those cranks you posted will not work.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by w00t!
    d'oh!

    y'know, I really did read homeboy's blog...it's just that all this stuff is so Greek to me that I didn't even catch that part.

    Thanks!
    It's funny when two posts get flip-flopped like some sort of hipster rear wheel.

  88. #88
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    Edit: nevermind.

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    New question here. Ok I like the idea, sooooooo....

    Well Down here in Austalia this seems a pretty nifty ideas seen this stuff at Eurobike/Interbike thanks to the web so how can i get one?
    29er you just know when ur ready!!!!

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    Forwardcomponents, have you had a chance to use your product with different gear combos? Do you think their will be unusable gear combinations in light of the reduced throw relative to a normal ebb shell? I have one bike with an ebb, a zion, and I did a recent swap to a different gear combo. In that process I could not find a position that worked without adding a half-link. It could have been me, but I tried two different chain lengths. A bonus though was that the 32-18 combo with half link ended up sitting in almost the same place as the 32-16.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowridemo
    Forwardcomponents, have you had a chance to use your product with different gear combos? Do you think their will be unusable gear combinations in light of the reduced throw relative to a normal ebb shell? I have one bike with an ebb, a zion, and I did a recent swap to a different gear combo. In that process I could not find a position that worked without adding a half-link. It could have been me, but I tried two different chain lengths. A bonus though was that the 32-18 combo with half link ended up sitting in almost the same place as the 32-16.
    I can't see how any gear combination would not work. With the right length of chain and the possible use of a half link, no combination is incompatible.

  92. #92
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    Eta?

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by syburgh
    Eta?
    First week of January, give or take a few days. We will begin accepting orders and processing payments on January the 2nd. The products will be shipped within a week of payment. The demand has been strong, with interest from all over the world.

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    Straight or crooked?

    Quote Originally Posted by themanmonkey
    forwardcomponents my big question is how do you keep the two sides of the BB perfectly in phase? Even 1-degree of them out of alignment can cause premature wear on the bearings and wear spots on the spindle.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea and have been waiting for a few years for folks to make an Ex-EBB. When I had thoughts along these lines I designed a tool to adjust both sides at the same time and a connecting rod through the inside of the shell. Both of those created problems themselves so nothing rose above designs and sketches.
    forwardcomponents -- I'm curious about this as well. How does everything stay in phase?

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by skunkwerkscycles
    forwardcomponents -- I'm curious about this as well. How does everything stay in phase?
    The phase alignment process is similar to one used successfully in the Trickstuff Exzentriker. It depends on a visual alignment of the two adjustment discs. There is no way to mechanically fix the two discs together through the bottom bracket shell. There is simply no room.

    The alignment process is basically as follows. The drive side disc is locked into place once the correct chain tension is found. It is a simple matter of adjusting the non drive side disc to be in phase with the drive side disc. The visual alignment process requires one to find the two extremes of phase error on the non drive side disc, and from them the center is derived. The center is then aligned with a reference mark on the adjusting disc.
    It is simple and effective. We are considering a simple tool to lock the two sides mechanically together during adjustment, but so far it does not seem necesary.

  96. #96
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    Looks great.
    One crowded hour of glorious life is worth an age without a name.

  97. #97
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    ok, i've missed how to order one of these things
    please advise this blind fixed gear mountain biker
    bob
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    The more I know the more I know I don't know.
    Let the bike ride the trail, you ride the bike.
    Look where you want to go, not where you don't want to go.

  98. #98
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    Does anyone have one of these yet?

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    Last edited by itsdoable; 02-08-2009 at 08:06 PM.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsdoable
    any reviews? worth the try? looks good.
    everything sucks but my vacuum cleaner.

  101. #101
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    "What a hippie."
    That's a good one. Hippie. I always thought those were the guys who engineered social change? Well, his good pal might have helped but other than that- sounds like those laurels might be pressed a bit flat by now.
    These days most folks just dress like hippie- sorta hippie lite. All the fanfare and glamor, none of the initiative for change.

    Back to the last line- I too am interested in those BBs. So much so that I'd consider putting one on a bike w/ sliders just to keep that R wheel tucked up snug to the BB.
    And man does it open options for the cross bike SS.
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  102. #102
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    Hey Forward guys,

    I just had a fondle of one of your eccentrics finally (At Cyclic Cycles, Newmarket here in Melbourne), and I must say, nicely made!

    However, is there any way you can make the damn things a bit lighter? There's a lot of stainless there that appears to be doing bugger all.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Hey Forward guys,

    I just had a fondle of one of your eccentrics finally (At Cyclic Cycles, Newmarket here in Melbourne), and I must say, nicely made!

    However, is there any way you can make the damn things a bit lighter? There's a lot of stainless there that appears to be doing bugger all.
    The EBB can be made lighter. The result will be an increase in cost. We are considering two options. One is a titanium version of the threaded cups. This will not be inexpensive, as you can imagine. The other option is to remove material from around the set screw holes. We are going to modify and test one to see how much weight is saved by material removal. It will not be a dramatic difference, since the rest of the threaded cup will still be stainless steel.

    There is probably no way that the threaded cups will be made from aluminum, as durability is our main concern. Perhaps a light duty commuter version can be made from aluminum, but not one for serious usage. For now, the stainless steel version is what works, and we don't want to fix what isn't broken.

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    ..is there any way you can make the damn things a bit lighter?
    I'll be early in line to try our one of their machined down cups - heck, I'll even try a Ti version if they make one. But the current cups work well, and the weight is low and central. It probably helps that I'm not a weight weenie.

    There's always the Exzentricker if you want lighter. Cheap / Light / Strong : pick 2.

    In the mean time, I'll torture the ones I have for a while.



  105. #105
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    Back from a week in N Georgia / Tennessee & NC. Here's some Tsali mud...

    The real test was on the trip back - severe thunder storms turned the chain brown with rust during the 16hr drive.
    Oddly enough, it doesn't look that different from the previous pictures, after a local ride...

  106. #106
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    More pics of this bike please. Does the Rohloff have a coaster brake or something?

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    There's a disc brake in the rear. Just look at the picture.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryker
    More pics of this bike please. Does the Rohloff have a coaster brake or something?
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=501073
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=310109

    Haro Sonix with a Rohloff 14-speed hub with a disc brake. The torque arm is for the gears, and can be replaced with a less obtrusive version.

  109. #109
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    According to forwardcomponents.blogspot.com these were to become available on ebay on 2009/8/10 which was yesterday. I've searched ebay a few times but am unable to find anything. Any hints/clues on how I can pick one of these up? Thanks!

  110. #110
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    Yeah I need one of these too!

  111. #111
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    3/23/2010: I bought an FC EBB and it works great- only I found out my old retro steel frame has a stress fracture at a weld and I'm not going to get it fixed. If anyone is interested, hit me up. Latest version with all the spacers, etc.

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